S9E7 – The 100th Episode!

The 100th Episode!

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is the hundredth episode!

[clapping sound effects]

Dr. Val: Ooh, woo!! Wow!! What an accomplishment!

Andrew: A hundred episodes. I can't even, I can't even wrap my mind around it.

Dr. Val: I think you should, because, um, you have done an amazing job leading this effort. It feels like decades now. How long has it been friend?

Andrew: Almost four and a half years. Yeah, it was November of 2018 that the first three episodes came out. And yeah, here we are. So we thought we would take a little time to, to reflect on that, and this episode will definitely end up being a little more, uh, a little more naval gazey and self congratulatory than most of them. But there's gonna be some meat in it too, listeners. So if you've been here a long time, we're gonna be reflecting on past episodes that I'm sure you will recognize. If you're new here, welcome. I think this will give you a good sense of kind of the vibe of, uh, of Val, our conversations and of some of the past things that have happened and what we're hoping to happen in the future. So there's enough in it to stick around.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I think it's important that we mark these moments and to do some time to reflect and learn, because I am sure you have changed significantly by this episode in the years that have passed, and I'm looking forward to hearing about it and having our listeners hear about that as well.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, me too.

Dr. Val: And I, I want the listeners to know your, your first gift for your 100th episode was me arriving to recording early. [Andrew laughs] You like that?

Andrew: They said it couldn't be done.

Dr. Val: That's right, folks. I am usually trying to get here as quickly as possible. My mic's never plugged in. My headphones are never on.

Andrew: You were ready to go.

Dr. Val: Andrew has been incredibly patient. That's right, that's right, that's right.

Andrew: Yep. So, so yeah. Let's, uh, let's, let's dive in with a little bit of kind of history and I think we're gonna, we're gonna turn the tables a little bit and you can interview me.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I get to interview you. That's right. All right. So, so take me back to 2018. Um, what was going through your mind? Why this podcast? Why that moment?

Andrew: Well to set the scene a little bit, Val, this is what it sounded like.

[The following is a clip from the first episode]

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Courtney: And I'm Courtney, a White mom from Los Angeles.

Andrew: And we are gonna be your hosts for the Integrated Schools podcast. Conversations about race, privilege…

Courtney: …integration, parenting, school choices, you know, all that.

Andrew: Yeah, we're super excited about this project. We got a bunch of great episodes and we can't wait to share 'em with you, but to be honest, we are also a bit nervous.

Courtney: Yep… [whispered]

Andrew: Yeah. Uh, these are pretty intense topics and discussions that aren't always easy, but we know we need to have 'em. We know we need to share 'em. So, Courtney, why are we doing a podcast?

Courtney: I don't really know. [laughs] No, I think, you know, look, in doing the work around school integration, the ways that White families show up to integrating spaces and to schools and choice and thinking about this is kind of the same everywhere. So I guess my hope with this podcast is that it's a place where we can have the conversations in a bigger way, right?

To give people who are thinking about this a way to engage with the topics and hear how other people have wrestled with them. But yeah, I'm super nervous. They're all, there's so many different places to step wrong here, you know? And I just feel incredibly vulnerable and I'm not gonna get everything right. I don't know. Why do you care about this, Andrew?

Andrew: So, I grew up in a pretty diverse neighborhood in Denver, and I went to what, I guess we would now call an integrating school. It was probably at the time, 90 to 95% students of color. Pretty high concentration of students living in poverty. And to this day, that experience was sort of, I look on it as one of the most formative of my life.

It certainly wasn't always easy, but I'm really grateful for everything that I learned there about being a human being, I guess. Um, so I always wanted a similar experience for my kids. And, uh, we moved back to Denver a couple of years ago and our kids are now in the, actually the same school that I went to, which, um, in a sign of how little progress we've made as a society on integration, looks very similar to the way it looked when I went there.

But you know, even, even with sort of my personal experience with it and the value that I placed on that, it was really hard to push back against the sort of common narrative around how people with privilege, who get to make choices about school, how they should go about making those choices.

We bought a house in a school boundary, um, it's not the boundary for the school that my kids go to now. The school that I went to. It's in the boundary, we're sort of guaranteed a seat at a very highly sought after school. It's got high ratings, it's got good test scores, there's very little poverty and the student population really looks nothing like the rest of the city.

And we paid a pretty high premium on our house to be able to live in that boundary. You know, I think that that school is really a symptom of a system that is pretty similar everywhere you go in the country. That allows White people to hoard limited resources.

Courtney: Yep.

Andrew: That concentrates wealth. And by doing that allows concentrations of poverty to exist at other schools in ways that we know make it much harder to equitably serve all of our kids. And I think it contributes to a system that really denies an equal education to many of our most marginalized communities.I mean, I think in many ways it's a symptom of a system that is sort of fundamentally at odds with our democracy.

And so I guess, you know, my hope for this podcast is that it can be a small step towards rewriting that narrative to give people a different way to think about schools, to think about parenting, to think about these choices. You know, I look at the state of racial tension in our country, and we know it didn't develop overnight. We know we're not gonna fix it overnight.

Courtney: Yeah.

Andrew: But it seems to me like it's… the morally responsible thing to do is to stop contributing to it when you, whenever you can.

Courtney: Right.

Andrew: And then to do whatever we can in some small way to start chipping away at the problem. And so I guess if this podcast can play some role in changing that narrative, then I think it's worth doing. And I think it's worth putting ourselves out there in a sort of vulnerable way and having these hard conversations.

Courtney: That's nice. That's a good way of saying it.

Andrew: Thanks. What about you? Why, like, why does Integrated Schools exist? Why did you start it? Why do you care?

Courtney: When my kids who are now in middle and high school, when they were little, none of the White and/or privileged parents I knew were even considering any of the local schools. Like not even stepping foot in them to then say no. Like it just wasn't even on the list of consideration. So, you know, long story, super short, we sent our kids to a local school and did a lot of things wrong.

Andrew: Yeah.

Courtney: Right? I didn't know what I didn't know. And yet there are things that you should know when you show up in an integrating school. So if I were doing this all over again, there's just so much that I would've done really differently. So the hope with this organization is to talk with and as parents who are making these choices, right? Like why we should send our kids to integrating schools and how we can better show up and, and not, you know, take over.

[End of clip from the first episode]

Andrew: So that was sort of where we started. Right. But the piece that I didn't mention in that moment, I think, was that I had recently heard the Nikole Hannah-Jones, This American Life podcast, The Problem We All Live With.

Dr. Val: Mmmmhmmm, Oh, I cried, I cried through that podcast. Yeah.

Andrew: Oh, I mean, I was, I was totally radicalized in listening to that podcast. I had not reckoned with the way that this was still a problem. It had not been presented to me as a problem by anybody until she did. And I said, well, okay, like I have to do something different. And so I connected with Integrated Schools. I came to one of our book clubs, and I met Courtney Mykytyn, who founded the organization and, uh, we, you know, hung out on book club a bit, and she was like, we should connect afterwards. We got on a phone call and, so many people who have been with this organization for a long time have the exact same story, which is, we scheduled a half hour phone call and it turned into two and a half hours, and next thing you knew, I was like, okay, like, what, what do you need? I'm in whatever it is. I'm like, going with you wherever we're going.

And so in March of 2018, I happened to be in LA for work, and we got together, we went to some crappy bar in Burbank or something, and just chatting and chatting and, she had had this idea that so often the conversations that she was having were the same conversations over and over again, one by one with people for many hours on the phone.

And it moved people and it changed people, but it's not scalable. I was like, well, how do we, how do we like, do this in a way that other people can engage? And like maybe we should try to make a podcast. She was like, can, do you know how to make a podcast? I was like, yeah, I mean, I'm an audio engineer by, by training, so… [starts laughing]

Dr. Val: Yeah… I’ve done a few things. [jokingly]

Andrew: I can probably figure that part out. Um, and, and then like, let's try to figure out what the content's gonna be. And so, you know, over the course of the next six months or so, we recorded a bunch of episodes and interviews and conversations and then just kind of put it out into the world in the beginning of November and said, let's see if anybody cares. Let's see if anybody wants to listen to this.

I mean, the conversation at the time felt very different than it does now, and we didn't know if anybody would tune in and, you know, we had 25 downloads and then 50 downloads and then, you know, 150. I was like, wow. I just saw an email today as I've been preparing for this episode, going back through old emails and stuff where we were like, congratulating each other on 125 downloads in one day.

Dr. Val: Nice.

Andrew: Um, and how exciting that was. And then people, people were into it. They kept sharing it and, and, and listening. And so we kept making episodes and, uh, here we are a hundred episodes later.

Dr. Val: Can you talk a little bit about the power of dialogue? And what you've learned as a result of being in dialogue with so many different people over these past 100 episodes?

Andrew: Yeah. Uh, this is one of those I like still sometimes can't believe that I get to do. This was Courtney's gift from the very beginning, was bringing people into conversation, making them feel at ease and comfortable without giving them a pass. You know, calling people out and pushing them and moving them all while kind of holding them in this like, space of love. And, I think that that came through from the beginning. And I think it's something we've tried to hold onto ever since, is this, you know, like, it's a, it's a comfortable conversation. We're not looking for your PowerPoint presentation, you know, trying to like, be in dialogue with the full humanity of the people. You know, we always start with why do you care? Like, why are you here? What brought you here? What is this? Because to me, I think it connects people to their hearts and it, and it gets people sort of ready to share in a way that's a little less clinical and a little less academic and a little more, you know, from the heart. And I think that we can think about these things all we want, but that, that what's really needed, that if we're really gonna change the world, right? I mean, we're here to change the world. Like, not to get too grandiose or anything…

Dr. Val: I mean, we are…

Andrew: We’re here to change the world, right? And, we're not gonna think our way to a better world. We have to feel our way there. And I think that being in conversation with somebody, um, you know, sharing even a virtual space with somebody, when we're tuned into each other's humanity, just like brings a richness to the conversation that I, that I hope has resonated for people. And, um, you know, made people feel like their hearts can also change.

Dr. Val: Yeah. So you obviously weren't the same, Andrew…

Andrew: I was not…

Dr. Val: …back at episode one that you are now. Can you talk a little bit about what you recognize in your own growth?

Andrew: Oh man. I, that it's like, hard for me to, I feel like everything. I used to talk about this with Courtney all the time, which is… Like this is one of the things that's terrifying about putting on a podcast is that like, you don't get to update it.

Dr. Val: Yeah. It is, or the, or the written, or the written word even. You're like, man, I can't believe I thought that idea back then.

Andrew: Yeah, you don’t ever get to update it. And I feel like, you know, if, if in three months from now, six months from now, a year from now, I mean, in some ways if in a day from now my thinking on something hasn't shifted in some way, then I'm not learning and I'm not growing. So like to, to pick out one or two ways that I have changed or grown feels really hard because I feel like I. Cause I feel like in so many ways, a totally different person. And so maybe the biggest change is like, I feel more comfortable with that. With the idea that, I don't have to like, cling with all my might to the version of me that used to exist. That, you know what I mean? That like it, that it's good to change, that it's good to grow, that it's good to kind of, to rethink, to, you know, broaden our horizons and our perspectives and, uh, and to be uncomfortable. Like it's good to, to sit in discomfort. I think I, I had a much, I had a much stronger desire in the early days of the podcast to like get it right, to figure out like…

Dr. Val: I can absolutely [laughing] see that even in our first year together, that was really, really, really important. Um, yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. As, as with all these things, living in the nuance is always hard. I think that, like, I feel an obligation to, to you, to the audience, to everybody who's part of Integrated Schools, to like do a good job, right? To not phone it in. I feel like a, a deep obligation, particularly when I'm in conversations with people I have no business being in conversations with, you know, Representative Bobby Scott, Heather McGhee, um, coming up, coming up after the break, we've got a conversation with doctors Linda and Kia Darling-Hammond, and, um, you know, these, these places where I just feel like I like, How do, how did I end up in this spot? I feel like a deep obligation to do that. So like, you know, trying to kind of take that seriously without then becoming rigid or, or feeling like I need to kind of stick to my ideological positions just on principle.

Dr. Val: Uh, you are incredibly studious. I want our listeners to know. And, and you take great care in preparing for each one of these episodes by studying and reading and questioning what you believe and trying to make sure you are focused in on what the audience needs to hear, and you don't shy away from these really difficult conversations.

Andrew: Well, thank you for that. You know, I try everyday to not take this for granted.

Dr. Val: So if I'm honest, I've never listened to a hundred episodes of anything [both laugh] What would you wanna say to our most veteran, diehard listeners, the ones who have been here since episode one? What is it that you want them to hear the most at this 100th episode defining moment?

Andrew: See, Val, I think, I think in one of our very early conversations, you asked if you were gonna get me to cry on the podcast, and, and this might… [laughing]

Dr. Val: I did. I did.

Andrew: This might be where you do it. Um, because yeah, I mean, I, I am just like filled with such deep gratitude that, that people listen, that they keep listening, that they keep coming back, that they, you know, send emails, they send voice memos. I think the moments that I feel the most gratitude and the most, um, affirmed is, is when I hear people talk about the podcast, like it's also theirs.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: When people are like, oh, I shared this, I shared it with this person, I shared it with this person, and then we had a conversation and the hope was always to really empower people to take the conversations and, and expand on them and keep having them and, you know, move them in new directions and, um, you know, hear about a podcast discussion group that's going on in some town that I didn't even know people were listening to the podcast in. Or, you know, in conversation with somebody who says something and I'm like, ah, that sounds familiar. And then they're like, oh yeah, yeah, no, I heard that. I heard that on the podcast. I'm like, oh, this is amazing. You know, the ways that I think people have taken it into their, into their hearts and kind of made it their own and, and feel a sense of ownership over it. Um, yeah. I'm just, I'm so grateful for that.

Dr. Val: You know, you talking and almost crying makes me almost wanna cry, um, at the fact that people are listening to us and the podcast to make decisions for and about the greatest thing that they have to offer to the world, which is their young people.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And that is huge, right? Like that is not to be taken lightly. Right? And so, to listeners who might never call in or may, may never leave a review, we deeply appreciate your trust in us, um, and your commitment to the work and the life that we are trying to encourage you to live. As difficult as it might be, um, we hope that you do feel a sense of community here, even if that community is not readily available in your face to face space. Um, and, and, yeah, yeah. We are filled with gratitude. And feel your vibes, your good vibes all the time.

Andrew: Absolutely. Which I think actually sets up a great voice memo that maybe we can share.

Dr. Val: Yeah, let's hear it.

Andrew: Rebecca called in and, uh, this is what she had to say.

Rebecca: Hi, Andrew and Val. My name's Rebecca. I'm a White mom from New Jersey. I just wanted to say thank you so much for all of the work that you guys have done at Integrated Schools over the years. I remember when I put my son in preschool at a Title One school that everyone told me that he could go to preschool for, but after that I'd have to, you know, really think about what I wanted to do or even move. I Googled, what if your son is the only White kid in their class? And I found work by Courtney E Martin and the Integrated Schools community through that Google search. And I've had the privilege of talking to people on the phone, who've made similar choices to me, which I consider to be integral to who I am as a person and what my values are, and something I feel is very lonely at times. I feel like I have found friendship and community through your podcast and the action steps that you guys are so good at inspiring our community to take. So I just wanted to thank you for the work that you guys continue to do, and, um, I genuinely feel blessed to have you and your work in my life.

Dr. Val: Oh, that's what's up, homie. And so, you know, I, I'm thinking about what you said about Courtney being in, in conversation with her and the relationship that you all built, and then, um, just how so much of this is, is built on relationships. And I think the fact that someone can feel connected…

Andrew: Yeah,

Dr. Val: …even though, you know, we haven't had a chance to talk to them live yet. Um, that's really amazing.

Andrew: Yeah. yeah. yeah. That's another one of those. I just like, the hope and the dream was always to be able to create that space and, and that it, that it worked for one person at least, feels like really, really gratifying. For sure.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew: Because I think there is that, you know, I think this was, this was another one of Courtney's insights was just that, that need for community. I think, you know, we talked about it last time with JPB Gerald as well, right? Is like to step out of the narrative, to step out of the stream of racism, to step out of the, the master narrative that, that JPB Gerald talks about is, it can be lonely. And like you said, it's like with your most precious resource, your kids. And so it can feel like I must be doing the wrong thing. And, and you know, I think Integrated Schools as an organization really came out of Courtney's desire to create community. To say like, no, actually it's okay. Like it's okay to do this. It's actually right to do this. You can step out of the flow of this. You can make a decision that feels counter-cultural, and here's a group of people to kind of support you through that and, and hold you in that. Because, because we need that. We need to, we need to feel like we belong. And choices about parenting are certainly one of the places where it's easy to start to feel like you don't belong.

Dr. Val: Yeah. My pastor, when I used to go to church, once said, um, you can count the number of seeds in an apple, but not the number of apples in a seed. And I know…

Andrew: Mmmm....

Dr. Val: Right, right, right. Like that seed that you all planted back in 2018. No clue. Right? I know, I know, I

Andrew: Now you’re really gonna get me.

Dr. Val: I know. And it's growing and it's flourishing. [Andrew takes a deep breath] And like the generational change that can happen based on the work that you have committed to, and this is the part where I'm giving you your flowers, okay? You are getting your flowers tonight. Um, I think it can't be understated. And so even if you never know, if they never call in. Right. Just know that that seed is doing something in somebody. And I'm, I'm just, I'm proud to know you, friend. I'm proud to know you.

Andrew: Thank you, Val.

Dr. Val: Yeah. [laughter]

Andrew: You did it. Mission accomplished. [laughing] Jerk.

Dr. Val: Yes. Yes. I mean, it's true. I know. It's true. It's true. It's true.

Andrew: Yeah. Uh, yeah, I mean , it wasn't my idea. Um, and I, uh. You know, so for listeners who are, who are new, um, we've been talking about Courtney Mykytyn who founded the organization, and she was tragically killed in, right at the end of 2019, December 30th, 2019. Struck by a car outside of her house. And, you know, again, in kind of preparing for today and going back through old emails and, you know, looking at stuff, there was a real question. I think there were a lot of us who were committed to making sure the organization continued and none of us had any idea how to do that. Um, and so, you know, I think in, in the wake of that really tragic loss, it brought a number of people really close together, you know, as, as tragedy will do, as trauma will do. And, you know, kind of activated a lot of people around the organization and there was just such a hole in the middle of the organization because this was her vision. This was her, her dream, this was her baby, you know, and kind of everything flowed through her. And, coming up on three years later, um, you know, the, the, the pain is still fresh. Um, there's still daily times where I want to text her or call her, be like, wait, what should we do about this? What's the right option here?

And then I, I sort of sit in this like, weird space because I think, you know, had she not died, I don't, I don't think we add a third cohost and then there would be no Val. And, and it's been such a gift to have you here and such a, a just like deep honor and enriched my life in so many ways to have, to have added you to the mix. And then when I think about that, like you and Courtney never got to know each other.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I just get angry, you know, I just get mad at the universe for that.

Dr. Val: Hmm. Y'all, you know, when you were just sharing the dates, you all, it was quick.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: It was quick. You all did not have a lot of time together. And, you know, we were, Courtney and I were this close to meeting, like this, close to meeting, had, uh, seeing some of your work on Twitter, which is where I was actively organizing educators around issues of racial justice and schooling.

Andrew: You can shout out, Clear the Air. You, you can shout it out.

Dr. Val: Clear the Air, #ClearTheAir. We're gonna have our first face to face gathering in 2023. Um, and a colleague said, Hey, you gotta meet the folks from Integrated Schools. And so I sent a dm, I don't know who was answering social media at the time.

Andrew: Yeah, it would've been Courtney.

Dr. Val: Would it really. And um, I reached out and I was like, Hey, I would love to connect. Cause I think I see some intersections between our work. And um, I think I did get a reply like, Hey, yeah, let's get in touch. And um, and then several weeks later I got a reply saying that Courtney had passed and, um, it was shocking, deeply shocking. And, you know, I don't know how the, I don't know how the universe operates at all, but it's my hope that she gave me the thumbs up…

Andrew: For sure. For sure.

Dr. Val: …to be here. Because at the time I imagined our two organizations doing some really cool things together. What I did not imagine is for me to be in conversation with you every week, you know, on this podcast. Like, that wasn't even a possibility. And so although we never met, I do, um, wanna thank Courtney for her vision, for her seeds.

Andrew: I mean, you, you like sent a Twitter DM and got a Twitter DM back and still felt like some kind of connection and draw to her. I mean, I think there the number of people who in the wake of her death, you know, sort of came out and were, were like, you know, I talked to her once, or I exchanged an email with her, whatever, but still really like, felt this, this sort of profound sense of loss, um, was just so, so powerful and moving, uh, in that, in that time.

Dr. Val: I was devastated for you all. I didn't know any of you all, and I was devastated for you all. Absolutely devastated. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. So, we got this lovely reflection from Albert. So Albert was the last interview we did before she died. It was called Gifts We Didn't Expect: Family, Faith and Integration. We had been looking for somebody to talk about how Faith had called them to integration work. So she, you know, we exchanged a couple emails with him and then had this conversation on the podcast and that was sort of it. But, um, he, he captured something I think in this, that I wanna share.

Albert: I had the deep pleasure of getting to know Courtney through the Integrated Schools podcast. In the conversations I had with her leading up to it, I was struck by just how close she felt. It felt like, uh, finding someone who understood exactly what my experience was and just felt a deep kinship with her. Uh, deep kinship in terms of both the love we have for our children and the love that we have for a larger community that goes beyond our children. Um, uh, struck by her humility, her sense of humor, just the, the sense of how, a lot of what she had done was because she wanted to feel a connection with other people, um, to see if there were other people who felt similarly about both, having a deep, care for her own children, but also, having this suspicion that, when we just simply care about our own children, that it actually has a distorting effect on the equity that's available to other children.

I was terribly shocked to hear of her passing. And, uh, and struck by just what a deep loss it is to the community that we've been trying to create around folks who want to, um, make our families bigger, um, so that they include a few more people. I was amazed by just how gracious she was, how welcoming, and kind. How brilliant she was in being able to voice things in a way that really cut to the sense of responsibility that we have towards one another. And her fearlessness in being able to, uh, uh, speak to something that is, uh, one of the most taboo things on the, uh, uh, when we get together with our friends that we don't talk about or we don't question, uh, one another's choices. She was brave, and uh, I just feel like her spirit continues to be present with us just in this, this sense of that she offered us an example of how to do it, lovingly, fearlessly, and to take chances and to take risks.

What I appreciate about her was that she was always learning, always, um, moving forward, learning and then, uh, trying not to do the same mistakes again. But not being afraid of making mistakes. Because she knew that somehow this, there was this thing that was right out of her reach that she was moving towards, that I resonated with her that even in the midst of, um, screwing up, that it was still the right direction. I will deeply miss her. Her voice, and her presence. It was, uh, just really reassuring to know that she was out there fighting the good fight, trying to make space for us to make choices around family that wasn't just for our own kids. Um, she was a model. She was somebody I looked up to. And I'm grateful for the time that we were able to share together. I'm gonna miss you, Courtney. Um, grateful for you.

Andrew: Albert…

Dr. Val: Whew. [deep sigh]

Andrew: Uh, he got me good.

Dr. Val: Yeah. So in the midst of deep grieving, um, you all found a way to not only sustain the organization, but to help it to flourish and grow in places that you all probably didn't anticipate right away either when you started this work.

Andrew: For sure. I think you being here on the podcast right now speaks to that, right? Like you reached out, you were like, Hey, this seems cool, but do I fit or not? And,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: …um, we can all speculate about what Courtney would've said or would've thought or would've wanted, but, um, the thing that I'm most certain about is that she never wanted to stand still. That she never wanted to get caught up in just self-reflection that it was always important to go and do and change and try things and make mistakes and then try something else. And, this kind of humility, but not paralysis.

You were not alone in feeling like, is this for me or not? And, certainly I would not have expected, in December of 2019 that we would've kind of grown in this particular way. And it felt very important and hard and, you know, uncertain, but also worth kind of trying and seeing what it would mean to, you know, try to model cross racial conversations every week, and to try to broaden the conversations we were having and, and try to find the common themes that, that were bringing different people with different backgrounds and different privileges into the conversation. What were the things that would resonate and be similar for us, and what things would be different? And um, and here you are.

Dr. Val: And, you know, I've only heard wonderful things about Courtney and I, I believe wholeheartedly that for her it was about the community, whatever the community needed. And so I trust that, she would've been really excited to see and to be a part of, you know, the evolution of the work.

Andrew: For sure. For sure.

Dr. Val: She's applauding. She's applauding.

Andrew: Yeah, I think so. Um, I mean, yeah, certainly the number of people who download this show every week would've blown her away. And there are now, you know, 30 chapters around the country and the Facebook group has grown, and the social media has grown. And, the very last episode that she recorded, and we have to talk about something other than Courtney's death, cuz this is not gonna be a fun episode at all. Um, but the last episode that she and I recorded was, um, called S5E4 – All I Want for Christmas is 3.5%. And this is how she explained that.

[Clip from the last episode with Courtney]

Courtney: So Erica Chenoweth out of Harvard University did a big meta study of places around the globe in which civil resistance brought about enduring political change. And what she found was that there is a critical tipping point of 3.5%. That when 3.5% of the population was actively involved, change happened. And it lasted.

Andrew: 3.5% of a country, of a population.

Courtney: Right.

Andrew: But once that number of people are actively involved then change becomes inevitable or at least possible.

Courtney: That's right. And once you have that 3.5%, there's still a lot of work to do.

Andrew:Right.

Courtney: But that 3.5% is key.

Andrew: The visibility of 3.5% is enough to pull in other people who are maybe sort of sitting on the fence, who are maybe feeling ambiguous about it, they see a committed 3.5%, and that is where you have a sort of tipping point. And then the societal structures begin to change.

Courtney: Momentum breeds momentum.

[end of clip]

Dr. Val: That's not a lot of y'all. Y'all can, y'all can, y'all can pull that off.

Andrew: So that was the thing. And, and, and you know, and for her, for sure, for me, and I know I've talked to a lot of people since then for whom that was a real… cuz you start down conversations around race, you start down conversations around schools and you bump into the people who are, who are unmovable or at least seem unmovable. And it can feel totally disheartening. Then if you're like, well actually, like out of those hundred people I talked to, I only need like four of them

Dr. Val: That's it. That's totally doable. I can totally do that.

Andrew: I think the ways in which, you know, we, we sort of are constantly pushing closer and closer to that 3.5% feels really powerful and um, and exciting. And how you get there is always changing. And I think, you know, who makes up that 3.5% feels like maybe it's not the same people who maybe we had originally envisioned. And one of the many gifts of bringing you in is thinking about like, well, White people have a lot of work to do. We have, we have a lot of work to do here and we don't have to do it alone.

Dr. Val: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Thank you for that friend. I know the grief is always there and, I feel like I read this… that it means that you loved, well, you know.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. No, I, it's, um, yeah, it's a, it's a good, it's a good friend to carry around.

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: Not always easy. Sometimes that friend makes you cry.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: But it's, it's good to have. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I think, you know, that was, that was nearly three years ago now, which is kind of hard for me to wrap my mind around as well. And then the past year and a half, you know, since you joined, has just been such a totally different experience. And so wonderful in so many similar ways. My guess is that you can't really do this in a meaningful way, without some real, true, meaningful shared admiration and a real friendship, because otherwise it's not safe to, you know, to really kind of bring your full self to the conversation. And, I'm still sort of shocked at how quickly you just, just like, jumped in with both feet. Um, you know, ….

Dr. Val: I was like, all right, let's go…

Andrew: JPB Gerald talked about writing his book with his whole chest, and I feel like you joined the podcast with your whole chest. You like, came in, brought your full humanity into this space right away. And, your brilliance and your wit and your compassion and your heart and all that, just sort of, all of you showed up right from the beginning. And yeah, it's another one of those places where I could have… can't... can't believe my good fortune, you know, um, to get, to be, to get, to be in this space and to, you know, join the conversation. And, um, and I think it takes a degree of self-confidence without arrogance or something to be able to kind of do that and show up in this space because you were stepping into this whole new thing and, um, I was just, yeah, continue to be so impressed and grateful for you doing it.

Dr. Val: Well, I…

Andrew: Now it’s time for your flowers.

Dr. Val: Oh, thank you. I'm supporting the very important work that you all have started. I am trying to build bridges wherever it's possible. Cuz we have lots of ground to cover…. [laughs]

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: …and it feels like a contribution that I am very happy to make. And, I can't explain it either, but Courtney's death and I know we have tried to move on, but it, it, it, struck me and it struck me in a way where I genuinely meant if there is anything that I could do ever to support the work that you all are doing, I would willingly do it and wholeheartedly do it. And you have made this a place where I could wholeheartedly show up and be, and tell you I don't like the way that sounds, or I don't like the way that feels, or, you know…

Andrew: Or you just put it on your face. You don’t even need to say it [both start laughing] At this point, I just see it on your face.

Dr. Val: That's right. I'm just like, oh, dude. But you made this a place where I could do that. And you welcomed that and, I trust you completely in these conversations and I am so glad to have them with you weekly. I hope we are modeling what it takes, you know, and…

Andrew: At least one path there. One version of it, you know?

Dr. Val: Yeah, yeah. And it's, it's doable. It's only 3.5%. Y'all. Come on.

Andrew: [both laughing] Right? Yeah.

Dr. Val: Don’t give up. Like, we're right there. We gotta be at 1.2%.

Andrew: Yeah. Oh yeah. For sure. We're halfway.

Dr. Val: We gotta be at 1.2%.

Andrew: Yeah. Depends on which day you read the news.

Dr. Val: [laughing] That's right.

Andrew: So what is, what is, what's been some of your favorite moments? Thinking back…

Dr. Val: I think my favorite moments are always tied to, and I think this happens with us pretty consistently, where we forget that we are recording…

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Dr. Val: …and we're just really putting it out there, just as authentically as it's showing up for us. And for me, those are signs, like you mentioned earlier, that our relationship is authentic. It's real. I feel like I can disagree with you and say, no, I need to push back on that. So I value those moments a lot. I, uh, I value your honesty about White folks. I do, I do. That helps me. That helps me just understand, you know, kind of just, more than anything, it helps me understand the socialization that has happened for White folks and it just continues to help me develop empathy for folks who are really trying to do some deep rooted change.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And we get to talk to some amazing people.

Andrew: That is, yeah.

Dr. Val: We get to talk to some amazing [Andrew echoes ‘amazing] people. So I, you know, the fact that you all outside of me, outside of anything before I got here, have convinced people to get onto a podcast and talk to us… That's huge. And I am incredibly thankful for the groundwork that was laid so that I could benefit from being part of these conversations as well.

Andrew: Yeah. Certainly the network of people that you know… you don’t have bad friends, and so every time you’re like, “You gotta talk to this person,”, I’m like “Great let’s do it,” cuz it always turns out great. We had Dr. Faircloth, you know, our kind of way overdue conversation on Indigenous education that we tried to do in Brown V Board and couldn't pull it off. And then she did such a lovely job with that.

Dr. Val: Oh, so beautiful.

Andrew: We finally got to talk about PTAs with Brittany Murray.

Dr. Val: Rockstars.

Andrew: You know, the unpacking the racial hierarchy in schools with Dr. Chantal Hailey was amazing. It was one of the most downloaded episodes, um, of that season.

Dr. Val: Oh my gosh. Got me all shook up about my kids.

Andrew: Oh, right. Yeah. And then, you know, I think about the, the parent conversations too, and Catherine, um, I mean, we have these unbelievable, unbelievable kind of experts and people with, you know…

Dr. Val: Hands down.

Andrew: …PhDs and stuff, but then you have the people who are, who are parents, um, and just bringing their parent experience to the conversation and, and so moving. And I think that's the, you know, kind of going back to the things that I have learned or the ways that I've grown, I think the, the power in, and again, why we try to start out with, you know, kind of who are you and why do you care is because everybody has something to teach us.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: If you can figure out, you know, who they are and why they care. That's sort of, at the end of the day, that's the, that's like the ultimate question I think is like, who are you really? And why do you care? And now tell me like all the things that you've learned in trying to care like this and, you know, in trying to be who you are, but like, if I know who you are and why you care, then there's, there's so much richness that I can pull out of it, whether you are, you know, have, have studied the you know, Tomas Monarez who's got all this like data around,

Dr. Val: That was neat. That was a neat one. Yes. Yeah.

Andrew: That super nerdy and kind of brainy and, and, and very much like around the like analytics and the data, but also got to like see a bit of his heart and his humanity and why he cares. And then, yeah, you know, Catherine, I think about Sarah and Anna and kind of their stories of moving, that was one of the very first episodes we did with you and, and them kind of bringing their full selves to that.

Dr. Val: Oh my gosh. I cut up on my first episode.

Andrew: I mean, that was when we knew like, this is gonna be real. Yeah.

Dr. Val: Cuz I cut up on my first episode. And you all let me cut up.

Andrew: Yes.

Dr. Val: And we were able to have an authentic conversation.

Andrew: I mean, when I, when I think back to like moments of your time here, like individual moments, there was a moment at the end of that episode where we were really grappling with that. Like, what does it mean to do enough, right? Like Sarah had said, like, is it enough and you that like, hit you in a way that was, that, didn't land. And, and I was like, I've I say the same thing all the time. And, I just want to play a bit of it.

[clip from Val’s second episode]

Dr. Val: To be able to be in a place where I can ask a question like, how hard do I wanna work today? You know? How hard do I wanna swim upstream is…

Andrew: How much do I want to protect my son from dying?

Dr. Val: Like, That's my option, right? So, yeah, I think, I mean, I understand it. I un… I logically understand the question, right? I have a choice to not have to make this as difficult as it is, and I, I, I would personally love to choose a life where it's not as difficult as it is.

Andrew:Right.

Dr. Val: And it, as, as a Black woman, it still kind of hurt to hear that. I'm like, oh, okay. All right. Well, hmm.

Andrew: Yeah. So what… Yeah, I don't like how we get ourselves out. because no amount of my commitment to racial justice puts my kids at risk.

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: In the same way that your kids are at risk.

Dr. Val: Right. I think one way that we have to do it is that we have to be mirrors for one another, like being able to have this conversation with you and saying like, this really hurt for this reason. It seems like completely missing the point I think is important, you know, just for us to be each other's reflection. Cuz we, we don't know, right? So in the conversation, right, she's talking to another White woman, it probably doesn't land in the same way it lands with me, you know?

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And I think we need these spaces of honesty. And some of these conversations are gonna hurt me. They're gonna hurt you. And we have to be committed to still having them. And it might mean like after this I'm like, I need a break. You know, I need to go get a Shirley Temple [Andrew laughs] and like, chill out. Currently we have some…

Andrew: You did not just say a Shirley Temple.

Dr. Val: And then we, we come back again and, and try again and, I think that conversation will happen between our kids, right? So how do we, as the adults model, like what this looks like? You know, our, our, it's, it's gonna happen.

Andrew: Well, I mean, I would like for it to happen, you know? I feel like how do we like, set our kids up, to be able to do it, to be able to step away if they need to and come back to it to be able to actually engage in it. But they've gotta be able to see it in the first place. And I feel like, how do I prepare my kids if they can’t see it themselves initially. At least be able to hear it when you bring it up and be like, okay, let me hear that, let me like, sit with that. Let me feel that in my body. Okay. That doesn't feel good. But that doesn't mean that I need to flee. That doesn't mean that I need to, you know, write you off or that doesn't mean that like, something is broken. That means that we are like, doing the work.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I don't know if this is a comedy story or a tragic story, but my son was in kindergarten and we were approaching February, and we wanted to prepare him for the conversation around either MLK, Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, right… top three, right? We knew one of those was gonna happen and we needed to give him some context, and I was struggling with how to bring this up because I could speak for Black parents. We also desperately want to keep our child's innocence. Like having to sit down and talk about racism is nothing that we wanna do. It feels unfair that it happens right out the gate. I hate doing it. I don't wanna do it. And so we're, we're driving, and I know this is coming up and I can't think of another way to start the conversation, so I just yell in the backseat, “What does it mean to be Black in America?” And my kids are like, my kids five, five and three. Five and three. And he is like, what?

You know, I wouldn't recommend necessarily that parenting style, but what it did is it, it forced a conversation to open up. And so I'm wondering how many White parents say, “what does it mean to be White in America?” To start that critical conversation, that critical lens, because it means something. Right? And so not being shy about what that means, I think helps them to develop the eye. And to start to see things. But if we never talk about it they're not gonna see it until they're forced to.

Andrew: And here we are at the same conundrum, Val, right? Like, how much is enough, right? Like, I also want to maintain my kids' innocence, but like I could maintain their innocence. Many people who show up at Integrated Schools are like, I didn't think about race one second until I was in college.So like, again, you don't have a choice and I do have a choice. I wish that our, that wasn't the world we lived in, but, but I do, and so, yeah, I mean, I think we have to, as White parents, not view it as an option. Not view it as a choice and, and, and have those conversations with our kids. This is the work. This is what we're, we're trying to do, is like lean into brave conversations. Is sit in that because… cuz I mean, clearly what she said made you uncomfortable. And when you told me that it made you uncomfortable and I realized I would've said the exact same thing that made me uncomfortable. But we were able to just like, sit in it and be in it and, and, and work through that. And I think that like, the comfort with discomfort thing is so important.

[end of clip]

Dr. Val: You all, let me cut all the way up that first episode. I was a guest. I would have had my mud on your rug.

Andrew: Our rug looks so much better after…

Dr. Val: I just said exactly what I felt and they were so gracious. Thank you both.

Andrew: Yes. Those sort of moments of getting to see someone's full humanity. Certainly one of my other favorite episodes was Greg and Carol from our Brown V Board series called, I Hope They Hear It in Our Voices. Two Black parents who had, you know, moved their kids into the “good schools” that were almost all White and just, you know, very vulnerably and honestly sharing the harm that had come from that and their questioning and their concerns about are they doing the right thing for their kids? And you know, anytime somebody kind of brings their full self, I think we're all better for it.

Dr. Val: And I, you know, I think Heather McGhee's episode really helps us stay connected to the power of this work and knowing that there is joy in this organizing together that absolutely needs to be elevated. Um, and we need to continue to tell those stories as well.

Andrew: Yeah. It's been, it's been amazing. I, you know, as I said, I've been sort of going back through, looking at old episodes and emailing old guests and, um, just, you know, to, to think about the, the perspectives that we've had, the people who've been willing to come on and share. I think about Chris Stewart in episode five, Interview with a Skeptic, which was just amazing.

Vicky and The Saviors, which kind of set us up Catherine and the Saviors. And Vicky continues to be involved in the organization as just like, such a gift to have, her perspective all the time. You know, Dr. David Kirkland, the 14th episode, I mean, that's a conversation that, that probably not a day goes by, that some part of it doesn't come back to me or I don't feel like I'm like channeling something that he said into thinking how, how I do the work there. Noliwe Rooks, who wrote Cutting School and part of our advisory board who is just like, you know, similar to Carol Anderson, just like a joy to speak to, even as she is dropping like really heavy truths.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: So what, so, so now what? I mean we, we've done a hundred.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: What are, what's the next hundred? What do you hope we can do in the next hundred episodes?

Dr. Val: Surprise everybody. I believe in going out on top. So this is it. [both start laughing] No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I think for the next 100 episodes, I would like to continue to get voices of our listeners on the show. It's not just about us in dialogue, but hearing from people who are making these decisions on the daily, like the things that they are grappling with, those feel like really important things to keep front and center. So I wanna encourage everyone to continue to leave us voice memos, because your voice matters, your perspective matters. What's happening to you matters. And we would love to grapple with what's really important to you.

Andrew: Yeah. On that, on that front, we've got one more voice memo to share. Um, that came in for this one I'm gonna play. This is from Cheryl.

Cheryl: I was so moved when I first found Integrated Schools. The story of the founder, Courtney Mykytyn is heartbreaking, but she is still with us. In spirit, it would seem. I am taking more courage and hope as I look for times to show up. In the next 100 episodes, I would like to hear and see more about systems. What are they exactly and how do we change them? And intersections. For me, the most urgent intersection is with the question, what makes a quality education? What are its features? Things get complicated at intersections, but if any group can handle complications, Integrated Schools can.

Andrew: Thank you, Cheryl. That's so lovely.

Dr. Val: Cheryl, that was fantastic.

Andrew: Fantastic. You're in luck because, uh, as we come out of the holiday break, and we come back in January with new episodes, we will dig into that topic of what is a quality education. In an episode I'm very excited about.

Dr. Val: Something that, um, Cheryl started with in her message that made me think about having active hope. And I, I'm reading this text, Active Hope: How to Face the Mess We’re in with Unexpected Resilience and Creative Power by Joanna Macy and Chris Johnstone. The word hope has two different meanings. The first involves hopefulness, believing our preferred outcome is reasonably likely to happen. If we require this kind of hope before we commit ourselves to an action, our response gets blocked in areas where we don't rate our chances too high. The second meaning is about desire. It is this kind of hope that starts our journey knowing what we hope for and what we'd like or love to take place. It's what we do with this hope that really makes the difference.

And so I think this podcast is an act of active hope because the world that we're trying to create isn't here yet, right? But we know that there are steps that each of us can take. And so what I really appreciated about Cheryl's comments is that she is looking for these times, right? When before they may have passed her by. And I hope that other people are inspired to look for these opportunities to do, to create the world that we're trying to create for one another.

Andrew: Mmmm. Yeah. Right. We only need three and a half percent, but that three and a half percent has to show up. That three and a half percent has to speak up. That three and a half percent has to do something and say something and, and advocate for the kind of world that we want. I think pretty early on, in addition to you, um, coming hard on the second episode pretty early on in, in your time here, I believe that we corrected Dr. King, um… [laughing]

Dr. Val: I think we did.

Andrew: So, you know, the moral arc of the universe doesn't bend by itself. Right. That it…

Dr. Val: Oh absolutely not.

Andrew: …it requires all of us to be part of bending it towards justice. And, um, and yeah, it's a project that, that we, we will not see the conclusion of, but we owe it to our kids and to their kids and to all of the apples that can grow from the seed, to do our best.

Dr. Val: We talked a little bit about the future. What, what do you hope to see in the next 100 episodes?

Andrew: Much like, kind of, you know, where was I and where have I grown to is like, I want to continue to grow. I want to continue to be uncomfortable. I want to continue to push myself. I want to not ever get complacent. You know, kind of constantly sitting in this in between space of, of being uncomfortable but not being paralyzed. I think kind of broadly, I would love to do some more. I think about the Between We and They series that we did. I would love to do some more kind of narrative stuff like that, some more storytelling in that way. I wanna revisit some of the, you know, some of the past guests, again, kind of in going back through all these people and, and realizing, you know, like what, what are they up to now? How has their world changed and wanting to kind of reconnect with some of them. Um, and then, yeah, I think finding sort of similar, like you said, finding more ways to incorporate audience voice into the conversation feels like uh, really worthwhile.

Dr. Val: I mean, I would love for the people to tell us that they wanna take our show on the road. If you wanna see this circus live…

Andrew: The live show! I think that’s a reasonable goal for the next hundred episodes. That, that at some point we do a live show. Yeah. Let's do it. Let's do it. If you're ready to bring us out listeners, let us know.

Dr. Val: Let us know. We will happily come to your city and, um, talk.

Andrew: Yes. All of those things that I think, you know, you wanna see that I wanna see a lot of it is about us and the whole team who helps work on this podcast coming together and kind of, you know, continuing to push this along. And we can't leave the hundredth episode without, you know, acknowledging all of the other people who put in time and energy on this from Anna and Courtney who work on our graphics and social media posts and promotion. Darci and Jennifer, who work on our transcripts and the whole team. Allie, and Bridget, and Emily, and Molly, and Sarah, and Susan, who are all, you know, part of kind of the, the, the thinking about this work. So much of this work is around, you know, what, what conversations should we be having? Who should we be talking to? What issues are coming up for people? And, uh, there's just so much thought partnership that goes into making this podcast. I'm really, really grateful for all of those people.

Dr. Val: Absolutely. Thank you all, um, for doing that invisible and very difficult work.

Andrew: Yeah. And then, you know, this work also is not, uh, without its costs. And so I also feel a deep sense of gratitude for all of the people who have joined us on Patreon.

Dr. Val: That's right.

Andrew: Thrown us a few bucks every month. It allows this work to keep happening and we're really grateful for it. So if you have not done that yet, it's the end of the year. Everybody's asking for money. I understand. And if you can, we'd be really grateful. Patreon.com/integratedschools. $3, $5, $10, $20 $50 a month. Whatever you can do. Um, there are perks over there. We do transcripts and facilitation questions and happy hours and, um, all that, or just throw us some money because you think the work is important and you wanna support it.

Dr. Val: Can people do a one time donation if they're interested?

Andrew: If you wanna just do a one time donation, you can go to the website and click on the donate button, and that will allow you to do a one time donation, which we would also be very grateful for.

Dr. Val: Awesome. What's really, really important to us as well is that the conversation doesn't stop between myself and Andrew. And so, in addition to you listening, we want you to share these podcast episodes and talk about them with others. Build your own muscle around engaging in dialogue about these difficult topics. And you'll find that it will get much, much easier even if you bring mud in all over your…

Andrew: That's right.

Dr. Val: …friends’ rug. If you have a moment, write those reviews cuz they matter. I know that we have a review that we would like to share with the good folks.

Andrew: Yes, we've gotten a number of great reviews and we're very grateful for 'em. Ratings and reviews on the podcast apps do help people find the podcast, so we'd be really grateful if you would take just a moment to do that. But I did wanna share this one, um, lovely review from Elvira Mistress of the Dark. I have no idea who she is or where she is, but the review is called Annoyingly Good. And she says, “Every time I listen to an episode, expecting it to be preachy, out of touch and irrelevant, it turns out to be thoughtful and well researched, and I learn a lot. This is deeply annoying.” Five stars.

Dr. Val: That's what's up. We'll take those five stars and reviews just like that.

Andrew: Thank you Elvira, Mistress of the Dark.

Dr. Val: Thank you. Elvira.

Andrew: Well, Val, here we. Year and a half in with you, four and a half, almost years of the podcast, a hundred episodes. It is, uh, it is the honor of a lifetime to be in this with you every week, week in and week out as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time, my friend, here's to turning the page.