S9E5 – Cathryn and the Saviors

S9E5 - Cathryn and the Saviors

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Anna: And I'm Anna, a White mom from Phoenix.

Andrew: And this is Catherine and the Saviors.

Dr. Val: Now, hold up! We had a new person intro themselves here. What is going on, Andrew?

Andrew: Well, we are welcoming back our good friend Anna. Listeners will remember her from past episodes. She was in the intro episode. She's been a guest a number of times and co-hosted with me a couple of times in season five. And she brought us our guest for the conversation today, Catherine, and so we thought she should come and co-host.

Dr. Val: Let's give an applause track for Anna. Woo!!

Andrew: Woo!!

[Applause]

Anna: Hi everybody! It's so nice to be here with all of my favorite people.

Dr. Val: Yeah. It's very good to have you in this space. For sure.

Anna: Thanks for having me!

Andrew: Yeah. So we're gonna talk to Catherine today, who is a friend of Anna's. And the episode's called Catherine and the Saviors, which longtime listeners may remember Vicki and the Saviors, which was, I think, the seventh episode, way back in 2019. And for those who don't recall who haven't been listening that long (you should go back and listen to it), but basically, uh, Vicki's a Mexican mom who was at a school that had a, an arrival of White and privileged families and she talked really openly and honestly about the impact that that had.

And so it seemed fitting here to talk to Catherine, um, about her experience because it was somewhat similar, right Anna?

Anna: Yeah. It was, and Catherine and I met at school where our kids went to school together and she identifies as a, as a low income parent. We're now in different cities and different schools, and we've maintained a close relationship.

And so, as we were talking about whose voices we want to uplift on the podcast, uh, Katherine came to mind, as an example of someone who has thoughts and feelings about the impact of White and privileged people showing up at global majority, non-resource concentrating schools.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And you know, you and I, Andrew, have talked around class for almost every episode. You know, we'll, it'll come up in some way. But, I really do appreciate the opportunity to unpack some, some, I think, pretty hefty things in this episode that leave me feeling, um, both, like, pushed and inspired. Yeah, it was an amazing conversation and I wanna thank you Anna, and Catherine for, like, publicly sharing your friendship with us and allowing us to grow with you all, um, in this process.

Anna: Like, my relationship with Catherine is really symbolic to me of, like, relationships are everything, right? In this work. In my life as a parent. In my life as a community member. Right?

Wanting to live better in my spaces, relationships are everything. And that's where a lot of the joy comes from, in life!

Dr. Val: Agreed. And I think, you know, we can kind of tease up the fact that that's the solution! Alright? So although you haven't heard the episode yet, know that that's a key, that's a key point we wanna emphasize throughout this episode and every episode.

Andrew: For sure. Should we take a listen?

Dr. Val: We should.

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Cathryn: My name is Catherine. I live in Hollywood, California. My pronouns are she/her, and I am Caucasian. And, uh, low income.

Andrew: And you've got a family?

Cathryn: I have three children. My oldest is 32, my youngest is 14. They are mixed race, Latino.

Both of my oldest have children. Uh, my oldest daughter has six children and two stepchildren. The oldest is 15 and the youngest is three.

And um, my daughter Anne Marie, has three children. The youngest is a year old, the oldest is nine.

Andrew: Wow. That’s a lot of grandparenting,

Dr. Val: I know, I was gonna say, my in-laws would love if I produced those kind of numbers.

[Andrew laughs]

Cathryn: Well if, if I had more money and lived in a bigger apartment, it would be amazing. Perfect. But, um, we had to move from a garden apartment where, um, even though it was one bedroom, it was pretty spacious and there was a patio. There was a back door, front door, patio/little garden area. And so the kids, when they would come over, could go outside and play.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Cathryn: They can't do that here.

Dr. Val: Can you talk to us about where you live now?

Cathryn: I live in a building, uh, in Hollywood that is more representative of a, of a tenement from back in the sixties and seventies in, uh, in New York. Um, it's uh, three stories and there are 14 units on each floor. There's an elevator that I was stuck in at one point, and so I, I take the stairs all the time now because you know I only need to experience that one once!

Dr. Val: Not doing that again!

Cathryn: It is owned by slumlords. And, uh, you know, it, it's where we can afford to live.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Who all lives there with you now?

Cathryn: My father, uh, he's elderly. He's 77. Uh, myself, my son (14) and my daughter Anne Marie, her husband and their three kids.

But I also volunteer downtown. Uh, I am a certified, peer support specialist, which is somebody who goes into, uh, the field of, um, rehabilitation, drug addiction, self-help support groups. And I volunteer downtown on Skid Row every Sunday, passing out fresh fruits of vegetables and clothing.

So I don't just sit here and preach. I'm down there and, uh, I, I am giving back to my community.

Andrew: That's amazing. Good for you. Tell us about your kids' schooling.

Cathryn: My son is halfway, half Mexican. And he looks Asian, so he's pretty well-rounded!

[Cathryn and Andrew chuckle]

Andrew: Tick, ticks a lot of boxes.

Cathryn: He does! Uh, he's a pretty likable fellow.

All of them have attended public school, uh, except for at one point I was granted a scholarship.

Andrew: Oh yeah!

Cathryn: This, uh, this company, this radio com– I don't, I don't remember who, but I won a place that they would pay 75% of the tuition, uh, to a private school. And so I thought, “Wow, I won the lottery! I'm gonna put my kids in a private Catholic school where they’ll actually get an education!”

And, um, it was not the gift I had thought it would be.

The majority of the people that attended that school were very, uh, insulated. Uh, everybody knew everybody and they had all been involved in the school for generations.

And so, my two daughters coming in, um, from public school to a well-to-do private school where everybody was involved with each other on some level was very difficult for my daughters. And, um, I took them out after the second year. It was just, it was an experience, a learned experience. It is just something I will never put my children into again.

Dr. Val: Can you talk to us a little bit about your son's school?

Cathryn: Uh, all three of my children attended a neighborhood school and, not a lot of students. Um, there were definitely more students there than there are right now.

And then, I put Joseph in there because I was living with my dad, uh, a few blocks over.

I was very involved at the end of his, uh, career with the, well they, they don't call it the PTA. But, basically it's the PTA. and they hadn't had one of those before 2017. But because of low attendance and wanting to get the community more involved and bring in all of these new kids that were moving into the neighborhood, they set out to open up another forum for parents to be more involved and in, have the school be more inviting.

It was called PAVE. And, it was fundraising. Um, there were meetings, there were parents that wrote grants and, I was the one getting the, um, the fundraisers up and running with the help of other parents.

Figuring out what to do for 'em. Assigning, uh, assignments to the other parents for what to bring. Uh, who's gonna donate, who's gonna purchase, and, uh, things of that nature.

Andrew: I wonder about the, that PAVE. You were really involved, you spent a lot of time with it. I know sometimes at, at some schools, the, like, version of, of being a good community member participant is giving money. Which I'm guessing was not one of the things that you could offer, but you could offer your time. Did that feel like a, was it appreciated? Was it a way for you to be involved and engaged in the school?

Cathryn: Yes! I was able to meet a lot of people that I saw on a daily basis, but didn't know by name. And, uh, I, um, gained a lot of new friends and a different perspective from where I had been initially.

Andrew: Say more about that. What changed?

Cathryn: At first I thought that all of the things that were going on, the whole, um, getting money in and, um, having a parent group and being more involved with the school was a gift. Great! Um, because both of my older children had attended there, the principal that they had, uh, had previously, she didn't allow parents to have any type of interaction in the school with other parents. And then it turned into something different.

Andrew: What did it turn into?

Cathryn: It turned into, uh, a couple of parents coming in and “saving,” uh, the little people.

Andrew: Mmm.

Cathryn: They wanted to take over the conversation, I guess you could say. They were steering it away from the community that that school had been serving for many, many, many years. And start, um, turning it into something that it wasn't.

Um, the majority of the new kids that were starting there, they had just moved to that neighborhood. And at the end of it, you had parents against parents. And the principal and the, uh, the other faculty became mediators between the haves and the have-nots. And it was never supposed to turn into that.

Dr. Val: So I'm really interested in, in this part because as a Black woman coming to this conversation from a big city who attended a racially integrated school, one of the questions that I always had for the Integrated Schools community (and Andrew and I have talked about this), folks who are who are attempting to integrate the school can't do so and pretend like the people who are there don't exist, right? Like, that is not–

Cathryn: Right.

Dr. Val: – how this will operate, because you're trying to build community with me! Like, you're coming into my community. And so, you taking that over, just, it won't work. So, how did you feel like witnessing all of this, given your long history with the school and all of your kids going there? Like, how did you feel as this was happening?

Cathryn: I felt like I was being robbed! Um, I felt like my children and my friends' children and the neighborhood children were all being whitewashed. Um, they were trying to take away the culture and the color and the things that made that neighborhood what it is! The things that attracted them to that neighborhood, what they saw, and how cheap it was to live there.

And then they came in and tried to strip it of everything that they thought was of value to begin with, for them. “Oh, it's a close knit neighborhood. We have the local school. Uh, we're gonna get involved.” And, um, then they became insular. They only conversed with like-minded parents.

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Cathryn: And, uh, one of one of the parents, um, very, very much tried to take over the narrative of everything. And that's where the conflict came in.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Do you think that this parent recognized they were doing that? Or did they think they were, like you mentioned. they quote, tried to come in and “save” the kids. Do you think this parent recognized that they were trying to change the narrative and take over?

Cathryn: Nope.

Dr. Val: They thought they were doing the, the right thing or–?

Cathryn: Oh, yes. Because they thought that their way was the right way, the White way. “And how dare you try and navigate my road.”

Dr. Val: Mmmm!

Cathryn: “This is my road. I'm allowing you on it–

Dr. Val: Mmm!

Cathryn: –and I can kick you off when I feel like it.”

Dr. Val: Mmm! Mmm. So how did, how did the, the, the neighborhood families (families like you) and other people that you had been in community with before, like, how did you all respond when this was going on?

Cathryn: Disgusted. We were all very disgusted. We didn't have a voice to begin with when all of this started, and then he came in and tried to strip us of our voice. And all of these parents work. Mom and dad work, and they took time, valuable time out of their daily life to become part of the community in that school.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Cathryn: And he turned it into a negative. And nobody wants that in their life! And it was just easier to be like, “Why? It's just school and we're not gonna be here forever.”

Dr. Val: Oh that's awful! That's awful.

Andrew: I guess, I, I'm curious about, you said “the haves and the have-nots.” So what was the, kind of, dividing in there? Was it just about, about wealth, about socioeconomic status?

Cathryn: It was about their voice, their wants being more important than the social structure of an already, um, there community.

Andrew: But who's the “they?” Was there something that kind of unified them?

Cathryn: They have. They have.

Dr. Val: They have, like, material wealth? They have houses with yards or, you know–

Cathryn: They have the option to work from home. They have a nice bank account. They own their own home. They have two cars. They're able to give their kids piano lessons. And swimming lessons. And ballet lessons. And all of the things that public school had to offer back in the seventies and the sixties and the fifties. Home ec and woodshop, and all of the extracurriculars that public school kids are no longer allowed to do.

Um, and so the rounding out of the education for public school children became very small. And if you wanted that for your kids, you had to give it yourself. The school was no longer responsible for providing those types of activities for your kids. And so now, where we are socioeconomically, a lot of parents can't afford to do the extracurriculars!

You know, the kids are in school at eight, for eight hours, and then they have to pay for daycare until they get home at seven, eight, nine o'clock at night, depending on your job. There's no money for that stuff. If you're lucky, if you're really lucky, you can afford to put them in the Boys and Girls Club.

Dr. Val: The entering of into the school of the “haves” versus the students that were already there, um do you know how it impacted the students themselves? Like, did your son feel impacted by this? Did you see kids acting differently with one another?

Cathryn: No. When, when kids that are kindergarten, first, second grade, they're, they're very accepting of outsiders, new kids. Uh, it doesn't matter the color of your skin, for 90% of them. Um, you know, as bad as racism is, kids are more accepting of outsiders.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. Did you feel prepared to deal with the “haves” once they showed up?

Cathryn: Yes.

Dr. Val: Yeah. How did you get prepared to do that?

Cathryn: Um, I gave them enough rope so that they could hang themselves.

[Laughter]

Dr. Val: Cause you were trying to make friends! You were trying, you were like, “Wait this is, welcome!”

Cathryn: So, my dad, uh, worked on Larchmont, which is a relatively well-to-do neighborhood. A lot of entertainment people live there, work there. And so, I grew up with the haves! I went to carnivals on Larchmont Boulevard with girls that went to very well-to-do private schools.

A lot of them had the attitude of them being better than, than me. They walked around with, you know, a pocket full of money and a car when they were 16. And, um, I didn't have that. My father did better than a lot of people, but he took care of six people on his income. That's, that's a lot of people. Um,

Andrew: Mmm. Yeah.

Cathryn: At first, I was enamored of these people coming in, and I believed, “Oh wow. The kids will start getting to go on field trips” and um, you know, “There will be, there’ll be after school stuff now,” and things of that nature. And it did not go that way.

Dr. Val: Yeah, what way did it go?

Cathryn: It, it became a control issue.

Dr. Val: Okay.

Cathryn: Anna called them out on their, their, their White privilege, and they did not take it very well. “How dare you. How dare you!” and uh, Anna coming from a White privileged background. “Well, how dare you judge us?” You know, “You have a better house than we do. You're not better than us.” That kind of thing. And Anna was like, “Listen, I know what it is that you're doing–

[Val laughs]

– and it's not okay.” A lot of parents were feeling very alienated.

Dr. Val: How did you meet Anna?

Cathryn: So, I am disabled. And, uh, at that point, uh, Joseph had, had been going to school for a few years, and so I knew the crossing guards, uh, you know? You get to see the same faces day after day after day. You, you kind of get to know each other! And, after dropping Joseph off, I would, I would hang out with, uh, the latest crossing guard that was there for several years, her name was Coco.

And Coco and I would sit on the corner and, you know, talk just about whatever it was that came up. We would just, because she couldn't leave for an hour and a half after school started. And so I would just hang out with her so, you know, win-win! She gets company, I get company. It's a good time.

Anna's daughter had just, uh, began school there and she walked across the street and introduced herself to me. And then, I chewed her ear off for an hour! And she tried to get away from me.

Dr. Val: Nice!

Cathryn: And that was it. I followed her everywhere after that. She was very kind about it.

Dr. Val: You described Anna showing up as a real ally. So, what does it look like to have a real ally in this in this work

Cathryn: “I am not here to give a voice to anything but what you want me to give a voice to. Tell me what to do, and I'll do it. I'm not giving you ideas. You give me ideas. Tell me where to go. Lead me. I'm not here to save you.”

Dr. Val: That’s what’s up.

Cathryn: “I'm here to be your friend and to back you up.”

Andrew: Mm. Yeah. And, and what is the, what, like, what's the, what's the first step there? I, I would imagine that (and, and you know, you, you knew what to expect given, you know, kind of your, your upbringing, and the having spent time with the haves), but there's some expectation that a newly arriving wealthy person, certainly White person, into a global majority school, you know, like you you have to do some trust-building work.

What was your, what was your first impression of Anna at the crosswalk, and how did she kind of win you over?

Cathryn: First impression of Anna was, “I want some of that.” She was very sure of herself. Very put together. I had a very long conversation with her where she just listened to me. I hadn't had that in, in quite a while. Um, and she was really calm, which I admired.

Um, I'm bipolar. I have, uh, mental health issues and, um, talking to Anna, calmed down some of the, uh, static that was in my head. It was, I had a really good time the first time I talked to Anna! Um, she made quite the impression on me. And um, I knew that she was somebody I wanted to be friends with.

Dr. Val: Hmm. I don't know if it means a whole lot but you are very sure yourself and put together here. So, you got that energy from Anna, if you were looking for it. It has transferred and it is coming all out of you.

Cathryn: Yeah, no, I learned from the best!

Andrew: What was your schooling like as you were growing up?

Cathryn: I dropped outta school in the seventh grade. Um, I went to Hancock Park Elementary, uh, which was a wonderful school. And then, I was put into a low income school, which was our neighborhood school. Uh, which is Wilton Place Elementary. And it was horrendous. Uh, to go from teachers that actually cared about you to being in a school where there were over a thousand students and in the grand scheme of things, you didn't matter.

And then through my dad's clients, my mom became involved in Third Street Elementary. And by using a Larchmonts address, uh, she was able to enroll us in that school. And the teachers had a more active part in the education of the kids. I was able to have access to things that I did not have access to at Wilton Place.

Uh, we had the first school computers in la Um, back when Apple first came out. We had carnivals and things of that nature with the PTA. There were murals on the walls. There was, um, a student store. There was after-school care. There was before-school care. It was all of the things that they took away, uh, in the 90s and the early 2000s.

Dr. Val: So, I, I'm, I'm a teacher by trade and so it (and I know this to be true), but it breaks my heart to hear that, um, your own school experience, you know, the teacher quality changed, you know, depending on what school you were in. Can you talk a little bit about the difference that you felt about the teaching in general?

Cathryn: Sure. So, for myself, because I hopped from one school to another, uh, the teachers really didn't get to know me. Um, from kindergarten to second grade, I, I attended Hancock Park. And then for third and fourth, I attended Wilton Place.

And then for fifth and sixth, I attended Third Street Elementary. And so it was, uh, it was almost like a cycle of a washing machine. Um, so good stuff, bad stuff, good stuff.

So, I went to two really good schools and one really sucky school. And the sucky school was in the middle. And unfortunately the sucky school, made it so that I didn't really have such a great experience even with the good schools.

It scarred me. It made learning not fun.

Dr. Val: Yeah! Do you know, do, can you point to, like, was it the way they treated you? Was it the stuff that they wanted you to learn? Like, the curriculum? Like, what made learning not fun there?

Cathryn: The way I was treated. I had a teacher, and she did not like me.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Cathryn: And whenever I did something that wasn't considered okay in her book, I was punished.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Cathryn: I wasn't allowed to go to the bathroom during class hours. And every time I did have to use the bathroom, I had standards. I had to write a hundred times, 150 times, 200 times: “I will not use the bathroom during class hours.”

Dr. Val: Wow! Were you the only student treated this way or was this, like, across the board?

Cathryn: No, it was pretty much me. As, as far as I know. Of course, you know, uh, once you start getting treated like that, that's all you experience. You don't really notice other people. It's, you're in a bubble. You're in a bubble of abuse.

Dr. Val: Right. Yeah. I'm sorry. I’m very sorry.

Andrew: Yeah, that’s rough.

Dr. Val: Yeah And you said that that kind of soured you for school after that?

Cathryn: Yes.

Andrew: It sounds like you, you got to see the kind of multiple facets of the education that our system can provide and, and you know, the places where maybe we're not providing all the resources and then, and then these other places where there, there really is, like, so much that we are giving to kids and so much opportunity that, that we're giving to kids that are, that are really benefiting them.

Cathryn: Yeah. And now the kids that actually benefited from those things are adults and they're, um, gentrifying the, the neighborhoods that were stripped of all of those wonderful things. And they wanna implement them back. But in the process of doing that, they're alienating the, the other parents.

Andrew: Mmm. Yeah, that is, that's such an important point, right? Because I mean, like, what I hear you saying is those those things were actually great, and 'em back might actually be good. But if the idea is “I'm gonna come in and get them back for you” or “I'm gonna pick which of those things is the right next thing to try to get back,” that it's not in, sort of, in community but rather done to community, that that's where the kind of breakdown happens.

Cathryn: Yes! Yeah.

Andrew: I'm wondering, I don’t know, like, do you see a connection between the experiences that you had in your kind of “washing cycle” of schools from good to bad to good, and the ways made you feel about education going forward. Do you see a tie to that for your kids and kind of their own experiences?

Cathryn: Um, for my oldest daughter, uh, it's something similar to mine. I took her out of fifth grade where she was going since kindergarten, all of her friends. And I put her into a place of, um, I can't really find the word. So, I put her into a place where she was the “odd man out” and–

Andrew: Hmm

Cathryn: –pre pubescent, uh, lost all of her friends the last year of school. In a difficult situation with teachers that didn't want her, didn't like her, and made her very aware of it. This teacher who, who basically, uh, abused her, uh, mentally and verbally. Not physically, because I would be in jail if that had happened. But definitely mentally and verbally. Um, she, she stopped my oldest daughter's forward momentum with her education. And it had a profound impact on the rest of her education.

She didn't like school. She didn't like school. Just like me. I hated school. I felt like I was in prison.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I um, I had an experience with my son where he had a teacher (and it, it, and I'm sure you can connect to this), but I remember moments when he was a happy kid going to school, and then he interacted with this teacher, and you could see like the light going out of his eyes. And it's like the most, like, painful thing for a parent to watch. Cuz you see it happening. You're trying with all of your power to, like, stop it from happening.

And, I've talked to a couple people who have said like, “No! I know, I know when my kid dropped out. My kid dropped out, you know, in second grade!” They hadn't, like, officially dropped out, but that is when, like, the disengagement happened. And so, we were privileged enough cuz my husband worked in the district to change schools, and thus get a different teacher. And I know everyone doesn't have that option. So, what, what are some things that you would want to see change structurally to keep what happened to your daughter from happening, um, to any other kid?

Cathryn: Uh, I think that tenure should be abolished. I think that when teachers start abusing their students and nothing happens to them, I think it's wrong. I think it's wrong that they're stripping these children of the joy of learning because they believe that they're better than other people. And that's just my personal experience with other teachers. I understand where tenure comes from. I do. At first it was beneficial to teachers because they couldn't be replaced all the time. But as time goes on, it became more of a control issue. Like, “You can't fire me no matter what I do to these kids.”

Dr. Val: Do you think that the treatment of you and your daughter was related to your class? Your race? Or something else? Like, what do you think?

Cathryn: I have, I have. I have no idea. I don't know. I don't, I was bullied a lot, by teachers and students at that school. So it, yeah, it, uh, It skewed my view on education.

Dr. Val: And, and I'm connecting it to, you know, what you said earlier around the parents who don't see the value of the parents who are already in the community. Right? So if educators are working in low income schools and do not see the inherent value of the students there because of their income, and proceed to treat them in a way that they would never want their own loved ones to be treated. I think that speaks to just us not honoring, you know, the humanity of everybody. And unfortunately that happens a lot along class lines. Right? Um, it's crappy.

Cathryn: It sucks. But as parents, being aware of that, it, it helps us be more prepared, uh, in helping our kids navigate that type of situation. And being involved in the school.

Andrew: Mmm. Yeah. Say more about that.

Cathryn: Being involved in the school, like the PTA or PAVE. Uh, getting to know the teachers on a personal level. Volunteering. Going on field trips. Being part of beautifying the school. Painting murals. New library books, things of that nature. Um, the teachers are more accepting of, of parents. They're, they open up their view, uh, of, of the parents as, as part of their student body as opposed to being separate.

Working with the, the faculty, uh, makes it easier on our kids.

Andrew: Hmm. Yeah. And you see that, like, direct connection. It's almost like there, there's a way in which they show up and there's, there's expectations of who they should be, based on their, their skin color, based on their, you know, perceived class, whatever it is. And that if you can spend the time in the building you can kind of convince the teachers, the administration, the school, to, to look a little deeper. To, you know, open up their view of of who those kids might be.

Cathryn: Yeah.

Dr. Val: When you, when you first got on, on the call, you mentioned that you have nothing to be ashamed of around your income level. And I think that's important for listeners because what we don't want is for people to be like, “Oh we have to pity this woman and people like her.” Like, how do you keep, how do you keep people from having that “savior” mindset, like, that you need to be saved?

Cathryn: My thoughts around being saved.

Dr. Val: Yeah, what are your, what are your thoughts on that?

Cathryn: I'm not, I'm not drowning! Uh, yeah, sometimes the waves get a little bit, uh, overwhelming, but I'm not drowning. I don't need to be saved. I know what I have to do. Sometimes it's just really difficult to do it.

But, it's my life. I'm not asking you to save me. Just be a friend. Listen to me when, when I, when I'm going through something. That's, that's how you show me your friendship. Include me!

Don't pity me. I survived. I'm a survivor.

Dr. Val: Mmm. Mm-hmm.

Cathryn: It made me who I am today. And some people helped along the way, but I swam out of that shit.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. I love it.

So what, what would you wanna say to parents who in their hearts they're like, “I want my kids to go to this public school. I wanna be an active member.” Um, and that they might have more money to do the things that you described around wraparound services. You know, lessons and other experiences. What would you want to say to those parents who are coming to a school like your, your kid's school community that I think would reduce the amount of conflict that happened when the two groups met in your experience?

Cathryn: You don't know everything. You have absolutely no idea what it is that's going on. Follow. Don't try and lead, because you're the minority, not the majority. We, i.e. low income parents, parents of color, parents, uh, kids of color, we're the majority in those schools. You don't have any right to come in and take control of something that you've had nothing to do with until your kid came here. Follow, not lead.

Dr. Val: Preach. What else do we say, Andrew? Like that's how–

Andrew: That’s amazing!

Cathryn: Yeah!

Dr. Val: Anything else you wanna just share with us about how school, school is going for your son and your grandchildren?

Cathryn: Um, so my youngest grandkids go to two global majority, uh, elementary schools. And, uh, they're very comfortable there. My oldest daughter has a lot of impact on what goes on in her children's, uh, schooling. She is very close to the principal, to the, she knows all the teachers. So she knows everybody. She's got a lot of clout.

My other daughter just started her sons down the street (global majority school), is gaining more of a connection with the teachers and the faculty.

My oldest granddaughter goes to a global majority, uh, middle school, and, um, it's pretty low key over there. Everybody knows everybody. They're all getting along. There's not a lot of strife. She really, really likes it.

And Joseph goes to Performing Arts Magnet. Um, he wants to be in the industry and, um, how that was fostered was through programs implemented by movie studios, because even though it's a global majority school, it is literally in the backyard of Paramount Studios.

And so, Paramount hosts these, uh, Halloween things, where all of the kids in the neighborhood schools go over there and see a movie. So yeah, that's how Joseph became interested in that. And, uh, I just, uh, applied, uh, for choices for him to go to the Performing Arts Magnet at Hollywood High.

He has a different education than the rest of my grandkids in that he has music lessons, but he also does commercials and, um, does, um, different types of acting while in theater class.

And instead of just regular everyday English, he has something where they write stories and, uh, doing, uh, movie scripts kind of situation and, uh, things of that nature. So, he's getting a different education, uh, the movie industry, which is really great.

Andrew: That's amazing. And yeah, found something that gets him engaged and makes him feel like he belongs and, like, school is for him and that it is, it is directly speaking to his experience and his interests.

Cathryn: Very much so.

Dr. Val: And every kid deserves that.

Cathryn: Very much so. Which is why when he decided, “Oh, well I wanna go to the neighborhood, uh, middle school.” I was like, yeah, no.

Um, you know, I, I went that route before where, where I allowed my, my two oldest children to hop and skip from one school to another.

I've been down that road. You're gonna, you're gonna stick it through. If you don't want to go to this other school, then we'll discuss it. But my experience has been when you rock the boat, Hmm, 90% of the time you fall out of it, and I don't want that.

Andrew: Hmm. Thank you, Catherine!

Cathryn: You’re very welcome!

Andrew: This has been, this has been a beautiful, beautiful conversation. I'm so grateful. The community, the school. Integrated Schools.

We are all lucky to have you and know you. I can't thank you enough for coming on, for sharing, for opening up your, your world to us. It's a conversation we have been meaning to have for a long time and I'm really glad we got to have it. And, uh, that you were, you were so willing to, to participate so fully. It really means a lot

Cathryn: Thank you! I'm glad to have been here.

Dr. Val: Thank you so much!

-----------------------

Andrew: So Anna, what did you think?

Anna: Yeah, I'm so glad that you talked to Catherine. She's one of my favorite people. And I feel like the relationship that we have has been completely transformational to me.

And there are many times when she and I are together or chatting where I, I wanna capture what she says and share it with people. And so you guys, you both did that and it was great! What was it like for you talking to her?

Dr. Val: I thought she was amazing. We've been having these conversations for over a year now, and always it felt like a voice was missing.

And so, Catherine being generous enough to come onto the show and talk to us about what she's experiencing and being very authentic and very honest about what it means for her to have well-meaning White folks enter the school and the impact of that. So, yeah! I thought she was brilliant. Left me, like, goose-bumpy the whole doggone call. I, I hope to embody all of the good things that, that Catherine embodies.

She mentioned that you were her role model. She was trying to, like, work with what you were working with. But I'm trying to work with what she's working with because it was fantastic.

Anna: Yeah. I, I feel like, uh, I don't wanna make this about me (cause it's not about me) but I feel like I need to come on here and defend myself a little bit, because I feel like she said such wonderful things about me, that felt good to hear and also felt like she's exaggerating!

So I wanna say I made a lot of mistakes. I made mistakes in our friendship. Uh, and she's had the grace to correct me. I’m not an expert. Haven't done it perfect.

But I think about a lot whether or not I can be a moral person and have affluence, wealth, comfort, home ownership. And I think in the past it had guarded me, because in case I can't (and I'm so stuck in what I have that I can't let go), that then my presence in relationships with people that don't have the same things that I have, is harmful and too uncomfortable. Too harmful for them and too uncomfortable for me.

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Anna: And the benefit of Catherine's relationship in my life is that I've gotten to air that really dirty, like, judgment or fear that isn't helpful in building relationship. And so I've gotten to, like, readjust those things and reevaluate the, the whole those things have on my life. Because it's the friendships that make me feel whole and worthy.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Anna: But if I can say “How can I orient myself towards collectivism over individualism, generosity over scarcity mindset. That because I have affluence doesn't mean I'm full or whole alone.” Right?

Even though society says that's the thing, it's not actually the thing. That, like, collectivism and solidarity are the things that will actually make me whole.

Dr. Val: Hmm. That's intriguing cuz I never thought, and I wonder if under resourced people feel like they have a lack of morality because of their lack of resources.

Andrew: I mean, that's certainly the message that society sends, right?

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: It’s like, “Your lack of resources is your personal failing. If you don't have things it's because you have failed.”

Dr. Val: But it sounds like Anna just said the opposite, right? Because I have this!

Andrew: Mm-hmm. Well, yeah, I mean, I think that's, that's like one of the challenges I feel a lot is, like, the, the, the recognition that the things that you have, you did not earn those from scratch. It is not like the, “The house that I own, the life that I live is simply because I worked so hard.” And so, you come to terms with that and then, and then what do you do? I don’t know.

[Laughter]

Dr. Val: I'm like, man, maybe these are the “more problems” that Biggie was talking about!

[Laughter]

Andrew: “Mo Money Mo Problems,” it’s true!

Dr. Val: I'm like, I'm trying to relate! You know, one thing that Catherine brought to the conversation that I think is important for all the listeners to hear. It's like, she is a human with stuff going on, just like every other human who has stuff going on. She's not, like, a charity case. She's not a way to wage guilt.

Anna: Even then I can see very clearly, like, an outsized relationship that I've been conditioned to have by my upbringing, my class structure around me. That like, it is an individualistic, closed-fist world that I came from. And, like, holding that and seeing, “Okay, these are the parts of that that I wanna let go of. This is not serving me or my community. It doesn't feel good. It's a trap.”

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm

Anna: And “these are the parts that I still am, am, am tangled up with, that I'm working on.” But, like, what brings me, um, connection has to do with relationships. But that, I have to be conscious and aware of the power dynamic that exists when I walk into a school. When I enter into a new relationship, right? Acknowledging the funky relationship I've had with money as energy. Acknowledging how I wanna move forward, and then acknowledging that, that relationships don't have to be transactional in the way that I am used to them being. Right?

So for one second I wanna mention this guy, Raj Chetty. He is a part of this Opportunity Insights. He wrote this book, “The Opportunity Atlas,” and he, he's a fascinating guy. I love his work. And his thesis is that cross-class friendships are vital for reducing economic inequality.

And like, I'm not here to save anybody. Nobody needs saving. Right? Like, that is a very true point. Like, my purpose is to be in, in community, live better in my space, be in relationships, but also with the, with all the other stuff happening. I understand how those networks work and being mindful of them.

Dr. Val: And so, my wondering (just for the general audience) is, have the listeners unpack their ideas about what it means to be under-resourced or poor, and how are they showing up with those ideas that they may not have unpacked?

And so, I wanna encourage the listeners to, to think about, like, those ideas that they might have that they're sitting with, that might make them feel like they have to do something different other than show up and talk to Catherine at the crosswalk.

Like, she would have no idea, unless y'all dropped off the kids in a limo!

[Laughter]

Anna: Here's what I wanna say, which is, I don't know if I have thoroughly unpacked. This conversation is enlightening. I feel both embarrassed, like, “God, why am I making such a big deal out of this?” But then also, somebody asked my daughter in class one day if she was rich. “Are you rich!?” And I was like, how do I not overemphasize something that shouldn't be a thing in an economy where it is a thing?

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Anna: And it, and it is in my, like, I don't know. We don't have food insecurity. I don't know. We have savings. I don't know. We're paying a mortgage down. Our rent doesn't go up. I don't know.

In the White culture where I grew up, you also didn't talk about it.

Dr. Val: Right.

Anna: Very confusing, right? To be like, who's, who gets a new car for their 16th birthday? And who has a place in Hawaii? And then it's like, “Oh, but don't talk about how much money you have.” And, and part of me is like, as a woman, I have, I have opinions on the patriarchy's influence on that. Like, “Let me show you, but I'm not gonna tell you my secrets or what I actually have or don't have.”

Dr. Val: Yeah!

Andrew: But not really. Right? Like, “I'm not gonna say it cuz that would be, like, distasteful. But I'm gonna show you through the things that I provide.” You know, I mean, Catherine talked about the ways that we don't really do, like, a fully rounded education anymore. That those things are now all signs of class. And I think this is, to me this is the thing that I found so powerful, (and that I continue to find so powerful about Anna, your relationship with Catherine) is that, the, the initial like, Hey, let's just talk is, is, you know, you can do that with anybody. You're a parent at my school. But pretty quickly, you come up against very different life experiences. When you are in multi-class spaces is like, you know, what are we gonna talk about? The first easy things to talk about, “Oh, you know, what are you doing for spring break? Oh, we're going to Hawaii.”

“Oh, we're–” you know, and these, these kind of, like, class differences start to come in. And, and I think I have certainly felt the inclination in those moments, where in, in a cross-class conversation to be like, “Ooh, I don't, this makes me uncomfortable. I just don't wanna talk about it.” It's easier to just not try to invest in this friendship.

Dr. Val: Is there, is there shame in that when you realize that you have different life experiences?

Andrew: I think there is. I mean, I think it's one of the appeals of the, like, “self-made man” trope, right? Is that if you did it all yourself, you don't have to actually grapple with the structural things that set you up to have that success, to have that wealth.

And I think that the recognition that it wasn't all just you brings some degree of like, you know, sort of like a, like, you have to question your worthiness of it. Do I deserve this?

There, there's like a societal message that the fact that I have this affluence and you don't is an indication of our worth. Right? Society says “you're worth more if you have more.” And, and I don't believe that, but how do I, like, get through the kind of initial awkward phases of a, of a cross-class friendship to get to the point where we can kind of acknowledge that? Where we can, I mean, I think there, there's similar things that happen in cross-racial relationships. But I, but I think we have even, I think something Shayla Griffin said way back when, our, like, class consciousness is even worse race consciousness in this country.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Cause I'm thinking like, would you feel the same way if our, our context instead of class was, like, ableism or ability, right? If you're talking to someone who was disabled and you realize that you have different lived experiences, do you feel that same sort of shame? And like, “Oh, I don't wanna talk about this?” Or is it because the class is related to, like, material things that you have, that it feels different or challenging, or scary, or something that you wanna avoid?

Anna: I, I mean, I think if we take out money and put in ability, right? The school where Catherine's kids and my kids attended together was one of the only schools in our district for kids who are visually impaired. I remember having such discomfort around, like, just how abled my child was. And add the resources on top of that.

Like, so I guess it, it's a muddy, yucky sandwich. So I feel like in some ways it's similar, but I think it's different too.

Andrew: To, to me, the di, the difference is the societal messages we have about, about, like, blame and about value. Like, there's a societal, I mean, not, not that we are accepting of, of disability–

Anna: I was gonna say, there’s a societal message in there, certainly.

Andrew: –in any meaningful way! There's all sorts of messages about that. But I think there is, like, at least a kind of baked-in, an understanding that that is not a choice.

And I think we–

Dr. Val: Mmm!

Andrew: –don't have on a societal level there's still the message that poverty is a choice. There's still a message that not having resources is, is a, a personal failure. And I don't think people view, you know, blindness as a personal failure. I think there's all sorts of ways that we still have, you know, problematic mindsets about disability.

But I don't think it's the, it, it has the same, like, blame mentality that we have around–

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Andrew: –poverty and, and class, I think.

Dr. Val: I… probably disagree. So!

Andrew: So yeah, say more!

Dr. Val: But, well, uh, and I think I probably disagree because of just my own experience with my hypertension. So I have hypertension. I thought that if I just ate right, exercised enough, then I wouldn't need the medicine because it was like a fault of mine. Or choices that I made. that impacted, my heart. And it took me several years to, like, get those ideas even to a place where I could talk about them publicly. Right?

And now I share, I share that early on with people who have been diagnosed with something like hypertension pretty early. You're wonderful in your whole and you might need an aid to live, you know, and that's okay. But I thought I could fix it. I thought that it was something that I did to cause this thing.

So I do think like the, the message is the, the same, in terms of, “This is your fault” or, you know, “You should have eaten better as a pregnant person” or even like fertility issues, you know? There's lots of blame around that as well. Right? So I do think it's, it's similar, and I'm wondering, like, how much we think we can change a system or help, like, impacts how much shame we internalize. Right?

Anna: What you're saying is how much agency we perceive to have about outcomes impacts the shame we feel about it.

Dr. Val: Yes.

Anna: So “I could make different choices in my life, and if I made those choices, I would feel less shame about my socioeconomic status,” whatever.

Dr. Val: Yeah, yeah.

Anna: So the next question for me is where can I find agency? Right? And what are the things I can do? Because I do think shame disconnects us from others in community. We hide. We go to different schools. We live in different neighborhoods and we say, “Oh, it's too, we don't have enough in common,” or whatever.

And I don't think that's really true cuz Cat and I have a lot in common.

Andrew: But you, you had to, you had to get to that. You know what I mean? You had to find that. I feel like that's the, that's the piece that I keep coming up against. And I think you're totally right. Like, the reason that we live in separate places is because, like, the fear of coming to terms with, you know, I mean there's, there's a way in which we talked about the suburbs last time, right? Like the, the suburbs give you the opportunity to live with people who are all in similar kind of socioeconomic status from you, which means you don't have to actually confront every day the, the disparities that we allow to, to exist in society.

I think one of the reasons that you sit with this shame, Anna, is because you have this personal relationship. You have gotten through that into a real meaningful relationship with Catherine. And that allows you to, to, you know, see her in her full humanity and recognize the, the injustice in the world.

It's the same benefit that you get out of an integrated school with, you know, kids finding each other's shared humanity. It's like, there's great upside in that. I think the relationships you end up with are much deeper and more meaningful and broader, and give you much bigger perspective on the world.

And they, like, force you to confront the real injustices that live in the world. And if, like, everybody's got the same wealth, I don't have to, like, look at the class disparities that exist in the world. I don't have to actually confront that and see that and be reminded of that every day and feel the pain that goes along with, with acknowledging that that's world that we live in.

Dr. Val: Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I wanna, I just wanna be super clear in this conversation, I recognize my own, like, grappling with poverty and how I talk to the kids about it.

You know, from a very young age, because it, it felt necessary as soon as they could, you know, I invited the kids in conversations around the budget, because we did have to say, “No, you cannot have this thing. Here's why you cannot have this thing. Here's where we have to put, like, various resources because, you know, money is finite and this is what we have,” right? And so, by default those were conversations that I started really early, but my daughter was very upset with me once because we were heading somewhere. It was, um, an unhoused Black woman who was, like, knocking on the car windows asking and I didn't roll down the window. And she was mad. She was like, she was upset with me. We were on our way to an art exhibit around Black Lives Matter. And she was pissed.

She was like, “I do not like this hypocrisy.” These are not her words at the time, but this was totally her attitude.

Anna: Close enough. Close enough. Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah! This was a couple years ago, so she didn't have those exact words yet, but she was, she was upset and couldn't understand, like, why! And I think my rationale at the time was like, it was, we were like, still in the middle of Covid.

I was like, “She didn't have on a mask,” you know? Like, I, I didn't know what to say! Right? Just as we are trying to find the words to talk about race, we have to figure out the words to talk about class with our children. And, and we have to be okay with the answers, like here's historically what happened in the system. I don't know why we are still doing this. Here's what I am trying to do to make sure the system is better for all people.

Like, the same type of solutions that we're offering for young people around conversations about race. I think we have to be explicit in terms of class as well. Um, cuz they do notice, right? I mean, my daughter was pissed!

Okay? And yeah, yeah! Really good for her. Really good for her. And I didn't have an answer that erased the shame that I felt in that moment. Right? Um, because it was a Black woman that could have easily been me. You know? In any other role of the die. And, yeah. No, that was tough. Thank you, daughter!

Andrew: You know, another kind of upside to me of my kids being in a school where there is a wide range of class experiences, is that they can build those that they can start to, to work on the skills to build those friendships across class lines. Because I think it's something that we don't practice much. Something that we don't have good language for, and it's something that we don't encourage people to do.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I think we have to pay any of these pinches that we feel when they come up to help us, um, continue to unpack our biases and assumptions around them, right? And to not ignore those. So, as you mentioned Anna, I'm feeling like I'm coming in with this power dynamic that I have to consider. Like, what is happening–

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: –you know, that makes you feel that? Is it how you are approaching people? If I'm feeling this pinch around, like, not rolling down the window to offer some change, like, why? Like, what is, what am, what am I thinking and feeling? And trying to process, like, in that moment, because there's, there's obviously something there. Like, there was obviously something there.

Anna: I feel very fortunate to have inquisitive children who ask these kinds of questions. And to humble myself and say, “I don't know if we're doing it right.” These are really tough questions and I, I'm trying to wade through who we are and how we show up and how we live better in our spaces. Like, all of our spaces.

And part of that is, like, seeing someone else's humanity as directly equal to mine. I wanna live into that more than be like, “Oh, how, how can we get new computers for the whole school?” Or how, right? Cuz I, I think that the inclination is to bring our resources to bear, in any given space and relationship. And like, if I don't unpack the, the imbalance of power that creates, then it's like, “The computers are a liability.”

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Andrew: Yep. Lot to chew on there. But, here we are, end of the episode. As we are doing this season, talking about action steps, things we can do coming out of this heavy conversation. What are you thinking about for action steps? Anna?

Anna: You know, the idea of saying like, “Find a low income friend!” “Find a Black friend!” Like, that feels very flat. That feels, like, not very good advice for our friends out there.

Dr. Val: Correct!

[Laughter]

Anna: Um, so I'm gonna say that's not the action step. However,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Anna: What I saw when I looked around my life, was my friend group was incredibly segregated by race and class. And examining that, and walking that back has been, uh, you know, tricky! But, like, essential step in the process of like, finding joy in my life and relationships.

Andrew: Yeah. So look around your life. What relationships might be missing and then find ways to invest in those, not in the transactional “I need a poor friend or a Black friend,” but more in the “What relationships can I actually invest in?” I love that. How about you, Val?

Dr. Val: I, um, I wanna challenge us all to talk to our kids about class, as challenging as that may be. Um, I do know it's not something that comes up in schools a lot. You know, it's kind of talked around.

Andrew: I mean, I would say it's not something that comes up in schools, in society more broadly. Like, yeah, we just don't talk about, about class.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And so, you know, like, start, start talking about it. And I think, that will take away some of the stigma of even, like, engaging in the conversation. You know, what I really appreciate from you all in this conversation was like surfacing some of those deeper emotions like shame associated with having affluence and morality, and all of that. And, you know, things that I hadn't had– “Mo money, mo problems!” Less money, different problems!

[Val laughs]

So, um. So, but just that I had not, you know, had not thought about.

And I think it's, it's okay and it's responsible to talk to young people (especially the young people that you are responsible for giving care to) about this so that they can be good stewards of wherever they are in their –

Anna: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: –class level. And also reduce these biases and judgments and assumptions that we have about people of different, in different classes.

Andrew: Yeah.

Anna: I think that's so important and I know for me, attempting to have those conversations, like, I am not gonna hit a hole in one on my first shot. I, I often don't know how to have those conversations, but I find the emerging conversations we're having are usually around me asking questions to them, and sharing my thoughts and fears, feelings, insecurities, rather than being sort of, “This is how it is.” You know?

Knowing that the conversation is ongoing, it will need to be revisited. “You know, I've been thinking about that conversation we had last week about money and I don't know if I said that right. And I wanna try again, and I wanna hear what you think.”

Dr. Val: I mean, because, it's connected to the decisions you're making for your kid's schooling, right? Like all of that is connected, so we should be able to talk about this, in a way that humanizes everyone involved.

Anna: And doesn’t objectify them.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. That, yeah, that starting point of, like, everyone's sort of equal humanity, um, feel, feels really important. So yeah, my, my action steps are definitely I need to have a, and I think starting from that place of curiosity, like, “Hey, like what do you kids think about money?” You don't, you don't actually have to think about money. That like, is not a thing that is, like, on their radar. So like, what does that, what does that mean when they don't think about it? And, and, and what have they internalized as a, as a starting point?

Because yeah, I think, I think giving them some tools to start to examine that is important

Dr. Val: We drove by one of those lotto signs, and I think it was like 1.9 billion dollars or something, whatever the MegaBall is. And this is the first time we asked the kids, we're like, “What would you do with the money?” And my son's like, “You know what? I would buy two cars, maybe three! And a PS5, and then the grandparents could figure out what to do with the rest.”

Andrew: There you go!

Anna: I love that.

Dr. Val: I was like, ok, that's cool! Right? Yeah, we would go on vacation. But you know, like, for him, you know, it was all like, “You know, I don't need it!” or I don't even know, “I, I cannot even conceptualize like what that money would do,” you know?

Andrew: Yep. Well, this has been, uh, a lovely conversation. So grateful Anna for coming on and sharing.

Anna: Thanks for having me! I loved being here.

Andrew: So grateful to Catherine for just–

Dr. Val: For sure.

Andrew: –opening up her life and her heart to us, and sharing some of her brilliance and wisdom with us. I definitely was deeply enriched by that conversation.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Same.

Anna: If you liked what you heard, wanna be a part of the conversation, head over to patreon.com/integratedschools and you can sign up to contribute and there's extras and perks and conversations. Um, and we'd love to have you there in our community as well.

Dr. Val: And we wanna encourage you to listen to this episode and share it. And share it again. And share it again. Talking about these things that we're talking about are ways to spread the message, and we want to expand the community.

Andrew: Absolutely. Well, I am deeply honored to be in this with you both as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time!

Anna: Thanks.