Ep 5 – Interview with a Skeptic

The Integrated Schools Podcast

EP5: An Interview with a Skeptic

HOSTS: Andrew Lefkowits & Courtney Mykytyn

GUEST: Chris Stewart

Education Activist

RELEASE DATE: Nov 18. 2018

Andrew: Welcome to the integrated schools podcast. I'm Andrew White, dad from Denver,

Courtney: and I'm Courtney, a white mom from Los Angeles.

Andrew: Episode five Interview with a skeptic. We're joined by Chris Stewart, black education advocate, father and former school board member. This one's heavy, but it's really important. Courtney, how did you come to have this conversation with Mr Stewart?

Courtney: So Chris has spoken out a lot on the national scene, and much of what he says is a critique of integration, at least in the ways that it's currently done. Which, maybe we could argue, is more about desegregation. Anyway, I think it's really important for us as white people who care about this issue to listen and listen hard. So I reached out to him, and we've had a number really good conversations about this stuff.

Andrew: It's like from the start, you guys seem to be on pretty opposite sides of this debate like we're integrated schools. He's pretty outspokenly against integration, but I guess one of reasons I like this conversation so much and why it's so important is because I guess, you know, fundamentally, I'm not sure we are on opposite sides. I mean, certainly there are policy issues where we might not all agree. But you know, what we're focused on at integrated schools is not really the policy, but it's the underlying stuff that allows us to continue to make choices that have negative consequences for everybody, especially communities of

Courtney: color. Yeah, I tried really hard not to get in the weeds on particular policies with this interview, but really to highlight how we as white and our privilege parents have made choices that are problematic. And Chris is really good. He's really clear, maybe even harsh about pointing those out. But, you know, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Immensely, actually, yes,

Andrew: I think it's safe to say he does not pull any punches. Um, it's not always easy stuff to hear, but it is. It's really important to listen. I mean, look, integrated schools is largely a white, privileged organization talking toe privileged people, right? And we do that because we recognize that the current state of segregation is a problem created by white people.

Courtney: Yeah, right. Like racism, integration is really a white people problem, but we have to listen and engage and be in conversation with people of color with people who might not agree with everyone, and especially folks with whom we've done little historically to build any trust, because otherwise it, you know, it's not really integration, right? It's just another form of desegregation. But ultimately isn't building the kind of society that we believe in. So this listening needs to happen now. It should have already happened, but it definitely used up. And now, and it's not going to be easy or straightforward. But that still needs to Jericho, period. All

Andrew: right, let's hear the interview.

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Courtney: Welcome, everyone. Today we're talking with Chris Stewart, who is a former squad, remember, nationally known education activist and the chief executive at the Way Finder organization, Chris is dedicated. Thio quote Antal sighing ideas that increased educational opportunity for black people, families and communities by challenging the dominant discourse about black people, our students and our schools. Chris, thank you. I'm so glad you're here.

Chris Stewart: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you.

Courtney: This is great. So I kind of want to just jump right in. When we last spoke, you said that you used to be an integration of angeles, but you are not. And then integration in every anymore. Can you explain why not?

Chris Stewart: Well, number one that's an understatement by far. So I often say that you know, I was education integration evangelist until I got mugged. And the mugging took place over several years where I really got involved in some local changing of school boundaries and school rules to get some of our schools integrated. And it just went badly on Guy learned along the way. A lot of what I believed to be true about liberals and progressive people who talk often about integration just didn't work out in reality. In terms of when we would try and change boundaries, we would get pushed back. And when we would keep pushing those boundaries, we would get serious pushback from parents from the elected officials that, you know, work with them and represented them. And there was just a very strong social power to defeat most of the things that we were trying as a school district in Minneapolis, public schools to integrate the schools there was just over, and I'm subverted activity to stop us from moving kids around or getting, you know, like a handful of kids of color and to the Tony schools that my kids were dominant in. It just was a sad Siri's of disappointments in the people who talk about integration the most.

Courtney: I'm not surprised I

Chris Stewart: had to see it. This is part of my problem is that I was surprised. I really believed in progressives and liberals, at least on these things. I thought there were just a certain number of things that we were just clear on, like racial integration and equity. And I just thought we agreed on all those things, and but it came to the integration part. It just really wasn't true.

Courtney: So when there was all of this push back, I'm sure I could probably guess at all of the reasons for the pushback. But do you wanna connect? Summarized why people were resisting the rezoning,

Chris Stewart: the number one through line that everybody wrote to me, which was I bought my house specifically so my kids could go to these schools because I value education. And then that was the common opening paragraph. And then after that, it was a series of things like, My child is so special, my child, I'm deserves the level of quality education she's getting right now. If you make us move to a school where none of the parents care about education the way that we do, we will pull our children out and put them in private school.

And mind you, these are not like the super crazy conservative parents. These are Obama voting left of left, left of center on every issue, writing a school board member, basically saying Those people don't care about education the way that we do. And we don't want our kids mixed up in that. The fact that they're in schools with little test scores should tell you something right away that our kids don't belong there with them. We will use all of our social power to get you out of office to get you off the board way. We will call them air. We will call the speaker of the House. We will do whatever it takes because you're making a grave mistake by not listening to us. I actually want to say one of the ones that surprised me the most eso Every time I say that something surprised me. You having a phD and whiteness should probably not be surprised about what's about to come out of my mouth. But the's literally were surprises to me, right? Like things that I learned how naive I actually was about people in the state of racial politics in a very liberal city. But one person who broke me basically said, I volunteered once at one of those schools over North and north. Minneapolis is our black side of town. If there is one, Um, and she's saying, You know, I I visited the schools and I even volunteered in Wall on. And those people care more about their clothes and their shoes than they do about their kids education. And I just can't mix my daughter up with that signed by and had her name Dr So and So, Ah, professor at the University of Minnesota, And I'm thinking to myself, This is problematic on so many levels, like the 1st 1 is just that, the level of backwardness and what you just wrote to me. But the worst part is that there are actually college students taught by a person who is to Coach Lee, insulated to understand how backward she actually is.

Courtney: Yeah, I'm not. I'm horrified. I have big feelings about it. That surprise isn't one of us. One thing that is is always so fascinating to me and in a you know horrified, sort of train wreck kind of way is, is the narrative around who who cares about education, which parents care about education and in some of the language around parent engagement is so incredibly white, you know, it's either really paternalistic or you know, so it's. But it's very framed and, like carrying as a parent about education, looks like this. And there's there's sort of one way to show up.

Chris Stewart: Yeah, I mean, and it's It's kind of like the hidden rules of being middle class or the hidden rules of being in the social, you know, economic mainstream or whatever. But it's actually not the way that if we care about our public institutions, that we should be going about working in a pluralistic society where not everybody is white, middle class, with two white college educated parents. That's our standard. And that's our gold standard than our education system should be shut down tomorrow because that's no longer the mainstay of who's who served in our public schools. That's been and to be very honest with you, I think it's in doubt whether or not we share a common public institution called the Public Schools and whether we should like whether black and Brown family should even be interested in sharing school districts with people who are so pampered, privileged and culturally insulated to the point where they're almost juvenile about their standing in the world. They don't understand the sense of superiority that they still carry with them that is updated, but actually no different than their ancestors in their forebears. Who capped made it his captives, right? So the idea that we've come so far is just really It doesn't bear out in the savage racial, economic politics of education. It just really doesn't bear out that we've come so far. In some ways, there's just this soft social power that still takes place amongst white mom's mostly but the husbands that love them, too, who come along for the ride to kind of dominate the landscape of how public school happens, like how how the game board and the pieces were played and how little islands of privileged just gets set up, if not in the whole school or a whole district or whole zip code, at least within a unit of a school where you know, the smart, good white kids air kind of kept away from the savage general population, being dramatic in the way that I I'm talking right now. There's a purpose that the purpose really is the situation itself. Is that traumatic? Like the inequities bear out. Really? Material results that are way more dramatic than the way that I'm talking right now.

Courtney: Yeah. I mean, I actually don't disagree with you. I guess the kind of slipperiness of racism is, in a way, what we're talking about right then, you know, it just it doesn't have to be carrying a torch in Charlottesville.

Chris Stewart: No, actually, that's my preferred way of it doing up when there's a mystery. Like Okay, so you've got a tiki torch. I see that we're done here,

Courtney: but I know where I stand with you. Yeah,

Chris Stewart: you're making it pretty clear. It's the other ones who smother you in your sleep and kill you with supposed kindness that are actually more deadly than anyone

Courtney: you have talked a lot about. Like funding white privilege and white parent. Power it in a way that's very specific about how that affects families of color. One of the things that we talked a lot about is you know, this idea of You have to get the best things for your kid. You have to get it all for your kid. But But there's a disconnect with how you know securing advantage for your kid actually affects other kids in a district. In the system in America, whatever. So I wonder if you if you want to draw those lines for us between getting everything for my you know, Wait, kid and how that affects other kids,

Chris Stewart: I'll turn it the other way around is just got historically marginalized people, people who are descended from folks that are, you know, hundreds of years behind the dominant population because of oppression and because of really bad social constructs that were put in our places barriers. We have a different mission with our children than white parents do. White parents mission is too stuck up all of the possible advantage in power like it's gravy on a biscuit and give it to their kids and shove it down their throats and just continuously overstuff them was with us much privileges possible because if they don't they might become victims to the Browning of America. Whether they know consciously or subconsciously, that that's what they're doing, they're at war with us, right? And these air that this is the same spirit that does this today is the same spirit that put Indians through boarding schools and put blacks into schools without books or water or adequate facilities and whatnot, and always at every turn, found a good reason and rationale for it happening. Even if they weren't directly involved. There was a good reason to put Indians into boarding schools, you know, you know, save the child, kill the Indian. And now it's like, you know, together and unequal is the new thing that white folks are trying to replace it with. The disintegration stuff is a trick. It's a trick to ease the conscious of white folks while they still continue, even in those supposedly integrated situations. Suck up all of everything. In terms of the advantage. The best class is the best teachers, the advanced, the honors, the special rooms, the special places within a building, special places within a district. Let's control the school board. They are at war with the best interest of my children of color who live in my household, who I'm actually trying to raise to not work for you all who I'm trying to actually Ray's tow own a part of these United States that wasn't and it hasn't been intended for them. T own. I'm trying to beat history, and white folks are trying to beat the future. The future is of color in the United States and whether white folks know it or not, these little soft interactions that they have with things in, like the power of how the public schools are administrated or whatnot, or a part of the whiteness portfolio of keeping power. It could be liberal. They could be conservative, they could be in the middle, but it all shakes out the same. They come out on top in the end, no matter what political persuasion they are. And it's just weird how that happens. I don't know how dumb we're supposed to be a cz people of color to believe that it's just accidental that the schools look the way that they do are that these populations of people just kind of coalesce together in cohorts and and their phone trees and organizing meetings and social events together. And they form social bonds and social capital. Their social capital becomes calm, pounded over time and over place, and it becomes a stronghold. It's very hard to shake loose and then were given this, like, grand offer that maybe we can integrate with some of you all and actually do what was done to us before, which is just like have our kids die 1000 cultural deaths because you're just looking to integrate us until white normed buildings and schools so that we have even yet another challenge. So what you are doing in terms of integrating into a school where you're actually ending up the minority in a in a school or what not is not the way that I normally see it happen. And that, to me, is more honest and it's more brave. And it's kind of like race trading, in a

Courtney: way. Face cheating. Yeah, I mean, in a way,

Chris Stewart: you're kind of like you're you're kind of you're not with the program when you're willing to do that. You know you're not with white program as much as you should be you know, you better watch out. You might have your white card pulled at some point, uh, for doing it that way, because that doesn't leave this name. Structures of power in place. Yeah, I know it puts you in a situation where you're not actually seeking dominance.

Courtney: Well, it can. I mean, you know, that's part of the worry with us. When white people show up to integrating spaces, there's bad things that happen. There's colonizing that happens even with the best intentions. That's true. There's a lot to keep in track here. In one of our first conversations, you sort of gave me this checklist conditions to be met before you would be willing to talk about integration again. And I really loved your checklist. Can you share it? I don't know if it mattered in your head as a checklist, the way I heard it, but

Chris Stewart: yeah, I don't know that I would be able to recreate it completely, But I mean, there's some things that stand out to me as Constance like the 1st 1 is the onus for any schemes or remedies from to dis desegregation integration. The onus of all of the remedies have to be on white people, not on black people. So that means that if there's gonna be any moving, shutting down of things or whatnot, the all of those type of plans have to hold black people and people of color, period harmless, meaning we don't lose our teachers. We don't lose our buildings. We don't get put our kids on buses for an hour and 1/2 to 2 hours to ship them off to white normed places. The opposite happens. Like it. I like the new movement for integration has to be predicated on white sacrifice, like white people actually have to give up something to make it work this time because we tried it the other way. And we've never recovered from, you know, the white liberal remedies of the 19 seventies that kind of completely dismantled black education and black educational capital. Right, So this time around is gonna be the opposite. There's anything to lose white people after. Was it first or, you know, we're just not interested. I am talking for the black people who actually we're holding the bag When we had all of our losses the last time around, when urban schools that used to be good. Black schools were shut down when good black teachers were let go and good good black principles were demoted to be janitors when we started forming education desserts. Because, of course, there couldn't be any good schools that white people would want to go to in the hood. So we're gonna shut down the educational capital in the institutions within the black communities. And then she, if the people out and not even think about what message that sends to people of color and toe white people, I get like, I would like a sip superiority mind boost like you guys can't be great until you come be with us and maybe we'll let you be with us or not sets of first thing. The second thing is really It can't be like white normed inclusion that passes for integration. It can't be second class integration where you know, im tolerated in your building and my kids are allowed to be with you all or whatnot because actually, I don't have that level of insufficient with self esteem, right? Like I don't need my kids to understand the world in terms of they can't be good unless they're with you all. There is no gold standard that has been set for me in my life and or for anybody who thinks like me, her parents of color who actually want to raise healthy, well adjusted people of color So it can't be like white normed inclusion. You and I have disagreed on this other point a little bit more, but I'm actually not 100% sold, but a little bit more sold on the idea of diverse schools, schools where there isn't a dominant like it isn't white normed. But there are multiple kind of, ah, plural population of people so that you don't have any clear idea that we're being integrated into your thing. Well, we're all sharing a common territory. It's kind of like the United States. So that's another big one for me to the other. One is you can attack white choice, but you can't really attack my choice, right? Because we have been exiled and because we have been booted out of the circle of power and kept out by the way that racial, economic, educational politics work, Um, we have had to develop alternatives to the mainline system So for some of us, like all of this, talk around, let's opt out and let's stop the privatization and corporatization and end the charter schools and all that tough some of the whitest bullshit I've ever heard in my life and I just don't have any part of it. It's like it's like selling my people cultural suicide, like telling us the only thing we can do is the main line schools in trying to create boogie men out of anything that would be an alternative. That's not to say that I think people who are offering alternatives are all saints and angels or what not. I'm just saying it's our call. It's actually no one else's call. So don't get in the way of any choices on making because you have some college level understanding of neo liberalism and privatization and all the shit that people talk about that actually doesn't solve my Monday problem. My problem is you guys can argue about all of that, But where do I put my kid on Monday? And if you're telling me Oh, I should take one for the team and put them into this crappy district school that you've already abandoned because I want to, like, you know, kind of sign on to some weird loyalty oath with the state schools, the same state that is killing us in the streets, over punishing us in the courts, mass incarcerating us, putting us on welfare through these jacked up schools like we're supposed have some sort of weird loyalty in Trump World to the state, into the government of all people because we don't want to privatize. So all of that is just so they don't get in the way of my choices. I'm choosing a charter school. I'm choosing a district school intruding private school. We're not. You do not have to like it at this point, But after 400 years of white bullshit, I think we get to choose now. And it doesn't matter whether the good white people of affluent cities like Seattle and Portland and Los Angeles and elsewhere don't like choice. You know, Let's be real. They don't like choice for us. They love choice for themselves. Like the choice to be able to pop on the Xylan by $1,000,000 house so that you get the good school. See, that's a choice, right? That's not a choice. All of us have.

Courtney: You know, we've talked at length about the charter school stuff and to us, it integrated schools. Charters are just one of a billion ways that weight people can segregate. And so it's not my business to tell a black or brown parent workers in their kid. When we've set the fires. I’m going to switch gears just for a second. I think that I'm having a little bit of confusion. You know, one of your conditions for integration is that white folks need to do the sacrifice. And, you know, that looks like bussing. That looks like opting in to integrating spaces - not just being real nice to the five kids. You've allowed to come into your white space, right? But I guess what's what I struggle with is this idea of sacrifice, like, you know, are there not things that white kids and families get from this experience? It might be re prioritizing. You know, there's there's trade offs, but when we talk about this only as a sacrifice, I feel like you're kind of perpetuating that same sort of narrative,

Chris Stewart: The narrative that there are some sacrifices that would have to be made?

Courtney: No, like I think that there are things that white kids get from these experiences.

Chris Stewart: I absolutely agree with that. Like, I do think that it would make for better people for better white people, for sure to have kind of direct contact with other folks that they come to know and come to like and appreciate and be friends with and some not be friends with or whatever, but yeah, yeah, that all makes sense to me, right? Like I get that. But you can't read books about people hoarding privilege and not realize that the opposite of hoarding is actually just taking as much as you need. Which means if you already are over privileged, you do have to give some things up, right? There's no way out for me and listen. I can't tell other people what to do. There's no moral way for me out of being over privileged that doesn't require you de privileging yourself in some ways, and that's what the word sacrifice means. I don't mean that you like you're gonna be some sort of martyr for sending your kids to some of these schools, but when I talk about this too, I'm just talking about the big sacrifices that people of color had to make for the last round of big integration. Thinking right, The sacrifices were pretty large. We sacrificed her educators, our schools, our educational capital in our own neighborhoods, our ability to, have pride and have something close by. What happens when you get on a bus and you go somewhere for an hour and 1/2? Well, no one really discovered that. Well, it's harder for parents to build social capital with each other because it's so far away. It's harder for parents to be involved. Started, could go to football games and, you know, participate in things that's gonna be reversed now, right? I'd love to see some people coming from our here and say, for instance, the Twin Cities. I'd love to see some really honest and serious people to come into the cities from those white first ring suburbs. You know who's doing it right now because we have a choice program that allows people if they so want to integrate schools to do it. What's really interesting is we set up a program that allows kids to go out to the suburbs for integration purposes and for kids to open and roll into the city for integration purposes. And what's really interesting is black kids from the suburbs are opting in to the very black schools in the city, and white kids in the city are opting to go out to the white suburbs again. Not surprising to you, right? So I guess I'm sensitive. What you're saying is not to sell it as like Oh, my God, this is such an awful something You're gonna have to give up everything in the world. I get that. But you want to be honest about the fact that if you're looking for a way to stay, you know, privileged and to stay advantaged and a safe, clinical way to make this happen where you just end up somewhere else with all of the advantages that you have right now, I'm not entirely sure of how that happens, right? I just don't have anything for you. Like I'm empty on a plan where you maintain the same level of power and privilege and first place-ness and don't lose anything or have to change. I like what you say. The word tradeoff makes sense, but, you know people don't experience as Ah, OK, trade off. I don't know if you know that. I mean, I don't want to speak for you. It just seems to me and talking to a lot of people. They do see it as needing to make sacrifices. Yeah, like it's small things like, you know, who's gonna come to your kid's birthday party all of a sudden is different than who doesn't. Now, how are they going to get there? Is different than what happens right now. Are you gonna feel as comfortable letting your kids go to their new court? Heard of friends, birthday parties and whatnot. And how are you gonna experience that drop off there? There are things that will be different for you. And I'm hoping that anybody pitches it to you is kind of having like, a realistic system of how you share experience, like, How does this happen? How do you make us like, you know, in your situation you're probably in a different situation. Someone else's, you know who's got more privilege right now, And they might want to know from you how you're surviving that but you've told me is it's all cool. It's all fine.

Courtney: No, it's not all fine. It's hard and it's messy and it's complicated, and it's about building relationships of people that you probably wouldn't have otherwise. And, you know, our neighborhood has largely Latin X. So we have, Ah, really serious language, hell to climb between me and my A lot of my kidsfriends, Not all of them. Yeah, I know. It's complicated, really complicated.

Chris Stewart: Well, I I actually wouldn't want to scare anybody off, But the way that people talk to me is in terms of what do I do? You know, when I was a school board member and we were proposing these things, there were very common questions that people would ask and feedback that people would have, and they mostly revolved around. Am I a bad person if I don't want to sign my kid up for and the name this list of things that are like sacrifices or differences that would take place. I literally had a parent say to me that she tried it once, and no one came to her daughter's birthday party, even though she sent everybody multiple invitations multiple times. No one showed up, and I just couldn't put my kid through that for another year. She literally told me that I came home and told my wife that like these birthday situations were real serious for some folks, right?

Courtney: really serious

Chris Stewart: seemed a very important thing that I wouldn't have thought about before. It was brought to my attention.

Courtney: But, you know, but like, it's just one of those things where you don't even realize you know how people interact in the world might not look the same in so birthday parties is another one of those, and it takes time.

Chris Stewart: It's really important to that. You know, you don't oversimplify because people are in very different situations, depending on what district there in what part of the country there's a common thing that's going on, but the solutions might be different in a big city versus a smaller city or what not. But what fascinates me about this is the number of adjustments I have to make with my own kids. We were like that family that was never gonna have a minivan. And we have a minivan now, and part of the utility of a minivan Is that all the doors open without you having to try. And when you have birthday parties and gatherings and things, those doors are opening often because you're picking up lots of kids to go do something right. Not everybody has transportation in my kid's school. There's always going to be if we want them to have successful gatherings and birthday parties or whatnot. There's always going to be a part of the work that's on us to happen. Thus the damn minivan.

There is work to be done, though that isn't just hard policy. Isn't just work of like getting people into buildings or changing school boundaries so that you make people do these things. There is another part, like the resistance to integration that I experienced from people is very in large part social, and we were trying to fix it with policy solutions, and our policy solutions always were beat by the social capital in the social situation. It was being defeated by that part, and there's nobody who concentrates on that part of the work. We were all bureaucrats, politicians and elected people, so I don't know. You change the hearts and minds of people.

Courtney: I mean, I'm trying,

Chris Stewart: Uh, well, it's a mighty mighty bite.

Courtney: I mean, all this work is really a Perry political right that that we're trying to do because policy A is really different in different places. But the narratives that white people used to support, the choices that they're making and where they live and where they send their kids to school and how they show up. Those are all outside of politics and those rules, regulations and zones apply. And I don't like them. I can opt out of that.

Chris Stewart: Yeah, well, when I said to you before in our previous conversation, I think I really love the idea that people get together and they talk these things through with each other and they start bonding and build up their own social capital around these issues because I think that's the way that you have, like progress and social change is when people start taking it on themselves and start working with their friends and families. But they have to eventually get to the part where they're willing to challenge their own. They're willing to challenge their neighbors, their community, their neighborhoods on these issues because what I have seen is that the group that will be dominant in this discussion and be resistant are always much better armed than the lambs who come into the debate trying to find the Kumbaya for everybody. And, you know, let's be into integration or whatnot. They almost look like doe-eyed children, sometimes in how they don't understand the level of kind of social sophistication, of the people who are resisting and the way that they exercise their power. They have you outmanned before you get there, unless you're pretty well versed in things like get in, your quick has to be pretty solid. I don't know about everywhere else, but I know in Minneapolis for sure, there's a lot of talk about integration, all that. But the warriors on the side of actually making it happen when things go wrong or when the policies aren't gonna go our way or whatnot are super not armed, they're they're like, like outmatched by far.

Courtney: What would you suggest? What do you How do they get armed?

Chris Stewart: I think you know what I said before. Like, you guys are on your way there with them actually feeling, you know, confident with each other, like having some backup people always fear, like jumping out there and being the only person and going to the board meeting and saying the thing when no one's gonna be behind them or organizing things and realizing that nine out of 10 of the people that they live around and see on a regular basis are gonna be against them, that requires you to feel like you have a core group of homies who are always gonna be there with you. See, I just like you do. Because the other group is meeting. You know, don't let's not fool ourselves there. They're having little book meetings and talking about Diane Ravitch and opting out of testing and, you know, privatisation and all that stuff, too. And they Oh, by the way, they've perfected the language of being for integration. So when they come to fight about on boundaries or changing school times or something like that, they have a plausibility of being for it while they're killing it. And they don't have anybody to stand right next to them and say, No, no, no, no, We're like you. We understand you, we know what you're talking about and you're wrong and we're going to stand our ground, but it does require some critical mass of people. People have told me to my face, My God, I'm so frustrated with this. I would love to show up tonight and say something. I know exactly what they're saying and they're talking about. It's ridiculous and I hate it, blah blah. But, and the big but of this is, I don't want to be by myself.

Courtney: Yeah, no, that's real. Did you see the video that I sent you? It's a video of a woman who pulled her kids midway through elementary school and it's driving them across town and went for the first time to the school board. And she stood up and said, like in support of both school integration and calling out school board members by name, like so And so I am a constituent and I do believe in school integration, you know, And I'm doing this with my kid, and

Chris Stewart: I mean, if you found a way to help her be more confident in that situation, I feel like that's God's work right there, because when I was on the school board to have that exact situation happened, that person show up would have been it would have made all the difference in the world. In many of the meetings that that I was in, we only needed one or two or three people to show up with a very strong statement who had the right social background to be heard. It would be Incredible to make changes in what we were doing. And it was not there so often, though, and the times that it was my God was I super thankful on the nights when that person didn't show up.

Courtney: We need to give you more of those people. And you just talked about kind of the code for being for integration while actually trying to kill integration. Can you point out some of those codes?

Chris Stewart: You know, I think it It may not be for people explicitly saying there for integration, but they're they're implying that they are by talking about many of the problems with our schools are because of poverty and segregation. Our schools are so segregated, and that's we can't blame schools for all the ills. You know kids and you know whatever is going on in them and it's just the segregation and the poverty or whatnot without any real kind of solutions to like. And because of that, I'm gonna take my kid across town and put them if it in a school that adds my social capital to that school. Andi, they talked through that very progressive kind of talk track. But the way that they show up to actually work against what's actually coming out of their mouth is to defeat boundaries that would would end or at least eradicate much of the segregation in the in the city like Minneapolis. You know, we sought to move boundaries two or three blocks any direction, and that would cut out a certain group of white people who would suddenly have to go to a different school. And you would have sworn that we were just attempting to, like, defeat white people forever. And they wouldn't show up angry and hostile, like the things you hear on like this American life. They would write us very long, logical letters that had all of the value signaling a progressive could possibly put in the letter and what they would be asking us to do. It would be something that was seriously, seriously inequitable.

Courtney: After time, I feel like I could talk about this all day and then the other half the time with Take a deep sigh and have a margarita or something. I don't Well,

Chris Stewart: my message to people aggress countries don't talk about it. Don't tell me anymore. Don't talk me to death anymore because I've heard all of the like, kind of like pro integration, super liberal stuff. I've heard all of it and most of it's bullshit in my mind. I just wanna be real about it. I don't believe any of it. I think most of it is just another form of white power trying to make itself okay with its kind of degradation, of people, of color through systems. But it's it's a guilt solving situation. But what I do respect is action. So words and actions are two different things. So don't talk me to death, but let me see what you do with your kids. And when I was a school board member, I think I've told you this. I go to a lot of schools that were very, very black and they would be considered racially isolated and what not and every one of the school's there was like one or two or a handful of white kids, and it would always perplexed me like spending time with them. I talked to them, didn't always be thinking to myself like What is going on to your parents that they like? They're OK with this, right? Like was I need to know more. I actually need to know more about the psychology of those white parents versus the ones we've been talking about for this. Like, you know, this entire podcast, like, what is going on in your mind when you're OK with your little white kid being okay? And like, I mean, a school full of non white people. And I think I told you know, I can't make gross generalizations, which I can, actually, but I'm not going to. But oftentimes, I would think it would be like younger white parents, punk rock parents, parents who had grown up in those same schools themselves and, like, you know, just we're okay with it. Weren't gonna abandon the city because all those other kids were school aged. Meanwhile, Minneapolis at the time was tracking the number of parents who moved out of Minneapolis when their kids turned age four, and it was a big number. You're cool with the city and all the stuff that you have, the food that eats everything until your child gets kindergarten pre kindergarten and then you move out to the suburbs.

Courtney: I don't know what is your advice to white people who want to be these punk rock parents that you're talking about. How do you need us to show up?

Chris Stewart: You know, it's a great question person. I love my punk rock, white people advice. Here's the thing. I think the last thing I said really is the most important thing, which is Don't just, like, do book clubs and talk about these things. That's a good start. But you have to actually know that the activism part doesn't begin until you're willing to challenge the systems and challenge your neighbors and challenge your friends and not become a wilting violet in rooms in places and spaces where people are saying the opposite of what you're saying, there has to be a way for people to be ready to be actionary doesn't mean you have to go in and piss everybody off. Does it mean that you have to always be like in people's Grill and in their face, especially if that's not a winning strategy with your neighbors and your friends. It does mean that there needs to be some level of commitment, like if you think about the abolition movement or the suffrage movement of the civil rights movement. There were always take large mass group of lukewarm people. But there are always that that smaller group of people that were hot on fire and the hot on fire people are the ones who get things started to get the ball rolling. They push people out of their comfort zones. This issue kind of needs that for the white side of things, really right, like not everybody's ready to do that. Not everybody's prepared, but there has to be some sense of getting people to the point where they will do the challenging. When people of color stepped to the mic and really kind of push back on these things. When I'm saying what I'm saying right now, well, that's just, you know, there you go again. You know, you people are always about race. It's just a race thing and use the black guy is always the black guy stuff or, you know, it's always white people, this white people, that it's different when white people show up right, cause because that's off the table, that's just completely off the table. Now it's now it's, you know, man on man defense. Y'all just do your thing and I get to eat popcorn and watch what happens. But I tell you the truth, I'm rooting for you. But I'm betting on the other team

Courtney: way. Need to, like, just schedule a time to talk in a decade

Chris Stewart: in a decade and see how it goes. Well, you know, we this is that time a decade ago,

Courtney: but living in this time for millennia, this is you know, e think it's different now. I'm having conversations now that I couldn't have had when my kids were starting kindergarten a decade ago.

Chris Stewart: Courtney, you are hopeful and I love you. Be watching you. I'm with you,

Courtney: but, uh, you know, trying to be somewhat realistic, kid.

Chris Stewart: I appreciate the time to talk about it. I appreciate the work that you're doing anytime that you want me to share my cynicism. I'm happy. Too short. If feedback is a gift, I'm a philanthropist. So just know that. And, um, let's do it again. Let's keep talking. I'll be interested to see the success and the progress specifically in the Twin Cities, but in other places also.

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Courtney: Well, Damn Andrew.

Andrew: We warned you, he doesn't mess around. like what is so important about this discussion is that is that we have to talk about integration. But we can't only talk about integration, right? Like we have to talk about how we integrate,

Courtney: right? And I think, like at the baseline mechanically, you know, this is white family stepping into schools that serve black and brown students. White families have to do that work, yes,

Andrew: but also how we show up can't be white centering. It can't be moving black and brown bodies in the white spaces or turning existing black around spaces white.

Courtney: Yeah, Can't they wait? Normed Inclusion. Absolute.

Andrew: I love that part. Yeah, I mean, look, in the end, like I don't know that there is a real disconnect between Stuart's vision and ours. I think there's a question of how likely we are to succeed and and, you know, I mean, I would argue he's fully justified in not waiting for us to come around and do this better. He doesn't have much hope because we haven't given communities of color any reason to hope that we will ever get better at this. But as he said, as PhDs and whiteness like, we have to be the one to do the work, you ended your interview on a hopeful note. I am hopeful that we can change hearts and minds even if it takes generations. But what I know we can't do is sit back and accept the status quo. But if not us, then who, if not now, then when.

Courtney: That's right and I love that. Chris said that he was rooting for us, even even though he might be betting against us.

Andrew: Yes. So, dear listeners, what did you guys think, recorded the voice memo? Let us know, email it to us hello and integrated schools dot org's or find us on any of the social media channels at integrated schools.

Courtney: Yeah, and thanks to everyone who has emailed, rated, reviewed, subscribed, we really appreciate your feedback. It actually means a lot because this work is the intensely scary and and important, and we are grateful to be in this with you all as we try to know better and do better

Andrew: for sure. See you next time.