S9E6 – Language, Power, and Whiteness

S9E6 - Language, Power, and Whiteness

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Language, Power, and Whiteness.

Dr. Val: I can already see how those things are connected. Talk to us a little bit about our guest.

Andrew: Yes. So we have another return guest, JPB Gerald. Folks may remember in the middle of the pandemic, we talked to him about, about all sorts of things cuz that's what you get when you talk to JPB Gerald. Um, but in particularly about the connection between language and Whiteness.

Dr. Val: I think the way it connected in my mind, is that I know that I've had to use language in order to access different places in my life, right? Uh, code switching would be part of that. And so I recognize there's power in being able to navigate that. And I think I also recognized how language can be used to disempower others.

Andrew: Yes. And so JPB Gerald has, has lots of thoughts on that and has, has been thinking and writing about that for a while. He is a Black neuro divergent language scholar. Started out his career as a, a language teacher. If people want his full bio, he got much more into it in his first episode on the show. But sort of the broad strokes, he grew up in very White spaces, you know, sort of elite private schools. And then ended up going and teaching English as a second language. Starting out in Korea, he had no training at all, but because he spoke “proper English” he was allowed to go and teach Koreans how to speak English.

Dr. Val: So he’s had quite different experiences, I think from lots of folks. And his perspective on that provided him a lot of insight, that he used in his doctoral research and as he continued as an educator.

Andrew: Yes. And his graduate research that led to his doctorate degree also spawned a book that recently came out called Antisocial Language Teaching: English and the Pervasive Pathology of Whiteness, where he really explores this connection between Whiteness, language, standard, or what he refers to the standardized English, and then this sort of new thread in his life, which is uh, disability because he has recently been diagnosed as neuro divergent.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I think one of the things that he wanted to convey was this book was not just for English teachers or literacy teachers. He wanted other people to understand how all these things intersect as well.

Andrew: For sure. And the book definitely reads that way. You do not have to be a language scholar to, uh, get something outta the book. It was a fascinating read and we encourage readers to check it out, and I think after you hear the conversation, you will want to.

Dr. Val: Alright, let's hear from the man.

Andrew: Alright.

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Dr. JPB: Uh, hi folks I'm JPB Gerald, EDD. So I guess Dr. JPB Gerald. I graduated this spring from Hunter College or CUNY. My degree is in instructional leadership, which, what does that even mean? But what I'm choosing to do with my degree is I work as a training manager for a nonprofit.

Andrew: And you also wrote a book called Antisocial Language Teaching: English and The Pervasive Pathology of Whiteness. The last time we had you on we were talking about the links between language instruction and Whiteness but we certainly didn't get into it in depth the way you do in the book. So what's the book about and why'd you write it?

Dr. JPB: You know, it's funny. The last time I was on here, I was talking about a couple of articles I wrote and, um, one of them had come out that was about Whiteness and language teaching. And for those who haven't heard the episode, the point I'm making is that what is prized in an ideal language speaker, particularly English, but it's not untrue in other languages, aligns with what we prize in uh, this sort of constructed White identity. So that was the kernel of the idea from a couple of years ago. And then I gave a talk about that article and then I wrote a summary of it. In academia they ask you to do weird things.

[Andrew and Val laugh]

And the publisher, she read the summary. And then she said that they wanted to publish my work. And then I said, okay. And the only thing I could really think to do was sort of expand on ideas that were in that article and combine it with the additional knowledge I had gained about disability in the time I'd been researching since then.

Andrew: Yeah talk a bit about the disability piece. Cause we didn't really talk about disability at all. The last time you were on, it feels like that's been sort of a new part of your journey. How did that come to be and how do you think about it?

Dr. JPB: Yeah. So in 2017 or so I had started to think that I might be neurodivergent in some way. Um, but I wasn't diagnosed. It lined up with various symptoms and so forth. And I had a therapist and we sort of agreed, but that was not a diagnosis. And I said to myself, well, I think that this is true. I'm going to see about getting a diagnosis in a few months. I’m about to have a son. Let me just worry about that in a few months. And if you remember from the last time I was on, my son was born in February of 2020. So, you know, things were… a couple of months later, it was not, it was not going to happen. Uh…

Andrew: There wasn’t much going on a couple months later. [laughing]

Dr. JPB: [laughing] So, uh, I just didn't think about it for awhile, but at the same time like what I could learn that was new in school was mostly tied to the intersection between ableism and racism. Right. You know, it’s in the book it's in other books, but you know, the way we think of disability in the United States really did emerge from the way we came out of slavery.

Andrew: Yeah, that's a big idea and we definitely need to come back and unpack that a bit, but you know, to set a bit more context, you, you were working on this in 2020 during the pandemic and in the wake of George Floyd's murder, when, when there was all sorts of conversations about race going on.

Dr. JPB: There's a lot of people, especially in 2020, just talking about race and don't necessarily do a great job at it. But I thought that there was something new I could say, right. Talking, not just about race, but also about language, because that's what my background is professionally. But then also bringing in the connection with disability, because I don't think that intersection has really been made.

Andrew: Yup one of the things I love about the book is this kind of like, self-reflection that goes throughout it. You’ve done a lot of, you know kind of examining yourself and your own story and your own history. And there's like a lot of acknowledging places where you were wrong in the past. And you open the book with this Baldwin quote “Please try to remember that what they believe as well as what they do and cause you to endure does not testify to your inferiority but to their inhumanity and fear.” I can see why as you then go and sort of like tell your own story why that quote opens the book. I'm wondering if you can sort of tell us about that and a little bit of your background and history.

Dr. JPB: I mean, I could tell the story of the entire book if you ask me that question. [Andrew laughs] So for a long time, like a very long time, for decades even, most of the people I had grown up around; and I'm excluding my family from this, were White because of the schools I went to. You know, and I went to the same school for like 14 years growing up. And then I went to, uh, you know, an exclusive college and I started to think more about these things at that time. Look, everyone thinks about racism, when they're younger, I should say a lot of Black people have to think about it, but I wasn't thinking about it from the people directly in front of me, it was more distant. I didn't think about it in the, what we would call like, microaggression way. You know? And even as an adult, things would happen that, you know, because it wasn't, I don't want to say overt, but explicit, my brain always wanted to put it to something else.

Andrew: Mmmmmm…

Dr. JPB: Because it was easier to deal with.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. JPB: You know? So I always wanted to be like, well this hateful weird thing that happened is because of whatever…. And a lot of times you blame yourself which is why that quote is there. When more interpersonal things happen, you know, it's just much easier to, to be like, well, you know, I guess I was just annoying them. So, you know, I'll try to do things better next time. So that doesn't happen. And by the time I got to a certain point, I realized that that was untrue and I had a child and I realized that I needed to teach him something different.

Dr. Val: Hmm, I think that last phrase, you know, connects us all here. As a group of parents who are trying to figure out what's best for our young people. So as a caregiver, parent community, what are some main takeaways you would want the readers to know?

Dr. JPB: Well, it's funny because at the time that the publisher was interested, I was like, “I also have to write a dissertation. How am I going to write a book and a dissertation at the same time? This is ridiculous.” [chuckling] Um, and I said, maybe they'll let me write the book as the dissertation. They didn't let me do that.

Andrew: [laughing] Wishful thinking.

Dr. JPB: So I had to write two giant projects at the same time. Right? Well, I was working full-time and I had a kid and all this, you know, and obviously, know, my wife did a lot of work because there were things I couldn't do, but like, I was not an uninvolved parent at all, you know. And the lesson I was learning from writing this and the dissertation at the same time was research I was gaining while doing the dissertation about how the people I was interviewing for that, they realized that in order to actually challenge racism they had to really live it, which obviously is the point of the show.

We were talking about their workplaces, they were educators and we're talking about their schools. Right? And they were thinking about, you know, changing a policy in school or something like that, but then they would go home and when they had really sort of quote unquote gotten it, like they, they couldn't turn it off. You know, in their interactions with people, just in the street, you know, noticing things that they hadn't noticed before. All of these people in my classes, uh, that I was teaching on this, told me that they, these were like, usually progressive people like, Hey, you know, you know, we, we absolutely should have equality. They said they hadn't considered their role in this and what they have do all of the time until they were 25, 30, 35. And I think for them, they realized that they wanted to have their children in a different world and have their children be different from a lot of what's around the world.

So I would say lessons that I learned from what I was doing, the research I was doing, and from the classes I was teaching and the people that I was hearing from, showed that, you know, for parents, the decisions you make for your children are not divorced from these issues. And you really have to think about all of the ways that the big and small decisions that you're making will impact your children in the way they see the world.

When people grow up in a place that's homogenous, they just think that that is normal and you don't even have to teach them that lesson. You don't have to sit down and say, this is, you know, he must have only this kind of people around it. It doesn't have to be like that, but if that's all they see, they just think that that's what life is. And then the only way they see us is on the TV. And then how are we depicted?

Dr. Val: Mmmmhmmm.

Andrew: Hmmmm. Yeah there's so much in the book. I mean the book is ostensibly about teaching English but I feel like the first half of it is really about Whiteness and Blackness, and sort of the construction of Whiteness and the construction of Blackness. I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about this idea of like the ways that Blackness gets constructed by Whiteness.

Dr. JPB: Yeah, so, I mean, when I say Black people have existed longer than what we think of as Blackness, I just mean, you know, if you had the ability to take a picture from 4,000, 5,000 years ago, you’d be able to come back with some pictures of people that we would now see as Black. We know since there have been people there have been some Black people. But it coalescing into this other worldly distant idea of being away from the norm took time. And historians will argue about this, so I'm not going to put a year on it, but like, there are many arguments about exactly when, what we modern folks might recognize as Blackness was sort of more crystallized, but the historical record on Whiteness shows that like, that actually had to be thought of, you know? These people who are far away from us are different and weird thing is unfortunately not unique to the idea of Blackness or whatever. That, all of the particular traits that we get piled on us that sort of rose alongside what was… what traits were associated with Whiteness.

Dr. Val: Yeah, it's making me think of all of the court cases that had to establish Whiteness, right? Oh you're not White, but you're White, you know, all of those. So it was very much intentional about how we craft out this particular identity.

Andrew: And who gets to be White, right?

Dr. JPB: Right.

Andrew: “First you're Italian, you’re definitely not White. Now like, oh, yeah, okay, you can be White now. Cool. Irish… no. Alright, Jews… definitely not White. Okay, come on.”

Dr. JPB: I had an… I did an interview with, uh a Finnish woman and we were talking about how at a certain point even Finnish people weren't really considered White. Right? And then you and I are thinking like, “What?”

Andrew: It doesn't get any Whiter right? [chuckling]

Dr. JPB: Right? Whiteness expands but it's got these barriers that are always porous but harsh you know? Because there's always people fighting their way in but you know that line is still… still treacherous I guess.

Andrew: I mean I love that in the book you talk about it as a pyramid scheme. Um can you can you sort of walk us through that because it was… a yeah… It sort of crystallized something for me for sure.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I was like, “Ooh, sassy.”

Dr. JPB: The pyramid scheme I think… I don’t know if I was watching a TV show or something like that where I was just thinking about how this relentless cheerfulness that goes into a lot of like sort of MLM pyramid scheme stuff right? They can't really admit that they spent all their money and they're losing all their money because that goes against the job. You can't sell anything if you're desperate. And then I started thinking about the whole downline you know that like, and there is a point in many pyramid schem’s lives that they start with a product. Like there is a product in first place but then at a certain point it turns over into you're actually making more of your money by having people below you. And so I was thinking about that, and how like at a certain point it's not even getting higher it's them getting lower.

Dr. Val: I read it. And, um, you know, I've watched enough of those documentaries because they're fascinating. I'm like, how did you fall for that? I think that's the same question, you know, that Andrew and I were talking about like, how do people fall for this? Knowing that it's a sham, it's not healthy, it's hurting everybody and people are still signing up. And so, you know, now I'm like, I need to go watch another one of those documentaries and, and make some connections to Whiteness because, just from my vantage point, I always thought those folks needed a sense of community. And that's where they were looking for it.

Dr. JPB: But that's actually a good point which this is not in the book but you know supplement here. They're looking for a community but it's a community that's based on something that's not real. So they do find what it resembles… the community, but they are still on a work trip. Like… [laughs]

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: Right, it may be on a cruise boat but it's still a work trip. [laughing]

Dr. JPB: Yeah, you're still like, selling leggings or whatever it is. [humorously]

Dr. Val: That's the one I was thinking about. [laughing]

Dr. JPB: Yeah and I'm not talking about specific ethnicities that are often placed within Whiteness like Italians, Greeks, or whatever. I'm saying but just it is the White part that is the community, it's just like so then what is it that you actually have in common? Besides that you're not these other people.

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: Yeah it's fascinating. And this idea that kind of, the construction of Whiteness… you know I've I've come across in the past. The piece that did feel sort of new to me was this disability piece. And you talk about kind of race and disability being constructed alongside of each other. Um and we hinted at it a little bit earlier and I wonder if we can go a little deeper and you sort of explain how that shows up. What that looks like in terms of the construction of the need to talk about like ordered and disordered, or ability and disability.

Dr. JPB: Yeah I feel like I'm doing my comprehensive exam here. [chuckles]

Andrew: [laughing] You already got the letters. You're good.

Dr. JPB: Um, I mean so I sort of, I mentioned it briefly and I said we would come back to it, so here we are. Um you know like obviously there've always been people who we would recognize as having some sort of impairment. People born who are missing a leg or something you know that's obviously always been true to some extent and every society dealt with different groups of people differently. But in more recent society like, Native Americans if something happened they found a way for you to be involved in the community in some capacity, right? And that was basically the case in early like America before the revolution. But then everything industrialized and then it was like, well now you can't work and now you’re…

Andrew: You’re of no value.

Dr. JPB: Yeah, right. So like it's not… it's those things. And also obviously capitalism is at work here, right? So it's not just that. If you want the whole thing you read the book but that's the short version.

So of course industrialization is happening and slavery's ending. And now all of these people, we don't know what to do with them. We, well we still don't really know what to do with them. We really didn't know what to do with them at that point. If they would do something that we would see is perfectly rational like trying to flee or talking back to somebody or something like that. We diagnose them as mentally ill. And then often they came out of slavery physically impaired because they had been enslaved and then of course civil war happens in a lot of people coming out of there and they need help. So all these things are happening at the same time And these people can't, quote unquote, ‘can't’ work and they all sort of get slid into an underclass in the way that the society views people.

And then when you look at, to tie it to the sort of whole idea of the book, the language that's used diagnosing people and language that’s used by the people who have the power to write these diagnoses out, you see how groups of people can be over classified into categories of disorder, and then when you think about the fact that like police were created to keep order, then you see how people being classified as not fitting within the order becomes a problem to be dealt with. And it justifies all manner of things that we do to people who we don't find to be worthwhile. So that's the short answer to that question which was not that short.

Dr. Val: Well, I mean, I'm, I'm having, um, mind blowing moment right now because I had never thought about, and it makes complete sense. Obviously. I never thought about, every Black enslaved person who emerged from slavery, having a disability as a result of all of that, like, you know, the mental strain, but additionally, like the physical toll of enslavement on a person's body. And so to think that everyone who survived and came out of that could actually be labeled as disabled today, like it's my first time even considering that as a possibility. Right. And how we didn't have the structure to support, not only Black people, but millions of disabled people as well.

Dr. JPB: Yeah even if you know, on a plantation for like six months, something’s going to happen to you.

Dr. Val: Correct! Like, you're not okay after six months, you know, so certainly, you know, decades…

Dr. JPB: And even just being there if you are aware of the fact that you are not free to go.

Dr. Val: Correct. Yeah. I just, I never, I never thought about the scope of that and our inability to do anything structurally, nationally to support folks in that way and how that would make such a significant impact just on education, let alone everything else. Right.

Andrew: Our lack of desire right? I mean I don’t think it's actually an inability, like were we to want to, we probably could do something about that.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. But no yeah there's a way in which it then becomes a justification you know you talk a lot in the book about this kind of, and I think we talked about it last time too, that you know people don't want to tie themselves to things that feel like morally wrong. And so you look at a population of people exiting institution of slavery all with you know, some collective trauma with these challenges the only way to not be kind of consumed with guilt about that is to de-humanize.

And so it does, it does make that easier in my mind at least to see the connection between Whiteness and ability, or Blackness and disability that you know all these ways that we try to dehumanize people to justify the ways that if we need a hierarchy of people, which you know I think there are plenty of ways to imagine a society that doesn't need that. But if you have an extractive capitalistic society that requires hierarchy to put somebody on the bottom you have to dehumanize them in some way. And this is a tool for that.

Dr. JPB: If you have empathy for people with less than you then the society can't continue as it is. Right? I mean not an individual person, but like if a group of people has empathy for the people with less than them then society can't continue. Cause there's too many people who see that there's an issue. Things will have to change at that point.

Andrew: Revolution, something, yeah.

Dr. JPB: Um yeah exactly. So something. Because we all make small compromises here and there, right? I would prefer not to have a car but like it just became more convenient when we had the kid and all that. So I was like I hate that thing, not the kid, the car. [laughs]

Andrew: [laughing] That's a good clarification.

Dr. JPB: So when things are a little bit larger even then people sort of make calculations so they can live with themselves. And I think that when the sort of master narrative, the story we're all being told at the same time tells you that the way you're living is okay, it's a lot easier to just listen to it than to -what now, you're going to step out from that? Which is what people who are listening to the show are trying to do, but now the way that this society is constructed you're not supposed to find community in stepping out of that. We're doing it anyway, but this society doesn't want you to find community in stepping out from the story it's telling. And so it's harder for us to find each other and then build.

Andrew: I mean yeah that's that's why we're here right? Like that's, that is the, that's the mission here is like, let's be the community for when people want to step out of that. But even then like we're finding one way to step out. None of us has like fully stepped out of all of the exploitative systems. We are all still living on stolen land, we are all still watching the planet burn. You know, I tried, I try to find ways to step out where I can but it is um you can sort of like only pick so many battles too.

Dr. JPB: Yeah I mean when you talk about how in the book I'm sort of reflecting on things that I think I did wrong, and I was wrong about the things that were happening to me actually having much more to do with racism than I expected. But that wasn't me doing things wrong. When I was actually doing things wrong was when I was teaching those first several years. Now, look every teacher when it's young, they make mistakes and so forth. But the ideologies that I was espousing you know about what was wrong with their English, what they were doing wrong. This is what, I didn't have hardly any training. And the fact that I was able to get that job without much training is another thing I talk about in the book.

But anyway, I really did connect with the students, I was good at that. Like I was actually really good at connecting with them. That's why I stayed in education, but I still was just thinking of the way that they and other Koreans spoke English as wrong as opposed to the way that they need to communicate.

My friends and I when we were there it was a common thing to sort of laugh at the street signs there, because it was always like just slightly off English and the signs and so forth. And legitimately some of those things the way that the things get messed up like it just it's, it looks like another word and you laugh and all that, but when you, when we talked about it more and like now with the perspective I have of realizing that you know, we were doing some of this stuff to justify our presence there. I say this in the book specifically, if the adults can't make the right street signs then we really need to help these kids speak English the right way.

Andrew: Right. With all the air quotes around ‘right’.

Dr. JPB: Right. And I can't go back in and do that you know? So I am hoping that all groups of people, language educators but anyone involved in education, and as you say, it's really only the middle part that's about language education. It's just like the first third is all this other stuff. And then there's this language part, and then there's back to the other stuff.

Andrew: Yeah no, yeah, I mean the title language feels so powerful because of the way you kind of set it up. And we talked about formation of Blackness and Whiteness, about the formation of ideas around ability and disability, and then we get into this idea about language and kind of standard English and or what you've heard as standardized, you know kind of putting the emphasis on the intentionality around creating this. And the tool is slightly different but it seems like the effect is the same right? Where there are these ways that we are trying to replicate hierarchy, whether it's what your skin tone is, whether it's your kind of your ability or disability status and then you know how you talk. And I mean now that you say it it's like obviously. We judge people on how they talk immediately. There's you know code switching, the ways that people present themselves, how they… what type of language they use is obviously indicators for social status. But I don't know that I had tied it as directly to Whiteness in my mind. Can you help, you know, help us make that link?

Dr. JPB: Yeah, I didn't really just want to write this book for language teachers. Right? I wanted to appeal to people who aren't just literally language teachers. And the reason I bring that up is because I think that this is a connection, an avenue I guess that should be outside of the little language space. I mean this goes to sort of the idea of racial linguistic ideologies which is not my idea. This is Flores and Rosa, but talking about how race and language are co-constructed. So the body that the language is coming out of matters, in the way that the language is perceived. And then vice versa, that when the language comes out of the right person, then like the language also gains extra power. So this is how you'll get less qualified English teachers in a lot of foreign countries making a lot more money than much more qualified teachers of color because in a lot of places that are hiring teachers, they, you know, simply associate a certain look with the right English and English skills, right? And that's within the language field. But like, you can see that if you look at actual, like English teaching, you can see it with the way that professional norms around writing exclude lots of different forms of English. And so you know all of these things that people probably think are just about language themselves, or they might think it's racist depending on what the thing is, but they're still not quite crisscrossing recent language in their head. You know, the point that Flores and Rosa and many other scholars have made and that I'm piggybacking on that connection is that um there is no disembodied language, right?

Andrew: It’s not like there's a version of English that just lives in the dictionary all by itself that various people try to use. That who is using the language is always an integral part of how communication happens.

Dr. JPB: Well right, because if it's just the dictionary then you're ignoring who put it in the dictionary. And what they wanted it to represent when it was put there, and what wasn't put in the dictionary, or hasn't yet been put in the dictionary. I think one of the things that people get hung up on when I talk about these things is that they say, [in a humorous exasperated tone] “well you’re just not going to teach English?” Um, and because this is what they say… you know, they're like, “Well there would be no rules. And how would you understand each other?” And it's just…

Dr. Val: Exactly. I hear that.

Dr. JPB: Just like, alright calm down. Um, which I didn't say don't teach English. What I've said, and I say this a bunch of times, is like teach the English that the students are likely to speak. You know if they are in New York, teach them English that they're going to hear in their community.

Andrew: It’s not like the teaching of English is how we came to understand each other. Right, the fear that if we don't teach English we won't understand each other ignores the fact that for many many many thousands of years prior to teaching English, we still found a way to understand each other.

Dr. JPB: Yeah. It's just that teaching English is supposed to accelerate the learning that’s probably going to happen anyway. So I don't want people to think that I'm saying don't teach the language. I think that I'm saying both that the way we use the language is really important. Like we have to be careful when we're using certain words. Like I've talked a few times about how like the ability to function in societies, use like in like official documents. And you're like but what, what does that mean?

Andrew: Right

Dr. JPB: Like how did that get there? Um and…

Andrew: And why is it your inability to function in this society and not society's inability to function with you in it?

Dr. JPB: Right. You know and so I'm saying both that the way we use the language is important, and also on the other side, um the way that we teach the language is just following all of the same ideologies of the rest of the things we do, unless we recognize that and actually challenge it in our work. Because I'm not saying don't teach, I'm saying like, we just really have to think carefully, and this is for language teaching but it's for teaching in general, carefully about the way we are either upholding power or distributing it or whatever it is. There’s going to be some power in that classroom. We can all pretend that the teacher doesn't have any power and that's just foolish, cause we know like we do have some power in that room, um and the way you use it is important. So I ask people to think about that.

Andrew: There's a… I feel like there is a tension in this. This feels like a really kind of great example of it. And it's not the only one, but I think about this a lot. It is like we want to create a different world, and so we want to create a system where kids can like live into and then create a different world, and kids have to live in the current world. And it feels like you know this idea of kind of like standardized English is a great example of this. Like, you know, sort of fundamentally language is about communication, your, you know Korean students are able to communicate just fine that doesn't make their language wrong. There’s a like world that we would like to create which I think is actually like a much richer more vibrant, you know more creative place which is that everybody is able to communicate in whatever way kind of suits them best and we are all able to accept that and hear that and I think we're probably all richer for it. And we don't live in that world yet. And, and so as you're thinking about students and teaching them English, like there is a value, like you, your ability to function in the academic space is tied to your ability to, you know, I think you talk about early in the introduction of the book about like you are, you're very fluent and comfortable in standardized English. You may choose not to use it sometimes but you're like access to that is part of a thing that gives you access to education, access to power, access to know sort of elite spaces, you know. How do we both create a world in which we don't need that hierarchy that is baked into language, but also like, set kids up to be successful in the world they currently live in?

Dr. JPB: Yeah I don't know. It's kind of the existential question about everything, isn't it? Right? The big question man. Um I mean, I tried to give frank, pragmatic advice towards the end, both for language and then towards like White readers in general. And, what I tried to do was give advice that is, I want to say, straightforward but challenging. Like, we talked last time about checklists, like I don't like making lists like that.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. JPB: But if you look carefully at what I wrote after each list item, it’s like a whole paragraph of like stuff to do. And you know all of those things are going to take a lot of work and planning. I try to give advice that people who are working in the field can take with them and actually act upon. And you know, the same thing for the advice I give to White readers at the end. Like none of them are things that are just going to be easy but it's also not supposed to be easy, and it's not supposed to be fast. And my advice for how to balance that with the reality of what's happening now and how to like, get on from day to day… I just think people should just do the best they can while they keep plugging at this but they have to not stop.

Andrew: But I, you know I think about like your Korean students. There's a version of you know, encouraging them and giving them the kind of confidence boost they might need to feel good about expressing themselves in a way that is effective but maybe not quote-unquote ‘correct’. And they probably feel good about that. And if they then want to come and get a job in the United States are like are their options limited? Because you know there is the expectation of standardized language.

Dr. JPB: Well I try to acknowledge that and I say you know standardized English isn't really going anywhere. I'm not even saying we should get rid of standardized English, I'm saying we just need to contextualize it correctly. And I think it can be taught effectively if it was called standardized English when you take the class.

I mean obviously just changing the name is not, you know, enough because people love to just change the name of things and you don't do anything. But, I mean, by classifying it as standardized English, it simply becomes a class, like some other school subject. And it's just something people are learning, but it's not supposed to be reflective of what is ideal in their society.

Dr. Val: Right. Because it, as a former English teacher, like when I didn't teach standardized English, it felt like we were breaking the rules. Or when I let kids, you know, just be themselves, it felt like we were breaking the rules. And we did have to have explicit conversations about the times in which we have to use certain types of speech. Right. And I think naming that honors, however people show up. Right. Like, which we should affirm anyway. So yeah. That's dope.

Andrew: And there's a way that if you put the context around it, then you start to take the um, like unearned value away from it. Right? It's like, here is like one way to communicate. It is not the right way. It is not way by which we should judge the value of somebody, but rather it one one tool in our arsenal of communication

Dr. JPB: I mentioned in there that you could call it model English because you know, it's like a model home because like nobody actually uses it. [Andrew and Val laugh] I think that a lot of the power in all of these hierarchies comes from um, either them not being named or them having chosen the names themselves.

Andrew: Yeah just changing the name of something doesn’t mean anything, but it is a good place to start and sort of calling attention. I mean I appreciate the language you use in the book, and you know, not standard English but standardized English. And then your podcast which we haven't talked about yet, um, as a good time as any plug which is Unstandardized English . Where does that title come from and why should people listen to the podcast?

Dr. JPB: Well, I started the podcast long before I got the book sorted out. Right? So I was thinking of what to call my podcast, which had a much narrower focus back then. Like it was very specifically about I was going to take one word and talk about it's, like connections to race, that were often not spoken of. Like the first episode was about expats and immigrants. Right. I mean, it means the same thing, but, but, you understand, right?

Andrew: They don’t mean the same thing, right? Yeah.

Dr. JPB: Yeah. So yeah. But then I lost focus because like I said, I have ADHD. So a couple of episodes in, I didn't focus and I was off talking about some other stuff. Um, so, but I kept the name of the podcast as Unstandardized English because I still technically speak about language a lot of the time. But I just, I tend to use language as an entry point into analyzing other things.

Dr. Val: Yeah, people should definitely check out your podcast and knowing that you just finished this book, this dissertation, you must have lots of time on your hands. What have you been thinking about?

Dr. JPB: When I really did get to stop and think, I thought about my family, like, I thought that, you know, you get a million like ancestry ads, like in your email. I took it, I took it. I actually did it this time, and you know, I said, let me follow the thread back to where it's like, I would have to pay basically. Right? Like, just follow until the free records stop. And I found out that like the records, my family stopped in one town in South Carolina. And I was thinking about that. I was thinking about how the first several censuses that they show up on it's just like ‘illiterate laborer’. And so I just thought about that and just thinking about how that's probably all they were allowed to ever be. And I, you know, thought specifically, because it's a degree that's tied to education, um, that I wonder where it would take me and I wonder what they would think of it.

Andrew: Talk a little bit about your son. You started the Ezel Project around the time he was born, you had mentioned it last time. He is now no longer a tiny baby. Tell us about Ezel and the world you hope to be part of creating for him.

Dr. JPB: Ezel. Yeah, he's, you know, he's really, really a person now, you know? Like back then I was, I really had no idea what he would really be like. I mean, he was months old. He’s starting to have a little personality. So, you know, I mean, it's, it's just, it's really interesting to see. I hadn't hardly had any interaction with other parents when I was on here last because it was 2020. And now in these two years, cause he's been at daycare for about a year and a little bit now and being on playgrounds and he'll actually somewhat play with other kids now. So you talk to other parents and like, yeah, the little kids, the little, little kids, like they may notice skin color, because the studies from however many months old, right. They notice, but they're not seeing stuff they've been taught. But, um, but then you hear stuff from these parents, man. [laughs] And it's, it's all the type of stuff that I wouldn't have recognized as being tied to race when I was younger, you know? The stuff, the assumptions, you know the good schools, the, that sort of thing. And we're like, he's two, you know? Well, two and a half.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I wish there was a time that that didn't matter. And my conversations as a parent with other parents, but it's always present. And, um, I'm thankful for parents like Andrew, who can talk to me honestly about these things and give me the scoop. Um, because I don't know that I… you know, you say good schools, Andrew. And if I said good schools back in the day, like we would have meant totally different things. And I think sometimes we still do, right. Like what constitutes a good school for my brown kid, you know? So, um, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for elevating that.

Dr. JPB: I had some friends who, I guess I'm not really surprised in retrospect, from what I know about them. They talked the big game, you know, in 2020 and then, you know, they moved to like, it's really hard to get as White as the area they moved to in the New York area, uh, for the schools. That's why, with all this stuff, it's like, it is really important how people live. Not just what they say, you know?

Andrew: It's much easier to say the right stuff.

Dr. Val: It is.

Andrew: Yeah. So as you think about the world that you want to be part creating for your son, you went all the way back to as far as the free version of ancestry.com would take you in your in your lineage, and then, and you know sort of thinking about about him, if you know whatever, however many generations later somebody is looking back on kind of this part of your family's trajectory, what do you what do you hope they see? What do you hope kind of comes of that?

Dr. JPB: Yeah, that's, that's why I've been thinking about this since I graduated. You know, I’m the first doctor that I found on there, just specifically speaking of the people with my last name. I just thought that was cool. I, um, I didn't really get to, so, in feeling like I succeeded because I, I was just so busy, until this summer and just a whole bunch of nights when I got to just really think about exactly what you're just asking me.

And you know, I just hope that however many people buy this book that it, uh, just stays in a few shelves. And if anyone reads it and they do decide they want to challenge things a little bit in the field, then I feel like that'll be something that… when a few generations down the lines on whatever future version of ancestry we're on from under the water, [Andrew laughs] they, they, they're able to find whatever their, you know, land-based ancestor was about. [Everyone laughs]

Andrew: He didn't even have gills.

Dr. Val: Oh my gosh! That's a very important, very important point.

Andrew: Yeah, well I mean the book, you know you talk about in terms of the field of English language teaching, it was ostensibly written for that. It is called Antisocial Language Teaching: English and the Pervasive Pathology of Whiteness. But it is certainly, I don't, I've never taught English. Um, I've never taught anything. I'm not, I'm not in education.

Dr. Val: You teach all the time. Andrew, stop right there.

Andrew: Thank you Val, I feel like I set you… I lobbed that one over the plate for you. [Val laughs] Um but I just, I got so much out of it. You definitely don't have to be in the field of education to um, come away with a deeper understanding of how we got to where we are and how to get to a potentially better place. So I think it's really a contribution and I’m grateful you wrote it and grateful you came back on the show.

Dr. Val: Thank you doctor.

Dr. JPB: Yeah, I was glad to be here and I'm glad you enjoyed it. Because, I don’t know, I wrote that thing with my whole chest, so hopefully…

Andrew: It reads that way for sure. For sure.

Dr. Val: Definitely reads like you wrote it with your whole chest. [laughing]

Andrew: Yup Yup.

Dr. Val: For sure.

Andrew: Thank you very much.

Dr. Val: Thank you.

Dr. JPB: Thank you.

--------------------------

Andrew: So, Val, what did you think?

Dr. Val: Yeah, so I really wanna dig into this pyramid scheme idea because I'm fascinated by it and I think a lot of what I see in it is a search for people to find some community. So the idea that Whiteness serves as that just really struck me. So give me all the White insights please. [both chuckle]

Andrew: Yeah. I don't, I don't know. I mean, I think that need for community, the need to feel like you belong, is really powerful. And this idea that it starts out as maybe there is something, but pretty soon like you just belong to it for the sake of it, right? That like…

Dr. Val: Mmmmm….

Andrew: …really what you are into is the community and the product sort of becomes secondary. I'm not sure what Whiteness was originally selling that was real, because I don't think there's ever been, been anything like real tied behind Whiteness. But this idea that if you kind of question it, if you look at it too closely and you say, wait, we're not actually selling anything here, that so much of your kind of, not only self-identity, but also community starts to fall apart.

Dr. Val: Yeah. It's interesting. I do think they were selling something real. It was the treatment of Black and Brown and other folks, right? So they were selling that you wouldn't get treated this way, you know, if you came into the Whiteness fold. And so I do think it was a very real thing they were trying to convince people to buy into. And I still wonder now why it works in 2022, right? Yeah. Like how is that still so effective?

And, Dr. Gerald talks about how language plays a role in communicating these ideas in a way that if we aren't thoughtful and interrogate the things that we say, um, how we're using language to exclude or include, to promote some folks who are better at “standardized language” than others. How we treat people who might not have the same vocabulary, and so we do all play a role in this Whiteness pyramid scheme, and sometimes even as people of color who also don't want that feeling of isolation or separation, or you just need just access to things that the language, being able to engage in the standardized language allows you to achieve.

Andrew: Yeah. Talk a little bit about your relationship to standardized English.

Dr. Val: I mentioned that, you know, whenever I didn't teach standardized English, I felt like I was breaking the rules. Um, and I have this weird relationship probably with code switching. I don't know that I do it a whole lot. Hopefully not a whole. But I am sure I am modeling to my young people how to do that in an instance where I feel like it is in their best interest for safety reasons. Um, and I hate it. I hate feeling that way. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, like what's lost in that? Like, I see that, the need, and I feel like I come up against this in all sorts of realms, and we sort of got into it a little bit in the episode. But like, there is the world that we would like to create and then there's the world we live in. And like, you know, I think the way that we judge school quality based solely on test scores is bad. And I think that your ability to do well on a test in this moment, as much as I think that shouldn't be a gateway to access, you know, to opportunities, in many ways it is. And so, you know, we can say, well, like standardized tests don't determine how valuable a person is. And I believe that. And if we don't ever teach kids how to take standardized tests, there's like a world of opportunity that gets closed off.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Like what's lost in forcing people into the box of standardized English? What's lost when you feel the need to go to your neighbor and kind of present a, you know, more palatable version of yourself to your neighbor for safety's sake. I mean, I don't understand. I can imagine the need for that. And it feels like there's something that, that gets lost in that. There's like a part of you that's not allowed to show up or something.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I was in a conversation this weekend with a friend and a colleague. He just got his doctorate. He studied Black teachers at a historically Black high school locally that, um, after desegregation was closed. But one thing that came up in his conversations with the alumni he interviewed is that many of the teachers did not have to, because of Jim Crow, did not have to engage with White folks on the same level that integration required people who came after them.

Andrew: Mmmmm

Dr. Val: To deal with them, right? So in most instances, Black communities were pretty isolated. You had all your businesses and everything else.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: You only interacted with White folks on rare occasions that you like, worked for them…. You weren't visiting the same places. And my grandmother said the same thing. I remember asking her once, I was like, so talk to me how you dealt with racism. She was like, “we didn't, we weren't around a lot of White people. Like it just was not a thing.” And so teachers in that time, to prepare Black students for integration, had to teach them this language, and how to access this particular piece of communication and power in order to just survive. Right? And it was a, it was a both-and situation. Like yes, you are fully whole here and when you go out into the world, I'm going to need you for your survival, for your hopeful thriving, to be able to operate in this space as well. And so it does feel like a tricky place to be for our young people.

I want for the future, right, for our folks to be better than we have been, whatever that means. And I think that's probably why I'm struggling with, like a measure, right? So I don't know that it's, I don't know that it's measured in how well they write a formal essay or how well they communicate on a podcast or whatever. I don't know that it's that, but I want them to be better than what we have been. So how can we make space for our young people to be better without like, putting them in a box. I don't know that it's as simple as saying, here, you can speak this way amongst your friends and that you have to speak this way at work. Because I imagine a workplace where young people, all people can show up. And we can make strides to understand each other better, versus like, trying to put them in the standardized way of being.

Andrew: And I mean, my guess would be is that that workplace is a better workplace. Like, you know, like people are more fully themselves, people are able to show up, they're able to be you know, present in ways that they wouldn't otherwise, and you get more rich, you know, like all the reasons that every, and I, I think I go back a little bit to Dr. Clark, you know, in this like mosaic versus melting pot idea. Where like standardized English is sort of the melting pot. I mean, it's not really, it's like a very, you know, sort of, it's like the melting pot that is then strained and filtered and…

Dr. Val: Right, right…

Andrew: … dyed more White along the way. But like, there's a way in which the, you know, standardized English is sort of forcing, conformity is forcing people to melt together. And there's a way in which a mosaic, that allows all sorts of different…. I think about, like the loss of, you know, we talked to, Dr. Faircloth…

Dr. Val: mm-hmm.

Andrew: …about the loss of Native languages and, and what sort of like, ideas and concepts and ways of making sense of the world get lost when we lose a language. We suffer the same fate, I think, when we force everyone to communicate in the same way. And you look at small communities, and I think even about like, you know, middle school kids when they talk to each other, have what feels sometimes like code language. You're like, I have no idea what you're talking about. But it allows a deeper, more meaningful form of connection between them and so, we need to find a way to communicate with each other. I think people are pretty good at finding ways to communicate. It's what we've been doing since there have been people and, can we sort of take some of the stigma out of different ways of communicating in order to allow that to kind of flourish and what does that look like?

Dr. Val: Yeah, and I think we have to be honest about the violence and, um, that was required to establish the standardized language. Like this wasn't…

Andrew: Mmmhmm…

Dr. Val: “Hey, we wanna invite you all into this language that we can all share.” No, it was beat out of people or beat into people. Right. And so, you know, when we talk about power and how that particular, like how our standardized language came to be, it wasn't because people weren't fighting to keep their own ways of expression. Right?

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: And so the future that I imagine like it forces us to open up to the possibilities. Whenever I have a chance to, and it's usually through some form of media book or a movie or text to just even have a glimpse of a culture that I am not a part of, like my heart expands. I'm like, oh man, what a beautiful way to think about this thing that I just never could have imagined, because I don't have the language you know, for that. Right. But other people do, and I think that's, I think that's really incredible and powerful and we miss out on a lot if we force this standardized language. Um, I don't have all the answers. I don't… What does that mean for tests? I don't know. We'll figure it out. Like you said, we've been figuring it out, we’ll figure it out. But I think it'll push us to think about what's more important. And it's these beautiful ideas that people have, not how neatly they're packaged in a standardized way.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah I love that. Like Dr. Gerald said, like, right, it's not, the answer is not that we don't teach anybody any of the rules of the English language or, you know, spelling or grammar or any of those things, but it, but it's about removing some of the stigma around alternate forms of communication, ways that people have been communicating forever that don't fit neatly into this box and recognizing this, you know, kind of standardized version of English as just one potential tool for communication in sort of the toolbox of communication. And there may be times where it's appropriate and hopefully we find more times where that is not appropriate. But there are also other times where other forms of communication are more appropriate or more effective.

Dr. Val: Yeah, for sure. And to be open to those. I think that's really important because I am sure I've unintentionally judged someone who didn't communicate in a way that I did.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And this is, I'm not even talking about language per se, but just any expression, right? I'm like, hey, this is how I wanna, I wanna graphically draw this idea versus someone who decides to write it out in the written word. And so checking myself this, these are always checks on my own heart. I hope listeners are feeling the same, right? They're always like checking their own hearts and you know, when you brought up the young people example, sometimes I have no idea what my kids are talking about [both laugh] you know, but being open to understanding that that way of communicating is really meaningful for them.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: They have something to teach me. Um, and hopefully, you know, they understand that I have something to teach them as well.

Andrew: Yeah. Because that right, it facilitates more efficient communication between... They communicate ideas better with each other, which allows them not only to, you know, kind of get ideas across more quickly, but also I think that particularly when it is not standardized, creates a sense of community. We are speaking in this kind of thing, so we are on the inside. And I think there's a way in which probably standardized Whiteness… standard. Well, there's some Freud…

Dr. Val: Yeah, there is…

Andrew: … Standardized English is, you know, is this kind of like we, we are part of the club. We are, we are, we are on the inside.

Dr. Val: Oh yeah.

Andrew: And, and so the ability to use it is like the, is like the, the code word, it's like the gateway into this, this club.

Dr. Val: Dang, dang. That doggon pyramid got me. I do feel like sometimes, okay, oh, this is, this is upsetting. This is upsetting to me listeners where I'm like, okay, I know how to speak this language. So I am part of the club, but I also don't wanna be part of the club in that way. But I know I have, I can be if I wanted to, and I use it when I have to, and I don't like that.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: It makes me feel gross…

Andrew: Yeah, I can imagine. And I think there's, but there's like, there's a way in which the more spaces you have access to because of that, the more you can push those spaces to not focus on that so much, the more you can like…

Dr. Val: That’s my hope.

Andrew: …bring that access to then open up the door for other people.

Dr. Val: Well, my hope is that it's, it's a bridge in some way.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, it was a rich conversation for sure. Um, here we are, the action step portion of the episode. Val, as we are doing this season, what action steps are you left with out of this conversation with Dr. Gerald?

Dr. Val: Yeah. My action steps include, like checking how I'm responding, you know, like my internal responses to different forms of language expression. Having some wonderings about, kind of what I'm feeling about it, and specifically with my young people, trying not to force them in a box, but as an adult, like push on that box that they are all in so that it makes more space for them. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I like that. I think for me, which I feel like is probably our, our action step in just about every episode, but is like whatever the conversations that I'm gonna have with my kids out of this. And one of them I think is sort of constantly thinking about how do I make sure they are aware of the privilege that they have without it, like, crippling them or without making them feel bad about it, you know? Um, but I think this, the access to standardized English is something that will come relatively easy to them. That they have been exposed to for a long time, and helping them be aware of the way that that is a privilege. And so, you know, helping to kind of destigmatize the ways in which people communicate that aren't, maybe, don't fall into this kind of standardized bucket.And help them see the ways in which their access to that is one of the...

Dr. Val: Mmmmm.

Andrew: …privileges that they walk around the world with.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, uh, I wanna make sure that I'm using this ability to talk and talk for good.

Andrew: Yeah. That's hard.

Dr. Val: I never wanna get too comfortable.

Andrew: Mmm. Mmm

Dr. Val: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. So I think my other action step out of this is recognizing the moments where my access to language makes me comfortable. And kind of trying to be aware of those and think about what voices might be getting lost in that moment. What ideas might be getting lost in those moments.

Dr. Val: Yeah. It's comfort with the ‘standardized Whiteness’ as you, um, Freudian slipped there. And how like, your comfort level with that, one's comfort level with that, by default makes you less fluent or less comfortable with other forms of expression.

Andrew: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: And I think that's where like, the judgment and the biases kind of pop up. And so how do I continue to challenge myself to make sure that I'm not like sitting in that comfort.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, that is huge. And I think in a conversation with people who have different forms of communication, different, you know, ability to bring ideas out in different ways. When your desire is really to hear somebody, to hear the ideas they're saying in a group setting, the ideas that are easier to understand are the ideas that you're gravitating towards, right? The ideas that you're like, oh yeah, I get that right away because of the way you presented that are the ones that then get elevated in that space.

Dr. Val: Mmmmm.

Andrew: And so thinking about how do we create spaces where we can push back on that, where we can hold off on that, we can say, wait a minute, there's another idea in here that's not being communicated in quite the same way, but that doesn't mean it's less valuable.

Dr. Val: And that's why in our PTA meetings, voices might not get heard, even though someone is communicating like, they are letting you know what they need and want. But because it is different from the standardized language or Whiteness, we ignore those. And you know, you might be uncertain with communicating with someone who communicates outside of, like, the standardized way, right? And then that makes it feel really awkward and strange and you're like, I don't know if I'm gonna say the right thing or if I'm gonna say the wrong thing. Um, instead of like, being fully present to what they have to offer. Right. One also loses, you know, when they're in their head about that thinking like, there's no way we can connect cuz we don't speak the same language.

Andrew: Right. And then, yeah. Yeah. Then like the draw is either to just shut it down, this is awkward, this doesn't work, whatever. Or the other, like the danger on the other side I think is then you like, fall into imitation in a way that is like, you know, kind of code switching for bad.

Dr. Val: Yeah,

Andrew: Oh, well, let me just try to talk like you, and…

Dr. Val: Please don't… [laughs]

Andrew: …now you’re not bringing your full authentic self to the conversation.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. I love it when White people are just White. Just be White. It's fine. It's fine. You don't have to like, call me ‘child’. “Hey, chile” or whatever. I don't like No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Just be White. That's fine. [laughing]

Andrew: Yes. Well, my other suggested action step for listeners is to buy the book.

Dr. Val: My other action step is, listen to this podcast. Think about it. Think about how language and power and Whiteness is showing up for you. I will say that in my conversation with you friend, I was able to elevate some ideas that I could not have received on my own. So I wanna thank you for being in conversation with me weekly about these topics.

Andrew: Oh, well, thank you, Val. I totally feel the same way. That is the true gift of these conversations for me as well is the different perspectives and the ability to surface things. I certainly see things in a new light every time we talk, and I'm grateful for that.

Dr. Val: For sure.

Andrew: And if you are grateful for it, listeners, getting to be a little piece of these conversations, we would be grateful for your support. patreon.com/integratedschools. Come and join us. Come meet us up for a happy hour. Check out the facilitation questions. Throw us a few dollars every month to help keep making this podcast. We'd be very grateful.

Dr. Val: Yes. Thank you so much. Also, share with your friends. Listen, share, talk about it. Make sure people know, uh, the good things that are happening on this podcast and in your life.

Andrew: Well, it's a pleasure as always, Val, to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time….