S9E4: What’s up with the suburbs?: Organizing, Building Relationships, and Voting

S9E4: What's up with the suburbs?: Organizing, Building Relationships, and Voting

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver,

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is What's Up with The Suburbs: Organizing, Building Relationships, and Voting.

Dr. Val: That sounds like a really important episode.

Andrew: Yes. And that's why it is dropping in your feeds in this off-week. You may not have been expecting to hear from us, but here we are because we want to talk about the suburbs, but also because we are just a few days away from the midterm elections.

Dr. Val: That's right. We believe voting is important. So do you have your voting plan, sir?

Andrew: I already voted. In Colorado. It's lovely. They send us our ballots in the mail. You fill it out, you drop it off in a dropbox or you mail it back. Uh, and it all happens before Election Day. If you wanna go on Election Day, you can. So, yes, I have already voted. How about you?

Dr. Val: Same. I believe in early voting and the first day of early voting, I was there in person. It took me five minutes or less. I left with a voting sticker that said “I voted early”, cuz they have upgraded those now

Andrew: Oh man, that's fancy!

Dr. Val: Uh, yeah. And uh, I think it's important that we take every measure we can to create the future that we want.

Andrew: Yeah. This, uh, season we've been focusing on action steps and certainly one action step I would definitely encourage listeners to get out there and vote.

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: And so today, you know, voting is really important, but we also wanted to talk about what's going on in the suburbs. One thing that's going on in the suburbs is people are voting. And they're voting in ways that maybe they haven't in the past. And I think part of that is about the popular conception of what the suburbs is does not actually match what they, what they currently are.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Growing up, I definitely had a fixed idea about the suburbs. I assumed that they were for White and affluent people, people of privilege. We live in the suburbs now. When we started looking for a house here, we would drive around with our realtor who was, who was a Black man, and I'm like, “Are there Black people around here?”

Uh, because one of the values for me was for the kids to grow up in diverse neighborhoods, right? The neighborhoods where they get to interact with a lot of different people. I think they are beautiful and I think they model the world that we wanna create. And so I would ask our realtor, “Are there, there any Black people here?” He's like, “Yeah, we're everywhere!” And I'm like, “No way. Like that's a two car garage!”

[Laughter]

And so, I'm happy to report that there are lots of Black people in my neighborhood. And, my favorite neighbor, Mr. John, is also involved in organizing and encouraging people to vote. So I think this is, this is a beautiful example of what is happening in the suburbs, what we'll get into today.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, and so we're gonna get into it with Dr. Jasmine Clark, who is a microbiologist by training, but ended up sort of being radicalized in the wake of the 2016 election and deciding that she was going to get involved politically. Running for a state representative from a suburban district in Georgia. And in fact, being the first Black woman to win a race there, which I think speaks to the kind of changing demographics of the suburbs.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Congratulations Dr. Clark! And so on this episode we get to hear Dr. Clark's story, and I think it inspires us to continue to take our own action.

Andrew: That's right. Yeah. And we originally connected with her through Heather McGee, who suggested we connect with Red Wine and Blue, which is, an organization that started in Ohio and sort of spread out across the country now, who's organizing suburban women, as they say, trying to, you know, find a way for everybody to find a voice, everybody to get involved politically.

Uh, among many and many of their programs, one of the things they did was start a podcast, called The Suburban Women Problem Podcast. And, Dr. Clark is one of the co-hosts of that podcast.

Dr. Val: Clark. Awesome. It was nice to have another professional on here.

Andrew: That’s right! Yeah.

Dr. Val: Um, and unless people are in line listening to this episode, we need to go ahead and press play so they can get to voting.

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Dr. Jasmine Clark: Well, first I wanna say thank you all for inviting me on to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I am State Representative, Dr. Jasmine Clark, and I represent a House District here in the State of Georgia, House District 108, which is Gwinnett County.

The most diverse county in the State of Georgia and the second largest county in Georgia. I have, uh, served in our Georgia State Legislature since 2018. Still serving and hoping to continue to serve in our State Legislature.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Is it okay if we call you Dr. Jasmine?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Absolutely. Yeah. I get that question a lot. Like Dr. Jasmine? Representative Jasmine, or Representative Dr. Jasmine?

Andrew: Dr Representative? Yeah. Which goes, which goes first?

[Laughter]

Dr. Jasmine Clark: It's. Yeah, I, I, I respond to them all, just, you know, as long as it's respectful.

Dr. Val: You got it.

Andrew: Yes ma'am. Yes ma'am. You were, if I'm not mistaken, you were the first Black woman elected to, to represent that district. Is that right?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Absolutely. Not the first person of color, but definitely the first Black woman, which I think is a testament to just how much, uh, the quote, suburbs are changing and they want to be represented.

Andrew: Yeah. I wanna put a pin in that, ‘cause we definitely need to come back to that, that vision of the suburbs. But I definitely wanna, I wanna talk a little bit about Red Wine and Blue. Can you tell us a little bit about Red Wine and Blue, what it is, how it came to be and, and why you're a part of it?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: So a group of suburban women in Ohio, uh, really wanted to find a way to be very involved in elections. First in Ohio and then, you know, they kind of expanded from there. Basically women trying to find where they can get engaged. And so, uh, Red Wine and Blue did come down to Georgia during the runoff for John Ossoff and Rafael Warnock.

And that's really when I got involved. Katie Paris, one day out of the blue, she kinda was like, “Hm. Have you ever thought about podcasting?” And I was like, “Yeah, no, not really-

[Laughter]

-but I mean, I guess it's something I could do!”

Dr. Val: Welcome!

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Um, and here I am, a year and a half later. And I have been a podcast host on the Suburban Women Problem.

Red Wine and Blue itself has just been amazing at taking everyday people who maybe didn't think they could get involved and giving them the formula for how they can get involved. Everyone's not gonna be the person that's gonna be the public speaker. Everyone's not gonna be the person that's gonna, you know, run for office. But whatever you can do, they really, uh, help to link you with other people, like-minded people, and really give people the formula to get involved in whatever capacity they can.

And so, like right now, for the midterms, they have The Great Troublemaker Turnouts. And let's be honest, that's what we're doing, we're making some trouble. And, this is an opportunity for small groups of people to get together. Sometimes people who live in a, a red bubble feel like there is no one else that they can engage with.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: They get those people together and they say, “Hey, this is how you can, fight back against book bans.” “This is how you can stand up for trans kids who are being bullied by our government.” “This is how you can fight for reproductive rights.” “This is how you can fight for voting rights.” And they help people come together and figure out just exactly how to do that.

And I love it because you get people who have literally never engaged in politics at all, now coming in and saying, “Oh, I didn't think that I could do this and now that I can, I'm not stopping. And I'm gonna do this now, and I'm gonna do this.” And so, we're not just building relationships for an election, we're building relationships for issues. And I think that's what's important, cuz those issues don't go away after Election Day.

Andrew: Right. Um, why, why do you care? How did you come to find yourself, you know, engaged and involved? You're a microbiologist by, by training. Why politics, Why activism? You know, what brought you to that?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: So I'm gonna be really honest about this. In November of 2016, my worst nightmare came to fruition. On the second Tuesday of November, 2016, I went to sleep a scientist. And the next morning I woke up a mad scientist. And it was at that point that I said, “Oh no, I have got to do something!”

So that actually led me more into activism where I led the Atlanta March for Science. We had 10,000 people show up, just to say “We need to actually consider science when we're making policy in our state. And in our country.”

And then from there I, uh, joined the Georgia Alliance for Social Justice. And from there I sat down with my family and some of my friends and I said, “You know, guys, I think I might run for office.” And, I ran in an election that I was not projected to win. But I did win. I flipped a seat. That's how, how I really, ended up feeling like I needed to be involved. It started in 2016, but since 2016 there's been so much that has happened that I'm so glad I'm in the seat that I'm in. And, there's so much work that needs to be done.

Dr. Val: Dr. Jasmine, I'm, I'm having goosebumps listening to your story and I need the listeners to know, like, I have this big grin on my face! Because it's just so amazing! Your story and how that came to be, and you know, Andrew and I have talked previously about connecting to issues that connect us to other people.

And so, I think your story is a, is a great example of that, right? Like you had something that you were really passionate about and you're like, “How do I get involved and who can I get involved with?”

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Absolutely.

Andrew: Yeah, that's a great journey. From scientist to mad scientist. I love it. So, so you did win. You were not projected to win. You represent a suburban area in Georgia. And my guess is that you were not projected to win because of the vision that we have of the suburbs and the idea of, of a Black woman being elected in the suburbs as we, sort of, popular culture conceives of them, feels hard to imagine. But that's not actually the way the suburbs are anymore. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, you know, kind of, the changes in, in your district, but then also kind of broadly in, you know, the kind of mismatch between what we think of as the suburbs and what the suburbs actually are.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Absolutely. Even I have fallen into the trap of believing that the suburbs represent the White nuclear family, with the white picket fence, and the soccer mom filling up her van with little White children and driving them to the soccer field on Saturdays, and then, going to church on Sunday. You know, that is what we see in media. And that's really what a lot of people think of when they think of the suburbs.

However, I live in the suburbs and I realized my neighbor to my right, she is from India and she makes amazing tea. I have neighbors on the other side that are from Spanish speaking countries, and their ability to kind of switch back and forth between English and Spanish is something that I envy. I love it.

Dr. Val: Same.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: And I wish that I could do it.

I have neighbors from literally all over the world. Right here in my neighborhood. In our county, we have over a hundred different languages and dialects represented. And our county is very suburban. We have different faiths. Some people are going to church on Sunday, some people are going to synagogue, some people are going to the mosque. Some people are going to the Hindu temple.

There are people who look just like me, nice and chocolate brown, and all the way, you know, across the color spectrum.

Uh, I had a conversation with someone that talked about how saying something as a melting pot is probably not actually a good way of thinking about it, because a melting pot means that the goal is for everyone to all blend together and be one. I like to think of, uh, Gwinnett County and the suburbs of Georgia as more of a mosaic.

Where it's beautiful in all of its individual colors and the way everything fits together, we don't have to be monolithic. We don't all have to mesh together or melt together. We live together in a beautiful mosaic and that's the true suburbs for me.

Dr. Val: Dr. Jasmine, do you have any hypotheses about why that narrative of the “White soccer mom” suburb persists.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: I think it persists because the representation does not always look like what the suburbs looks like. So, just for example, despite what my area Lilburn looks like in real life, our City Council just elected the first Black and Korean mixed person to the City Council. Gwinnett County is just over 200 years old and we're just now starting to see people of color in positions of power.

Dr. Val: Wow. That says a lot.

[Val Laughs]

Dr. Jasmine Clark: It does! I mean, it really does. Um, for a long time our school board was the same way. They did not look like the, the beautifully diverse school system that we have here at all. If you just look at our student body, you would see how beautifully diverse we are. Yet our leadership, the front-facing people, the people with the platforms, did not look like what the suburbs actually look like. And it's been very difficult to change that.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I have a, I have a theory about, about this question, as well (and I wonder what you think of it, Dr. Jasmine). There's a way in which the kind of vision of suburban life as being mostly White, like, creates a permission structure, I think, for White folks to search out Whiteness. White folks who want to live in all White spaces or mostly White spaces. Where, what you can say that what you're looking for is the “suburban American dream life,” but what you're, what you're looking for is actually Whiteness. Like, “What I actually want is to raise my family surrounded by White people.”

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Andrew: “I feel like I can't say that, but I can say I want the suburbs.”

Dr. Jasmine Clark: I think you're right. I think you're right. Let's be honest, what the suburbs were historically was that. It was White families wanting to move away from having to live amongst non-White families. And it was that flight out of those spaces into their own communities. It's kind of like the suburbs were theirs and actually any movement into the suburbs by non-White people was more of an infiltration into their areas.

And we see this as, um, the suburbs do change. There are a lot of people who say things like, “We gotta take our communities back,” Basically what I interpret your theory as is “the suburbs” was supposed to be code for White. And then we kind of messed up the code, because everyone was like, “Look, I wanna live in an affordable house. I like yards. I like trees!” Like, I want-

Dr. Val: That’s it, Dr. Jasmine!

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Like, you know. That's not reserved for just White people. Like, other people want those things too!

Andrew: Yeah. No, yeah, I think that's totally right, and I don't think that your suburb is a fluke, right? I mean, I think this is what we see in suburbs across the country, that this is, this is really what's happening.

It's that contradiction between this vision that White people have been sold of the suburbs meaning White. And then there being more and more people of color in suburbs, that is leading to this tension that I think has been really capitalized on in an, in an, uh, you know, sort of scarily effective way by the Right Wing. In the, you know, push to ban books.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: fear-mongering.

Andrew: The fear-mongering around CRT, and all these things. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, how that's playing out in your district and what you see as kind of the, the role to push back on that?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: So I think, the pandemic did a lot, but one of the things the pandemic did, was just gave people way too much time on their hands.

[AndrewLaughs]

Andrew: Yeah!

Dr. Jasmine Clark: And so, then you got these people who were just mad. About everything. It was the perfect opportunity for people who were upset that their suburbs were not living up to their vision of the suburbs. To try to, in my opinion, grasp some power back.

Um, and the way they did that was by showing up to school board meetings and first, just being mad that the school board changed, in general. Like, “The school board is changing. It doesn't look like what it looked like, so that must mean our schools are gonna be horrible now.”

And that's literally what people are saying. And they didn't say, “Oh, because now that the school board is majority Black, that our schools are gonna be bad.” They would say things like, “Oh, now that the school board has changed, we're gonna look more like those ‘other’ school districts.”

And then they would describe majority Black school districts that they, in their mind, somehow are worse than, than ours, even though some of these school districts are literally award-winning school districts.

I think our society has always had a tendency to associate anything that has more White people as somehow better.

So you had these people and they showed up to school board meetings and they're like, first, they're like, “Open the schools.” And so they're like, “Alright, fine, we'll open the schools, but people need to wear a mask.” And then they were like, “No, open the schools and don't make people wear a mask!”

And they're like, “Well, you know, teachers are dying. School bus drivers are dying. There are vulnerable children in the school that really need to be protected. So that's why we have masks.” And so this whole thing about, and people just started going crazy. It was like a psychosis. Um, so then, once they said, “Okay, masks are now strongly recommended, but not required.” And it was like, “Well, now what are we gonna be mad at?”

So it was like, “Alright. Books.” And so, they took talking points from extremist groups and they would show up to the meetings, and now all of a sudden it was all about all these books and social emotional learning. I mean, we literally had people coming up and saying that diversity and inclusion was bad. Like, “Why are y'all trying to include people?” I was like, “Do you hear yourself?” And then, oh my God. CRT. And they just swore up and down like everyone was being “CRT-ed” in schools.

And I'm just like, I don't even. I got so tired of hearing CRT. Because it was like you were fighting against a ghost that wasn't there.

But, you know, we have all these different issues and I really just think it's a way for people who are seeing themselves losing the messaging battle, because they are. Because their messages are bad.

Just falling back on, “Well, if we can't win the messaging battle, we're just gonna scare people to death by telling them that there's all these imminent threats. And it's all the non-White people's fault because they came here and with them, they brought all these threatening things with them.”

Dr. Val: Mmm. Um, you, you know, you talked about power and fear, and I'm wondering what you have learned about those particular things that might be helpful for an audience.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: So, I think it's really important that, um, we recognize that emotions are very powerful. And fear is a very powerful emotion. And so, if you can make someone afraid of something, they will not necessarily lean on the most rational solution to that fear. And so I think one of the things we can't do is just tell people that they need to get over it. That's not gonna help, because if I truly believe that there is something about to harm me, if I truly believe that I am in some type of danger. If I truly am fearful of something, then you're not going to convince me to be rational by telling me that, um, I am irrational. It's just not how it works.

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: No one, no one's ever calmed down because you told them–

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Yes, told them to calm down. Oh gosh! The time that once somebody told me to calm down, Oh, it did not end well.

[Laughter]

So, I think to answer your question, we acknowledge what people don't understand, and try to get them to a place of understanding.

And I think some of the best ways we do that is through question-asking. And so for example, if someone is like, “Well, I'm very concerned about CRT,” I think the first question is, “Well, what, what is your concern? Like, what–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: –specifically are, are you concerned about?” And usually… they don't actually know. And so then that's an opportunity to say, “Well, this is what CRT is.” And then also saying, “By trying to take away what's not being taught, let, let me tell you what is being taken away.

Now, your kid is not getting to learn about Ruby Bridges and you learned about Ruby Bridges and you're fine! Or,

Andrew: Right!

[Laughter]

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Now your kid is not learning about Martin Luther King. So I think it's question-asking and just kind of getting to the root of people's fears. And, I'm not a therapist. I don't even play a therapist on TV. And so, I don't really know all the tactics. But what I do know is a Facebook ad is not as effective as a true conversation.

And when you actually–

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: –talk to people and just get, like, just talk about it. First of all, most of the people who are really mean on Facebook and Twitter in real life, they're not like that. Um, but also once you actually have a real conversation with someone, especially someone you know. Like, “Hey, I literally shop at the same Publix as you. We run into each other in the aisles all the time. Our kids play on the same basketball team. So I'm talking to you as a regular person today and let's talk about this.” And when you have those real, just authentic conversations, it's a lot easier to get your message across.

We like to call that, like, relational organizing. And I think that's so important.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: You mentioned this, the power of, of organizing, relational organizing. Of, of, you know, finding ways to be in community and in conversation with folks. Can you talk a little bit about, kind of, the power of, of cross-racial movement building, of bringing multiple people in different perspectives together to fight for justice?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: I think it's really important, actually. I think one of the first conversations I had with my co-host on the Suburban Women Problem, it was actually about voting rights. And both of the, my co-host are, are White women. They had never stood in line to vote. They did not have that context at all. It's not that they didn't understand. Like, they get it, but it was never their experience.

So, the actual experience of standing in line to vote is so normal to me. I stood in line with my parents. I stood in line with my grandma when she would go vote. I stood in line every time I've had to vote. It was so normal to me that I thought everybody stood in line!

Dr. Val: Same! Same.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Having a conversation with someone who was like, “What do you mean lines? Like we, You just go in, you go to the machine and you vote. Like, who stands in line?”

And I'm like, “What are you talking about?”

Andrew: “Why do you need water? Why do you need snacks?” Right?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: And so, you have to have those conversations to get the perspectives as well as the experiences of other people to understand why they're fighting so hard for the things that they're fighting for.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Like I said, my suburbs, we're a mosaic. And so that means that we all have different life experiences that we bring to the table. And if we're not talking to each other, they might not understand why I'm so passionate about the fact that we should allow line warming. And we should allow people to bring snacks and water, because sometimes you're standing in line for two hours.

Dr. Val: Right!

Dr. Jasmine Clark: But if they've never experienced that, it's not that they don't agree with me, but they can't really go to bat for me in the way that they, they might be able to if they've actually had a conversation with me, and they now understand why I'm so passionate about something that to them seems so simple. “Can't people bring their own snacks?” I'm like, “Hey, have you ever had to try to get home from work in Atlanta traffic after five o'clock. The polls close at seven. And you gotta pick up your kids from daycare in between that.” But that's never been their experience.

You have to have a lot of perspectives at the table. I believe that about organizing, I believe that about representation as well. You have a better representative government when you have multiple perspectives at the table, and that's what's been lacking. That is what is changing in our country, and that's what a lot of people are scared of, because when you get those other voices at the table, all of a sudden they're gonna wanna start doing things for other people that normally we actually made it okay to marginalize and, and ignore and disregard.

Dr. Val: I think your example that you just gave us is so powerful and something that I can connect to personally. I had my own experience where I'm tweeting about waiting in line and White folks around the country are like, “What are you talking about, Val?” And I'm like, I don't understand. What do you mean you don't have a line? What do you mean?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: When they told me they never stood in line, I was like, I literally associate voting with standing in line.

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Like, it is a part of the voting experience for me.

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: And to find out that there are people who have never stood in, I was in shock! Like, I was in shock that they had never stood in line just as much as they were in shock. That standing in line was literally a part of my voting experience. I always count on a line, like I'd never thought that there was a way that you could vote and not stand in line.

Dr. Val: Yep.

Andrew: You gotta move to Colorado. We, we do all, all mail-in ballots.

Dr. Val: I was gonna ask you, do you think the Black folks in Colorado feel the same way about their voting experience?

Andrew: Yes. I mean, that's my, that's my impression from talking to. There's plenty of other things to worry about and, and be concerned about here, the ability to vote, it's so easy. The ballot comes in the mail to your house.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: I actually love that.

Andrew: All you have to do is drop it off.

Dr. Val: What’s your voting, like, percentage?

Andrew: We, we have one of the highest in the country

Dr. Val: Nice.

Andrew: Because, because it is so easy. And you, and you know, you, you can go vote on the day of the election, you can show up. But so many people then have already sent in their ballots that you don't end up with the kind of–

Dr. Jasmine Clark: There's no lines.

Dr. Val: Nice.

Andrew: –big huge long lines.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: We actually saw that in Georgia, uh, during the pandemic. We sent everyone a ballot, absentee ballot application. And the participation increased because more people were just, had their ballot mailed to them. Not only did the participation increase, but on election day, so many people had already cast their ballot, that there were no lines.

I think that giving people more options to vote is probably the best thing that you can do for elections.

Dr. Val: So, what message do you have for those folks who are either disenchanted or disenfranchised about how they can remain civically involved?

Dr. Jasmine Clark: So I think that, when you are disenchanted (it's very easy to get disenchanted when it comes to the voting process) and especially when you are disenfranchised, to lean in instead of fall back. I think our tendency is to fall back and just say, “Look, I tried. I tried and they wouldn't let me.”

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: I would encourage people to lean in. But I think that leaning in also is a lot easier when you got other people leaning in with you. And so, find those people who are leaning in and join them!

Uh, and I think there are a number of ways to do that. As we talked about earlier, Red Wine and Blue has Great Troublemaker trainings, and I think that is one way to help each individual person find their strength to lean in, and then find their people around them to lean in with them.

So the Great Troublemaker trainings are great because you don't have to already be a motivational speaker. You don't have to have a degree in political science. You don't have to know, you know, the intricacies of the War in the Middle East. You just gotta care about your community, care about your neighbors and wanna move things in the right direction. That's all! That's all you have. And then if you have that baseline, you care and you want to make a change in some way, then you're in there.

But then outside of Great Troublemaker trainings, voting is minimum. Try to get out of your comfort zone and, uh, try to do more. And that's not easy for everyone. Like I said, some, everybody doesn't have the kind of job where you can just do all this extracurricular stuff at the end of the day, and sometimes after you get off work, you're tired! I am tired, a lot of days. So I get it a hundred percent! But whatever you do, just kind of recognize that the feeling that you're feeling is the way that “they” want you to feel. And they are the people who are feeling their power slip away and they're trying to claw it back.

Andrew: Mmm.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: The power to vote is so powerful and the ability to affect change through the electoral process is so powerful that there are people that are trying to take it from you. Snatch it back. Like, don't let them take it.

If it wasn't powerful, they would not care. I promise you! But the fact that every time you make a gain, they try to find a way to reverse that gain, that lets you know just how powerful your vote is. So don't ever convince yourself that it's not.

Dr. Val: Thank you.

Andrew: Mmm! T hat's beautiful. That is a, an inspiring message. Election right around the corner. Everybody needs to make sure their voice is heard. But I think also the idea of finding your people and building those relationships in the community, because I think, like you said, it's not just about one election. That after, after the midterms are over, no matter what the results are, there will still be challenges, there will still be work to be done. And, and that work is best done in community with, with like-minded people who are ready to, you know, to put their shoulders down and fight for something better. That only experience you need, the only expertise you need to bring is an expertise in your own life, in your own things that you care about.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Man, get people elected first, but after you get 'em elected, hold their, hold their butts accountable! Like, getting them elected is just step one. Now that they're in office, make sure they're listening to you. And if they're not listening to you, talk to 'em some more! Make 'em listen to you. It's a process. It doesn't stop on Election Day. Doesn't stop after the votes are certified. It goes on and on. It matters. If it didn't matter, they wouldn't try so hard to take it away from you.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: One final question. Not sure if you have any young people that you love and care about who are doing school. Love to hear any of your thoughts on their schooling experience.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: So I have a daughter who just turned 14. Um, she is in eighth grade and middle school. And I also have a son, he is 16 and 11th grade. He actually goes to school in Prince George County in Maryland.

Dr. Val: Okay.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: He lives with his dad. So, I have two amazing little people that I brought into this world and that I am just trying to make sure become productive citizens in this world. Um, and part of that is, their school experience.

And so, I pay attention and I, you know, I watch and I listen and I, I just wanna know what they're going through. What they're learning about. But also, like, how they're interacting with their peers and all the things.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: There are few things that I, I know. Number one, when it comes to teaching history, my son loves history. Uh, kids wanna know and they're curious. If you ban a book, that's gonna make them wanna know even more. I mean–

Dr. Val: Yes!

Andrew: Right!

Dr. Jasmine Clark: I can tell you that as a mom of teenagers. Ban that book and they are finding that book and they are reading it and they are sharing it with their friends. I love it.

[Laughter]

Because now kids are reading cuz they're like, “What's in it? What's in it?”

Um, number two, we really need to have a reckoning about guns in our country, because active shooter drills suck. They suck for those students. They're scary. And, I mean, I remember having tornado drills and fire drills in school, but we take precautions to not start fires. We need to take more precautions to not have guns coming into our schools in the first place.

And then the third thing I would say when it comes to the treatment of trans children and LGBTQ children in general, the kids do not care the way that the adults do. The adults are like all up in arms that, “Oh, uh, they're teaching that some people have two dads,” and the kids are like, “Yeah, guess what? Some people have two dads. Guess what?” Sometimes John wears jeans and sometimes John wears a dress. Guess what? John is John, and no one actually cares what the heck John is wearing cuz John is just John. And that's what John does.

The things that I feel like the adults that are standing up at these school board meetings are complaining about, I'm like, do you even talk to your kid? Cuz I talk to my kid all the time and they don't care about this thing the way that you care about this thing! And I really feel like you're projecting your own thoughts onto your children.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: So I would say the kids are gonna be alright. I won't say the kids will save us because I don't feel like we should put that burden on them. We should be protecting them. But I will say that the kids are gonna be alright and that a lot of the bigotry and the negativity that a lot of the adults are exuding, the kids are like, “Whatever, mom. Whatever, dad.”

[Laughter]

Andrew: That's adult, that's adult baggage, not kid baggage, for sure.

Dr. Val: Thank you so much Dr. Jasmine.

Andrew: Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for all the work you're doing out there and we look forward to continuing the conversation in the future.

Dr. Jasmine Clark: Absolutely. Thanks so much.

-----------------------------------

Andrew: So, Val, what did you think?

Dr. Val: Oh man. A couple of things really stood out to me. I wanna start with her identity, just as a woman, a doctor, a mother. And then all of that informing how she decided to get involved in the work, right? And so, she didn't necessarily see this path that she's currently on. What she saw was an opportunity to be an advocate and passionate about her subject area of science, right? And so, that, like, connecting to whatever you're passionate about and getting involved that way, I think sparks a desire to continue to connect. To continue to advocate for the things that you really care about.

And, I think that allows all of us to see ourselves in this, right? Cause I, I, I personally don't see myself as, um, a politician. But I see myself as a fierce advocate of what I really believe in and knowing that it's important to get behind people who do see themselves as politicians, to support the work that they are doing to, to create this future that we believe in together. So yeah, her, her identity for sure is one of the things that stood out to me.

Andrew: Yeah. And she talked about, like, the, the only thing you need to get involved is you gotta care about your community, you gotta care about your neighbors, and you gotta wanna move things in the right direction. And that feels like a, a, a pretty easy hurdle to cross, right?

Like, I think pretty much everybody feels some, some connection to those things and, and I think one of the things I appreciate about Red Wine and Blue is if you fall into that boat, “I'm not a politician, I don't think that I'm ready for, you know, whatever to run for Mayor.” Here's this thing you can do, which is, if you care, we're gonna connect you to other people who care and, and teach you how to try to advance causes that you care about.

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we can't separate that idea from the idea that she also talked about in terms of the mosaic, right? So, you will come together, thankfully with people across difference where you're not trying to all be the same person, but you're working from your different positions and identities together for this issue that you all are passionate about.

And we've talked a lot about how important this cross-racial work is for the future that we want. Right? There's lots of work for each community to do and there's lots of work that we need to do together. And I think what I love about Dr. Clark's vision, is that we can bring our whole selves to this cause. And that's welcomed.

Andrew: Yeah. I really appreciate that and I, you know, that, that has me thinking of the link and, you know, this episode was not sort of as directly tied to education as, as most of our content is, but still felt really important to get out now before the midterms. But also, you know, the, the link in my mind is that, that idea of the mosaic that everybody gets to hold onto their own humanity. That everybody gets to be themselves and show up in that way, and that that's actually what makes things beautiful. In my mind, that is like, that's a vision for a great school. That's a vision for a great education system. And the, the organizing and activating and, you know, finding your place with your voice, where the only expertise you need is a desire for things to be better and a love for your neighbors, that feels like a really, a really important part for parents and caregivers to tap into when it comes to, you know, what, what does it mean to try to advance equity in our schools?

Dr. Val: I was imagining a school where students are able to learn these things, right? Where else, except an integrated school, can you learn how to live in a multiracial democracy where you're all working towards something that you're passionate about? You're all trying to learn something, right? Like, where else can we do that? It sounds like a dream in it's most beautiful sense. And knowing that that is the future I want as an adult, it only makes sense for me to really want to, to put my children in a place where that is possible for them to learn how to do that. Because too often, when White and privileged folks are choosing racially isolated schools, they don't recognize that that too is a sacrifice.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: So my kid goes all the way through K-12, maybe through college, not having the ability to engage across difference with someone about something as important as our democracy, right?

Like, that's a sacrifice! And so, I don't know. I, it, it makes me warm and cuddly. Like, literally! Like, that's the face I was making, audience. I was like, it's just like a hug, to be in this dream that we have for the world. Starting in our schools.

Andrew: Yeah, no, I love that. And you know, like, tying back to, to last episode with Dr. Britney Murray that schools and particularly PTAs are kind of like the first exposure that kids often have to civic life, to civic associations and, and this kind of like mini democracy playing out.

And so, you know, I think the vision that is making you feel warm and cuddly is something that I share. And, you know, the, the recognition that just the creation of those spaces isn't enough, but the relationship building and the organizational piece that Dr. Clark also talks about, feels so relevant to the schools. Because we know we can't just sort of throw a bunch of different kids together in the building, and hope that these things come about by themselves. That they really, you know, we require some intentionality.

We require leaning in. Like Dr. Clark talks about. You know, leaning in and it's easier to lean in when you have other like-minded people. And so, you know, the idea of, kind of, finding those like-minded people in your, in your school community, in your city community, in your neighborhoods, and then, and then leaning in on the idea of building these spaces that we want as models.

It's like little mini-multiracial democracies that can exist in schools. They don't necessarily exist, but they certainly, you know, as you know, look around our lives, whereas the place that they are most likely to happen? I think that's, to me, the power of schools.

Dr. Val: Right. As you were talking, I was thinking, you know, as a listener, as a caregiver, what is something that I could do, right? Say my district was what it was in terms of leadership electorally and I still wanted to do something. I think what politicians who value public education need are parents who are informed about the benefits of it and willing to speak up in instances to, to fight for it.

And so, we've seen lots of examples of parent involvement in the past year around, book bans, anti-CRT or anti-social emotional learning. I don't get it. You know? So we've seen lots of, lots of that happening. And it's as important for us not to sit aside, and not thank school districts for the things that they're doing that we love. Like thank you for having those books on the shelf! Thank you for teaching this aspect of world history. Thank you for allowing time for the kids to get to know each other. you know, in their SEL time. Right? I think all of that also goes a long way and as a caregiver I can do that, and still feel like I'm contributing. Right? There's always something that we can do.

Andrew: Yes. Well, you've sort of jumped ahead here, Val. We're, we're into the action steps part of the episode already. That, those, those definitely count. The other thing I, you know, I mean, certainly a clear action step coming out of this is vote. If you have not voted yet, make a plan. Bring your friends. Make sure that your friends are voting. In many places, public education is on the ballot. So, we've gotta show up. We've gotta organize, we've gotta advocate for our kids and our schools. And the first step, the bare minimum step is to vote and, and make sure that those votes reflect those values.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I'm thinking I, you know, I am one, um, who has many times volunteered to canvas, and call, and knock on doors. And I don't know if you've done it recently, but I feel like people don't pick up their phones much anymore. Right?

Andrew: Yeah. Text messages, maybe.

Dr. Val: That's right, me included. And so, you know, I'm encouraging folks to even use their social media platforms.

Like, just let somebody know that you're voting. That you find this issue important. So even if they're not picking up the phone, they're scrolling through they're social media feed and they're, they're paying attention.

Andrew: So yeah, get out. Vote. Go to Redwine.blue if you want to connect. The Great Troublemaker trainings are going on now. There's lots of ways to get involved before the midterms, which are just a few days away. And, you know, not just voting, but, but look to find those like-minded people. Build the relationships, as Dr. Clark says, it's not just building relationships for an election, but building relationships for issues. And certainly the issue of education has been, uh, a very hot topic lately. And so, finding those like-minded people, building those relationships with them. To advocate for public education that serves all kids and serves them all well, is something that, you know, will never be wasted energy.

Dr. Val: And you know, if you get to this episode after you've voted, know that there's things that you can do all year to stay involved, um, not only with your local community, your school district, but also with this podcast. So, if you have things that you would like to say to us, we would love to hear from you.

Andrew: Yes. Hit that voice memos app on your phone. Record us a voice memo and email it off to podcast@integratedschools.org. We'll play some of your clips on upcoming episodes.

Dr. Val: That's right. And share this episode. Read it, study it with your friends. We need you to grow and continue to spread the message.

Andrew: That's right. And if you haven't tapped out all of your giving by donating to candidates who support a public education and are gonna be allies for justice, and you have a few dollars left over, we'd be grateful for your support: patreon.com/integratedschools.

Dr. Val: Thank you so much.

Andrew: Well, Val, uh, it's a pleasure to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time!