S9E2 – Finding Hope in Solidarity with Heather McGhee

Finding Hope in Solidarity with Heather McGhee

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Finding Hope in Solidarity with Heather McGhee.

Dr. Val: Are you serious? I get to talk to Heather McGhee!

Andrew: I know! We said the last time around when we replayed her episode that you were mad that you didn't get to be in conversation with her, and she agreed to come back!

Dr. Val: And we should probably tell the good people that she agreed to come back twice.

[Andrew and Val laugh]

Andrew: She did! She did agree to come back twice, um, because the first time we had just an amazing conversation.

Dr. Val: Beautiful.

Andrew: It was, it was touching, it was heartwarming. It went in all sorts of unexpected places.

Dr. Val: We were able to connect in ways that you and I haven't connected before.

Andrew: Yeah. And I didn't record it.

Dr. Val: Nope. Didn't record, folks.

[Val laughs]

Andrew: Not any of it. Not any of it, at all. So-

Dr. Val: You'll just have to believe us!

Andrew: You’ve got to trust us! It was a good conversation. If you've ever been considering joining that Patreon and throwing us a few bucks each month to help with our production, um, there, there you go. You could have heard the first conversation.

Dr. Val: That's right, that's right. But she agreed to come back and we had an even more meaningful conversation, I think.

Andrew: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Which was very gracious of her, uh, in her busy schedule to come back. She may be the hardest working woman in the business cuz she promotes her stuff all over the place and she's out promoting now the podcast version of The Sum of Us, which is, um, a whole new set of stories.

She went back and revisited a couple of the old stories, but a whole bunch of new stories, um, mostly focused on this idea of cross-racial solidarity and the solidarity dividends, which was one of the themes of the book, The Sum of Us.

Dr. Val: You know, this week I was in Chicago doing some facilitation around some cross-racial dialogue and someone in the audience, a White woman, said “I was just listening to Heather McGhee's podcast” and I didn't wanna give it away! I was like, “Dude, don't say anything! I'm so excited!”

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: So people are out there listening and really appreciating the work.

Andrew: Yeah. And we have a great conversation about it and about, the, yeah, the power of cross-racial solidarity and what good can come of it. Which, um, Val and I try to work on every episode here.

Dr. Val: That's right.

Andrew: Should we take a listen?

Dr. Val: I think we should.

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Heather McGhee: Hi! I'm Heather McGhee. I'm the author of the book, The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together. And I've created a sort of spinoff of the book in audio documentary form. It's a podcast, it's also called The Sum of Us, but it, it is a whole bunch of new stories of cross-racial solidarity.

Andrew: Yes. The podcast is, is great. It's so nice to hear the voices of the people that you're talking to and, you know, feel like you are in, in those locations. Can you talk a little bit about why a podcast, after the success of the book, why go back and find new stories to tell, but in this, this new medium?

Heather McGhee: Well, so the three big concepts in the book, The Sum of Us, are the “zero-sum lie of racial hierarchy”, the idea that progress for people of color necessarily has to come at White folks' expense. The second is the idea of the “drained pool” and “drained pool politics,” which is basically when White people are encouraged to divest from, and in fact, maybe even destroy public goods simply because they have to share them with people of color. Obviously very relevant to the context of Integrated Schools, drain pool politics is. But then the third concept is a hopeful one and it’s the idea of the “solidarity dividend,” The idea of gains that we can unlock, but only when we come together across lines of race.

And for many readers of the book in 2021 and 2022, the solidarity dividend was the idea that they wanted to hear more about. They wanted to know, is it really possible? Where is this happening? What does it take? And I, intellectually, was very interested in that. I'm a solutions-oriented person. and The Sum of Us is very much a diagnosis of how we got here. And, I think many people thought a hopeful way forward, but I wanted sort of a little more rigor and a little more evidence about the hopeful way forward.

So, that was sort of intellectually why I wanted to go back and why I felt like there would be an audience for the idea of a podcast that was exclusively focused on solidarity dividends. And then just emotionally, I wanted the experience of going back on the road and tapping into that hope that I always feel when I'm talking to everyday Americans about how they're trying to make a better America.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm! I'm, I'm curious, just about in your interviews, are you finding that a certain group of people, whether it's the ones that are most impacted by say, an oppression or a struggle, who are reaching out to create this solidarity? Or is it kind of all over the place? Like, what have you noticed?

Heather McGhee: That's a good question. So I mean, the idea of solidarity, first, right, is that you are willing to take on a fight that is not necessarily squarely your own, right? Maybe you're impacted by it. And of course, The Sum of Us argues that we're all impacted more by systemic racism–

Andrew: Right.

Heather McGhee: –and unjust systems than we often think at first blush.

But, you know, the core idea of solidarity is “I'm gonna stand with you, even though I am not you,” right? Your fight is my fight. No one should fight alone.

So, in The Sum of Us podcast, as I've really explored more examples of cross-racial solidarity it's, you know, it's been a mix! There have been some really nice times when I've kind of caught on tape people of color, the most impacted saying, “Well, we needed a White person in order to build power.”

You know, whether that's an Indigenous person, who's trying to stop an air raid siren that is going off daily, and has been going off daily since the days when it was enforcing a sundown law, saying–

Dr. Val: Oh, wow.

Heather McGhee: – Native people have to get off the land or else they'd be arrested or brutalized by sundown.

And, you know, that's a guy named Marty who said, “We're gonna need a White person in this town to speak up,” right? Or it's the first episode, uh, which takes place in Memphis, Tennessee, where I actually heard about what was going on in Memphis, this amazing coalition that helped to stop a pipeline, uh, that threatened the Black community and threatened the whole city's water, because the young Black leader of the movement talked about solidarity dividends in his speech!

You know? And he made the connection saying, you know, “White Memphis is not the one being targeted, but White Memphis relies on the water that is being threatened by this pipeline,” right?

Dr. Val: Mmm!

Heather McGhee: That the pipeline itself is coming through the Black neighborhood, but we're all threatened by it. And that is why we've gotta come together and have a solidarity dividend to protect clean water for all of us.

So, you know, there have definitely been examples of that, and it's been really cool to sort hear people of color name that and, and talk about the trade-offs and the reasons why they might hesitate to create a cross-racial coalition, and then also speak very plainly to the power that comes with having White people in coalition.

But I would say that, you know, what's been really interesting is hearing about the reasons why either a White person or a person from another community that's not the directly targeted community, decides to make it their fight. Right?

So, in the Nevada example I gave about the sundown siren, you know, there was a White guy named Matt who was a, you know, imagine a sort of typical outdoorsman. He climbs mountains, he mountain bikes, he surfs. You know, and he's from Santa Cruz, California and he goes to Nevada for recreation. And he hears about the sundown siren after Ahmaud Arbery's been killed.

Dr. Val: Mmm. Mm!

Heather McGhee: And when Ahmaud Arbery was killed, he, as someone who spends all his life, you know, running and exercising and all that, like, put himself right in his shoes.

Dr. Val: I just got goosebumps from that! Yeah!

Heather McGhee: Yeah, it's a goosebump-y podcast, for sure. Right? So, you know, a lot of people who run saw Ahmaud's, you know, stalking and killing as, as so close to home as something they could deeply empathize with. Right? That was his moment! You know? And he reflects on it and he, you know, his voice breaks and he says, “You know, he was just, he was just running,” you know? And there's sort of a “Before Ahmaud” and an “After Ahmaud” in Matt's life, you know?

And it was just interesting to hear how, even though he had never met a Washoe Native person, right? The tribe that's, you know, most impacted by this history of this sundown siren. He was like, “This is unjust. I can't believe that this town won't just shut this siren off. And I'm just gonna do something about it.”

And it gave him a sense of purpose. You know, right? His life is more meaningful than it was before. For sure. Right? Everybody wants to be part of something meaningful. But he also, you know, had some awkward missteps and had to learn how to deal with all of his rapidly expanding consciousness without taking up the whole room, you know? When he was in that cross-racial space. And so, it's all, it's all explored in The Sum of Us, the podcast for sure.

Dr. Val: Yeah! That's awesome. Thank you.

Andrew: Yeah, so, if you can sort of like take the next step there. As became, like, a better ally in that fight, what was it that helped him through the the awkward missteps? The early phases of, I love that idea of kind of like, you know, this, like, newfound consciousness that then, I think as White people we have a tendency to then want to share with the whole world all the time.

[All laugh]

In a way that, like, we are the first people to have thought of these things.

What, what–

Heather McGhee: A Christopher Columbus scenario.

[All laugh]

Andrew: Yeah, right, right. What, what kind of, what was helpful in that?

Heather McGhee: Well, I think it was his relationship with Marty, the, the Washoe Native person who was a lifelong California Public Schools educator. Right? So, you know, had always been in mixed spaces, was himself, had an orientation of educating, right?

So I think it took a lot of grace and compassion from Marty and a lot of patience. And I think that their authentic relationship is really what was sort of the “secret sauce” of the coalition and, and across the episodes. That authentic cross-racial relationship that's marked by self-awareness (usually on the part of White people), and grace and, kind of, empathy or position taking (on the part of people of color), is really something that, you know, became very obvious to me over the journey.

And many of the podcast episodes really focus on a friendship. And in the finale, I reflect on, you know, what I learned from the journey and that's definitely one of them.

Dr. Val: Mmm. So, I'm curious. I know you have dug into the history and you're looking at these wonderful stories. What has history taught us about what makes these movements hard to sustain after, like, say, “We stopped the pipeline” or “We stopped the siren”? Like–

Heather McGhee: Mmm.

Dr. Val: –what can we learn from that to keep these authentic relationships going?

Heather McGhee: So movements are not just moments of high activity. Right?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm!

Heather McGhee: So you can be like, “Well, there was a movement in the summer of 2020, and that movement is gone.” Because I'm looking out, right now I see five apartment buildings in Brooklyn, out of my windows and there's no “Black Lives Matter” sign in any of them anymore, right? So that means the movement must be gone. Right? But that's true, right? The summer of 2020 was a series of high visibility, unbelievable saturation. Demonstrations, right? That, that word means something. It is a demonstration of a sentiment. That doesn't mean that that sentiment is not still there.

And what I really discovered on the journey for the podcast was that sentiment has really settled into people's hearts and souls and consciousness. And so, like with Matt, you know, the mountain biker, it was a “Before Ahmaud” and “After Ahmaud,” right? Like, I mean, I think there's a reason why the right wing is attacking books, ideas, thoughts, things that raise consciousness, right? Education. Because the right wing has co-opted the term “woke” from Black people! But, you know, there's something about there's when you're sleeping and then when you wake up! Right? And once someone's eyes have been opened, it's hard for them to be closed again. They can't unlearn what they learned about redlining, and about school funding, and about Jim Crow. That, that's with you forever, that changes the way you see the world.

So, I think it's really important to define movements broadly in terms of time and recognize that demonstration moments are not the beginning, middle and end of movements. And also to say that what in community is important to sustain these movements is relationships and infrastructure.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: That's great. I'm thinking about what feels like this moment right now around public education, that there is a need for multiracial organizing and movement building to protect public education. And, and I'm wondering, is there a time now to think about that in a different way than we have in the past? I think that for a long time we had this vision of, you know, kind of, “good schools” being White schools, Black and Brown schools being not good schools and the vision of, kind of, organizing for educational equity or justice was to allow more Black and Brown kids to have access. Sorry, the, the White person vision.

Dr. Val: Thank you! I was going to wait until you were done!

[All laugh]

Andrew: I, I saw it, I saw it in your eyes!

Dr. Val: You saw it on my face. I was like, “Who is ‘we’?” Who is ‘we’?!

Andrew: The, the, like the White version, vision of, you know, “Where we want racial equity is like, let's give more Black and Brown kids access to, quote unquote, good schools, which happen to be White schools. And, we're in this moment where the, you know, anti-CRT movement, this, you know, sort of fear as you were talking about, of teaching kids actual history, of opening people's eyes you know, that what we need right now is really this, like, multiracial-coalition for good, honest education.

We had James Haslem from H.E.A.L. Together on, you know, talking about some of the work that they're doing. Val put together this C.A.R.E. principles, this framework for anti-racist education. There's this, like, need right now for really, actually good education that educates everyone well.

Heather McGhee: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And, and I'm wondering what it looks like to, kind of, create space for everyone to, you know, be themselves fully in schools. What does it look like to, to, to organize on behalf of that in a multiracial coalition?

Heather McGhee: Yeah.

Heather McGhee: You know, it's interesting because in so many ways that organizing around social and emotional learning, around giving people the kind of character competencies that are needed to be thriving citizens in a multiracial country, in a multiracial world, has been going on for the past decade, and that's why there's anything for these fearmongers to point to. Right? And, you know, it's like they see the progress that's happening. They see that the education, uh, in many school districts, although of course not all or not even the majority, has been doing what good education should, which is creating critical thinkers and creating people who are ready to be strong citizens. And I say that not in a documentation way, but just in the sort of civic spirit of the way.

So, I think it has been happening. And I think that right now is the time to really defend it. And I think that this community, the Integrated Schools podcast community should be at the front lines of fighting against book bans, against, defending social and emotional learning, defending teachers of color. Defending the very idea of public schools.

Last week I co-authored an op-ed in the New York Times. It was a whole package about “what is school for”. And we were invited to write on the prompt of schools for making citizens. And, you know, an argument that we made there was one that I make in the afterward, in the paperback version of The Sum of Us book, which is these attacks on our children's freedom to learn are not just about short term political gain and trying to scare, you know, White parents in the suburbs, away from the Democratic Party (which is what they are). But it's not just about that. It's also about rendering and keeping ignorant (mostly White) students who are going to be going through to the world not understanding why there are these obvious racial inequalities in their communities and in their country. And then they're more ripe for the picking for stereotypes and the zero-sum racial story. And if you don't think that structural racism is why something is going on, if you don't know our history, you know, then it's very easy to blame victims and to feel like you're, you're so different from people who are struggling.

But then the longer term goal of the right wing in this very well-funded bankroll effort is a real “drain the pool” strategy, right?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Heather McGhee: Where they're trying to basically put public schools, which are already on the ropes because of the pandemic, because of the crisis of low teacher pay. You know, it's– remember when people were wearing red shirts and red states, right? Striking across the country for, for decent pay to educate the next generation.

And so the goal is to really try to weaken and destabilize public schools where you've got overworked, underpaid teachers now having to respond to public records requests about every time that, you know, somebody mentions the word racism in school, or in their library, right? And that's really how to drain the pool strategy. You've got more examples coming out right now of, you know, weird witch hunts around what's on the shelves resulting in people defunding their libraries! You know? I mean, it’s classic drain pool politics. This, this “culture war” stuff. Meaning a loss of a public good for everyone.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I saw a story about that and I was like, “Do y'all understand what you just did? You defunded your own library, and for what?” You don't have to read every book in the library.

Andrew: Something I've been thinking about, even back to the book, the kind of idea of zero-sum? I'm thinking about, kind of, the timelines a little bit for fixing things. Like, I deeply believe that the zero-sum mindset is harmful in the long run for everybody. That it's false, in the long run, that we are all better off if we are all better off. That the pie is not fixed. And there are, there are specific sort of short term moments where there is a fixed pie. You know, we've created systems that are zero-sum. You know, I think about school funding. Like, there is a fixed pie.

Heather McGhee: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And we should be advocating for more funding. We should be spending our time and energy going and arguing that we need to pay teachers better, that we need to fund education like it's the sort of important thing that it is. And, best case version of that is a five or 10 year change. What do I do right now? My kid only has one shot at third grade.

Heather McGhee: Mm-hmm. I think that the integrated school example, it's about redefining what your kid needs to thrive, and recognizing that. I don't know, you know, in some places the, the Whiter schools are, are less academically rigorous than the schools that are more global majority schools. But whatever it is, right? Some evaluation you're making about what's better about the Whiter school, you know, and you may be really short changing them in a way that is so vital to their, to their critical thinking, to their development as human beings, which is understanding who their, their neighbors are and who their fellow Americans are and, and who other human beings are.

So, you know, sometimes it's about redefining what the “good” is, right? What is the “good” and for whom? And then what is even the “good” just for you?

But in terms of the timeline, yes. Right? Like if we're talking about school funding, I was reminded of an example that one of my students in this class that I'm teaching at CUNY at the City University of New York, who's currently the field director for California Calls (which is a statewide coalition in California), was reminding us of the fight to overturn Prop 13, which is really absurd draconian limit on property taxes that has gutted public education in California. And that there was a coalition of, you know, lots of people to try to get something on the ballot to overturn it. And they got it on the ballot. And then when the coalition was aiming to get the increased school funding appropriated in an equitable way (so that English language learners and students with disabilities would have more per pupil funding), a group of like sort of, I don't know if this was the exact name of them, but it was like “moms for education” (right?), pulled out of the coalition and ended up opposing the ballot initiative.

And, you know, that was a very stark example of mostly White, more well-heeled, um, wealthy women who thought they were doing something for the kids. And then when they realized that their kids were not going to get the most, they said “We're not for this anymore.”

And so, I think about that and it's like, that is a very short term (to your point, Andrew) view of what your goal is and what the good is, right? First of all, your kids are already coming in with thousands of dollars or more per pupil because you have that and are giving it to them in countless and in fact, very tangible ways. Right? So it's not like your kids are actually gonna get less. They're just gonna get less public money, but they're gonna have plenty of private money. Trust and believe!

You know? And then the second is, like, do, you know these people who are obviously like these women were, you know, “super citizens,” right? They were getting involved in a ballot initiative and they were advocates! Right? And it's like, well, the, the, the California that they were trying to create, you would imagine is one where they felt like they had a long term stake.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Heather McGhee: And so, is it not better for the long term stake of California, (including their children and their grandchildren) for there to be more kids from the other side of the tracks who thrive and flourish? And contribute to the tax base down the road. And become the person who, you know, does the open heart surgery on your kid, you know? And whatever it is, right? Right? So it's like, it's about redefining the good in a way, that's a little more long term. It's not so short term where you're thinking about all the resources that are coming into play, and you're defining what a kid needs in a more holistic way.

Dr. Val: So, you were talking about creating citizens and it took me to just my own family. And I come from a line of educator activists who, I feel like that's where I learned my civic engagement from. Right? And we always thought of education as liberation, and that's a path for us to do good for others and in the world, et cetera. I'm curious about who poured into you to get you to this point?

Heather McGhee: I'd say it's very similar. You know, I think for many Black folks, there is a tradition of being hyper civically involved. I was lucky enough to grow up near my grandparents, particularly on my father's side, whom I write about in The Sum of Us and, you know, my, my maternal grandmother was an educator. She was in a sorority for Black educators. She was a principal of a school. My grandmother on my father's side was a high school guidance counselor. My grandfather on my father's side was a police officer who was in internal affairs and investigations in the Chicago Police Department in the 1960s. He was a bad mamba jamba!

Dr. Val: OK!

[Val and Heather laugh]

Heather McGhee: You know and they would have Democratic meetings, you know, in their basements and stuff. And I was really fortunate to grow up when and where I did on the South Side of Chicago. And it was just this sort of sense that it was, it was everybody’s duty in one way or another to keep their hand on the wheel progress, you know, for, for Black folks and for, for all who struggle.

And, and then my mother, is very much the person, you know, who's holding the, the torch closest to me. She's a lifelong public servant, nonprofit, professional in philanthropy and direct service. She's a, a healer. Really kind of one of the foremothers of the movement around social determinants of health.

Uh, Her name is Dr. Gail Christopher people who read the book will recognize her from the end of the book. And she founded, and designed the framework for truth, racial healing, and transformation, which is an effort that communities can and, and are taking up to do a kind of a truth process around the racial histories and the dynamics of racial hierarchy that exist in community. If people wanna learn more about that, they can go to healourcommunities.org, it’s a website maintained by the Kellogg Foundation where she was when she created it.

And then I would say, you know, just to keep it cross-racial for a moment, I mean, I think that in my professional life, there have been White people who are as dedicated as I, as I am to fighting inequality, and who taught me about economic policy and taught me about how to make change and how to be an advocate and who mentored me. People like Miles Rapaport, who's the president of my organization, Demos, when I was hired and who predated me as president. And then my colleague, Tammy Drought, who's a child of a steel worker, very working class Midwesterner, who was my intellectual thought partner throughout that work.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Heather McGhee: Uh, and I do think that that shaped me. And has it been an important part of why I think it's possible to, to build power across lines of race.

Dr. Val: I agree. I've been lucky in, in that way. Thank you for being my friend, Andrew!

[Andrew and Val laugh]

And working with me! Yeah.

Andrew: Gotta try. Gotta try! All of these stories, it feels like it comes back to the, the power and the hope that you draw, and that certainly I draw from listening to the podcast, from cross-racial friendships that then kind of blossom into activism. Maybe activism that blossoms into friendship. I don't know, like what the–

Heather McGhee: Yeah.

Andrew: Do you have any thought on, kind of like, the directionality of that? Is it the, “We became friends and then we worked together”–

Dr. Val: Hmm

Andrew: –or “In deciding that we had some sort of shared cause and shared purpose, brought us closer together”?

Heather McGhee: You know, that's a good question. I'm trying to quickly tick through the stories in, in the podcast. For, for most of them it was work, a shared value–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Heather McGhee: –that brought people together, and then a real authentic relationship flowed out of it. Right? I'm thinking of, for example, on the second episode (which takes place in Florida) where Desmond Mead, who is extraordinary civil rights leader now, and was, you know, homeless and addicted and court martialed out of the military when he was young and served time.

And is now the leader of the movement to restore the voting rights for people with felony convictions. And then there's a White guy, who was a Republican who caught a felony because he was part of the Jack Abramoff lobbying scandal (right?), named Neil. And the two of them met up almost accidentally and they connected because of their values around second chances, right?

And they couldn't have been more different. But then the friendship and the authentic relationship came in because they were able to connect on something that really mattered to them both.

Dr. Val: You just saying that made me just jot down, like, the importance of even, like, these opportunities for dialogue. Can you talk a little bit about that? And having people even come together and talk about their values and how that matters?

Heather McGhee: Yeah. You know, it really does matter because, you know, part of the problem right now, in the wake of a pandemic and in our digitized world, is that we don't have as many spaces to connect on a human level. So often when we do connect on a human level, we actually wanna avoid those deeper conversations because the media and social media tells us those are divisive conversations.

We don't wanna risk not liking anybody anymore–

[Laughter]

–because they say the wrong thing, you know? And it's like, “I just don't wanna go there. Let's be. Let's stuff these goodie bags for the PTA, but let's not talk about anything else! Cause then I’m gonna have to hate you now!”

Andrew: Mm-hmm!

Heather McGhee: Um, but ultimately, you know, when something really matters to you, you dive in. Right? And, and that's what the stories in the podcast are all about are fights that people have taken on because they really matter to them, for one reason or another. And, and of course, you know, the lesson here is that there's so much more that we have in common than what divides us.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I think about, the episode in Kansas City and, and Bridget who's organizing for minimum wage. Right? Bridget’s a White woman. She talks about once she got involved, her lack of fear. That there was something liberating in actually, you know, getting involved. That, you know, she was sort of fighting on a grand scale for collective liberation for herself and for other people in solidarity. But there was also this kind of, like, micro-liberation for herself that she felt like she didn't have this state of constant fear that she had been living in. That she was sort of liberated from that.

Heather McGhee: Yeah. I mean, that was one of my, my favorite episodes to do because Bridget and her co-conspirator Terrence (who's a brother from Kansas City who's also a fast food worker), you know, they're in the book. And they're a very memorable pair of characters from the book. Even though, you know, there's, like, four lines each about them. That's the thing about a book, that is, as my editor once said (I think not in a complimentary way), he was like, “You’re trying to swallow the ocean here!”

[Laughter]

You know? It's like, there's a lot going on in the book The Sum of Us. And so, any one character gets, at most like, you know, half a page, a page, right?

But by going back to Kansas City and being able to sit and talk with Bridget and Terrance for hours, and really try to unfurl their stories in this audio format, you know, I got to dig much deeper about the shifts in their consciousness and what they used to believe and how they used to feel about being people working in poverty and how, how that shifted once they began to organize and how exposure to each other helped them to change.

And for Bridget she really had this sort of false consciousness that it was her fault that she was still stuck in a dead end job, cuz she was this young person with so much promise and she ended up dropping out of school in order to take care of her mom. And, you know, putting off going to college and, you know, taking a job that was an okay job 20 years ago. Little did she know that because of greedy corporations, the job would still be paying the same, you know, or less in real terms, you know, 20 years later. Right? And that the market would be flooded with jobs like that.

And so she really blamed herself. She really held some, some stereotyping racist views about Black people and about immigrants, and she had a sort of individualistic frame for how she got into this mess and what she could do to get out of it, you know? Like, go back to school. Well, some astonishing share of fast food workers have college degrees or some college experience, right? Like you can't educate yourself out of a labor market that's designed for poverty, right?

So when she learned, by showing up to an organizing meeting for the free pizza–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm!

Heather McGhee: –that, you know, there were other people just like her who were different in color and language, but had her same material circumstances, and were willing to take risks in their lives for something that would change her life and her children's lives, she felt empowered! And she felt like “It's not my fault!” and “I'm not alone.”

Right? And that absolutely liberated her. There's definitely a thread in all the people that I met who were part of some successful, powerful cross-racial organizing of, “Well, this is the way life is supposed to be. This is who we're supposed to be as human beings.” Right? Connected. Still individuals. Still having our own culture. But, you know, our, our world is expanding because of it.

One of the most memorable lines from The Sum of Us podcast (which is a podcast series with lots of memorable lines) is from Ms Scottie Fitzgerald, who goes to a rally where at this point, the movement against the pipeline had become a real high demonstration moment.

So there were lots of people at this big rally. And it, it was a pipeline that threatened her. Her Black neighborhood. Her family. Her land. They were trying to take it by eminent domain to build the pipeline. And here's what she says.

Ms. Scottie Fitzgerald: It was such a mixed crowd. It was so many colors and people there that was pushing, and that was for us.

Heather McGhee: Have you ever seen that before in your life? All those White people?

Ms. Scottie Fitzgerald: I cried because I wouldn't have thought that anybody would care. When I looked out and saw the bouquet of people, and that's what God loves, is a bouquet. Everything he made is diverse.

Dr. Val: That was beautiful. And I, I, I feel the same way. Right? Seeing people, different people together, working together, that is beauty to me and liberation. Thank you, Ms. Scottie.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Val: And speaking of liberation, I think what I am learning about liberation is, I'm gonna be able to find bits and pieces of it throughout the day. Maybe a longer moment. Can you talk a little bit about your understanding of liberation when it comes to this work?

Heather McGhee: You know, to me, liberation feels like a sense of alignment.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Heather McGhee: That what I'm doing is aligned with my purpose. That I'm getting closer to figuring out and refining my definition of what my purpose is on the planet. That I'm in touch with my higher self?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Heather McGhee: Like, that the sort of channel between me and my ancestors and my higher self is sort of open and there's not a lot of static, you know? That when challenges come as they do, I can get still and sort of listen for what the right move is and not feel trapped and betwixt in between.

Yeah, that my actions and my deeds are in line with my higher self. That, that to me feels like liberation.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I think, and I asked that because I, I think previously I believed it was more of a destination. And now I'm recognizing that I can have some here. Because of, like, that alignment or because of a meaningful conversation with Andrew or because of, like feeling connected to folks in a way that I wasn't anticipating. All of those are liberating.

Heather McGhee: But isn't that interesting though, Val? Right? How. We're both talking about liberation as connection.

Dr. Val: Yeah!

Heather McGhee: Which in one paradigm can be, “Oh, I'm, I'm shackled to somebody!” Right? Liberation is “I'm flying free on my own!”

You know, “I don't need to be connected or tied to anybody,” you know? But I, I don't, I think that's a very false patriarchal, you know, Western view of liberation, that it's about the individual as opposed to feeling really connected.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: I mean, that's to me that, yeah, that's, that's the promise of collective liberation, right? Like, that's why it matters for me that you are liberated. That's why we all have a stake in each other's liberations, is because we can't actually be liberated on our own. And, and my connection to you is thwarted by the ways that you are oppressed. My, my ability to be in right relationship impacts me. It impacts you. Like, we are all impacted. I think that's the, the collective part of liberation to me.

Heather McGhee: Yeah, I like that.

Dr. Val: Final question that we're asking all of our guests this season to talk about how their caregiving/parent/schooling thing is going. So school has started!

Heather McGhee: Oh, yes!

Dr. Val: How’s it going for you all?

Heather McGhee: Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. I think the last time we talked, I was like, “I hope that my son can go to this good school that is so, like, warm and lovely and rigorous and has this great Black principal and vice principal.”

Andrew: And this is the public pre-k that's in your neighborhood?

Heather McGhee: Yeah. He's now in day three at that school.

Dr. Val: Very good. Yay!

Heather McGhee: And we're very excited about that. And, you know, I mean, his classroom is so diverse in a really beautiful way. We had the parent orientation and I had this, like, totally juvenile feeling. It was like, literally you're walking into the lunchroom and the kids had been put in the gym to play and the parents were the ones, you know, being talked to. And I was like, “Ooh, there's so many cool parents in here that I wanna be friends with!”

[Heather Laughs]

Dr. Val: Aww, yay!

Heather McGhee: And I was like, “This is so great!”

So hopefully, here, New York City. Universal Pre-K, funded by tax dollars. Available to every parent at four years old, will be his first experience of school that really challenges him.

But I am profoundly grateful for Universal Pre-K in New York. It's a great equalizer. It, it's really great.

Dr. Val: Awesome. Thank you for sharing.

Andrew: It's beautiful. You, you have said many times everything we believe comes from the stories we are told, and I feel like your podcast is just such a great example of stories that need telling. Examples of cross-racial solidarity and the, the good that can come of them. That's what we try to do here. Every episode with Val and I, leaning into it.

And so, just, yeah, really grateful for all the work that you do and particularly for the podcast and for coming on and sharing about it.

Heather McGhee: Thank you! Thank you both, so much.

Dr. Val: Thank you! Thank you!

--------------------------------

Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Dr. Val: Oh man, I'm, I feel super grateful that she came back and, and spoke with us again. And I felt like I learned even more this next go round and I think I want to dig into our own story. And related to the question about the oppressor versus the oppressed, kind of like being the first to seek solidarity. And I'm wondering if we can kinda share with the listeners how we got here.

Andrew: Yeah. I was thinking about that too. You know, ties into sort of later on in the conversation we talked about. Do you join in a project together and then find the friendship? Or do you find a friendship and then that leads you to joining the work together?

And I think certainly in, in our case, it was the work. You know, we, we sort of started on this project of doing this podcast together that, that then led to a friendship.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Which I think is, you know, just in my experience, these personal relationships are what we can count on most in any of the solidarity efforts that we undertake. And I say that because, you know, we could build something really awesome together and for some reason outside of our control, it could end.

But, what we would have is the relationship that you and I have built, right? And so, then having the energy to build something together, or something new. And I think that's a really important takeaway because if we get caught up on the thing that we create together and not the relationship that we have with one another, if something happens to, like say, the product, then we can lose hope. Where I think the hope is always with the people.

Andrew: Mm. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah, I, I love that idea. Cause I, right. Like, had, had Heather McGee been like, “You didn't record my thing? That's it. I'm, I'm blasting you on Twitter and you guys are canceled!” We would still have, we would still have our friendship to, to kind of pick up the pieces from afterwards.

Yeah, I, you know, I think I think about that on the, on the front end. The kind of ease with which relationships can be formed through a project, you know? Through working together. Maybe that is tied to values. You joined the Integrated Schools podcast. We had some sense of shared value before we started on this, but it doesn't necessarily need to start through those values, but it is in that kind of working together that you build those relationships that you find that kind of shared humanity that you realize.

Because I think there are so many messages counter to this. But I, I think when you actually get in a room with somebody, or even just over Zoom with somebody, that we want to find relationship. We want to be in community. We want to find ways in which we are similar and find ways to connect with people. I think that's, like, in our nature. We spend so much time thinking about these kind of big, broad ways in which we are divided in which we are not the same?

But, I think there's something really powerful in being together in, in space, (ideally a physical space, but even just virtual space) together and engaging in conversation that I think, I think we are inclined to reach for connection in those spaces.

Dr. Val: I have a question. Do you think, like, the type of project could be something as simple as uh, PTA, a parent teacher organization thing, or does it have to be something that is explicitly tied to a value? Right?

Andrew: I don't think it does. I mean, I think, I think it can be as simple as cleaning up the trash at school. I think it can be as simple as–

Dr. Val: I think that is tied to a value, though.

Andrew: It probably is tied to a value. You're right.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I think I asked that question cuz I was, you know, wondering, like, for audience members who may not have the ability to engage in conversation with someone like I do with you normally, what would be the entry point? Is it enough for me to show up to the PTA meeting and say, “Hey, I wanna be a part of this for that conversation, that type of relationship and that project” to start.

So I don't know for sure, but I am thinking that, you know, say I do go to a environmental protection group. Like, I have signaled my values and thus people there, um, might be more willing to dig into some of these things with me, versus if I just show up at a school function.

Andrew: Yeah. I don't know. I wonder. Cause I, I mean, I think also, like what school did you show up at is, is already stating some values.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And so I think I wanna encourage folks who are curious about how to, how to do that. To take advantage of any opportunities that Integrated Schools has to bring people together. And then also not being afraid to, like, propose something that might bring people together. Like, “I am interested in this thing for our school. Is there anyone who is willing to do this with me?”

And having one person say “yes,” I think, makes a big deal. And it is the beginnings of a community. And I'm thinking about some of our callers who called in last episode, who, you know, found community with other caregivers and parents who also cared about the same things in their community and, and decided to take action together.

Andrew: Yeah. I love that. And we'll talk about this a little more in the next episode, but I think that doesn't necessarily have to be through the traditional channels that school uses. Doesn't have to be a formal PTA event. Just the idea of “Here is a community building activity that we are going to engage in, because actually we think that strong community supporting school is really important to school doing a good job.”

Dr. Val: Right! Right.

Andrew: The other, the other piece that this makes me think of from, from the conversation with Heather is, is this idea that, you know, movements aren't moments.

Dr. Val: Oh, I wrote that down too!

Andrew: Which, which was so powerful just to think about, you know, the, the kind of, the demonstration is the loud part that you see.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: But, but you don't get to demonstration without work beforehand.

You know, like Black Lives Matter does not become the, the movement that it is without the, the years and years and years of work. All the way back to Michael Brown's killing. That activism laid the groundwork for there to be something to pop up in the wake of George Floyd's murder.

And so, you know, there's always work going on in the backgrounds to, to set that up. And then after that big moment, I think, I think to, to your point a minute ago, for movements that are sustainable, that do end up being sustained, I think it is those relationships. That human connection that is sustaining, that keeps things going after the big showy demonstration piece.

Dr. Val: Yeah. One of my favorite things that I learned recently was just the, the amount of educators of color in the thirties and forties who poured into the activists who became the civil rights activists in the fifties and sixties, right? They had teachers, they had people behind the scenes who couldn't do the work as publicly as they were able to do it.

And there were lots of young people who led those movements and had conversations with their teachers about what they deserved and the rights that they wanted, and so generational work is happening now, and so we don't actually know what our investments will turn into for the people who follow us. But we have the sense that it's important enough to do. And, um, I think it's because we recognize that it's not just a moment.

Andrew: Yeah. Right. You hope that there, that you've done enough work so that when, when the right moment happens, there is infrastructure (and, and, not just like actual, you know, infrastructure around kind of organized people) but also, the seeds have been planted in terms of the way people are thinking about the topic. The way the conversation about topics is happening. Such that when you know when the moment arises, there's something that can really stand up to, to fill the role that is needed in society.

Dr. Val: Mmm! No, I really like that. When the moment arises. And Heather kind of indicated that there's a moment right now that she believes Integrated Schools should be actively a part of.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: In terms of standing up against book bans and advocating for public schools.

Andrew: Yeah. You know, there's another part that I found so, so powerful about what she's saying. That fear around CRT as a boogeyman and the, the need to, to ban books, that part of that stems from the activism. To your point about, you know, educators in the thirties and forties setting up civil rights educators. We've had a, a whole wave of Black educators recently talking about the importance of, you know, culturally affirming education, the importance of creating a space where people can see themselves in the curriculum. Where, there is an acknowledgement of past trauma inflicted upon people of color.

All of these things which have been happening, and it is because those things are happening (not widely enough, not in enough places), but it is because that has been building, that there is something that is, you know, causing this sort of sense of fear. That is causing this real, visceral kind of pushback that is now showing itself as, you know, “We need to ban books. We need to cancel any talk of race in schools.”

This is a time, you know, something we heard again from listeners last time, this fear of “What state is public education in?” How are people talking about it? How are people thinking about it? That there really is a moment now to step up and, and try to do something about.

Dr. Val: Yeah. You know, even though there's all this pushback that is dangerous and we should absolutely stand on talking about race and racism in schools and allowing teachers to teach critical thinking around these topics. I did leave the conversation with Heather feeling hopeful.

And I felt hopeful in a couple of different ways. I think it's easy to, to experience the pushback and feel like, “Okay, we're not making any headway at all.” But what she reminded us in that conversation, is that each one of these examples, including the ones on her podcast and our example here, are really important to elevate and share with the world. About how this work can look without a big moment. Right? How it looks in the daily push to create a better world.

And, you know, I'm thinking about all of the, the work that each of the, the people that she highlighted in her podcast had to do that. Eventually led to them feeling some sense of success, but a lot of it was, like, ugly and silent or messy, right? Um, and it was just, it was just work. But all of it was necessary to get to a point where they experienced some success together. And so, I think these conversations do give me hope because there is a not too far history where this would have been impossible.

Andrew: Yeah. Absolutely. And I, I mean, I love that she kind of highlights the, the components that, that have made that up (at least in the examples in the podcast) which is, you know, a, a sense of self-awareness among White people. And a sense of, I think she, you know, talked about, like, empathy and position taking from people of color. That there's kind of like, everybody needs to come to the table.

That we White folk have to bring some humility and some self-awareness. And resist the idea that once our racial consciousness has expanded a little bit, that we need to now fill up the room with it. Um, which is such, like, a tempting place to go. But you know, that there, there is kind of work for everyone to do and trying to create these spaces where we can have these meaningful connections.

Dr. Val: Yeah, for sure.

Andrew: One, one thing she, she said that is, like, unequivocally true and also sort of stuck out to me a little bit, was you asked her, like, sort of who poured into her. And she talked about the rich history of, of Black folks being kind of hyper-civically involved.

And, and that is unquestionably true and it is not the general story that we tell. You know, part of the way I think that, that White supremacy replicates itself is telling this story. We see it in education all the time, but more broadly about civic engagement. That, you know, quote, “If those people would just care more about their neighborhood or would just, you know, care more about education,” or whatever. There is, like, a story of Black folks who don't care about, about being civically engaged.

Dr. Val: Mmm. Oh yeah, no, you're giving away White secrets right now!

[Andrew Laughs]

Um, because that's not my experience at all! Right? Um, that's not my experience at all. I have always had the honor and pleasure of learning from Black folks who were civically involved. That was always an expectation of me and of members of my family and my community.

When we first moved into this neighborhood, my neighbor across the street, Mr. John. Black, older dude, introduces himself. The first thing he says to me is, “Are you registered to vote?” That literally was the “Welcome to the neighborhood. So happy you're here. Are you registered to vote? Early voting is now.” You know, and so I was very proud to tell him that I am a voter. And, you know, and I am not missing an election. I'm not missing a primary. Nothing. I'm, I'm there with you Mr. John.

And so, I think Black folks, there is the narrative that we are civically involved, that we have to be civically involved. Because if we are not active in our own communities, then we won't get what we deserve in our communities. Right? So yeah, that's, that's not the narrative that, that I know at all. You need to talk to your people about that.

[Laughter]

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, I definitely know that that is a narrative that is out there. And then I, like, think about it for a second and like, I, like, I don't know, I don't know that I know any Black people who are not civically involved. Like it is, it–

Dr. Val: Just think about it for a second!

Andrew: –it is baked in. Right? But I think there's something about that that's tied to the ways in which we, we White folk feel inclined or, or like the need to dehumanize–

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Andrew: –Black people in particular, and people of color in general. Which is, there is certainly a story in White culture that is, “It is good to be civically involved.” Good to participate in democracy. And that that's how your voice gets heard.

And, I don't think anybody would, would argue that Black people's voices are being heard in society right now. And so, the, kind of, only way you can square that is either, you know, sort of internalizing some structural issue, or tell yourself this story that “Black people must not care. Black people don't care about their neighborhoods. The reason that, you know, the, the Black side of town has trash in the street, or, you know, the sidewalks are all busted up or whatever is not because there has been disinvestment from those communities. The reason must be that Black people just don't care about their neighborhoods.”

Dr. Val: Wow. Yeah. No. Mm-hmm! Let the record show!

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. I wanna make clear I'm not, I'm not arguing that that's true!

Dr. Val: My people, in particular, Black women, we show up. You know? And I think folks who want to believe that anti-Black narrative of Black folks not caring about their communities, don't have an understanding of structural and institutional racism.

And I think what you said was important, “When I think about it for a second,” right? “When I think about it for a second, it doesn't make sense.” And so I'm hoping enough people pause for a second and say like, “Let me just actually look, Let me look into this. Let me, let me see,” because, absolutely (again just speaking for Black folks) working to make sure their communities have everything they need, have done that and still meet barrier, after barrier, after barrier.

Um, I am confident that's communities of color everywhere. And every little, like, piece of success is like a big deal! Cuz they have worked for, for years.

Andrew: Because nothing was handed out. I mean, which, which is actually probably how you can end up with a narrative that says that White people care more than Black people. Because if you look around, if you believe in meritocracy, if you believe that, like, advocating for things is how you get things, and you look at who has the most things, like, obviously “White people must care more, must advocate more,” when really, actually, so much of that is kind of handed out to, to White folks with, with very little energy or action on our behalf.,

Dr. Val: Why you bringing so much heat on Episode Two?

[Andrew and Val Laugh]

Dr. Val: We're trying to help y'all out here today.

Andrew: Yeah. Um,

Dr. Val: And yet we remain hopeful.

Andrew: Yes! Yes, we do remain hopeful. One of the things that, that leaves me feeling hopeful is thinking about what to do. As we mentioned last time, we're thinking this season about action steps, about things we can do rather than only thinking about things.

We have to think about things and think about things in a new way, but then we also have to change our behavior. So, Val, coming out of, coming out of this episode, the conversation with Heather McGhee, what are you thinking about for action steps?

Dr. Val: Um, I think one of the action steps that I'm interested in is getting more connected locally. So, you know, I'm relatively new to this state. Getting connected locally with organizations that align with my values so that I can continue to, to build these relationships. And I can continue to, to find opportunities to change the world with other people who are committed to that. And I imagine that, like, if it starts with something that I'm passionate about, say it's like my kid's school, and I am getting to know someone and they're passionate about the environment and climate change and how we can do that. Like, I am so excited about now doing that work with you too! Right?

That's the action that I wanna take. I'm, I'm ready to dig in. You know, I'm settled. I'm ready to dig in and, and get connected to the community locally.

Andrew: Yeah. I think, yeah, I love that. The idea of finding opportunities. You know, I think particularly I've been feeling lately to, to actually be in person together with people. To share space, you know. In the event you can share a meal. It's so powerful. Yeah, finding just small ways to be in physical space. Whether, even that's just something I think about most days now is getting out of my car when I take my youngest to elementary school. Or when I go to pick up my oldest at middle school. Getting out of the car and just, you know, standing outside with the opportunity to talk to, maybe it's just one person, maybe it's two people. To kind of, you know, nurture those, those little relationships, cuz you never know which of them are gonna blossom into something.

Dr. Val: And there's so much that happens that can be beautiful on a school campus and in the halls and there are opportunities right in your kids' classes to start having these meaningful conversations and relationships. And so, if we can model that for them, what a wonderful world! I'm feeling it! I'm feeling it.

Andrew: Yeah!

Dr. Val: So, are we ever gonna break bread? I mean, outside of me eating on the podcast and being muted?

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: Yes. Yes. We have to find a, we have to find a time.

Dr. Val: We will find a time.

Andrew: The other thing I'm thinking about is just the, the, the power of stories. You know, I think one of the things that The Sum of Us book was so amazing, cause it kind of, you know, highlighted these little individual snippets of people's lives and their stories.

And then the podcast is also really powerful because the medium of a podcast is really great for bringing people inside of relationships and this idea that the things we believe are because of the stories we've been told.

So, one action step would definitely wanna encourage listeners to do, is go listen to the Sum of Us podcast. And if you haven't read the book, read the book. And then think about sharing those stories because these stories of, of cross-racial solidarity are, are ways to give people hope. Are ways to kind of push back on the constant stream of news we hear about, about dysfunction, about separation And like, like Heather said, you know, going out around the world and talking to people who are trying to make the country a better place is, is hopeful because there is lots of that happening.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Remain curious good people.

Andrew: Beautiful! Well, listeners, we want to hear from you! Let us know what you're thinking, how you're feeling. What action steps you're taking as you're listening to the podcasts. Shoot us a voice memo.

Dr. Val: That would be awesome! We'll play your actions that you're taking. We love hearing from you.

Andrew: Yeah, that'd be great. Find the voice memos app. Record something and email it off to podcast@integratedschools.org. You can also help us, keep the podcast going. Help avoid potential future issues around recording or not!

Dr. Val: Please!

Andrew: By joining our patreon patreon.com/integratedschools. We'd be incredibly grateful for your support.

Dr. Val: Awesome. Thank you so much. Uh, share this podcast and all the others and the resources associated with them. Uh, we want to continue to build this community and we need your help.

Andrew: Yes. Well, Val, it is an honor as always to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time!