S7E16 – Anti-CRT, Book Bans, and A Call to HEAL

S7E16 - Anti-CRT, Book Bans, and A Call to HEAL

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Anti-CRT, Book Bans, and a Call to HEAL.

Val: Ooh! You got a lot in that title there.

Andrew: I know. We're packing it in. I think we had to cram that all into the title because we haven't really talked about all of the craziness that's going on right now. I mean, I feel like we've mentioned it in passing, but we certainly haven't addressed it head on. And it felt a little conspicuous. And so today's the day to do it!

Val: Today is the day. And I think we believe in books! And reading, and critical reading. And so, we hope that you all do too. That's our assumption out there, that the listeners also think that, you know, we should keep books on the shelves. And teach students how to really critically analyze them. Right?

Andrew: That's right. I think it's a fairly safe assumption given that that recent poll showed something like 80% of people don't believe in banning books. So, I feel like we're on pretty safe ground saying that. And yet, there is this massive wave of legislation sweeping the country that is pushing back on these ideas of both, you know, banning books, and then also what we teach to whom and when, uh, that feels really… dangerous in this moment.

Val: Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned healing because that's a significant part of our conversation today. So the guest, do you want to talk a little bit about him?

Andrew: Yeah. James Haslam is a senior fellow at Race Forward and, he is leading they're relatively new program called HEAL Together and HEAL stands for Honest Education, Action and Leadership together. And they're really looking to organize people across the country to push back on some of the anti-CRT stuff, the book bans. They're trying to galvanize people to come out and organize in favor of what they talk about as an honest, accurate, fully funded public education.

Val: Yeah, no, that's dope.

Andrew: Initially when CRT became this big thing that everyone was talking about, it felt like it was in such bad faith and such, like, obviously, like, ridiculous. No one's actually teaching kids critical race theory. So initially sort of like, well, this is silly. There's no sense in even engaging in it.

And obviously, we were wrong! Right? I kind of thought, “Oh, this will blow over.” And, and-

Val: Same!

Andrew: -it hasn't, and it's here, and it's grown and it's blown up.

But then the question was “So now what?” I mean, like, as you said, we assume that our listeners are in favor of books, and having a critical consciousness. So now what? Kind of like, what do we talk about, and this is where I felt really excited to learn about this HEAL Together work because it is really kind of concrete, on the ground, organizing work that's really easy for anybody to tap into, anywhere across the country and say like, “Okay, I believe in a multiracial democracy, I believe that multiracial public education is required to get there. What can I do?” And HEAL Together has really put together a number of things from, uh, virtual trainings that are just incredible, I encourage everybody to sign up.

The next one I think is tonight, if you're listening to this on release day. To a pledge you can sign online, to an organizing tool kit. There's just, like, all sorts of ways to actually, kind of, take concrete action.

Val: As you're talking, I'm thinking about just the need for this type of learning to happen, regardless of what the culture is in the moment. So like you, I thought, “Oh, this,” you know, “anti-CRT stuff will blow over. Cause obviously this doesn't make sense.” You know? This is not, this doesn't make sense! Why are we even tripping on this?

And it hasn't blown over. And I think part of the reason it hasn't blown over is because, just the general public wasn't educated on the topic and in the ways that HEAL is trying to do. Right? And so, regardless of what is happening politically or culturally, I think it's important to stay on top of these topics so that you can be an informed parent and that you can continue to, like, use your voice in ways that support the efforts of public schools and multi-racial democracy.

Andrew: Yeah. I think another reason that it hasn't felt as pressing to me as something that we should really be talking about is because there are a lot of cities where the anti-CRT stuff isn't really happening, or it's certainly not as, as prevalent.

So I think about Denver public schools, where I am, there's very little attention being paid to this right now. But you only have to go a couple of miles away to the closest suburb and all of a sudden it's rearing its head, fully.

And so, I think it's easy to get complacent in that situation, but it's really important that we all step up in this moment to say like, “Okay, no, this is actually, what we need for our kids is an honest education. What we need is an accurate education. What they need is a fully funded education. Wow can we come together in multiracial solidarity to advocate for that?”

Val: Yeah. You know, we obviously talk about race on the show a lot. How has that helped you, just as a learner? And maybe how do you think obviously, grade level, age level, appropriate conversations like this would help your young people?

Andrew: I wouldn't be here were it not for starting to do my own learning beyond what I was taught in school. I would not care about school integration as a topic. The story that I was told about this country, about the founding of this country, about how this country works, was, was deeply flawed.

And I think, like, held me back from both from a kind of a deeper understanding that feels important, but also from the ability to be in relationship with you. The ability to engage in these conversations. And so, my life, I think, would certainly be much worse were it not for really engaging in that kind of critical learning. And hard sometimes! For sure. I think there is, you know, unhealed racial trauma we've talked about before. But also the possibilities feel really important and powerful and worth exploring.

Val: Yeah. I love that this conversation focuses on solidarity, like what we do here. So thank you, friend!

Andrew: Absolutely.

Alright, let's take a listen to James and then we'll come back and talk about what we heard.

Val: Sweet.

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James Haslam: Thanks so much for having me. My name is James Haslam. I am based in Essex, Vermont, and a parent of two students in our local school system and a senior fellow at Race Forward, working on HEAL Together.

Andrew: That's awesome. How old are your kids?

James Haslam: 10 and 11. Two boys.

Andrew: Wow. I've got an eight year old and a ten-year-old daughter.

James Haslam: They are a lot of fun. It’s good ages.

Andrew: That's great. How did you come to be involved in organizing and education as a field for organizing? What led you to this point where you're working at Race Forward?

James Haslam: Yeah, good question. I've actually been, an organizer. I’ve worked with the labor movement and community organizing movements for over two decades up in the Northeast. Mainly in Vermont and New Hampshire. I, I've worked, you know, education justice issues around schools, around workers rights in the school system.

About seven years ago, I founded an organization called Rights and Democracy, which is a human rights organization that, that certainly believed that public education is a foundation of democracy.

And the reason why I'm now at Race Forward is, is, I just got real fired up about what was happening with these “culture wars” that were really trying to, to divide communities. Pit communities against each other. You know, trying to attack really good work addressing racial justice issues in, in schools and, and saw it happening in my own community, where my kids go to school. Saw it happening across the region and then increasingly across the country. And was really terrified about what would– you know, this is the last thing our schools needed, given what, where we're at as a country coming out of the pandemic, how hard it is to be an educator, to retain educators.

And, and it was really concerned about the future of our country. If, if we didn't do something about it.

Andrew: Yeah. Before we get into what there is to do, can we step back a little bit? Why organizing, why labor rights? What in your background led you to care about that or dedicate your life to that?

James Haslam: You know, it's funny, especially thinking about the topic around access to history. As a young person, I, I got really interested in the history of our country. I realized in my early twenties that I, you know, I didn't really know enough about the history of our country and the history of the world to really have a, have a worldview that made much sense.

And so I ended up getting really interested in how change happens, how positive change happens. And a lot of it, I realized, was because people came together and, and organized. You know, that we, you know, got interested in, in the labor movement from working jobs. Uh, big, big multinational companies and seeing how people were treated at some of the most profitable companies in the country.

And, you know, I realized that the way that things changed was by people coming together and organizing. And that that was a piece of democracy that didn't get talked about enough.

And I wanted to be involved in that. I, I never imagined. I was like, you know, big into sports. I wanted to, like, go into, like, sports media. I never imagined spending my life as a, as an organizer. But, but just seeing what people can accomplish by coming together and, and taking collective action together. You know, sometimes it feels daunting. You know, all the challenges in the world as an individual. But, but seeing people win things and in their communities and win better schools. Win better rights at work, really hooked me to the idea of organizing. And so, I've spent my whole career now for the last 20, 23 years, helping people organize.

Andrew: That's amazing. There's a story, you know, “The moral arc of the universe bends towards justice” and the way that that story gets told, I think, so often is that like, that just “happens” by itself, that, like, the moral arc of the universe is on an inexorable path towards justice by itself.

And I think it's, yeah, it is, it is organizing. And as people coming together that actually push it towards justice, if it is going to move towards justice.

James Haslam: That's exactly right. And it's, it's, that's why it's fascinating on this issue is because, like, I didn't, I felt like there was a point in my life where I really didn't understand, you know, how the country works. And, and, you know, the history has not always been taught well around, you know, the legacy of slavery, the legacy of exploitation of workers. The legacy of, of the genocide of the Indigenous people of this country. And so trying to make sense of that and then figure out like, what do we do? You know, given, given the, the cards we've been dealt and this historical period. You know, it's, it's, it's something that I'm really passionate, that, you know, people are gonna make their own choices, but having access to that information.

You know, having the history, the triumphs and the tragedies of our country. Really important for us to be able to navigate, you know, the years ahead.

Andrew: Yeah. We are in a moment where it feels like the educational space in this country is in desperate need of mobilizing, you know, people of, people of good will, people who care about the role that education plays in a democracy. And that kind of led you to Race Forward and then, and then HEAL Together.

And wondering if you could just tell us, kind of, who is Race Forward for anybody who doesn't know. And then, what is the HEAL Together project as part of Race Forward?

James Haslam: Yeah. Race Forward, for folks that don't know has been it's it's just celebrated last year, its 40th anniversary.

It's, it's a national racial equity organization that is committed to a just, multiracial democratic society. You know, their, their work on a whole bunch of different projects around the country. They've been the publisher of Color Lines, publication that explores these topics. They have a fantastic racial equity conference called Facing Race. This year will be in November in Arizona. Do a lot of great work and our big stakeholders in multiracial democracy.

So they, the reason why I joined the team and I'm working on this H.E.A.L. Together project, (which is Honest Education Action and Leadership) is because they saw the risks of what was happening with the attacks on public education and the attacks on racial justice with these manufactured “culture wars.” And I wanted to do something about it.

And they, they work with a whole host of organizations and partners throughout the country. And, you know, they're not trying to do it alone, but really kind of serve as a hub of bringing people together to do this work. So, we're really excited. We just, just had the launch back on March 30th and we've been really excited about seeing how many people want to get involved.

Andrew: Yeah. You know, big, big picture, what's HEAL Together’s goal? What's the, what's the hope to achieve with this, this program?

James Haslam: Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, so there's short term and long term goals that we have in mind. One is, you know, we, we want to help organize community. Right now there's, you know, there's these big dark money forces that are coming into many communities and politicizing school board races in ways that have not happened before. They're, they're trying to do whatever they can to pit people against each other. Whether it's critical race theory or other issues. You know, banning books around, teach around, LGBT issues or you know, obviously last year it was a lot around the mask mandates and the opening up of schools. You know, whatever they can find ways to pit parents against each other, they've, they've been using.

And that is very dangerous for just the state of where our education system is. So we're trying to unite our communities, you know, really heal! Given what, what the last couple of years that we've all been through, what communities have been through and tap into the values that we all share.

That the public schools are the heart of our communities. It's how we literally cultivate the future. We set up our children to thrive. We set up our communities to thrive and they only work if, if people come together and support them.

And so, these efforts are, are not only, you know, trying to politically divide people, they're attacks on the public education system. So, we're trying to show up right now in as many communities as we can to support parents, students, educators coming together at these times. This is a critical year, critical time in our country. So there's those kinds of short-term goals. Give people the tools to organize right now, this summer, this spring, this next coming fall. And, and, and try to bring people together.

But, you know, we're also really you know, have in mind that these are not things that will be solved in 2022. Our, our, our public education system is infrastructure for our community in many rural areas and suburban areas. It really literally is the heart of the community. It's the, where civic life happens. It's how community is really cultivated. And so we're, we're trying to help give people the tools to organize for the long haul. To build organizations of students, parents, and educators, families.

Andrew: So the hope is, right, short term, let's push back on the, kind of, culture war, anti-CRT, book bans. But more importantly, really build the infrastructure for people to invest in their public schools. To create the, kind of, collective action that can make sure that our schools continue to be the, kind of, foundation of democracy.

James Haslam: Yeah, absolutely. Public education is so critical for the health of our country and the health of our communities. It's, it's, you know, played such an important role. And it's been something that, you know, from the very beginning, no one ever kind of gave us public education. It wasn't like a, you know, as, as working class people and communities, people had to come together to build these schools in, in many places and to, and to struggle for the right to public education.

Certainly multiracial public education is a foundation for multiracial democracy. It's so critical for us to understand that, like, this is a project that is still being built. You know, we, it wasn't really set up to be multiracial education. We weren't really set up to be a multiracial democracy, but that's the promise of our country and the promise of our communities.

And, you know, if people don't like the kind of level of discord, of contention, of division that there is in this country, you know, we think the best way to be able to heal is, is to come together. Learn about our past. Think about what we, what we need to do to have a functioning democratic society together and give future generations those tools to learn the lessons from, from our generations and previous generations. To, to chart a path ahead that, that doesn't have that level of division that has, doesn't have that level of injustice and unfairness, but, but actually can, can make sure that we have communities in a country that thrives. Where everyone can, can have the basic rights. And that's the, that's the promise of our country, and that's why public education is so central to that project.

Andrew: Mm. Yes, sir. That makes such a powerful, compelling case for what we want to see. And I think it's so important to frame this in terms of, you know, not just kind of reactionary what we don't want. And I think it's easy to look at some of the legislation that's coming out across the country and say, “We don't want that,” but I think it's so, so powerful and helpful to kind of start with the affirmative case. Here's what we actually do want, which is, you know, I think as you say an honest, accurate, and fully funded public education, because that is the path to a true multiracial democracy. But what are the forces that we're up against in that fight right now? And big, big picture of what's happening across the country that is pushing back against that?

James Haslam: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And not something that gets talked about nearly enough. You know, we, we hear the headlines around the legislation that's being advanced in states around the country and, and the contention at school board meetings. Too often, the mainstream media doesn't ask the question, “Where did this all come from?”

And, and that was one of the reasons that really fired me up about this situation is because, you know, it wasn't an accident that all of a sudden people are hearing this term critical race theory, which was, uh, you know, an important, but somewhat obscure academic concept for law schools and, and higher education. And certainly not something that, that was being taught in K through 12 schools.

And so why all of a sudden is was this, the boogeyman? That parents were fired up around? There were very genius, I would say somewhat evil, forces of, of organizations that, they were plotting, you know? Like, they, they saw the uprisings around what happened after the murder of George Floyd that, you know, they saw how many communities were saying, like, “We need to get serious and actually start, talk about things like systemic racism and and start teaching some of this history and help, help students make sense of what happened with George Floyd” and why so many communities, you know, in the streets organizing for racial justice.

And so they, they almost immediately, like weeks after that, started making this case for a war on critical race theory. And that, that there was this indoctrination happening in schools and, and really trying to have a chilling effect on these important conversations that were happening in this country while, you know, feeding into their years long efforts to try to privatize the public education system.

So, kind of, the same forces that, that have been trying to defund the school systems. You know, they, they invested in, in this effort, helping the think tanks that were working on it.

And then they started building these – you know, we, we would call them “AstroTurf organizations” cause they're, you know, they, they kind of present as grassroots. Grassroots as a term of like, you know, community based, volunteer led efforts of, in this case parents and students, working on this stuff.

And so you have this, you know, group, it's called Moms for Liberty. It's really kind of “Moms against Liberty,” but it's, you know, that, tha you know, started popping up around the country. And this is, how a culture war is manufactured. And it's fueled by this, you know, billionaire class money. But, you know, they have this infrastructure with their think tanks, their, you know, network of, of right-wing pundits and, and, then the politicians kind of pick up the script and, and you start seeing. You know, first attack on CRT, then they're like, “Well, it's, you know, kind of have a war against wokeness” and, and using those kinds of terms. And just trying to, you know, tap into the fears and the tensions and the kind of worst parts of the challenges in our community.

So, it's part of the 21st century, you know, struggle for democracy that we're in right now.

Andrew: Yeah, I think you, you wrote in an op-ed that “what we're currently seeing is a backlash to progress. A last ditch effort to maintain power.” I think about, we just had Dr. Carol Anderson on, who wrote White Rage, and she talks about this, kind of, White rage backlash that inevitably follows, you know, racial progress.

And you, you take a step towards a more inclusive, more open society. And there is this White rage backlash, and we saw it with Reconstruction. We saw it with the civil rights, you know in the wake of Brown v Board and massive resistance. We saw it certainly, you know, Donald Trump as a White rage backlash to Barack Obama being elected to the presidency.

And I think, what we're seeing right now is the backlash to, you know, the largest protests in the history of this country, in the history of the world perhaps, around racial justice in the wake of George Floyd's murder.

And that this is really kind of an, an outgrowth of that kind of the, you know, White power structure freaking out and saying, have to do something to maintain power.

James Haslam: That's right. Dr. Carol Anderson's books are perfect examples of the kind of history that if, if, if our communities are prevented to learn, that we are set up to continue to fall into the same traps. You know, what they've always been worried about, you know, the, the, the elites that have, just, unaccountable power. That have more money than they could ever possibly spend. What they’ve always been afraid of is, you know, is people coming together and say, “Hey, that's not fair!” Like, you know, you're going to have to share. Like, we're in this together. And so in this country, the history -Carol Anderson writes about it, lots of great historians have written about- is that the way that racism has been strategically used to pit people against each other. These, you know, the same kind of sometimes called “plantation politics,” the same politics that we were dealing with in our country during slavery, where poor Whites were given, you know, just a little bit of privilege to feel like they were better off.

You know, that same dynamic has been happening through the years. Instead of being able to try to figure out how to have a multiracial society where everyone can thrive, these forces are, are really trying to scare (many cases White parents) from the notion of losing privileges in it, for their kids and their families. And, and, and basically making it a zero sum game that if, if we have racial justice, if Black and Brown folks in this country actually had justice and fairness, then that means that White families have to go backwards.

And that notion is, is, is how they kind of cultivate the tensions and tap into people's fears about that, certainly a precarious situation with our economy and the pandemic and so on, that our communities are vulnerable to those, those manufactured culture wars.

This is why it's a fascinating piece around this is it's, it's accessing the history of how this has been done to our communities again and again, to divide us.

Which is what they're focusing on and trying to divide our communities around. But, but we also have moments from history of when communities come together. This is why they're afraid of it. They know that multiracial solidarity has been how we've achieved great things in this country. This is how we've fought for democracy. How we fought for voting rates. It's it's when Black, Brown, White communities come together and fight for a future for everyone is, is, when we win.

Andrew: Right.

James Haslam: And so that what they're trying to prevent.

Andrew: Yeah. There is something about this moment that feels so precarious. Like, there is legitimate anxiety throughout society because of the pandemic, because of, you know, social media and technology changes and, and AI, and like all, all of these ways in which the way things have been feel somewhat precarious. And so there's an opportunity to kind of prey on people's fears.

So there’s ways in which right now feels really, kind of, abnormal. And, and yet, if you look through history, if you sort of have an accurate reading of history, you know, as, as Carol Anderson tells us and so many other people tell, you see this is not the first time that there have been organizations like what's called Mothers for Liberty. You know, there have been, we often talk about Elizabeth McCray's Mothers of Massive Resistance. These, kind of, you know, organizations that are ostensibly about parenting, about parent rights, about, you know, civil society and, and democracy, but are actually really kind of set out to replicate White supremacy. To further the divisions. To, to keep us from coming together to keep us from joining in solidarity to fight for justice.

James Haslam: That's right. It's remarkable what they're able to do, because, you know, literally what they're doing is not in the benefit of the vast majority of people. The people who benefit the most from these efforts are the people that, that already have, you know, more wealth than we could possibly imagine.

But somehow they're able to, to, to galvanize, you know, a critical mass of people. To really, you know, to fight against their own interests. And in this case, you know, the, the efforts to try to privatize the public education system is, is, you know, that is negative impact for, for-

Andrew: 99% of people.

James Haslam: 99% of this country.

And, and yet, you know, they're, they're able to do it. And then they're smart about it.

So this is one of the things for HEAL Together in this effort is like, you know, we need to bring people together. And it's not simple. I mean, it's not rocket science, but, but it does take some dedication and support. And, and we have to understand what we're up against and, and how we can, you know, unite to win.

And so it's, it's a complicated struggle that we're in. But the great thing about it is that, you know, we're seeing parents, students, educators, despite all the odds, you know, despite everything that they've been going through, coming together and standing up against it and winning.

So, so there's, there's reason for a lot of hope and optimism. We just have a lot of work ahead of us.

Andrew: Yeah. Certainly broadly across the country, there was a recent study, something like 80% of people are opposed to banning books across ideology, across, you know, political persuasion. That is not something that people are in favor of. So it does seem like this, you know, a lot of this stuff is coming out of a very loud, very well-funded, very well coordinated minority of people.

What are the most egregious examples of laws that are being passed of places where people are really feeling the impacts of this locally?

James Haslam: Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, so it's for us, it's been a little bit of a daunting project because this is, you know, we're a national project. We think this work needs to happen everywhere. And, and there's, you know, 16,000 schools, school districts and something like 99,000 public schools.

One of the places that we've found that, that they're focusing a lot of the attention, is in some of the suburban areas, where the population is changing. It's becoming more multiracial. And so there's, there's some of that tension for them to try to tap into and and, and galvanize White families to be scared about what's happening.

You know, there's been some good documentation about, like, examples of this. If anyone hasn't checked out, like, the South Lake podcast about the Dallas suburb that, that has been going through that. That sort of thing is happening to some of this scale all over the place.

Obviously, most recently, starting last year, we started seeing the state legislation, you know, being introduced. And, you know, this is one of the reasons why I got involved in it and the folks that in, in my community is because New Hampshire was one of the early states that had one of these divisive concept bans, had that Republican controlled state house and governor ended up putting into the state budget. And, and when we first saw it, we thought it was just like, oh, some bizarre idea that, that, that the New Hampshire Republican Party came up with. And when we started talking to Race Forward, they were like, “We hadn't heard of it, but let's do some research.” And then, you know, they found that it had already been introduced in a, in a dozen other state legislatures. So this is, you know, legislation that was crafted by one of these think tanks.

And so, yeah, so we, you know, obviously right now, pick up the news, you'll see what's happening in Florida and Texas and these culture wars, you know, really moving through the state legislative bodies in. But, you know, there, there, there's hardly a place where there isn't some degree of, of this happening, both at a school district level and at a state level.

Andrew: Yeah. It is showing up, kind of, everywhere. I think as you mentioned, there is some, some brilliance in, the other side that the focus on, recently becoming more, more multiracial suburban areas where there's more likely to be that kind of concern.

There is, it does feel like at least to me (I mean, I'm in Denver) there in Denver Public schools proper, there, there are some forces but largely it's ignored. And, you know, and I don't know that that will always be the case, but certainly right in this moment, I think there's a lot of urban centers where, where people aren't really paying as much attention to it because it's not impacting us directly.

What's the kind of risk of being complacent right now? Why should I care about this?

James Haslam: Right. I think it's not an accident that in a lot of urban schools that, that things are much better. Partly that's because we have to acknowledge the organizing that has gone into a lot of these places for education justice. This has been a struggle. People, parents, students, educators have been fighting for, for, for these just school systems and public education. In, in, especially in the largest school systems for, for decades. And, and that, that is what they're trying to stop from happening everywhere.

So anyone who's a stakeholder in democracy, you know, needs to be paying attention to about this. Even if it's not, you know, a huge issue specifically at your school. The, the thing is in a lot of urban areas, they might, they might just show up differently. There's a lot of efforts to undermine public education. And in suburban and rural areas of, you know, the main strategy right now has been around these culture wars. And other areas, it might be around vouchers, other ways to try to defund and undermine public school systems. And so it's important for us to see that as all one struggle. That the same forces that are trying to privatize public education are also trying to use these culture wars to, to disrupt public education. And so, there's that piece of it.

The other piece of it is in many of these urban areas while it might not be a thing in Denver or in Milwaukee, you know, Central, the suburbs around it are, are some of the places where these culture wars are very intense. And so, even if not in your specific school system, right next door, often the case they'll, there'll be reasons and, and efforts that to ways to support. To be able to be helpful on, on these efforts and, and we need, we need everyone involved.

Andrew: Yeah. So, so what does that look like? Like, what, what, you know. Here, here I am. I believe deeply that a multiracial public education is the foundation of a multiracial democracy, and that public education is under attack. And that, you know, we are kind of on the precipice, both of public education and, you know, how, how sustainable is it? But also, I think not unreasonable to be worried about the future of our democracy in this moment. I care deeply about that. I believe in that. What, what do I do? How, how does my life look different tomorrow if I want to take action about that?

James Haslam: Yeah, that's a great question. So we are trying to provide tools for folks that want to take up that question. The good news is that, that there's a lot of people already, you know, doing that organizing. And so, one thing that we're trying to do is connect people. We're hearing from a lot of people, sometimes from the same cities that are doing this work, want to do this work, but haven't connected with each other. And, and so we want to plug people into the good work that's happening.

In some areas, there, there needs to be new organizing efforts of students, parents, educators. That, that, that organizing needs to get started, and a lot of times it just needs to be built upon, and we're trying to give the tools for both of those things.

So, people go to healtogether.org and we have now an organizing toolkit that can be used. We'll be continuing to update it with lessons and case studies. And then we've started this free public national training series every other Wednesday. We have an online workshop, people can register for also at that healtogether.org website, and get organizing skills.

So it's, you know, thinking of yourself as an organizer, that no one is going to do it by themselves, but if we get together and invite people to get involved, we invite our fellow parents. We think about who all those parents are, and we invite them to, to get involved at whatever stage that they can. We, we invite students, we work with educators and educator unions. We reach out to community stakeholders, and we, we get involved. And in an ideal way, you know, this is why, you know, sometimes these are short term efforts that we're trying to stop some bad thing happening in a school board election, or school board vote, or a budget fight, or something. But in the ideal setting, you know, that kind of organizing of parents and students and teachers, we can go out with people and just ask them like, “What would you like to see in your school? What do you think our community needs? What do you think our schools need?” And, and have the, that result of those conversations really inform what we're fighting for. How we can improve that effort so that people know what's happening.

It's an education experience when people are out knocking on doors, talking to people, they'll, they'll learn more about what's happening. But also we learn, by having those conversations, when we hear about what people want, what are their dreams and hopes for their schools, you know, what are the biggest issues.

And then we can continue to improve our schools. So that's why we see it as both a kind of a short-term effort, but ideally also a long-term effort that that kind of those conversations are happening. That people feel that ownership over their own public schools and it's a source of pride.

Andrew: And build those relationships. I mean, I think, yeah, the trainings. I've been to the first few trainings, they've, they've been incredible. Definitely encourage people to sign up for all of the upcoming trainings.

But I think one of the things that I took away from the most recent training around organizing was just, you know, the power of relationships. And we talk about that, on the, on the podcast as well, that, you know, being in relationship, being in community is kind of the first step before, before taking action that it's easy, you know, particularly as kind of a, you know, a White man I can think about, well, here's, here's what I think should happen.

And society will, you know, in general kind of privilege my opinion. But, that's kind of dangerous unless you're in community, unless you're in relationship, unless you are building that multiracial coalition. And so, building for, for short-term wins feels like, at least to me, like an opportunity to build those relationships. An opportunity to say, “Okay, here's this thing that we came together and we did.” And maybe it's maybe, yeah, maybe it's a new crosswalk or maybe it's a full-time nurse at your school, or maybe it's, like, a different reading curriculum or something that you come together that feels like a relatively small win.

But as you mentioned at the beginning, this, you know, it feels like a really daunting task, but small wins lead to bigger wins, lead to bigger wins. Lead to deeper relationships, lead to bigger community, leads to more solidarity, leads to more people coming together.

James Haslam: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And the kind of big picture is like, what we're trying to do is in relationship with each other, like you said. There's there's forces that, that don't want that. You know, they don't want us to be in relationship. They don't really want a community of people that are working to solve problems together, and they don't want that kind of democracy. They don't want community. They want a, like, just a neighborhood of consumers. That are buying their stuff and, and, and falling in line and, you know, cleaning up after them. And so what we're trying to do is, is, is build that community.

And so, that's why I'm so excited about what HEAL Together is doing and around, like, the struggle for education justice. Cause what better way to build community than our schools? You know, that the hearts of our community, the way we cultivate the future.

One, one policy that, that I'll mention that, that some of the folks that we're working with are working on is a policy called Community Schools.

And this is an effort to essentially like, you know, optimize the opportunity of having a public school at the center of your community. How do we, how do we make that school as, as helpful to the whole community as possible? So some of it is, like, location of services so that, you know, you have an opportunity to have a better public health system when you have some health services in the schools where children are going, where parents are dropping

Andrew: Families are showing up there every day, you may as well capitalize on that to, yeah.

James Haslam: So that's, that's, that's part of it, but it's also like, we have these buildings, these classrooms, this infrastructure for our community, how can that, that, that, that school also serve the community? Serve adults. Serve families.

So in many places, you know, that that becomes an opportunity to have adult education. So people can, you know, help figure out how to prepare their taxes, or write resumes, take other classes, learn interesting things about history. You know, so how, how do we make those schools, you know, as powerful as possible for, for the thriving of our community.

So that's, that's what the promise is. Some of the times we have to start these organizing efforts to prevent things getting worse. But the opportunity is, is pretty great that by coming together, we can really improve our communities for the future generations as well.

Andrew: And I think you've, you've kind of mentioned it a couple of times here, but why this kind of moment of book banning and, and pushback to teaching accurate history feels so powerful, because this is not something that hasn't been done in the past. We have not done it enough. We have not done it consistently enough, and there's always been a, kind of, White rage backlash to it, but it is in understanding the past, and the ways that we have made progress, the ways we have bent the moral arc towards justice in the past has been through multiracial coalition building, and through people coming together to advocate. And so if we don't know that history, it's much harder to see a path forward.

James Haslam: Absolutely. I mean, I see it in my own life. I realized, you know, the people that are in power, they've always understood (often better than, than we have) about what our potential is to create change. And, and how we do have common interests with each other. And if we come together, what big of a threat we can be to their, you know, exploitation of people on the planet.

And, you know, I've lived it in my own life. It was, you know, I, by learning some of the history of, of the people who came before us and organized for justice. For the civil rights movement, by the labor movement, women's movement, you know, the, you know, that that's how change happened.

And if I didn't know that history, I might not have, you know, dedicated my life to that change. So they want, they don't want people getting funny ideas about actually having a democracy. About actually having justice. And so that's, you know, it's, it's very smart for them to try to prevent that history from being taught and from public education, from thriving. And it's just so much in our interest to not let them win.

Andrew: Yeah, it's super powerful. But I, I can't let you go without acknowledging, I think we've had 87-some odd episodes on the podcast. We have never had a conversation that is just between two White men on, on this podcast! And I think, you know, in general there's plenty of panels out there that are just featuring White men. But, you know, I think that this opportunity for, for us to talk, you know, just education, school issues that are so often relegated to the realm of mothers or aunties or grandmothers. That schools are women's work, and we see that in the Mothers for Liberty but, why is it okay that we have a panel that’s just you and I, two White men talking about this?

James Haslam: Well, I'm, I'm glad that you, you know, that this is, this is the first out of 87. That, that's great. You know, I, I do think, you know, that it's really important. I'm a White, straight male. I have a lot of privilege in this world, in this country, and with that comes a tremendous amount of responsibility.

You know, I think White dads that believe in multiracial democracy need to do everything we possibly can to fight for it. And we have a lot of responsibility to do it. And, you know, absolutely that the voices of those most impacted, the leadership of those most impacted, needs to be centralized.

There's a reason why I'm excited that Race Forward is leading this project as a multuracial organization that has powerful people of color that I'm taking direction from in, in, in, in this movement. But it's also really important that as, you know, white guys, that we get out and talk to, you know, the, the problems, (and this is what Carol Anderson's history will teach you) the problems that we're up against are often in our communities. They are White guys, they're White people that, that, that are being pitted against each other and against people of color, in ways that the powerful are manipulating our communities. And so, you know, no we, we can't rely on other people to do that work for us.

We have to do that work. We have to organize our community. So I, you know, I think if any White guys are listening to this you know, I, I hope you'll take seriously about the responsibility that we have to our children, to our communities, to organize for racial justice.

Andrew: Yes, sir. I'm so grateful for all the work that you're doing. Definitely grateful for you taking the time to come on and share about it. And, you know, your whole, whole career of work, I think is a, it's an important piece. We are at a precarious moment, and I think it is organizations like HEAL Together that are, that are going to be our hope for getting out of it. So, just really grateful to you for coming on.

James Haslam: Andrew, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for doing this podcast for, for building this work, and for partnering with HEAL Together. We're, we're super excited with what Integrated Schools has been, been doing and the work we can do together.

Andrew: Awesome. Go to healtogether.org, sign the pledge, download the toolkit. Definitely sign up for the trainings. They've, they've been incredible. And, yeah! Go out there and let's, let's come together and change the world.

James Haslam: Awesome. Thank you so much. Can't wait to see folks at the upcoming trainings and hear from you about how we can support you organizing in your school district.

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Andrew: So, Val, what did you think?

Val: Yeah. One of the things that James said that really stands out to me about public schools, the heart of our communities. And as an educator, like, I really take that seriously. That is the place where students are required to be, for a significant portion of their early lives.

It's a place where there can be, in integrated spaces, just a beautiful mix of people, and cultures, and, and different ways of knowing, and just ways in which people can learn about one another. And I don't know that we take advantage of that type of diversity in those spaces enough.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And, you know, thinking about how much time caregivers and community members come out to support young people in these places? Whether it's through arts programs or athletic programs. So we really are the heart of a community. Right? And we don't take advantage of that possibility to teach one another how to communicate across cultures and races. We don't do that nearly enough.

And as a person with hypertension who has to take really good care of her heart, like, we have to be intentional about taking care of the heart of our communities. And that's schools. And there's things that we have to do every day, choices that we have to make, you know, to be really intentional about caring for that. And I think it's been neglected for quite some time. And um, I'm glad that we're talking about it here and I hope people are committed to that.

Andrew: Yeah. I love that idea of the actual heart of a community, and, and you need to take care of it, because there is, this, and I, this was one of the things I, like, feel really inspired by HEAL's message, is this kind of short-term goal and long-term goal. That there's the short term goal, which is, like, we're in crisis right now. You know, there's, like, impending heart attack with the way that public education is under attack from funding, to curriculum, to how parents are expected to and able to engage in school board meetings. All of these things, it feels like where there's sort of this kind of acute crisis. And we definitely need to address that.

But, the model, the vision that they have is really a way to address that in a way that builds, like, long-term health. You know, that it's not just “Let's fix this immediate health issue,” but “How do we develop new, healthy habits that are sustainable in the long-term?” Because if we can come together in multiracial solidarity, and, and push back on the legislation that's happening right down. Push back on this acute moment, that's a win that we can then translate into, “Well, what else do you want to see for your school?” How else can we then sort of get together and say, “This is what our kids need. This is what our kids deserve. This is how we can actually create an educational environment that serves all of our kids.”

Val: Yeah. I'm thinking about my own journey and it's unfortunate that oftentimes you ignore the symptoms, which I think we've done as a society for quite some time, and that you require a crisis to act? And yet, I'm glad we are at a place that we see an urgent need to act, an urgent need to be engaged in our school board meetings, and urgent needs to have our voices heard.

And I, I always want to encourage caregivers out there that if your teacher is doing a good job, please tell them! Right? If you are happy with the way that they are talking about hard history and, you know, really grappling with these topics, please let them know. That goes a long way.

Andrew: Yeah. I, to that point, I mean, both speaking up at your teacher, speaking up at your school, and then speaking up at the school board. You know, one of, one of the sort of mantras at Integrated Schools has often been, you know, “Show up, shut up, stay put.” And, and I, I think there's real value in that. Certainly newly arriving White parents into global majority schools, there is a risk of coming in and trying to take over. And so, I think it is really important to, kind of, slow down and get into community, and get to know people. And this feels like a moment where nobody can be quiet. Where we really actually all need to step up and take action. If we believe that public education is foundational to democracy, because, because the risks are real right now.

And so, another reason that HEAL felt like a great program to kind of tap people into is that it feels like concrete, actionable things that people can do. Regardless of, kind of, how long you've been in your school, regardless of how deeply you've formed bonds in your community (because I know so many people have not had the opportunity to do that because of the pandemic), there is still this way to kind of tap into a broader national movement of folks who are saying, you know, “It's time to stand up. It's time to, to speak up and it's time to fight for education.”

Val: Yeah. I'm thinking about the mantra is “Show up, shut up and stay put.” And, from just my perspective, as a Black parent, I would offer an addendum. Are you open to hearing it?

Andrew: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Val: You know, I'm thinking like “Show up, listen, speak up, stay put.” Right? So, like, I know what you meant by the “shut up” is like, you just need to listen to what is happening here. And, at the same time, I don't want people to confuse “shut up” for, like, not saying anything when things are bad. No, that's when you speak up. Right?

So, that opportunity to, like, listen, understand what folks are saying, speak up and then stay put, right? Don't, don't run when it, when it gets difficult. I think that's important. I think that is important.

Andrew: Y”Listen first then speak up.” That may be the– the idea was “shut up” was like, I know, “White parent” that your inclination (and I know it because I felt it in myself) is to show up and “go,” and like, “Okay, I'm going to fix this school. And here I am to save the day.” And, and to interrupt that is, I think what the origin of “shut up” was, but if all you ever do is shut up, A) you're, like, not actually improving the school at all.

Val: Absolutely not!

Andrew: And B) you're, like, not, not actually doing this work of, like, building solidarity, and building community, and building relationship, because if I never, if I never bring any of myself to a conversation, why would you be friends with me? Right?

Like if, if I'm not, if not, if I'm not vulnerable, if I'm not showing up as who I am, and I'm not bringing anything. If all I'm doing is saying “I'm standing on the sidelines and not, and not participating, cause I don't want to quote, unquote take up space,” then I'm not actually building relationships and building community.

Val: Right. And you can't keep it as an intellectual endeavor, right? Like, this is absolutely heart work. And so, I think if I met you, and like you were all, like, only intellectual about this race thing, I'd be like, “Andrew, I don't know if I can be on this podcast, cause… you wearing me out.”

So we need, we need joy. We absolutely need joy. And I think joy does get to the heart. Right? You can, kind of, observe joy, but to feel it, you know, it's got to go back to the heart.

Andrew: That is the sustaining bit of it, is the, is the joy that you find in community, is the joy you find in solidarity because, because it's, yeah! It's draining work. It's hard, you know? These conversations-

Val: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew: -are not easy. And certainly the, the forces that we are up against right now, who are pushing back on the idea of democracy and the idea of public education, are strong, are well-funded. But I don't know, like I, I wonder if there is joy.

Val: I don't believe there is, over there.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Not the sustaining kind. Maybe the kind, when you are all geeked out about someone else's pain? But, that can't feel really good. Right?

Andrew: Yeah. There's lots of anger. And I think we said this some other-

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: -episode, right? Anger burns fast and bright, but it doesn't sustain. And so, yeah, it's the solidarity, it's the joy, it's the relationships that keep these things going.

I mean, we need some anger. We need some burning bright right now, because the risks are real, I think. You know, because the, I don't know what it is, we're up to 20-some odd states or something where there, if some of these bills passed, it's scary. We need, we need some bright, but we also need to do it in a way that is sustainable, in a way that builds relationship, in a way that deepens community.

Val: I think this is a good time to name that, you know, you and James are both White men talking about this conversation. And, that's rare for this podcast!

Andrew: It's never happened!

Val: What! So, you know, why do you think it's important for listeners to hear two White men talking about this?

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, in thinking about it, 87 episodes, we've never had just two White men. We've had, I think, one White male guest before. We've definitely have had conversations with just White people. And I've thought about this just in terms of, a lot of the folks who make up Integrated Schools are women. And I think that's, you know, largely due to the fact that so often in society, we kind of put the school conversation onto women. Who is in charge of schools, who's making decisions about schools, who's mobilizing around schools. I mean, there's a reason that it was with McCray's book. It's called Mothers of Massive Resistance. And I think, uh, it's important to acknowledge that. I think it's important too, to have those conversations.

And I think it's important that men, particularly White men, feel some sense of obligation to these conversations because the fact that it has been often viewed as women's work-

Val: Yup.

Andrew: -doesn't negate our responsibility for being active participants in trying to improve things.

Val: Especially I think if, um, the White men in the space have just the more developed, critical consciousness and are willing to, like, have these conversations, I am lucky to be in community with White men who are doing the work and who are willing to have these conversations. And I mean, you know, y'all got some issues! Let's, we'll just say that! Y'all need, y'all, y'all need, to, you know, work on a little branding! But, um, but, but definitely those of you who are committed to this work, elevating your voices, I think is important because unfortunately we still do have this racial hierarchy and this patriarchy, right? And so-

Andrew: Right.

Val: -that'll probably really freak the bad guys out of some White men started talking about, “We need multiracial communities.” I don't know, it's going to be all types of trouble if that happens!

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it is, it's a fine line to walk because I, you know, yeah. I, I acknowledge that when I walk into a space that I am given a degree of credibility that is entirely unearned, and, and that comes with a sense of responsibility.

I feel like there is some obligation to, you know, kind of harness that and, and use it for good. And it's really easy to come up with my own ideas of good. It’s really easy to decide what is good or what is right on my own, you know, outside of the relationships and outside of the, kind of, guidance of those most impacted? And, and that's that line that I think is, is tricky to walk, but it becomes much easier the more you are in relationship, the more you're in community, the more you have real friendships. Because then I can both imagine what I think might be a good solution. I can then hear, you know, your voice in my head being like, “Eh! Well, what about,” and then we can actually have a conversation about it and, and, you know, I can sort of be put on a more helpful path.

Val: Right. And that's why our community (just for just talking about me and you here and just interracial communities overall) are really important because, there have been instances where a White person thinks they know, you know? And then doesn't stop to listen and ask, and, and really like, seek to understand that. I certainly don't need saving in the way White saviorism shows up. Right? That's not what I need. But I do need you to speak up, right? I do need it not to be just the burden is mine to point out all of these things, right? That, that's exhausting. Right? I need somebody else to see it. That's a heavy burden.

Right? And so knowing that I can walk into a room with you and we hear some racist foolishness, and we like, look at each other, like, “What just hap-!” You know? Like, I am not alone in this. And then I'm like-

Andrew: I’ve got this.

Val: Right, I want to be like, “It’s on you! Today’s on you!”

Andrew: You go get a drink, I got this.

Val: Today, today is on you, right? That, that, that feels important to have those types of relationships.

And I think also as a Black woman, especially when, uh, White folks are trying to integrate schools, you'll also need a bridge, right? You'll need a bridge because it would not be uncommon for people to look at you suspiciously. Like, “What are you doing here? What are you going to do to my school? Does this mean that I no longer have a place here?”

Right? And so, how we show up, in our own communities for our own communities and for each other, I think is really important for us to continue to figure out and navigate and stumble through.

Andrew: That's this promise of multiracial solidarity. That's what Heather McGhee talks about. The, like, solidarity dividends. That's the promise of actually being in community is, both, you're sustained through the hard parts and that the, the good parts are that much better. And, like, you get to much better places. You know, that kind of, all of the advances we've made. All the ways that as, as James and I talked about in the episode, all the ways that the moral arc of the universe has bent towards justice, has not been because it has to bend towards justice, but rather it has been the multiracial organizing that has bent it towards justice.

Val: It has been bent. That's right. I think that's, that's an addendum we need to add to Martin Luther King's quote. You think he'll mind?

Andrew: I'm going to go ahead and not, and not take on the task of adding onto MLK quotes, if that's alright with you!

Val: Well, we'll just add that context when we're analyzing with our friends and family.

Andrew: Yes. Dr. King was right! I'm not trying to say he wasn’t right!

Val: That's it, absolutely!

Andrew: Don’t get me wrong!

Val: And we don't think we can do better! We're just trying to make sense of it.

Andrew: And it has been bent.

Val: That’s it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: You know, this episode, I think, is one of our more hopeful ones. Right?

Andrew: It is. And, and if you want even more hope, definitely sign up for these trainings there. I went to the first two. They’re, they're spectacular, really well done. Great kind of practical, useful knowledge on how to go out and organize and, and be part of this movement of pushing back. Go to the heal website, healtogether.org. There's a pledge you can take, they're really in the kind of base building phase of their organizing right now. So I think through the summer, they're looking to gather as many people who are like-minded with them, and kind of figure out what the best way is to organize those people come fall, so that when we come into the elections, there's really a strong, powerful movement of folks.

So, definitely encourage folks to go to the website, sign the pledge, take their trainings. If you go to their trainings and you see me in the zoom say “hi.”

Val: That would be dope!

Andrew: I will be there.

Val: Yeah. I just want to tell listeners, folks that are aligning doesn't mean you have to be perfect showing up. So, show up, you know, know that you have people there to help you, and we'll do this work together. Right.

Andrew: I mean, I feel like that's, that's how I go into every episode we record, Val. I'm not going to show up perfect! But I'm going to show up, and I'm going to try, and we're going to do it together.

Val: That's it. Every single time.

Andrew: I appreciate you having my back on that.

Val: You got it. Thank you for having my back.

Andrew: Absolutely. Listeners, we'd like you to have our back. One of the best ways you can do that is by coming over to patreon.com/integratedschools, joining our Patrion, supporting this work with a small, monthly contribution, we would be very grateful.

Val: Thank you in advance for that and continue to listen, share, talk about these episodes. Um, let us know what you think. Write us letters! We read all of them!

Andrew: That's right! Val, we have a new email address.

Val: Okay, what is it? What is it!

Andrew: This is so exciting, Our new email address is podcast@integratedschools.org. So,

Val: Super simple!

Andrew: Super simple podcast@integrated schools.org. Shoot us an email. We read them all. We'd love to hear what you think, what topics we should cover in the future. And speaking of which, our final episode of the season will be in two weeks. And we're going to do, we're going to do another listener questions episode. So, um,

Val: I love those!

Andrew: Yes. I'm looking forward to that. So if you have questions that you'd like to ask, send them to us ASAP, and we will try to answer them in the final episode of the season, uh, before we take a little break.

Val: Wow!

Andrew: Well, Val, it is always a pleasure to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time, new friend!