S7E17 – Reflections on Season 7

S7E17 - Reflections on Season 7

Andrew: Welcome to Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Reflections on Season Seven. Val we did it! A whole season of episodes!

Val: We did it! You know what my first reflection is for the good folks?

Andrew: What’s that?

Val: I start out with a very stern face every time we go live. And then you open with your introduction and I, like burst into the biggest grin possible because I just love it. You're really good at that.

Andrew: TThank you. Thank you. I got to bring something to the table.

Val: You do.

Andrew: The radio voice. I've got extra radio voice today because I am on the tail end of COVID, which I thought somehow it was not ever going to get me. And then it did… the whole household. So we've been out for the count for a week, but we're back.

Val: I'm sorry to hear that. And I hope that listeners, you know, are managing the best they can, through this ongoing pandemic. Which, yeah, we did a whole 17 episodes in the middle of a pandemic.

Andrew: That’s right. Yeah, so we thought we'd take some time today to reflect on those episodes, what we've learned and then answer some listener questions. So, Val, we started out with, new season, new perspectives, new co-host, you joined the fray. Uh, it was a big change. It was certainly a big leap for me. Having spent so much time with Courtney as co-host and then spending a whole season alone, in this chair with, you know, various people guesting, but, welcoming you in, it was a big leap and it was awesome!

Val: Yeah. Were you ever nervous that, you know, it may not have gone well?

Andrew: Um, I mean, no. I was not worried about you, or like what you were going to say or what perspective you were going to bring to it. I was, I mean, I continue to be nervous before every episode of in what ways am I going to screw this up? Or what ways am I going to say something that later I listened back to him like, oh God, I can't believe I said that. Or, um, you know, in what ways is this going to continue to be a challenge, but I think you very quickly put me at ease. Just, I think that the certainty that you bring, but also the compassion, made it very easy to jump into this.

Val: Oh, I appreciate that. I was terrified. I almost quit three times. I'm kidding y’all! I'm kidding. Um, no, it has been quite the year and I was sharing with my husband that just these conversations have felt really important. Have like kept me sharp and thinking. I've learned so much in listening to the guests and processing with you, the opportunity to both think and feel in this space and then allow others to kind of witness how we are processing that I think has been a real gift. Um, yeah, it's a joy. I hope you have me back.

(Val laughing)

Andrew: (laughing, humorous tone) Well, you did invite yourself back. So, um, I think now is as good a time as any to announce that Val will be sticking around for season eight. We're not getting rid of her yet. Uh, I had made a vow that I wasn't going to ask you about it while you were working on your dissertation, but before you even finished, you had invited yourself back for the next season.

Val: I did.

Andrew: And, uh, we are thrilled to have you, so looking forward to more great conversations in the future.

Val: Thank you for inviting me on this journey. It's been, it's been phenomenal.

Andrew: Absolutely. So, yeah, let's, uh, you know, thinking about the season we had, you know, we introduced you, you joined the fray. We had the conversation about moving and choosing a school. Which was a great conversation and some really powerful reflections at the end of that episode.

Val: Yeah, for sure.

Andrew: We had Stefan Lallinger and Tomas Monarrez, talking about some of the powers of integration and Tomas looking at the data around census maps and how segregated our schools are and the segregation contribution index. And so we got a little nerdy there, but also I think he brought a real kind of humanity to his work, which was really powerful to me.

Val: Yeah, those first three, I think really, you know, you didn't drop me in the kiddie pool. It was like, we just jumped right into these conversations and I think it allowed me to be really authentic about how I was feeling about some of the conversations that were happening. And, I think it opened the audience up right away to who we would be in communicating with one another. Right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I think it gave them some insight about what we were trying to do. I never thought that you and I would disagree a whole lot. Like I didn't think this was going to be a contentious kind of conversation. And it's been nice to share my perspective, which you acknowledge is different from yours. And same for me. Like, oh, I didn't think of it that way. Or like helping me just kind of broaden my own perspective about how people think about some of these things.

Andrew: Yeah, that has been huge for me as well. Even just being in a conversation with some of these incredible guests we've had with you, kind of forces me to think about it from a different perspective, and you know, I think anytime I feel overly confident or feel like certain about how I'm feeling about a topic, it's usually like a red flag that something's not right. And so, it's nice to have a kind of, you know, a touch point to be like, “Oh, okay… But maybe… but what about…”, and kind of constantly bring that other perspective in. Yeah, I mean, I think that's the power of cross racial dialogue.

Val: I mean, I even convinced you to put a sign in your yard. (Laughing)

Andrew: That's right. That's right. It's there

Val: That’s funny… that's funny. Something that I think about as a theme for this particular season, is how we really expanded the conversation outside of the binary that is often talked about with Integrated Schools. Right? We usually just talk about Black and White, but I think we were really intentional about the guests that we had on so that we expanded that conversation. Um, so that many voices were included.

Andrew: That leads us perfectly to the next episode, which was Not Your Model Minority with Sarah Soonling Blackburn, which was such a great conversation. And we had Chrissy Colon Bradt with Parenting for Racial Justice, who's biracial. We had the whole indigenous education topic, which we had not touched for far too long. And then finally getting around to that, uh, with Susan Faircloth, which was such a great conversation. Our multi-racial round table. Yeah, we covered a lot of ground and we definitely tried to both… I think push the conversation outside of, kind of, White people talking to White people. And then also outside of the White, Black racial binary,

Val: Yeah. I still think White people need to talk to White people. (laughing)

Andrew: (Agreeing laughter) We have plenty. We have plenty to talk about for sure.

Val: There’s a lot of work to do.

Andrew: Yes.

Val: You know, what has also been, really kind of you is to also, consider my professional expertise in this, you know, so allowing us to talk about the framework for anti-racist education and how parents can really dig into that and, uh, shout out to the best colleague ever, Brittany Brazzel, who…

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: …joined us on that episode.

Andrew: Yeah, that was great. And I think, I'm glad that we sort of spent some time with you in, I think you were, you called it minivan mode. Um, you know, that your perspective really was, as a Black mom, but that we can't ignore, obviously the expertise that you bring to this conversation as well, which is also such a gift that you're willing to share with the audience. And, yeah, that was a great conversation. I still think about that framework regularly. Share it with people all the time. It's really powerful stuff.

Val: That's great news.

Andrew: We had Carol Anderson.

Val: Yeah we did!

Andrew: I can’t really believe that happened.

(both laughing)

Val: I mean, we needed two episodes to unpack that.

Andrew: Yep. We had to have a whole episode talking about that. We had Unpacking Racial Hierarchy in School Choices, and then we needed a whole episode to unpack that as well.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Um, and then we just had the HEAL together work. I think another one of the themes as I'm thinking about the season… you know, we talked a lot about, broader school integration work that's happening, but also a lot about what it means to parent. What it means to have these conversations with our kids. And then what it means to, you know, not just think about these things, but actually take action. So whether that's just getting a yard sign or, you know, thinking about kind of more deliberate organizing steps, like the HEAL together episode highlighted, I think, you know, we've tried to think about, okay, so what do we do now? We've learned, we've talked, we've had conversation. Now what do we do?

Val: Yeah. And I think that's an important path for folks to continue on. So we are learning, but we want to act as well because what does it mean if we're doing all this good learning and then our actions still lead to the same racially isolated place where we're not making the gains that we're really working for.

Andrew: Yeah. And I mean, it does feel a little tricky to me because like I said, the more certain I feel about something, the more of a red flag that is because I feel like there's so much nuance in this work and it's so dangerous to get too sure of yourself too quickly. And, we hear plenty of stories of people screwing up… of people going out and trying to do something and causing harm and not tending to the impact of that. So I think it's a real easy place... I certainly find it an easy place for me to get, which is, I can think more about this. The thing that I'm going to do is think more about it. I'm gonna get another book. I'm gonna read another book by another Black author. I'm going to listen to another podcast. I'm gonna read another article. I'm gonna like, think even more about this until I'm sure that I know what the one right thing to do is. And that, you know, that just leaves us paralyzed, I think, because you know, like I think our choices are between better and worse things, not right and wrong things. Right?

Val: Right, right.

Andrew: And, you have to go out and try and you have to fail and you have to attend to the harm and then move on. And it’s easy to get paralyzed.

Val: Yeah. And I appreciate you acknowledging that tendency to maybe like stand still when you're unsure about the next right thing to do. And I just want to encourage listeners, like there's so many things to do, and sometimes they're right in that moment, you know, like you mentioned, just like the next right choice that I can make. And when we try to solve racism in one episode, as we frequently did…

Andrew: Yep.

(both laughing)

Val: Um…

Andrew: We didn't frequently solve it, but we frequently tried.

Val: That’s right… We frequently tried. It can feel overwhelming to, you know, do that kind of work. And I think what I really appreciated about each of our episodes is although we talked about some pretty heavy topics, we found ways to talk about the joy and the connection that keeps us sustained in the work. And I think that's an important reminder for everyone because this is ongoing and difficult, and we understand the importance of it. So we're recording this fresh off of the Buffalo shooting.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And here we are, again dealing with racial terrorism, and not really knowing how to… I don't know, you know, for whatever reason this one is sticking differently than the others. And I think the most tragic part for me is that I don't feel any less safe than I did before the shooting happened. Like, there's always a chance that that could happen. And I think that's a tragedy, right? That's a tragedy for sure. And so that makes these conversations even more necessary. That makes our calls for truly integrated spaces even more important. And that makes us finding ways to stay connected when we could very much pull apart as central to the work that we're doing.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. The Buffalo thing. I mean, obviously it's tragic. I want to be careful, you know, it is just like the latest in a series of 400 years of racial violence, it is not, um, surprising and yet it still manages to be shocking.

Val: Mmmmm…

Andrew: I think I texted you that picture of Ms. Pearl Young. Um, I just, yeah, that just broke me when I saw that. And it's not, yeah. I mean, I don't want to fall into the trap of kind of, you know, politicizing this, for our cause. And yet I, you know, I can't help, but think about the schooling environment that that kid had. What in his life led him to this point? What conversations were never had? What things were allowed to pass? Um, and, I think, like you said, you don't feel less safe because you have adapted to a worldview that includes the possibility of this. In that way we fail people everyday. As a society, clearly we failed the 13 people in that supermarket as a society. And I, yeah, I don't know this feels, it feels tricky here because it was a monstrous act of evil. And I feel like we failed the shooter as a society. And I don't want to take away, you know, his culpability but at 18 to be at that point, like, we failed.

Val: What we have talked about very openly is how schools steeped in Whiteness are dangerous for everyone. And so, um, again, I don't know the school that the shooter went to or their community or anything else.

Andrew: Uh, I looked it up. His school had, I think, almost 500 kids. There were 11 Black kids in the school.

Val: Okay.

Andrew: Um, I don't know about the broader community, but you know, it is highly rated on the school rating website that shall not be named. It is, um, a largely White school. There's not a lot of kids living in poverty. It is what, you know, at least from the outside, just looking at it online you know, if you were to use the same techniques that people use to figure out, like, where is a good school, you would look at that school and say that is a good school.

Val: Mm. Mm. And so, you know, one of my many reactions to this is like, you, I, other folks should recognize the dangers of White supremacy and Whiteness and violence and those intersections, and we should be all getting together, like how do we save our children from this? Like, cause I need my children saved. You need your children saved. It is clearly a danger to all of us. Right? And those are conversations I think we need to continue to have. And when we talk about that school being, you know, like you said, one of the ones that we would have picked as, like a great school, what are the conversations the folks in that community and the educators in that community are now having, and can we work to save all of our kids? That's what I've always been working for.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think, you know, I think sort of thinking about one of the, one of the real gifts of you on this podcast, for me, at least… It has helped me see much more clearly. I think it's easy to start thinking about school integration as a White person and, thinking about the ways in which supporting it is like doing something for the community. You know, it was kind of this like selfless… It's like how, it's like what easily slips into White saviorism. You know, I believe that all kids need more. So my precious, like White learning unicorn kid will come to your school and bestow their, like learning fairy dust on the kid. And it's easy to slip into that. And I think I've had a pretty clear grasp on how that is not really what's going on, but I think the, like, the real deep benefit to my own kids of getting out of all White spaces of getting out of the quote unquote good schools, I just, I feel that so much more clearly now, I think at the end of this season, in that we really are like, it's collective liberation. It's like, what we are working for here is to save all of our kids.

Val: That's it. That's it. That's it. (Clap) So what do the people want to know?

Andrew: Woo… Alright. So yeah, let's get some listener questions here. Um, we've got some great ones.

Val: Okay.

Andrew: So let's start with Amy from Denver. She writes, “While it doesn't appear you have yet quite solved racism…”

Val: Dang it (laughing)

Andrew: That’s true… We still have a little bit of work to do, but we're getting there.

Val: I feel poked.

Andrew: Amy needs some hope. “Can you point to examples of highly functional multi-racial schools and/or organizations that we should all be paying attention to?”

Val: So there's this podcast where there's two people on it and it… (starts laughing)

Andrew: That's…

Val: …and we seem to be highly functioning.

Andrew: …not sure we can promote the podcast on the podcast. It's sort of self-defeating. (laughing)

Val: No? Um, I am confident that there are places out there that are doing really good work. And I think what would be an element of that particular group is that they know there's so much more work to be done. And they're in a constant state of reflection… trying… reflection… getting feedback from their stakeholders and the caregivers and the students. So when you have that culture of like, learning, and growth and really trying, I think that is going to be the best case scenario. I don't think anyone has it all figured out. Because this is a, this is a big beast here.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's yeah, it's a 400 year hole we're trying to dig out of. But I do think that there's one way in which it's like, well, we can't point to anyone like, “Oh yeah, here it is. They've solved it here.” Part of that feels sort of depressing, but I think that speaks to both the sort of depth of the hole that we're in, but also to the importance of recognizing that it is ongoing work. And that the work is not going to end. What did Carol Anderson say… “The price of Liberty is eternal vigilance.”

Val: That's right.

Andrew: So I mean, I think like my kids' school is one potential example. Um, I think our school leader is doing a really nice job. It is a very multi-racial community. And it's hard. And that just like the fact of it being multiracial community does not make it easy. Does not mean that…

Val: No.

Andrew: …challenges that come along with that, have been solved. And so I think there's real benefit in being in that space and in recognizing that it is ongoing work, but you know, the students have work to do. That the teachers have plenty of work to do, and they are all engaged in that work, but also the parents and the community has work to do. And, um, you know, I think one of the real challenges for our school right now is figuring out what does that community work look like? Particularly coming out of two years where we weren't together at all, but you know, how do we, how do we come together as a community and say like, okay, like being in multi-racial community is hard. It's important. It's valuable. It has real payoff and it's hard work. Let's like, what does it look like to put in the work to, to make that, you know, functional.

Val: Yeah. And I appreciate your thoughts. Cause it made me wonder, like, if I turn this into how well am I functioning, in my multi-racial communities, like, what am I doing? Right? Like, that'll help me kind of start thinking about it from a systems level or a school level. And so if I am saying things like, well, I haven't really reached out to people or I haven't really like, continued my learning or I haven't really done that. And so how do we continue to be on our own journey? And that will continue to impact how our schools are functioning and how our communities are functioning.

Andrew: Thank you, Amy. Um, Ali writes “Two schools in our district are merging in the fall of 2023, one about 30% students of color, the other over 70% students of color. What advice would you have for things the two school communities could do in the course of the next year or so to integrate well?”

Val: Hmm, that is a big one. It sounds…

Andrew: Yeah, Ali is not alone. You know, there are all sorts of places where we've got school consolidation…

Val: Yeah. Uh,

Andrew: and mergers and stuff.

Val: That sounds like a school my children would have gone to if they remained in Florida. Um, I can tell you what they did. They put the predominantly Black school… merged them into the like 30% Black school. And then essentially had two schools on campus. The Black students, basically, started to do all their learning in permanent portable buildings.

Andrew: (groans)

Val: Yeah. And so I can tell you that treating it as two separate schools is not the answer. And, my heart will break for the students who are losing their building and, you know, merging into another one, if it's that situation. Because they are being told like your school wasn't good enough to stay open. And so the folks who are, quote the home school have to be really intentional about including the new students and honestly, welcoming in any traditions that they had. Right? So it's not just like you're coming into my school. Like what traditions did you all have at your school that we can now do at our school? Right? So that it does feel reciprocal?

Andrew: Yeah. And feels like a new school. Like, even if it's not in a new building, I think yeah. Being extra intentional about that. Like this is now a new school.

Val: Yeah. I wonder if, do they have a new mascot, you know, or is it like, is it really, you're just coming to my school and if that's the attitude then it's going to be hard to feel included.

Andrew: Yeah, I think there's also, um, and that it’s, you know, it's tricky with COVID, but they've got a year. What kind of conversations can happen in the meantime? Can you have a group of parents at the playground after school, welcoming people with name tags, just saying like, Hey, I'm trying to start up those conversations and those dialogues to build that community, because I think that certainly makes people feel more welcome.

Val: Yeah. And having a year… that really does give a lot of opportunity. I'm thinking about everyone being impacted, right? Are teachers coming over? Like, there's a lot of merging that needs to happen. And so having a year runway gives folks a lot of opportunity. I hope they're able to take advantage of it.

Andrew: Yeah. It always seems to me that a project working on something together is a much easier way to start building relationships. Then kind of…

Val: I agree.

Andrew: …some people are great at showing up on the playground and being like, “Hey, I'm, so-and-so, let's be friends”, but that can feel a little awkward. So I’m wondering, you know, is there like… take the CARE framework. Go and meet some other parents and be like, “Hey, look at this thing. What do you think about this? What of this resonates with you? Like, should we try to encourage our new school to adopt something like the CARE framework?”

Val: Yeah. And it only takes one or two parents to make that invite, you know? So it's possible.

Andrew: Good luck. Ali. Keep us posted.

Val: Good luck! Yeah. We want to know.

Andrew: Alright this is from Douglas on Twitter, “If you're a White teacher that is socially conscious and another White teacher says something that would be defined as a microaggression to an adult or a child in a marginalized group, and you're in mixed company, what would you expect the social consequences for the White teacher to be? What should they be? How should you approach that?”

Val: Hi, Doug from Twitter. I think it's important always to take the opportunity to speak up. And I think the danger of not speaking up is really about… One, the person who was victimized in that instance, you know, continues to feel or be harmed. Two, if you aren't speaking up in that instance, you know, are you really living up to your particular values? And three, it's a real missed opportunity to build community with other folks in that room. There is no shame, there should be no shame in being anti-racist. That is not a bad thing. Right? And so if you're like, “Hey, you know, that was, that was a microaggression, you know, you might not have known it.” Right? You can take a stance that educates, right? So like, “You might not have known that happened, but I just want to make sure that you knew.”

Because as a person of color, you know, if that's a race-based microaggression… One, you get tired of them. Two, you know, it feels difficult to always have to be the one standing up for yourself when other people obviously know that this was the wrong thing to say. And I think that is, that's just really important for us to remember… there should be no shame in being anti-racist. There should be no shame in standing up for what's right. And what are the ways in which we can name the things that are happening and get better at it. And if it's someone who wants to get better, hopefully they accept that feedback as a gift and they're able to do better next time.

Andrew: Yeah. There's sort of three different interactions that I get concerned about in that scenario that Douglas is presenting, right? So you know, one of them is like between the two people. So between the person committing the microaggression and the person receiving it. And there is real value to the person receiving the microaggression for somebody else to stand up and say like, “Hey, that's not right.” So I think that's like one thing to be weighed in there.

I think there's also the interaction between the broader community who might be watching if it is in sort of a public setting to sort of say like, “Hey, that's not something we do here”, to be part of driving a culture, you know, empowering folks to stand up and say that in the future.

And then I think about the relationship between the White teacher and yourself, and I think there is an opportunity… I was thinking about, you know, calling in versus calling out and it's really hard to kind of figure out what do those things look like?

I mean, the easiest thing to do is to say nothing, right? And we know that that's not, that's not the right approach. Sometimes an easier thing to do is to wait until there's some private moment. And in those situations, I do feel like leading with self implication, like I have felt myself do the same thing, or I did this, that exact same thing once and somebody was nice enough to point it out to me and bring yourself in it. So that feels like much more, much more calling in. But I do think you, you risk in that moment, you know, leaving your other colleague of color out to dry and not standing up for them and not taking the opportunity to really push a kind of culture of, of embracing it.

And then, you know, the flip side of it is like, there's value in White people standing up and naming these things. So that it is not always on people of color. And, there's like the way in which that becomes performative in which it's like, oh, well, I'm the one who recognized the microaggression. And, I guess maybe that's the fourth relationship here is like, your relationship with the person of color. Do you have enough of a relationship where you standing up for them is going to feel to them like you taking on some of the burden or is it going to feel like you marginalizing their ability to stand up for themselves or not? Um, which also feels tricky.

Val: Um, yeah. Yeah, it does feel tricky. I think, you know, the only thing I would add for me as a teacher, if this had happened in a teacher situation… if the microaggression happens in public, we have to address the harm in public. And, I think that's really important, like you said, for that model. And then that relationship, because I might, I might not want you to rush in and save me. And so having like a real relationship with someone where I could just give you that look, and then we talk about that look… like I just gave you the look

Andrew: Right. Okay. Alright I got this then.

Val: You're up, you're up, you're up, you're up… (laughing) I would hope that, um, if you recognize the dignity and humanity of anyone and you see that they're being harmed, you take some action. Whether that's going to the person that was harmed, going to the person that, you know harmed them like, that you're taking some action and you're not just sitting there.

Andrew: Right. And so maybe that looks like in the moment calling out, maybe that looks like a check-in afterwards. Like, “Hey, that seemed like a microaggression. Did it feel that way to you?” Would it be helpful if I said something, you know? Yeah. I think there are, there are various ways, but I think, yeah, it's easy to yearn for the playbook. Like, okay, if X happens, then you should say Y. And here are the like four steps to then take after that. And it doesn't get nice and neat like that. But we always need to push ourselves towards speaking up… towards saying something… towards addressing harm because it's too easy not to.

Val: That's right. That's right.

Andrew: That feels like a good step towards solving racism.

Val: I think we just did. Thanks Doug for helping us solve racism this episode.

Andrew: Um, we've got a great question from Ms. Glenda Joseph. Um,

Val: OH!!! That's my mother-in-law.

Andrew: Oh, for real.

Val: Yes.

(Both laughing)

Andrew: That's awesome. She supports us on Patreon.

Val: Oh yay!! Thank you.

Andrew: That's so awesome.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Oh, that's lovely. Well, Ms. Glenda Joseph writes, I love the podcast. Never miss an episode. The interaction between Andrew and Val is priceless. I would like to know how they have each been influenced by their co-host, either in their worldview or parenting style or how they interface with others.

Val: Ooh, that's such a great question. Um, growing up… because I grew up in a racially isolated community, I didn't really have many opportunities to engage across racial difference just generally, right? Not until I got into undergrad. And then I was still like, you know, figuring out my own racial identity, how I wanted to show up what was important to me. Right? Cause I went from an all Black space to a majority White space. It was like culture shock, big time. And, and so it has been, in my adulthood that I've been able to cultivate real friendships across racial difference. And I think that has been one of the biggest gifts of being your co-host, is because we can have like, these really honest conversations, and I know that you'll come at it authentically. I'm able to come at it authentically. I never feel like I have to bite my tongue or like if there's something that you say that I'm like, man, that's sus, or, you know, like it hurts to hear that, like we can have those difficult conversations and still understand like, we have the same goal in mind, like you talked about earlier. Like our collective liberation. I never doubt that. Right?

And so it has allowed me, I think in many instances, to have a lot of hope and also like, give that hope to my children. Right? You know, and say, yeah, like there's, there's folks out there working and working on all our behalves and we do have allies and we do have co-conspirators and we do have people in our corner who are working, who don't necessarily look like us. And I think that is really important for us moving forward, just generally as a country and as a people, because it's really easy to believe that we are alone in this, and we're not. And I think that's one of the biggest gifts that I have working with you friend.

Andrew: Hmm. That's lovely. Thank you for that.

Val: You're welcome.

Andrew: That makes me feel good.

Val: You should.

Andrew: Um, and that, and I think even just like being aware of how that made me feel good has been one of the gifts that I have received from you. Um, being in this, you are constantly, pushing me out of my head. I think it's easy for me to intellectualize this work. It is easy for me to, look at something like Buffalo... acknowledge that it is a tragedy, acknowledge that it is unsurprising that it continues to happen because racial terror has been going on for 400 years and set aside all of the emotion of that. And I think you constantly bring us back to the heart of things. Bring us back to the emotion of things, whether that's just, telling Dr. Haley that we needed to like, pause for a hug because the experience she had growing up was hard. And so I find myself now outside of the context of our conversations, you know, in meetings in conversations with other folks, really trying to take that time to stop and think about the emotional impact of it. Stop and think about, the fact that it has a real emotional impact on not just the people sort of most impacted, you know, obviously. The community in Buffalo, the people in that store, the family members who lost somebody are deeply impacted emotionally. I think, you know, the vast majority of Black people in this country are impacted emotionally by that tragedy. But also allowing space to be impacted emotionally myself, you know, that my recognition that I am much less at risk walking into a grocery store from a White supremacist shooter. I mean, there was apparently a White person who he pointed his gun at and then, and then didn't shoot and walked away.

Val: Hmm.

Andrew: Like I can acknowledge that and I don't have to not feel bad about what happened. I don't have to not have space for my own mourning about that tragedy.

Val: Yeah, I think that's important because I think if we did these 17 episodes and I never knew how you felt about things that I would not have invited myself back. Right? Like if it was just like an intellectual exercise for you.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I would have been like, oh, I'm good. You know, but I think you've always come to each of these conversations with your heart as well. And I appreciate that.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it's much more comfortable… I think this speaks somewhat to Whiteness. It certainly speaks to me just like, as a person, it is much more comfortable to live in the intellectual realm of that, and to not think about it and to not bring emotions into it, but I really appreciate you, um, yeah, pulling on that piece of it and keeping us grounded.

Val: You got it. Well, thank you.

Andrew: Thank you listeners. Great questions. We really appreciate it. So this is going to start our summer break. But we have a lot of fun things planned for the summer, so, uh, don't go anywhere. Make sure you hit that follow button on wherever you're listening to this podcast so that you can keep hearing what we've got. We've got a couple of special bonus episodes coming, and then in July, we're going to re-run the Between We and They series that we did a couple of years back. It's five episodes. It follows one woman's journey reckoning with her own privilege and the ways that she was contributing to segregation and resource hoarding. I don't want to give away too much…

Val: Don’t give away too much…

Andrew: We'll have some new reflections on it. You can hear the trailer for it right at the end of this episode. So make sure you follow, keep up to date with us on social media. We will also be busy recording some great conversations for the fall when the new season starts up, and...

Val: Be like my mother-in-law and subscribe.

Andrew: …be like Val's, mother-in-law… come over to patreon.com/integrated schools. Throw us a few bucks every month. We've seen some great growth over there and really grateful to everybody who supports.

Val: Please definitely share this episode and all of the ones from the season and including your favorites, talk about them. Take action around them. We really appreciate you listeners, and we can't wait for you to come back next season.

Andrew: Yeah. Val, it has been a true gift to be in this with you for this whole season… 17 episodes. And I can't wait for what's to come. It is always a treat to try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time… we don't do goodbyes here.

Andrew: That's right.