S12E16:  Carrying the Torch: The Legacy of Thurgood Marshall from His Granddaughter’s Perspective

S12E16 - Carrying the Torch: The Legacy of Thurgood Marshall from His Granddaughter's Perspective

Andrew: Welcome to Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Carrying the Torch: The Legacy of Thurgood Marshall from his granddaughter's perspective. And Val, today, the 72nd anniversary of the Brown v. Board decision, we get to talk to Thurgood Marshall's granddaughter, Cecilia Marshall.

Val: That's so wild.

Andrew: I think about the number of times I've quoted Thurgood Marshall in my life, particularly his Milliken v. Bradley dissent. "Unless we learn together, there's little hope we will learn to live together," like, I don't know, at least weekly.

Val: At least twice an episode. At least twice an episode. {Andrew laughing}

Andrew: That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. So yes, to get Cecilia Marshall, his granddaughter, on the podcast was really, uh, yeah, really an honor.

Val: It, it was an honor, and I think it's also a reminder about how close this history is to us.

Andrew: Yes.

Val: You know? Most of the pictures that I think about when I think about Thurgood Marshall are in black and white. Right? And that seems so far away, but we have living relatives, right here. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, his granddaughter is in her mid-40s. She's very young, so.

Val: I'm basically Thurgood Marshall's granddaughter.

Andrew: Right. So yeah, so Cecilia Marshall just started the Thurgood Marshall Foundation, which is working to preserve his legacy. She didn't become a lawyer. She ended up going to art school, but eventually found her way into this work as a way to kind of honor his work. And as listeners will hear in the episode, she talks about feeling a little conflicted about that because Thurgood Marshall never wanted himself to be centered. He always felt like it was the plaintiffs who really were the heroes of the story.

Val: Right, and I think we believe that here as well, right? We are super excited to have all of the famous people that we have on the show, and each one of them leaves us the message that all of us are really important to the fight for justice in education and in our country, and I hope that's what people hear in this conversation as well. Like, you don't have to be a lawyer or lead a nonprofit to really make a difference.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. The Brown v. Board anniversary… It's a case that obviously carries a lot of cultural cachet. It's a case that is well-known, and it's known by its name Brown v. Board, which, you know, a lot of people know about Linda Brown.

That was the case from Topeka, Kansas. As Ms. Marshall points out, you know, there were, there were five cases that were all combined into the Brown case, and each one of those cases required a number of plaintiffs to come together. And, you know, I mean, feel like we did, on this podcast, a whole six-part series on Brown v. Board. Geez, it's seven years ago now. Um, encourage the listeners to go back. We've had a number of conversations about Brown. I've thought about the Brown decision a lot, but it wasn't actually until today, getting re- getting ready for this, that I realized there were over 200 named plaintiffs between the five cases that made up Brown v.Board.

Val: And I'm learning that right now, right? Yeah. Like, that is amazing and shows how much organizing was required in communities around the country.

Andrew: Yeah, 200 people who were willing to risk a lot to join these cases. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't without risk to be part of any one of these cases. You've got five cases.

They were in Delaware, Kansas, South Carolina, Virginia, and Washington, DC. The Kansas Topeka case is the one that most people know, Brown v. Board of Topeka, Kansas, but we also had Davis versus County School Board of Prince Edward County in Virginia, started in 1951. It was actually the result of a student walkout led by Barbara Rose Johns, who was 16 years old at the time. And you think about the power of student organizing, you know, that led to this court case that eventually made its way all the way to the Supreme Court, which is just a very powerful story.

Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: You've got Gebhart v. Belton in Delaware, and that was the case that was argued by Louis Redding, whose grandson, Stefan Lolenger, was on the podcast a while back. We'll put links to that episode in the show notes. Bolling v. Sharpe in Washington, DC, and then Briggs v. Elliott in South Carolina, which was actually the first case that was filed, started all the way back in 1947, you know, and it took like seven years for it to get all the way through to the Supreme Court.

And speaking of the sacrifices that people made to join these cases, Eliza and Henry Briggs, who filed on behalf of their son, Nathaniel, despite the eventual victory in the case, they lost so much. You know, they lost their jobs. They eventually had to move out of South Carolina. And their son, Nathaniel Briggs, never went to an integrated school.

We talk about Brown v. Board as a victory, and it certainly was. And there were so many people who sacrificed so much, not just on their own behalf, but on behalf of their community, on behalf of future generations. I think Ms. Marshall really reminds us of the, of the importance of, of remembering those people and their stories.

Val: Recognizing that everyday courage from caregivers, from students, from people who saw injustice and couldn't sit with it and decided to say they wanted to take action and literally sign their name, that is what made this difference. That's what, that's what we're also celebrating with this anniversary.

Andrew: Yeah. And it feels particularly poignant. It feels like a really important moment to be telling the story of Brown, to be telling the story of Thurgood Marshall and his legacy and the things that he valued and fought for in a time when, you know, the Supreme Court just came down with the Louisiana vs. Callais decision that gutted the Voting Rights Act, and has left us with southern states redrawing their maps to disenfranchise Black voters, and certainly the Voting Rights Act and all of the voting rights legislation that Thurgood Marshall pushed for. You know, a lot of that legacy is being undermined in this moment.

Val: Yes. It has been disappointing to watch. And as Thurgood Marshall taught us, this is a very long battle with lots of small battles. And thus, with lots of possible wins. Even if it looks like there are none, I know that, um, there are folks working right now to make sure that, uh, we have wins um, throughout this time as well.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, folks like the NAACP Legal Defense Fund that Thurgood Marshall founded in 1940. He was only 32 years old when he founded it, which is crazy to me.

Val: That's wild. What were you doing at 32? I was What were you doing at 32?

Andrew: I was not doing anything nearly as useful as Thurgood Marshall was.

Val: No, not at all.

Andrew: Uh, but you know, he recognized that there needed to be an organization really dedicated to, as, as the LDF says, defending the humanity and in advancing the rights of Black people in America, and, and they're still here today. You know, they were involved in arguing the Cali case. Uh, and their work continues to feel incredibly important.

Val: Yeah. Absolutely. Can we get to the star of the show?

Andrew: I think it is time for the star of the show. We should take a listen to Cecilia Marshall.

Val: Let's do it.

[THEME MUSIC]

Cecilia Marshall: My name is Cecilia Marshall. I am the granddaughter of Thurgood Marshall, and I recently founded a nonprofit in his name, The Thurgood Marshall Foundation, but have spent the most, the part of my career in, uh, nonprofits, supporting students through scholarship programs and mentorship programs.

Andrew: Amazing. The Thurgood Marshall Foundation, your, your mission is to preserve, protect, and promote Thurgood Marshall's legacy through preservation, storytelling, education, and programs that support the next generation of civil rights leaders. The focus on supporting the next generation of civil rights leaders, talk about that. Why is that the mission?

Cecilia Marshall: Yeah, I will say first, like, there was a, a hesitancy on me doing this. Obviously, I'm, you know, later in life doing this, uh, you know, in my mid-40s. And I think, you know, growing up, my grandfather, you know, had always said that the clients were the heroes, and he never enjoyed books written about him.

You know, I think he didn't want to be, you know, talked about. I think at one point, even when he was considering where he would put his papers, he was gonna burn them. You know, I was 11 when he passed, and my grandmother would always say, you know, the true heroes were the clients. And so I was hesitant, but in the past, you know, 10 years, you know, it really does feel like the story needs to be told, and I think there is power in his story.

And I think he understood that every brief that he filed, every argument he made, every powerful dissent in the end of his life was really a part of history, and I think the American history that needs to be told to our students, and I think it needs to be told because it needs to be told so that they know they have the power to shape the same system that he had.

And so I think, you know, my feeling was if we lose him, we lose his clients who he truly had a passion for and, you know, he saw those as the stories that we should be telling. And there's also power in the storyteller. You know, I think if we don't take the responsibility of telling his story, you know, it falls to anyone who wants to sort of tell the story in their way.

And so I think it's a way of sort of reclaiming the power of the story of his and sharing it. But ultimately, you know, when history's being rewritten and we are in a year of celebrating the founders, uh, I think we are, you know, often forgetting the true reframers of the, of the Constitution and the founders and that work, and I think those sacrifices are important for students to learn about and the sacrifices of the clients.

Val: Thank you so, so much for that. As a mom of two teens who I am regularly exposing to this history, it's obviously very important for me that we continue to tell this story. Are there one or two stories that you feel like we should know? Honestly when you were talking about him, I love my granddaddy with my whole heart. He passed several years ago, um-

Cecilia Marshall: I'm so sorry.

Val: ...and no, no, and it's, it's, it... He has been a part of my story. And so I truly wanna know who he was like as a grandfather to you.

Cecilia Marshall: You know, I think for me, he was just Grandpa. You know, I did not understand his legacy until I stood at his casket when he lay in the Supreme Court in that hall. It was a January, yeah, and it was freezing outside. And up until that moment, we'd spent a lot of time at home. I understand now why he spent a lot of time at home, you know, but yeah, so my weekends were spent with my grandparents at home. You know, my parents would have me stay over for the weekend. I would spend time with them.

So I never saw him in relation, you know, to other people, other than I would go to the Supreme Court and visit him in his chambers. You know, he had chambers there. But that to me as a child just made sense. That's where my grandpa worked. You know, everyone knew me when I walked in. You know, I think a, a child's mind doesn't know that that's not a normal workplace for everyone, that that's a very special hall. You know, so for me it was just like going to grandpa's work or going to the palace. But I think one time I saw him in a very large crowd when he gave the Liberty Medal speech, uh, which I look to all the time in thinking about his legacy and what he would think of where we are today. But that speech obviously felt a little different.

There were a lot of people. There were crowds. But I, I truly didn't realize until I stood there and I saw you know, elderly with younger children coming in the cold. I could see on these little TVs the line before I went over to stand there, and then I would see people, younger, older, you know, multi-generations waiting to pay their respects, and that's when I realized something is different here.

Um, and that's when I started to kind of put everything together. And obviously I learned a lot from, which I later realized are incredible luminaries that were in our lives, about his legacy, and that I'm so grateful for, for teaching me about it. But for me, he was just Grandpa. And even, the Liberty Medal speech day, it was so crowded. There was commotion. You know, we were trying to get in the elevator. You know, and a lot of reporters were trying to get in with him. It was 1992, 4th of July. You know, and I just was like, "Oh, wait." You know, and he was... He looked at a reporter and said, "You, get out." Like, "Your granddaughter's getting in." You know, and I was like, "Oh, I'm the..."

Val: That's right. That's right… {Val laughing}

Cecilia Marshall: You know, like I, I was like- "Yes, I am the granddaughter." You know, it was, I could, you know, I could definitely do no wrong, I would imagine. But I mean, I'm sure that was probably the reporter's worst day, uh, of like... And I feel very sorry that, you know, they were kicked out of the elevator for me, but I also felt like, you know, he saw my little stature standing there just being like, "Oh, wait, don't worry." And it was just sort of like, no, you know, the family's important. Get in, get in the elevator with me and come with me. Yeah. So I think that's, you know, one of my strong memories, but a lot of it is really him in his chair.

You know, he sat in this chair in the living room. Um, and it's the home I live in today. You know, I moved in with my grandmother during COVID. Uh, you know, so I'm grateful to be in, in his home, but that's how I remember him is in this chair, you know, hugs, you know, presents, birthdays. You know, all of those things were in this home.

And so, you know, for me, it's just a grandpa. And I think obviously now I wish like, "Oh, I should've asked all these questions." I was like, but I was 10, so I don't know that those questions would've made a whole lot of sense. Uh, and people say "Oh, well, did you hear them talking about, you know, the court or cases?"

And I'm like, "Honestly, I have no recollection of that." I do know we always were heated, though. Like, we are a arguing household. Like, we could argue about a Monopoly game. So I'm like, that, you know, after I've started to read the books of how much him and his brother used to argue in the house as like a way of, you know, debate, um, the debate mentality completely exists on all fronts, um, what we're gonna eat for dinner, you know, where we're gonna go. But, you know, otherwise for me, he was just Grandpa, you know growing up.

Val: That's beautiful, and I think that that's the story that I, I wanted to hear, so, so I appreciate that.

Andrew: You know, you, you mentioned that to your, to your grandfather, the true heroes were the clients. He seemed to have a, you know, a deep reverence and fondness for the families who, you know, were willing to sign on to cases and join us as plaintiffs.

And we know a lot about Linda Brown, and obviously the Brown family made a huge sacrifice. And as you mentioned, the, the other families who were part of the case sometimes get forgotten, or their stories don't often get told as much. I wonder if you can just sort of tell us a little bit about kind of each of the other families, um, who are part of the Brown case.

Cecilia Marshall: Yeah, absolutely. I think, um, you know, I will cite a publication that I often go to, and it's called Recovering Untold Stories: An Enduring Legacy of Brown v. Board of Education Decision. It's within the University of Kansas Library. And so I look to that because it's actually all of the clients talking about their stories.

So it literally goes, you know, and touches on the Kansas case, the Delaware case, the DC case, Prince Edward County, Virginia, and Clarendon County. And it's just a wide-ranging set of differences in each case as well, you know. And I think, and maybe I gravitate to South Carolina because that's the way they handle, you know, the cases.

When they argued in front of the Supreme Court, whoever was the trial lawyer argued that case, and so that was my grandfather's case with South Carolina, so obviously much more familiar with those stories. And so when you think about Barbara Johns and leading a student strike, I'm like, that's a completely different story than the picture that kids learn about Linda Brown and the Brown, you know, students, you know?

So I think it's like when you think about, you know, students leading that ed- for, effort in Virginia, in my home state. Yeah. It's just so striking how, how they started and how they became. Even South Carolina was not about where it ended up. It was about just getting a bus for children, small children my son's age, walking miles to school. And so I do think people need to be reminded that that's what our children did, is that our children were walking miles

Andrew: And those, some of those kids are still alive. Like, not in the distant past. Right. Not in the 1800s. Like, some of those kids are alive, who did that walking are still alive today, right? This is recent history. Yeah.

Cecilia Marshall: Um, you know, and I think certainly the pressure put on... I mean, I, my child's six and Linda Brown was seven. You know, I think the pressure on a seven-year-old. That's why, that's why all of us get angry when we hear you don't wanna tell my six-year-old child about these injustices, absolutely.

I, if you could, if that child could handle the violence on their body, our children can learn about it at that same exact age. It's not too young to learn about what happened. When I think about their sacrifice, and we think about how people are fighting just telling the story, um, but I think it goes back to the roots of the founders did not want children of color educated. They did not want education. And why? Because it's, it tells the power of the people. Even when you see the little bodies. You know, I met Ruby Bridges when my, my father was actually the director of the United States Marshals Service at one point in his career. And Ruby Bridges, I met her, and I look at, you know, the visuals of her body, small. I think of their parents. You know, I think the children, you know, were brave, but imagine, I can't imagine as a mother.

You know, I think, you know, we think about the child obviously because they're, they're small and that sacrifice was theirs. But just that, imagining that mother's feeling of their child and not being able to protect them, but understanding that this sacrifice was for the community, and they made that sacrifice for the community and for their children.

And so I think, you know, I struggle when I hear that we don't wanna teach our children about these children being spit on, being harassed, Autherine Lucy being attacked on the way out of the University of Alabama by a White mob.

Val: We're doing some work in, in elementary schools, and last week I got the best hug from an almost six-year-old. And she pulled me in, and she put her head right here and did that little nestling thing.

But just that reminder of how small their bodies were. Like, it is jarring, um, to say the least. And the fact that they also didn't have Black educators in the building to help them navigate that time as well, right? So I think part of that hug that I received was because of the relationship that she develops with me, right? And so not having an adult in the school that could help her or help them in this transition, um, probably added more to just I know added more to what they were experiencing.

Cecilia Marshall: Absolutely. And there's a lot of wonderful movements trying to ensure that we have teachers of color in our schools, but it's certainly not where we need it to be in terms of teachers of color in our spaces.

And I think there's, you know, a lot of reasons for that. But also, you know, our HBCUs are pulling the heavy lifting of educating our students and really, you know, I spent about five years working at a nonprofit supporting HBCUs, uh, you know, and really uplifting the institutions themselves, but that is because they're ensuring that families are moved economically.

You know? And I think it's, you know, the greatest economic mobility is serviced right now by our historically Black colleges and universities, and uplifting that they need to have their full funding, you know, and to be supported. They don't need to be threatened to have funding removed at this point in time.

They are, you know, they're doing the work. But I certainly think we have a long distance to travel to diversity in our teachers, and I think it's still, you know, it mattered to those students then and it still matters now in terms of success. You know, and it makes me think of my grandfather sort of in the middle of the Civil Rights movement, taking the position as a judge on the Second Circuit.

You know, I remember on your podcast, Logan, you know, cited the, the White robes to the Black robes, and I think he understood the importance of his body being on that bench, of him sitting in that space. You know, when I look at the court, I think it still matters, you know, that you have someone that looks like you up there in that position of power and authority. It needs to happen in our teaching as well, but also it needs to happen in, you know, all of our, all of our worlds to bring more diverse teachers and to understand each other.

Val: When you were talking about your 10-year-old self standing outside of the elevator and just the fact that the clients were the heroes, I think about how many children were those clients as well. Um, can you talk a little bit about his passion for making sure that young people were front and center, and maybe that's how that's influenced your work as well?

Cecilia Marshall: No, I think it's the children being these warriors at the time, you know. You know, there was a recent documentary about my grandfather done by an amazing director, Alexis Aggrey, uh, called Becoming Thurgood.

And the first screening that I went to, I made sure it was at, you know, South Carolina State University, one of my, you know, I, I'm a huge fan of the campus, the students, uh, and so we, we showed it there. I had no idea that Nathaniel Briggs was in the audience. And then I met him, and so I was able to hear the story of his parents, Harry and Eliza Briggs, and the sacrifice.

You know, I had read about the horrible things that happened to them after signing this petition. And that they never attended integrated schools. You know, they didn't get to reap the benefits of what everyone likes to claim as the Brown victory, which I don't want to say it wasn't a victory. It was a huge victory, but I think we often celebrate it and forget the families that made the sacrifices and didn't get to get the benefits. But I also think it's important because they did it for our children. They did it for the future. You know, they had hoped for their children, like we all hope. I have a six-year-old, you know, and I think it's, you hope for the best, but you also know that there are sacrifices that you will all make for the next generation.

And at one point, there was a book written about my grandfather by Carl Rowan, and he interviewed, Ms. Briggs, and I did ask Nathaniel if I could, you know, repeat this story, you know. And, and she was asked, you know, "You lost everything. You lost your job. Your family was separated. You had to move out of the state. Your children didn't go to integrated schools. If Thurgood Marshall came in your living room again today, would you sign?" She said, "I would do it again." You know, and I think that's just the power of her sacrifice. And I bring up that story because we always say Brown, and I think it's always important to honor the five cases and to sort of honor the individual sacrifices of all of these families. And these children, you can see a picture of them. They went to the courthouse. So just power in seeing Thurgood Marshall argue, to see a Black man argue with the White man in a place of power, and I think that was also a victory, to be able to sit there and let him tell them what was right and what was wrong.

And so I think the whole story of it, you know, is important to remember. There's been some powerful pieces by the children that were participants. Even when we talked about the Briggs case in front of the South Carolina State students, I don't know that they knew that right there, you know, in the audience that, 'cause we imagine these things so long ago. But they were children then, so now they are adults that can tell their stories from their perspective. Um, and so I think I always think of the Briggs family and their sacrifice in Clarendon County, South Carolina.

Val: Yeah. You know, we have a similar story here in Charlotte with Dorothy Counts Scoggins as well, right? And I had the opportunity to listen to her last year, again, at a, at a school where you could tell the young people just don't even realize how close all of this is to them. And I can't, you know, obviously separate these ideas from what is happening right now.

Andrew: You cite this, this quote of your grandfather as sort of your inspiration for the foundation, that, "We must dissent because America can do better, because America has no choice but to do better."

And, and like, you've got, you know, big, big family shoes to fill, but you did not go to law school. You- you're an artist. It feels like maybe you kind of like rejected the family business a little bit, and then it came calling you back, you know? And here you find yourself, like, back in it. But yeah, like, why, why does this story need to be told now?

Cecilia Marshall: Well, I think it's a... and it's a devastating moment every time we feel like our hearts are broken by a decision like Louisiana versus Callais. I mean, I sit on the board of the Legal Defense Fund, which he founded in 1940. We always say the, the phrase now that we were built for this. But it's important. You know, even when he was asked what his most important civil rights cases are, he always cites voting rights, but he also would say the criminal cases because I could save someone's life.

But he always said... They would say, "Well, what's the most important?" And he's like, "The next one." You know, it's always, "What's the next one?" So I think it's important to sort of like couch that we're seeing these, but I think these influence the strategy of these, you know, great lawyers that are out there. At the time, there were very few Black lawyers in America.

Uh, but now we, you know, thankfully with his legacy and with all the, those that stood by him and, you know, and were also leaders at the Legal Defense Fund, we have this cadre of lawyers out there on the front lines fighting it every day. But we also need to continue to inspire students to be the next Thurgood Marshall, to be the next Constance Baker Motley, you know, and even when you think about Brown, he would always say, "It was our team." You know, Robert Carter, Constance Baker Motley, Jack Greenberg, Spottswood Robinson, Oliver Hill, Louis Redding, Charles and John Scott, and Harold Boulware, Nabrit, James Nabrit, and George E.C. Hayes. These were giants.

But I think as we, as we see defeat left and right, uh, with our system and our democracy, I look to his words and I'm like, he's giving us the instruction. He's telling us what to do. You know, he's telling us to build the bridges. He's saying if our children don't learn together, we'll never learn to work together.

As much as we're so polarized right now, he was not one of extremist views. He was one of, we have to work together because we can't keep going opposite directions. So I think that's really the power of, like, his building bridges moment was saying. You know, and it's not just the work of the lawyers. He would always say, "The lawyers do this, but the rest of the building bridges is up to the rest of us. It's not just the law." So I think that's sort of my, where I'm coming to things now with the, you know, the news that we're being hit with, uh, in our current state.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, there's something hopeful, and you certainly look at, like, the time period in which he became a lawyer, very few Black lawyers, the, you know, the world that he was fighting. It seems like there had to be a certain amount of hope that he was able to tap into, a belief in the power of the country to do better, of the power of the country to be better and, and the role that, you know, the law could play in that. But I think it's interesting what you just said, you know, that, that even he focused on that was just one piece of the pie, that we needed all these other things.

How do you think about that now, sort of the role of the law in driving positive change, and then the role of kind of community, the role of grassroots efforts.

Cecilia Marshall: I think we need all of the things, you know, the great Sherrilyn Ifill, former director counsel of the Legal Defense Fund, now founder of the 14th Amendment Center, Howard Law. You know, she is doing it in an interdisciplinary way. Uh, you know, and so I always look to her for inspiration of how we do it, and I think it's all facets.

You still have to continue the fight. You know, the Legal Defense Fund is on the front line, but I think she brings up artists. You know, I was lucky to attend one of her symposiums a few weeks ago, and there was a panel of artists, including the CEO of the National Black Theatre. Sade spoke of the power of storytelling.

You know, Professor Ifill is leading and bringing together the different disciplines with this center and really helping us to strategize and be hopeful for how we work together. But you need all the things. But I think, as we know, we've, you know, we've seen much worse, and we were built for this fight.

But I do think it's also about teaching our children. Like we talked, I have a six-year-old, so, you know, still teaching them the cases. I think, you know, a 10-year-old, a six-year-old, they don't necessarily, you know, wanna hear about my theory of change or my vision for the foundation, but they understand fairness.

I see it in my child. They understand what's fair. You know, I explain Loving vs Virginia. You know, as a multiracial woman in a, you know, multiracial family, you know, you know, I explained Loving v. Virginia to him. You know, I got the preteen book from the library even though he's six, but I was like, "Let's see."

And I explained it the best way I could as not a lawyer, but the way I see it. And I said, "Okay. Can you explain to me Loving v. Virginia?" And it was just, that wasn't fair. You know? And I think that's, like, just the concept of, of fairness and all of these cases, it was about fairness. These things were not fair, and these people sacrificed to make sure that we could make a, you know, a better democracy and really a true democracy, and he was always, you know, pushing that, of a true democracy where we're all born with exactly the same privileges. We're not, but that's something he always wanted us to push for.

Val: Yeah, you, you brought up your six-year-old. What are your hopes for your six-year-old, and what does sacrifice look like for you? You talked about the ways in which the family sacrificed for their children, not knowing that they would be able to even attend integrated schools or having lost it all and having to move. What do you think sacrifice looks like for you and your six-year-old?

Cecilia Marshall: You know, I think when I look at my six-year-old, I'm hopeful that we won't have to sacrifice. You know, he's in public schools, and I hope we stay that way, and we can have a wonderful education. But I do worry. You know, we're in Fairfax County Public Schools, which are at the heart of controversy and used in examples, you know, in polarizing ways, and you just worry that the system might be used as a weapon.

And so I, I do worry about the school system itself, and I worry for the teachers and the staff and everything on their plates and trying to do their best. Um, and I worry just about funding. You know, I think we don't fund our schools. I'm in one of the wealthiest school districts, but we are still not properly funded.

You know, there's still not enough being paid to the teachers that teach our children. You know, my great-grandmother was a teacher in Baltimore in a segregated school, and I just think, you know, of like that sacrifice that, you know, of her being a teacher, being paid less than, you know, support staff at White schools, you know.

You know, I will always be hopeful that my child doesn't have to sacrifice, but I do worry about, you know, racism in schools. You know, I think we get emails even in the level we're at, you know, K through five of, you know, racial slurs in school. You know, I keep getting the emails, and I just think, I was one of a few multiracial children in the same school system as a child, and I just think, "Gosh, was it this early?"

You know, I know, you know, we had our challenges, but I just feel like the polarizing, you know, is hitting at a younger age than when I was a child. It's definitely, I'm not nostalgic about when I went to school. It wasn't perfect, but I just... I do worry that how is it that at this young of an age, you know, this is still happening, and it- it's too much of a reminder.

So I think the sacrifice will be, you know, can he remain happy in his public school system and supported and educated? And I think, you know, what we do see in this county is parents taking their students out at a certain age. You know, sort of like, "Okay, well, you know, we tried K through five. Now they're going private."

You know, or they're going to another option, you know, and I think it's certainly, you know, something I think about, and we all put our children first in making decisions, but what does that mean for our school systems? It's about community, and I think that's sometimes where I feel like we're losing in the sense of when we have these situations happen, why are we, the parents, not being brought together, you know, uh, to explain what happened?

It's, you know, you get the message that says this happened, but not any details to understand, like, which other parents can we talk to? Like, how can we work together as a community? And I will You know, say I wish we could be talking about it as parents, 'cause I think it's, it's, you know, the email often says, "Talk to your children about these things," and I'm like, "I think we need to talk to each other," you know? And I think, you know, we know each other, and I, I just, I think we need to find a way to foster more collaborations.

Val: You're right, your, your children spend so much time with these other families and young people, um, and naturally you, you wanna be able to create a space where you can talk about these things that are happening in schools. I'm sensitive, I'm fragile these days, and so when you mentioned just does it start that young, I hate that it starts that young

Cecilia Marshall: And I think it's, you know, the tragedy is it starts for the mothers, you know? I think maternal healthcare for Black women is a horrific statistic in our country, so, you- and that's what my grandfather's speaking of, these children born immediately into inequity.

And so I think I'm blessed to be in a school district where the principal is saying, "We want everyone to be included, and we wanna be a welcoming, safe space." And I think they are doing their level best at making a community, but I think still acknowledging that this is still starting, you know, from in the womb, the, the tragedy of our system not respecting Black women as mothers. You know, so while I sit here complaining about the luxury of a small problem, you know, when really it's tragic that, that it's happening in that fashion and that it's happening from the womb.

Andrew: This sort of theme of, you know, teaching the next generation, of creating the next generation of civil rights leaders, the, the focus that your grandfather had on education, you have decided that with the Thurgood Marshall Foundation, you're gonna create a traveling museum, which I'm so excited about. I can't wait for it to be somewhere where I can go see it. But tell us a little bit about the plan for the museum and why, you know, why that's sort of the first big project of, of the organization.

Cecilia Marshall: Absolutely. I think, you know, I have to give inspiration to the Jackie Robinson Foundation and the incredible Rachel Robinson honoring her husband with the Jackie Robinson Museum.

You know, when I saw that I just thought how incredible, you know, of a way to honor the legacy. You know, when I started this foundation, understanding the feat of that museum, and under- I said, "You know, I don't know that, you know, that I can do a full museum of that scale." You know, it took, takes decades to do that, and it's beautiful.

But I did come across a traveling museum. I came across the Virginia 250, and I went to it, and I thought, "Hmm, we could have a traveling Thurgood Marshall Museum."

Andrew: This might be achievable, yeah.

Cecilia Marshall: This might be doable. And I thought, "Okay, I can do this." This is a 53-foot, 1,000 square foot traveling museum, and it's really sort of grounded in a couple different statistics.

You know, so one is that 70% of adults can't pass a basic civics test. I think the US Chamber of Commerce put that out. And another is that 88% of eighth graders are below proficiency for the civics NAEP results. And then another one was that two in three students report gaps in learning about the African American experience.

And so I think, you know, I think about the communities that have beared the greatest cost of the injustices of our past, not having exposure to the, the cultural museums. For example, the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture. Amazing. But how many students can get there, you know?

And could we get them all there? That would be lovely, but we can't. And so how can we bring sort of civics and education to that community? So my thought is, is that it will travel 42 weeks out of the year. It'll be in 42 different cities, so it'll be something where it will park at a college campus, either a community college or an HBCU or other, you know, main location, and Wednesday through Friday it will be field trips for K through 12 schools and then college students in the afternoon, and then Saturday is a community day.

And it's really telling the story of his life, but really his work is the cases, and his work is these sort of written opinions, these, this history, you know? And that's something that I'm hoping will be able to reach, you know, thousands of students in the first year. So it'll be, at this point, we're doing it for three years, and we'll see from there. Because every week it'll be new to the community it's in, and I'm certainly super excited, uh, you know, to have it, you know, traverse the South and, and, and go to some of these, you know, historic cities, but also to tell the story of, you know, of each of those cities while it's on tour. So that's the plan.

We are hoping to have it out Fall 2027, coinciding with him joining the court in 1967, so that will be a big anniversary. And so we're hoping to have it hit the road Fall 2027 and we will see how everyone receives it, but I'm just hoping that it can inspire the next. You know, and even if someone doesn't go on to be a lawyer, you know, I'm hoping that it at least inspires that sort of active piece of our democracy and that, you know, each of us has a responsibility in a democracy and understanding that there's power in the knowledge.

And so that, that is my hope, is that it at least exposes students to understanding this is an avenue and this is, you know, something that I could do. And I think also telling his story of him as a lawyer, I think often, even when I was in school, you learn probably one thing about Thurgood Marshall. He was the first African American Supreme Court justice.

That's what you learn. Um, if you're lucky, the teacher mentioned the lawyers in Brown. You know, not all of them, but mentions the lawyers in Brown. But really, he's seen as this, this sort of last role in his long-standing career, but I think of those, they say, 50,000 miles a year traveled in these years of doing these cases.

And I think that's an... I think about the criminal cases and just the difference in sort of the scale of that. And I think about students seeing that, hey, you know, I could be a public defender. I can help my community with the law. And I think making it a little bit more attainable, because when you, you know, look at being a Supreme Court justice, I think it's equated to sort of students wanting to be the president.

When you have such a limited number of spaces for that role in society, I think it can limit the possibility of a student saying, "Hey, I can help my community in this way." And I think even when he wrote, you know, different dissents, I think he, he's still speaking to what's happening today. And so I think that's why it's powerful to have those words out there for people to say, "Okay, you know, we've been here before, and here's a roadmap."

Andrew: Yeah, no, like obviously the, you know, in- inspiring more kids to, to pursue law as a vehicle for, you know, changing their communities is great. But I think also just the deeper message for, for him, the importance of the plaintiffs, of the families, of the communities, that like everybody has a role.

Like we were saying earlier, like, like we, we need it all, right? Like we need lawyers who are creative, who are thinking about how to dismantle systems of oppression, but we also need all the rest of us out here too doing that work every day in whatever form it takes. And so I can only imagine the inspiration that would come from, you know, getting to, to walk through this museum and seeing his artifacts and the impact that he's had, and the, the stories of all the families and all that stuff is, is, you know, the, the ways that that could then inspire people to become lawyers.

But also just to think more deeply about like what is our, what is our responsibility to each other? What is our role in society and in our communities? Yeah, I can't wait to see it.

Val: If you do not already have an invitation, I'm extending the invitation to Charlotte. We have a wonderful city that will welcome you.

Cecilia Marshall: Absolutely. I'm very excited, and I think I'm just... I'm hoping that it can be something that truly can build these bridges. You know, I think of really understanding how we can talk to each other, you know? If that's the least we can do is just to be able to open the dialogue so that we are not running from each other.

Val: Right.

Andrew: You- you've got a six-year-old. When you think about kind of your, your grandfather's legacy, the place that now you find yourself, your kind of, you know, h- how, how do you think about your kid in kind of the big arc of, of history here, and what, what do you think that your grandfather would've thought about sort of the position that your kid finds themselves in? And then, you know, what's your sort of hope for your, your kids, grandchildren, or, or great-grandchildren?

Cecilia Marshall: You know, I think there's always the hope for a true democracy. You know, that's, that's the hope. That's the vision. And I think I will be just grateful if my son chooses a path that supports improving our democracy, you know, and I think, and my grandfather said, you know, one of, you know, one of my favorite...

And I g- everything from that 1992 speech, I am always reading it. The one quote that sort of anchors me the most, though, I think, is, "The legal system can force open doors and sometimes even knock down walls, but it cannot build bridges. That job belongs to you and me. Our fates are bound together. We can run from each other, but we cannot escape each other. We will only attain freedom if we learn to appreciate what is different and muster the courage to discover what is fundamentally the same. America's diversity offers so much richness and opportunity."

So for me, I think about that, and I'm like, we all need to hear that today. Like diversity is rich, and it is... And I'm grateful. You know, again, we, you know, I, I'm not sacrificing this 'cause our student is in a, my son is in a multiracial school system. He is in a diverse environment. He is learning to accept all of our differences. So it, you know, I have been blessed with that.

Um, but every student needs to be able, you know, to also just have the best education possible, and it should not be determined by their zip code. And so I think, you know, for me, you know, when I think about his legacy and I think about where we are today, I just hope that we can really lean in on that and, and try to, you know, diversity is not a bad word. Diversity is beautiful, you know, and it is rich. And so I think just understanding that our differences, you know, there's so much we can learn from each other. And, and I think it's, you know, really just trying to ignore the noise of people fighting against words that are beautiful. I'm like, it's, it's like diversity, equity, inclusion, any, you can any day of the week argue why those are important, and I cannot think of one reason why they're not.

They're concepts of community, you know. I think they're concepts of making a space for everyone. Uh, and I think anyone that's against that I think is against a democracy and is against us living in community. And so I think it's important to not let go of a diverse America, and I think that we all belong. We all have a place.

And I will say again, you know, like Fairfax County Public Schools is fighting to make sure we're diverse and taking on the Department of Education, you know, and I'm proud that they are.

And I think it's, you know, higher education, those in positions of power, those with the, the greatest endowments also, you know, stepping up and defending, you know, our HBCUs and defending those that may not have the endowment wealth- you know, to fight and, you know, and really speak to the, to the power systems and structures and ensure that we can maintain our diverse environment and our safe environments for our students.

Andrew: Your grandfather's work has been so inspirational to me. I think that probably like not a week goes by that I'm not quoting, "If we don't learn to live together, we won't learn to live together.”

Val: Literally.

Cecilia Marshall: Milliken v. Bradley dissent.

Andrew: It's, uh, like every day it's just so inspirational and I think about the kind of ripples of the work, and obviously he had some sense of, of that. But, um, you know, to think about, you know, his great-grandkid now going to public schools, uh, yeah really grateful for it.

Cecilia Marshall: Uh, hopefully he'd be, hopefully he'd be proud. Uh, but I think to your point, the quotes we cite are often dissents, so I think it's important to remember that because it wasn't... While we find hope in them, we have to sort of remember that that's what he was using as his words against a decision that was basically aiming to perpetuate uh, the things that he'd been fighting against. So, you know, I always think of that when I... Like, like which... That quote is from… There's another dissent.

Val: No, that's a great reminder. Yeah that's a great reminder.

Cecilia Marshall: And he was often so frustrated in all of those last speeches, rightfully so, you know? But I think that's... But what's... I think it is powerful to use those for hope because that's, that's what he was giving us even though he was fighting against it with a dissent. Yeah.

Andrew: Thank you so much, this is beautiful. Can’t wait to see the museum!

Cecilia Marshall: Thank you all!

[THEME MUSIC]

Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Val: I think I want us to start this conversation at the end and her hope for her six-year-old in choosing a path that furthers democracy.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: It's interesting, and I, I'm curious about- How often parents and caregivers have that as part of the conversation with their young people, right? And from just that brief conversation with Ms. Marshall, recognizing that those are the types of conversations that were embedded in her everyday life, right?

Those are the examples that she saw as part of what was normal for her grandfather's work. For her grandmother's work. For her family's work, right?

She's already talking to her six-year-old about court cases, right?

Andrew: Right.

Val: It will feel very normal for her six-year-old to see that as an option, right? Even if, even if they don't pick it right away. Because it wasn't her pick right away to be a part of this.

And so, one, I love that you can't really escape your legacy, it's gonna, it's gonna hunt you down.

Andrew: It'll get you sooner or later.

Val: It will get you.

Andrew: Yep, we're both in that position, yeah.

Val: Yes, we sure are. But also that it has been an intentional part of her family's conversation, right? That your role is to choose a path that furthers this with your gifts and talents. And I know that you and I have conversations with our young people about our hope for the world, our hope for our communities, and, and they see and are a part of the actions that we take in those efforts. Like, we invite them into that work, and we have invited them into that work, even as young people.

And they're able to show up, whether it's in their schools or in their friend groups, in ways that illustrate that those messages are sticking, right?

But I do wonder how many caregivers are, like, being intentional about those conversations with their young people. Not just to say, like, "Do good," Or, "Get a good job," but to be, to be really explicit and say, "Here's what our country- It's trying to be about. And the only way it will come about is if people like us step up and play a role in that.”

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, and I think, y- you know, and, and Ms. Marshall mentioned this, right? Like, that might look like become a civil rights lawyer.

But that also might look like- take that ethos into whatever it is you do. You know, she started out as an artist. Like, her, her work led her to this in various different ways, but, like, we can inject that sort of spirit of democracy into anything we do, any job, any community we join, any, you know...and I think particularly about schools, thinking about school communities. Like, these little microcosms of democracy are the perfect opportunity to show our kids that - yeah, it's like, it's y- it's your job to go and learn. It's your job to get good grades, and it's your job to be a member of this community that helps further democracy, that helps further the functioning of this community because we all benefit if we all benefit, because we all thrive when we all thrive.

And I think that, that ethos, there's so much individualism and there's so much kind of consumer, like, what am I getting out of this, what is, what's in it for me, that's kind of baked into the way we think about parenting. And it certainly feels like Ms. Marshall's take on her grandfather's legacy was a good reminder that we, we all have broader responsibilities than just to ourselves, just to our nuclear families, just to our kids, but, but to our whole communities.

Val: Yeah. And, you know, we're talking about young people, and I'm, I'm, I'm thinking again. So I had a chance to be in an elementary school again today.

With the, with the little kindergartners. And I will tell you, the hottest topic was they were able to tell us their mom's first names, okay? My mom's first name is [laughter]

The one thing that stood out to me in the conversation with Ms. Marshall was the idea of children as warriors. And that is both inspiring and heartbreaking at the same time. 'Cause again, I'm with six-year-olds today.

And the fact that anyone who has not signed up to serve our country has to be seen as a warrior in going to school, as a six-year-old… um, was a lot to ask f- of our young people.

I can't shake that idea. Every time I, every time I'm, I'm in an elementary school and I, I see that, knowing that it was kids this small-

Andrew: Yeah, and you know, I mean, I, I, I think about your question to her about, like, what does sacrifice look like, I think about what does sacrifice look like to me.I think, like, I, I, I struggle with that because you know, yeah, my kids, my kids go to schools where maybe they don't have the same resources that they might have somewhere else, or they're not getting quite as many field trips.

But, like, in the s- grand scheme of sacrifices, you know they, they are safe, they are welcome, they feel like they belong. Like, nobody's throwing Coke bottles at them. They don't need Federal marshals to escort them.

Val: No one's spitting on them

Andrew: No one's spitting on them. You know, there is a, a degree of comfort that I think we have all come to expect and, and, you know, there's, there's good things about that, right? Like, I'm glad that people aren't getting spit on.

And I do think that, like, the, the threats to our democracy, the threats to public education are real. They don't show up in, in culture in as explicit ways, but, like, there's still a, there's still a real threat and, and I think that to get through it is going to take sacrifice, and I'm not exactly sure what that looks like.

I don't even know what it looks like for me, so I certainly don't know what it looks like to ask that of other people.

But I, I do I do struggle with that idea of, like, the, the amount of sacrifice that those families, those 200 named plaintiffs in all of the cases that made up Brown v.Board all sacrificed something, and a lot of them s- really significant things. And, and I don't know what that looks like today. But, but I do think it, it's gonna take a, a degree of sacrifice from a lot of people to, to get through this period.

Val: Yeah. I don't know, friend. I would like to believe that I would've signed up.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I would've said "Yes, you can have my kindergartner."

Andrew: Man, yeah. That's hard.

Val: That is hard.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: That is hard.

Andrew: yeah. Like, it... I, I think that's, I think... I would imagine that Thurgood Marshall's, knowing those families intimately, meeting them, you know-

Val: Yeah ...

Andrew: being, being with them, traveling 50,000 miles a year to meet all these families is part of why he felt so strongly that they were the heroes.

Val: That they were the heroes…

Andrew:. Yeah. Yeah, it's a big ask.

Val: Man. No, that's, you know, that's, that's poking me in the chest right now because I don't know 195 of their names.

Andrew: Right. Yeah.

Val: And many of them sacrificed everything for me to go to school where I went, so, and my kids to go to school where they've gone, and for us to be able to have this con- conversation here.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Oof.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, that's heavy.

Val: That is heavy, friend.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Yeah. I would love if we could put their name in the show notes.

Andrew: I, yeah. Okay. I, I got them. Yeah. I mean, cer- certainly, certainly one thing to do is to send your kid to a public school where they are not- Right ... contributing to segregation. Right. To get involved in the community, to show up, to listen, to become part of the community, and then to advocate for educational justice, for funding for our public schools, for maintaining our public schools, for the system of public education. Like, that is something.

And, and, you know, I, I guess I struggle a little bit with that because certainly my school choices don't feel like sacrifices. I know there are things that we gave up. We, we like prioritize different things than other families might, but it doesn't feel like a sacrifice for my kids to be where they are and for them to be, you know, learning all of the various things that they're learning right now.

And like, it is, that is an important thing that, that certainly we encourage everybody to think about when you're thinking about how do you, you know, do your part to contribute to democracy. How do your part to, as Thurgood Marshall asks, to, to, you know, be, be a contributing member of this democracy? That's certainly a good place to start.

Val: You know, it's funny because I think some people would think that sending your kid to public school is the sacrifice. Yeah. But we're here to say that it's not. It's not. It's actually a place where your child can learn how to be an active member in their own little democracy before growing up into a larger democracy. And so hopefully you don't feel like public school is a sacrifice that you're making for your young people, because there's so much value in it.

Uh, Ms. Marshall talked about words like diversity, equity, inclusion, and how- Yeah ... those are beautiful words. Right. And we should not be afraid to say them. Like, I like her, I cannot think of a reason why we wouldn't want to aspire to those things in our community, right?

Yep. And so it is not a sacrifice for your young people to go to a public school where they can be around a diverse group of young people, racially, socioeconomically, ability, right? It's, it's all part of our community anyway. And so why not get, why not get a head start, right, in how to live together?

Andrew: Yeah, certainly the ethos behind Thurgood Marshall, you know, hi- th- unless we learn together, there's little hope we learn to live together and understand each other. Um, and-

Val: Did you just quote him again? [laughter]

Andrew: I mean, I got to. Every, every- Every episode ... two times an episode I was told, so. And why I think, yeah, yeah, the work of the Thurgood Marshall Foundation feels so important to s- to spread this legacy, to share. I can't wait to see the museum when it is ready, and touring around the country is so very exciting.

And certainly that ethos drives so much of the work at Integrated Schools. And so we, on this Brown v. Board anniversary, are happy to announce our 1954 campaign. We are asking for listeners, community members, to donate $19.54 or $195.40, $1,954.

You take your pick. Um-

Val: $19,540.

Andrew: Yeah, why stop there? Why stop there? We would be grateful for it all to support the work of Integrated Schools, and half of those proceeds we will be donating to the Thurgood Marshall Foundation to support the important work that Ms. Marshall is doing in honor of her grandfather's legacy.

So there'll be a link in the show notes to a link to donate from that. We would be very grateful for your support.

Val: And your support also looks like listening to our episodes and sharing them broadly. Sharing them within your community, talking about these issues with another caregiver, with your friends and family.

The more that we are able to generate these conversations, the more that we're able to shift collective consciousness so that we can help create the world that, that is good for all of us.

Andrew: Yes. And we wanna know how those conversations go. What is your memory of Thurgood Marshall? How are you feeling on this 72nd anniversary of the Brown v.Board decision? Where have we made progress? Where do we still have work to do?

Send us a voice memo. We wanna hear about it. Speakpipe.com/integratedschools, S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E.com/integratedschools, or just record us a voice memo and email it to us, podcast@integratedschools.org.

Val: Check us out on Patreon as well. You can join us over there, where you'll get additional show notes, occasional happy hours with us, and an opportunity to increase your investment in the Integrated Schools community.

Andrew: Yes. Well, Val, 72 years ago, Brown v. Board was decided. Obviously, an important victory, and still lots of work left to do. It was an honor to get to speak to Thurgood Marshall's granddaughter, Cecilia Marshall, and as always, an honor to be in these conversations with you as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time.