S7E15 – Examining Anti-Blackness: A Multiracial Parent Roundtable

S7E15 - Examining Anti-Blackness: A Multiracial Parent Panel

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Examining Anti-Blackness: A Multiracial Parent Roundtable.

Val: That's a title that seems like it's going to be difficult to listen to Andrew.

Andrew: It might be, it might be. We have a great conversation today with two great guests that you found for us. Can you tell us about them?

Val: Absolutely. Our first guest is Dr. Daniela Suárez Boyd. Um, I actually know her because we were in a doctoral program together. And so, I'm very happy to give her her props. Uh, we've known each other for several years, and I'm really glad that she trusted me to jump on and have this really important conversation.

Also lucky enough to have Tricia Ebarvia, another friend of mine for several years. We know each other, I think initially through social media, but we do cross paths a lot through our anti-racist work together. And I'm just extremely grateful to have two people who I know and love, and who love me on this podcast talking about anti-Blackness today.

Andrew: Yeah, they are great. You only know the best people Val.

Val: I try. Including you sir, including you.

Andrew: Oh thank you. Yeah, I was not fishing for a compliment there, but I’ll take it.

Val: You got it though.

Andrew: They are phenomenal. And it is, uh, yeah, it's a heavy conversation. So, the last episode was Dr. Chantal Hailey talking about the, kind of, racial hierarchy in school choices. And in that episode, Val, you mentioned the power of having these conversations in our own communities. And so we thought it would be great to pull together a multiracial panel to discuss what we heard. And so, if listeners haven't heard that last episode, it would be great to go back and start there and then come back here.

Val: I do want to offer a content warning for all listeners, but especially Black listeners, because anytime that there is a discussion around anti-Blackness, it can be painful to hear how communities could hold those positions. Whether they're White communities or other communities of color.

The folks that are on the call today, I love them and they love me and we've had these conversations offline before. And so, their willingness to talk about some things that they recognize in their own communities I think requires courage that I appreciate them showcasing here. But I definitely want all listeners to know, and especially Black listeners to know, like we talk about things that, um, that can be painful to hear. Because as a Black woman, I love my Blackness. I love my Black children. I love my Black family. And it's hard when other communities don't always see the value in that. And obviously that's not our guests today, but there are others. And so I think, um, just hang with us if you can. If you can't, um, we understand, but come next time because we're still trying to do the hard work. I will say, we leave hopeful. We don't solve racism this episode, but as always, we leave hopeful.

Andrew: Don't, don't give it away Val! We've got to keep people guessing. Maybe this is the one that we actually do it.

Val: This is the one where we actually don't solve racism yet, y'all. So, uh, keep coming back.

Andrew: Yeah. I really enjoyed the conversation. I really appreciate you being vulnerable and willing to engage in it. And I hope listeners will stick with us if they can because these conversations are hard, but also very important.

Val: Yeah. And as people engage in these conversations in their own community, I do want to encourage authentic relationships with folks before you take those leaps. Because again, these conversations are built on years of dialogue around these very issues and all of us constantly doing work. I learned a lot about their experiences through this conversation and I encourage listeners to take that same stance as we're engaging today.

Andrew: Yeah. Should we take a listen?

Val: Absolutely, let’s do it.

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Daniella: My name is Dr. Daniella Boyd. She, her, ella are my pronouns. I identify as Latina and I am the daughter of immigrants. I'm a first generation American. My parents both are from Ecuador. My entire family basically is still in Ecuador. I started my career as a classroom teacher in Miami-Dade County Public Schools, and went to grad school in Boston. Taught in Boston, moved back to south Florida and was teaching in my hometown area. Took a leave of absence once I had my second child almost a year ago, he's almost one. I'm currently doing some freelance curriculum design work and just being at home. I'm working with my kids. My oldest has an IEP. He's supposed to be in school. I'm homeschooling him, so I have a lot of thoughts about school and what ideas we have for kids who are neurodivergent, and what that looks like for my own child as well.

Val: Your oldest is still pre-kindergarten age?

Daniella: Yeah, he’s preschool age. So he would have been going into preschool, in a unit for his neurodivergence. So that was what was recommended for him for his diagnosis.

Andrew: Tricia.

Tricia: Hi, I am Tricia Ebarvia, she/her. I have been a classroom teacher for more than 20 years. I taught at a very large, predominantly White, suburban high school. Very similar to the high school that I actually went to. And, I'm currently the director of diversity, equity and inclusion at a small independent school, a Quaker school, actually. I'm not Quaker, but it's been a journey.

I racially identify as Asian-American and culturally identify as second generation Filipino. My parents are immigrants from the Philippines. So all of that will probably come into our conversation today because I had so many things I was thinking about when I was listening to the podcast.

Val: And are you a parent?

Tricia: Oh yes, I am a parent. Thank you. I am a parent of three boys, 17, 15, and an 11 year old. So 6th grade, 9th grade and 11th grade. So, yes.

Andrew: Well, maybe we can start by just sort of big picture takeaways. Listening to the Dr. Hailey episode, what stuck out at you? Daniella, do you want to go first?

Daniella: I would say that I was not surprised at anything that I heard. I think that the research is very important but you know, those of us who have lived certain experiences and see certain things, it really isn't surprising.

Andrew: Yeah.

Tricia: That was also my reaction. I wasn't surprised, but I was also, um, disappointed. As an Asian American, I understand and I'm disappointed that this is how we're showing up. I was really curious as I was listening and of course I was, as I was listening, I was making it all about me. And I was thinking, what does this mean in terms of my own experience and how is it reflected? And a question that I kept thinking about was, I wonder if you could even disaggregate the data among Asian-Americans further. Like, what does that look like? Like I wondered how many of these Asian American parents and students, to what extent were they immigrants. You know, children of first gen immigrants, because I think that does make a difference.

My parents immigrated here and I always think about how they made choices in terms of my schooling and my brother's schooling that very much would have reflected… I mean, we moved from an all Black neighborhood right when I was about to start school into a White suburb, about 15 miles away. And they never talked about race or racism, but they were definitely sending a message we have to go to a good school. And then a good school meant school with lots of White kids. And in both places, not a lot of Asian kids. So it just made me think about the choices that my parents made, and not in a way that faults them for any of the choices they'd necessarily made. But like, I always wonder, like how could they have done better, but then how would they have known better being in this country for two, three years before I was born?

Daniella: Yeah, Tricia, I had some questions also about the disaggregating of the data. Because I was thinking, based on my experiences, like teaching in Miami, teaching here, as a daughter of immigrants, what that split looks like. And then I thought, like, with the Latinx/Latine community, like intersectionality, so there are Black Latinos. So what does it look like for Black Latinos? What is their experience? What are their thoughts? If you ask them, how would they self identify? How is that captured in the data? And then just personally, my children are biracial. My husband is Black. I identify as Latina. And so I know that questions of identity are going to be big. You feel like you don't fit into those boxes that are usually put out for this type of data, you know? But neither do immigrants.

I was thinking as I was listening to the podcast of my own experience, feeling like I wasn't enough to fit in here, into schools here, into the schooling experience. And so, what it looked like to kind of, de-culture, you know, like to leave your culture behind and to assimilate and let go of some of your own immigrant culture, because you feel like you didn't fit in. But then you also weren't immigrant enough to be taken in by, like, your parents community, because you were born here. And so, I wondered about the students similar to what you were saying, Tricia, was like, how do the students especially identify? Because that does affect your experience in school and in the community that you want to surround yourself with. And, you know, the sense of belonging that you want to create for yourself.

But also anti-Blackness is just such a global problem that, like, you know, with Latinos. Gosh, Latinos can look so many different ways. Our proximity to Whiteness, you know, it just has so many different benefits. So I was having all of these thoughts about just, like, labels, and how messy they are and how tied to just, like, colonialism, everything is. Even Latinos, and how it excludes people of indigenous backgrounds who come from like Central and South America, how technically our Haitian brothers and sisters are Latino, but they're not seen that way. And they're, like, Black. So like, what do you, what do you do with that? So I just had a lot of thoughts on that.

Val: So, I think I understand the “not surprised.” I think. I can't ever say that I'm not. I think I'm always surprised. I think I'm always surprised. And, I don’t know why. I think I just don't understand the fullness of anti-Blackness in other communities of color. I think I just don't get it. It just doesn't make sense to me as I can easily identify White supremacy as the enemy. Right? And so I'm always surprised when I hear about anti-Blackness in other communities of color. And I'm thinking about both of your stories and just being born of immigrant parents just about the global anti-Blackness and how your parents were here for a little bit before they decided, “Oh, we can't align with Black folks because that would put us at a disadvantage.”

Andrew: I think the issue with labels is really, I mean, that's real. Racial categories are always tricky and certainly broad categories like Latinx or Asian American that just encompasses such a huge part of the world, and so many different people, like, I think you were both mentioning. But if you kind of had to guess if you, if you could imagine what the disaggregated data looks like, what does your gut say would be different about the data if you could disaggregate it?

Tricia: My guess, but I think I will also be disappointed again. My guess is that the longer that Asian Americans have been in this country, in terms of like second, third, fourth generation, my guess and hope is that anti-Blackness would not be as pronounced as when you're someone like my parents or me. Like this, you know, first, second generation and new immigrants. And, I keep thinking about like my parents experience, they came here. I'm not sure that they, I don't know, I've never asked them. Like, had they seen like a Black person even before they came to this country? I don't know. I don't know how many Black people there are in the Philippines. I don't think that many.

And they were here and their whole goal was to be successful to make money in order to send back to their home country. And it is anti-Blackness. I want to name that clearly. And it's also being more White. Do what, like, “Where are the resources and who is, who's got the resources. That's where we need to go.” And that's what they did. So every move in my educational experience was always towards Whiter communities because those were where “better” schools were, because my parents had this belief in education as being like this fundamental, like, thing that was going to pull everyone out of poverty. I mean, they were very well educated when they came here. And so that's just what they did. And they weren't really thinking about, like, the larger context. They were just thinking of them, their family, their kids. Move this direction.

Val: Do you know how they defined better schools? Was it just the more resources?

Tricia: So I think part of it was more resources, for sure. And I think, yes, they also identified it with safety. I remember growing up watching the news, which is one reason why I don't let my kids watch the local news now. I remember watching the news when I was younger and just seeing like, you know, who would be like the mugshots and the faces of the people who were murderers and killers. And like, it was just really… no one talked to me about that. And so, that message was also there. And then I look around in my community and then my mom and dad say, “We have to move to go to a better school”. I’m like, “Okay.” What do I know? I just, we just go. And so it was also like two lessons, right? Like who's deserving of better schools? So I guess all these White people here, and I guess I'll be part of this community.

Andrew: Your parents likely didn't arrive… I mean, there's global anti-Blackness for sure.

Tricia: Yeah. Oh, sure. Colorism in the Philippines, especially, I mean, yeah.

Andrew: But even if they had arrived with very little, kind of, internalized, anti-Blackness just from lack of exposure, they still very quickly would have gotten the message because of the way that we tell the story both in the media, but also certainly the way we talk about schools and “good schools.” It doesn't take you very long to say what's the good school. Well, the White people get their kids into the good schools. So the good schools must be where all the White kids are.

Tricia: And then as I got older, it was then test scores. Like, what's the average SAT score in this place? So the second move was to a district. Because I went to Catholic school. Right? So, and then I, and then after Catholic school, oh, and that means it's all messed up. Because then I associated, like, goodness with also Catholics. And, you know, I come from a colonized country, like this, it's all layered.

[All laughing]

Val: Layers! Layers!

Tricia: So, it's just layers and it's all of it, but then when it was time to move to our, I guess, third home at this point. I remember my parents looking at what was the average SAT score in this particular high school. So it's all set up this way. Right?

Andrew: That's all the messages they got. Right. I mean, that's the message certainly that we give to White parents. I mean, the message that White parents give to everyone, because we don't think that there are different messages for different people. One of the themes that sort of comes out of the research that I, yeah, similarly, I don't think I was surprised by, but certainly sort of struck by was just the idea that there is wide variety in terms of what actually a good school is, depending on who you're asking. But certainly White parents don't usually live in that nuance. And the message we send is, you know, the Whiter the school, the better.

Daniella: So I'm also thinking about like, especially in immigrant groups, like documentation status and how that affects how you live, you know? Do you have parents that are living in the shadows if you were born here? How might that affect the decisions that they make when it comes to your proximity to Whiteness and to achieving what they cannot achieve. And just being born here in this country already gives you a degree of being closer to Whiteness than, you know, someone who's undocumented. There is data that shows that this definitely affects the educational outcome, like the parents’ documentation status and how they are perceived in this country. How they are received in this country. Do they have an enclave to come to?

So, I think when you do have a community, even if it's a small one, that that can influence your educational decisions. And you're more likely to listen to people who have been here longer. And they're obviously influenced by the same images that you brought up Tricia, and seeing the local news and whatever the gossip is about the local schools in churches and so forth. And so, wherever it is that you find community, that's usually where you're going to lean on to support if you don't know better.

So, anti-Blackness is never justified, but this country just doesn't make it easy for anyone who is not born here. For anyone who is othered. It is not easy. And unfortunately this country also creates a hierarchy, right, of who is more valuable. And you can kind of see that in the responses that Dr. Hailey was talking about, was just how, when you ask people to rank, they will. Because they're doing it already in every single decision that they're making. They're creating these hierarchies. And so, it tells us, like, whose worth is greater. And whoever's got the greater worth, like, that's what you got to achieve. That's what you got to work towards. And it's not right, but that's, that's how the society has kind of made it, you know? And so if you're trying to make it here in this country, that's what you kind of assimilate to sometimes.

Val: Just then thinking about assimilation and that hierarchy, do you feel like you don't have a choice? Like that was a question, a related question that I asked Dr. Hailey, right? Do you feel like you were forced to decide that in order for your own livelihood? I think, I just imagine what some folks imagine Black folks’ life to be like. And it must just be really awful, is my guess, for people to want to avoid it so much. Do you feel like you have a choice?

Tricia: I think first, I want to say Val, that I, I want to recognize that the effect of this conversation on you as a Black woman, like, in speaking about, you know, like Daniella said, like anti-Blackness is never justified. And yet, I can understand… it's almost like you come to this country and there's like a set of directions. And you follow the set of directions. It's everywhere! Right? And I think too about that I teach Just Mercy, and then Brian Stevenson always says we have to get proximate to others' experiences. And my parents had no ability to be in proximity with Black folks in ways that were truly authentic and meaningful. And to counter these messages that they were getting from like the media, to counter these messages they were getting. I mean, they were, they were looking at the media as their instruction manual. Right? And they were looking at these stereotypes and they were looking at all of this. So this is like, “Okay, this is, this must be what it is. And therefore this must be the truth. And I'm not in relationship with anyone, even though I live in this community, I'm not in relationship with anyone. So this is just how it's going to go. And this is what I will do.”

And again, it's not justified, but they were in this sense of like, “Now we have children. Now we're going to go to the place where we think our children will be safe, where we think our children will be well-educated, where we think,” like all these things, because these are the messages they've received and it doesn't make it right in any way. I can understand it.

However, for me and my brother and our children, like we have the, I guess, I don't know if it's the privilege or the experience, being born here of seeing a fuller picture.

Val: Hmm.

Andrew: Can you talk a little more about that? It feels like you have rejected those ideas that, and I totally hear you there. It is wrong and it is very understandable how newly arriving in this country, you would read the instruction manual and think the instruction manual has something valuable to say. But you seem to have rejected a lot of that. What was it in, kind of, your background and your history? How'd you find a different instruction manual?

Tricia: I don't know. I wish it was, I was like, I was thinking that. I was like, how-

Andrew: Because if we could just bottle that up that would be great!

Tricia: I don't know, it just happened.

Val: You probably went to those all White schools and you're like, oh, this is not great.

[all laughing]

Tricia: Yeah. I mean that's yes, there you go. That's what it was. It was like, what is going on here? Cause then you, well, because then you experience racism yourself and then you're like, okay, why am I trying to fit into a place that doesn't really accept me? It doesn't really see me. And you just keep trying to do that to whatever extent you can and then you try to figure it out and then you realize, you know, maybe this White supremacy thing, isn't a good thing after all. And then, and maybe I need to think differently about things. And honestly, I think education, really like knowing the full history and continuing to understand and learn history about, you know, the experiences of different people here. It does develop empathy and understanding in a way that just can't be discounted.

And I think about how much learning I'm still doing. And I'm like, I keep thinking like, what chance did my parents have? And it's not even like my own social studies education was that great. I mean, it was good, but it wasn't, I mean, there's a lot of stuff missing and I fell into all the same traps about thinking about, you know, our forefathers and so on. But if that's what I had, what chance do people like my parents have?

Val: Right, as adults, yeah. No, that's tough.

Daniella: I think that's kind of what I was thinking too was if our parents, or if immigrant parents didn't have the opportunity to experience what schooling is like here and develop their own friendships that were outside of their small community, where they feel safe, because they're in a new place that they're trying to survive in, that it would have made a difference, or they would have had the opportunity to have those meaningful interactions that you talked about Tricia. Because I think about my parents and a lot of other immigrant parents that I knew, where they would find community was not in a lot of places because you were working, you were with your family. Like, it, you know, it might be church. It might be like a social group with people from your country. So, I think if like my parents had a chance to actually go to school here that maybe they would have had like a different outlook. And I think that with us going to school here, like I saw them evolve to the point where like we chose where we wanted to go to high school. They weren't telling us you have to go to this school, you have to go to that school, you have to do this. We were given the opportunity to kind of choose. It was on us and they trusted us. And that was huge. From where they started, you know, they were scared because they just wanted us to be okay and to learn. And then realizing like, my kids can do this. Like, they're going to be fine.

Andrew: Yeah, that's fascinating. The grooves in my mind are very comfortable with the generational work going down generations. But you're also talking about that, like the power of the learning to move up a generation as well, that as you develop friendships, as you start to find your own way through school, through relationships, through, you know, getting to know people that actually then your parents are able to sort of say, “Oh, okay. Maybe this is not as terrifying as I was led to believe, maybe the directions weren't actually right.”

Daniella: Absolutely. And I mean, my siblings and I went to middle school in a Black neighborhood and my brother and I went to high school in a Black neighborhood. And, you know, we made all kinds of friends that we wouldn't have otherwise, and that my parents wouldn't have been able to meet otherwise because they didn't have that way of connecting. Like as Spanish speakers, it's like when we, their only way of socializing was going to church and that was Spanish speaking so it's very limited. So we were able to bring that to them. And I think back to a lot of the decisions my parents made and also like my experience growing up when I think about how I parent and how in an ideal world, I would love for my kids to experience school whenever that happens.

Like, and I do think about how I wouldn't want to send them to a school that was all White. I would want them to know all kinds of people. So I do reflect on that a lot and I even think about it in terms of where I want to find community. I want them to see people come together. And I don't want to limit my kids. Like I don't want to limit them to a language or to a single identity. I want them to do better than I did. I want them to experience more than I did. I want them to have richer, deeper experiences and pick amazing, meaningful friendships like I did, but me being more conscious about like all of these decisions, like it's just, it's good and it's bad because then I overthink things too.

Andrew: Yup. That's a beautiful, beautiful wish for your kids.

Val: I'm just thinking about what both of you said. And I think our parents, we, all of us on the call, can relate to, we just want our kids to be okay. You know, like that is common amongst all of us in every generation. I don't think that changes. And I like to hold onto those places of just commonality and shared humanity, because I think that is what helps make the work of trying to create these spaces that you're describing Daniella, really worth it.

Andrew: Tricia, when you think about what kind of schools you want for your kids, what comes to mind?

Tricia: I chose to live two miles from my parents. That's like, number one was to be close to them and two miles from my parents is the neighborhood I grew up in, which is, you know, a predominantly White neighborhood. But I do feel like I can, and we, you know, my husband and I try to supplement. There's like the school education. And then there's like the supplementary education that goes on at home to make sure that they're okay. And then I'm always, so really trying hard, not to project my experiences onto them. I'll ask them, do you feel like, how do you feel about being someone who is, you know, Asian? And there's a decent Asian American population, but there's still like, that’s the other thing too, when we think about disaggregating data and stuff. You know, Filipinos are not like east Asians and most of the communities here are Chinese and Korean and it's, and I always, it was like a margin within like this more already marginalized community. And so it's just like, I don't really fit in there with them. I don't really fit in over here. And I'm just kinda gonna be over here. And like, I don't know, I don't know where I fit in.

So I ask my kids about stuff like that and mostly they just make friends with whoever's around. You know, is the way they think of it. And I pay attention to their friend groups and try to see like, how diverse is this group? And I hope that I can model in my friendships what being in community with lots of different folks looks like, you know? And I hope that even the work that I do and you know, the DEI work and being kind of very open about that is part of that like supplementary education that they're getting about how they can sort of think about their life beyond just the community that they're in.

Andrew: Yeah. Say more about like what, when you think about what needs to be supplemented. And, and how important is it that you supplement?

Tricia: My supplementing is like, well, what did you learn in school about X, Y, or Z? Mommy, we're studying this. Oh, interesting. Did your teacher tell you about this? You know, like that is… so my son did a paper. Like I helped him with it, on the Progressive Era. Right? Got a 96 on it, so I’m proud.

Andrew: You both got a 96 on it.

Tricia: We both, we got a 96 on it. And he did this paper on the Progressive Era and he's supposed to talk about, you know, the changes and how they relate to whatever. So I'm like, oh, well, you should be talking about racism. We should talk about immigration and xenophobia. Like we should talk about all these things. Did your teacher tell you about these things? “Uh, we talked about suffrage and we talked about antitrust laws and like there was this and that.” And I'm like, okay, well, so like that's part, that's like part of that supplementing, you know?

So those are the places where I'm trying to supplement the narratives that… and he's got pretty decent teachers. I mean, I actually recommended the Teaching Hard History podcast to one of their social studies teachers and like, to this social studies teacher's credit, a White man was like, he followed up with me. We had meetings about what he was learning and like, oh yeah. He's like my biggest takeaway is that slavery can't be taught as a unit. It has to be really taught throughout history. I'm like, yes, I know.

Val: Okay social studies teacher!

Tricia: So that's the supplementary

Andrew: So the straight academic stuff, the school's probably got like math skills, algebra, whatever, that stuff, the school’s got pretty locked down. But you, you feel the need to kind of supplement the like critical consciousness, like let's get at the real, the real history stuff. Yeah. What about you Daniella?

Daniella: I think this is one of the reasons why I chose not to send my child to school. Is because here in Florida, things are not so great in our public schools. And I am afraid that if, you know, my son wanted to take one of his books and it's about like his Blackness and his identity, that someone's going to be offended. And then it becomes a whole ordeal, and he will feel like he can't be himself. He can't share things that he enjoys. So it's something that I am wrestling with.

We talk so much about identity here at home. Like I want them to be secure in their multiple identities. I want them to be proud of their identities and if they can't be their true selves in school right now, that's an area that I don't know that I'm making the right choice, you know, but it feels like it's the only way that I can still protect my child and, like his joy, you know, like, I don't want people to strip him of his joy and I feel like a lot of our schools are doing that right now. I feel like, you know, with him being so young and like my youngest is very young I would be supplementing a lot about their identities here at home. Even if there wasn't this legislation here in Florida, simply because I am not sure that schools get it right all the time. And especially when they're little, but this is like when they're so impressionable, you know, like I want them to always be secure in who they are and not have someone else define that for them. So I want them to get that from me. I want to be the one to affirm them. I want to be the one to work with them and guide them with that so that they can go to school in confidence in who they are. A lot of the identity talk is about the negatives, like the, how are you going to defend yourself? What are you going to do in this situation? And less about joy and like freedom and so for me, I know that's my big responsibility here at home. My supplementing is that joy is like, we celebrate joy every single day. Like my kids will dance at the store. I'm here every single day.

Val: To Cardi B, I've seen the video.

Daniella: To Cardi B, to whomever they want to listen to, like they just want, they just, they both love music. They just like, this is a vibe. Like I can, I, you know, I feel an affinity to it. And I feel like that is my job as their mom and as the only non-Black person in this household, like I have to continually celebrate Black joy and help them to dream because I don't think that our schools are there. Like I said, I want to hope that schools can get there. But I know right now that they're not there. So that right now at their age, that would be my big, like supplementing that I would do here at home.

Andrew: The idea is that like to find a school that is not going to harm him so much, that you can continue to affirm his identity at home. That's like the dream that you hope to get to. The idea that a school could actually do that kind of affirming of his own identity feels sort of totally out of reach.

Daniella: For sure, for sure, that a school would even be allowed to, and even if a teacher wanted to.

Val: Yeah,for sure, for sure.

Andrew: What do you think about supplementing Val?

Val: Similar to both of our guests here, definitely the identity piece. I think about my own schooling, even though I went to predominantly Black schools throughout, there was still lots of supplementing from my family around Black history and Black identity and Black joy. That was always part of our ongoing conversations. I think I did feel affirmed in my predominantly Black schools. And I know we've talked about this before, but if I had to choose between an all White space where they could possibly get more resources and a space where their identity could be affirmed, I'm choosing the identity affirming space every single time. And I also do the critical consciousness, right. Follow up, like, okay, let's talk more about that. I remember my daughter brought home this, this is in second grade and she was like, yeah, we have to talk about the pilgrims, and I'm like that colonized? I didn't plan on doing this tonight. You know…

Andrew: I guess nobody's getting sleep tonight.

Val: Yeah, I guess we got to start this tonight. And so, I think those are also conversations that we just have to have, because we know that they aren't being asked those types of questions all the time at schools. I really want to applaud the history teacher who recognized, you know, a particular gap in his knowledge and the way that he changed course and making sure that he taught a fuller picture of American history, but those conversations aren't always received well, you know, we're like, “Hey, have you thought about including this perspective?” And you get, you know, “Well, this is the way we do it.”

Andrew: Or now you get, “I would love to, and I'm afraid I'm going to get sued.”

Val: Oh, fired, sued, attacked publicly. Yeah. All of that. And so I'm just really thinking about all of the choices that we have to make. And the reasoning behind it and our hopes that like we're making the right decision. Like, I don't know that I am always making the right decision. Right? And I think that's all of us here.

Andrew: I mean to Linn Posey-Maddox’s point from that piece that Dr. Hailey mentioned, for Black parents there isn't a right choice. So it's like, what's the, what's the least bad option?

Val: I want everybody to know I'm making a weird face because I don't know how to follow up with that. And I am like feeling hopeful because my kids are on the other side of like schooling, right? Like I have four years for one and five years for another and I'm like, okay, I think we can make it. They are strong thinkers, strong, critical thinkers. They are proud of who they are as young people. So I'm hopeful that, you know, that's enough to carry them through school, you know? But it is a tough choice and it's one that, uh, I grapple with all the time, all the time. And the decisions that we make in terms of, I'm thinking about your parents are like where to live to make sure that that happens and where to hang out in social groups to make sure that it's supplemented in the way that they need. That's all just constantly on my mind and I hope I'm doing it right.

Andrew. I'm curious about if White folks feel there's a need to supplement and what that looks like.

Andrew: So I think there's something about, like, we all hope that we're doing it right. We all hope that. And there's no way to know, like you don't get to run it back and try it a different way and see how, see how it plays out. And there's something so kind of terrifying about that. And I think that that's part of what leads to like all the messages Tricia, that your parents got was like, this is here, here it is. It's not actually as complicated as you think it is. Just like, go to the good school, go to the school with the high SAT scores or go to the school that's rated blue you know, like, let me take this, pressure off of your back. And you can feel like you're doing the right thing. And so I think for White parents, we are never called to ask the other side of that question. Right? Like we never have to think about their identity being for all these things that the three of you are grappling with in terms of like, what am I giving my kids? We don't ask White parents to think about that. And we just say, you know, what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to move to a place with good schools. Right? And White parents aren't ever asked to kind of grapple with the other side of like, what does it mean to my kid's identity? But when I hear the three of you talk about what you do for your kids outside of school, it's the same thing that I do for my kids out of school. Right? Like the things that I worry about is like, what kind of like critical consciousness are they developing? What sort of understanding of these same things? You know, if they're, they're talking about pilgrims, like, are they understanding that in the context of colonization, are they, those are the same things that I feel like my kids need. If they are going to grow up to be, you know, decent human beings.

Tricia: It's interesting because I think we're currently in a moment where there are a lot of White parents who are wondering about how their children's identity is being nurtured in schools.

[All Laughing]

Andrew: Yeah. It's very…

Tricia: And I think there's a different kind of supplementary education that a lot of White folks are doing right now with their kids.

Val: Indeed. Indeed!

Tricia: And so I, it's interesting to think about the ways in which in the last couple years with all of these, you know, anti CRT bills, a lot of White folks who are being challenged to think about how they're, I mean, all of these, I mean, one of the bills is like nothing to make White kids feel bad. Like, I mean..

Andrew: Or uncomfortable.

Daniella: That’s Florida.

Tricia: So, I mean, that's essentially like grappling with how is, how are my children's identities being affirmed? They're not, because now you're talking about all this racism stuff and I don't want that. And so I think even when I was teaching, there were parents who, and I think this is what's happening right now. There is this kind of other supplementary education that's happening in some White folks' homes around, well, your teacher says this, but all those teachers are just liberals and they're just trying to indoctrinate you, but here's the real story. And then they're supplementing with their own. And it really I think shows or reveals a lack of true understanding for the experiences of people who've been always historically marginalized in this country.

Val: I think we all initially can understand, and I'm sure I certainly bought into it as well. Like I need to go to where the good schools are, but as soon as my child gets there and I see like, that lack of joy, that spark in their eyes that Daniella talks about, I'm like, oh, I have to change all of this completely. And so I think we are susceptible to that narrative. Like, this is what a good school is. This is what it looks like. I don't know how many options I had for a high school choice, but I walked to my high school’s, neighboring high school and I ended up loving it. Right? And it was also surrounded by barbed wire fence, but I just thought all schools were like that. I don't know. Right. So, I think we project those fears onto our young people. There's no reason why we can't tell our young people, “Hey, this is going to be a great school. You're gonna have a great experience. You're gonna have some great teachers and some terrible teachers.” Because we know that at the top schools, they are not all great teachers. And so there's going to be great teachers at all of these schools. And there's going to be great opportunity and people come out of every type of school and do well. And so we project that onto our young people. And that's unfortunate because that's how we can continue to perpetuate these ideas.

Daniella: One of the things that I have been thinking about a lot is while we are parenting our kids, we're also re-parenting ourselves. And there's…

Val: I like that.

Daniella: …a lot that, you know, where we reflect on and we can simultaneously agree that our parents did the best that they could with what they knew. And say there was stuff that they could have done better. There was stuff that they missed. There's stuff that I'm going to do better. And it doesn't mean that we can't appreciate what they tried to do for us or their intentions. But, by us trying to do better, it also means trying to get them to see the better now in their grandkids and their great-grandkids. And that's something that does give me hope. Like, my parents, like I saw some change in them even as I was going into like high school and so forth, just them having other experiences that they didn't have, but now even with their own grandkids and seeing me as a mother and the conscious decisions that I am making and us having these conversations. These are conversations that are not fun to have, but they're important. And they're part of the re-parenting process as well. And so I do have hope for our kids. Because we know better and we're going to continue to seek out knowledge and we're going to continue to seek out different perspectives. And also challenge ourselves, you know, like I think our kids will be better for it. And I do think that despite any legislation or anything that's being thrown their way, they're still gonna grow up secure. And that's going to be because of us, you know, and that's going to be so dope to say like not because of anything that anyone else did, but because of the conscious decisions that I made as a parent based on this process, this cycle that we've embarked on as, we unlearn and then learn how to better parent our kids or how to try and better parent your kids, you know? Cause all we can do is just try and be better.

Val: That was super hopeful.

Andrew: For real. That the power of kind of the bi-directionality of that, feels really important to me too, because it is reshaping your parents' ideas, which means that our kids at some point will help reshape our ideas and the generational work goes in multiple directions. Yeah. I think that feels hopeful because they're the kind of ripple effects are there, and it makes the importance of being thoughtful, of bringing critical consciousness to your decisions as a parent, it makes the stakes feel even higher on that because you have the ability to kind of ripple in both directions, generationally that feels really powerful.

Val: I'm just curious. Do either of you feel responsible to have these conversations within your communities?

Daniella: I think that it's especially important in the Latin X community to have these conversations, like, gosh, like anti-Blackness is so deep in the Latin X community. And I don't want to put people in monoliths, I don't want to like speak for anybody, but I see it a lot across generations and that's just telling me because some people aren't being challenged in a certain way or because they may not know better or they haven't been put in a position where they can hear other perspectives. Like I do personally feel responsible. Like whenever I can talk about it to someone who identifies you know, similarly to me that we might be able to connect that way. I do make it my mission, especially people who've grown up very similar to me. I feel like we need to have these conversations. And if someone doesn’t initiate it, you don't know what opportunity you'd be missing.

Tricia: Yeah, when I was teaching, I was an advisor for the Asian American culture club. And so I think I could see so many of the same patterns just repeating themselves, and so like really trying to help a lot of the API kids work through that.

I always think about how, like my parents, their identities, I mean, not that identity is a static thing, but like their identity in their youth was really formed in a place where they weren't different…

Val: Right.

Tricia: …Where they didn't have a racial identity. And so I think about how that might have been a foundation that they could rely on when they got here, whereas their children don't have, they don't have the, I don't have the experience of being in the racial majority anywhere.

Val: Ever, ever.

Tricia: I just don’t have that experience. I don't have any idea what that's like. And I remember going to the Philippines when I was young and thinking like, whoa, like this is, this whole country is filled with people who look like me. My parents didn't know what they were doing, you know, they just tried their best. And so that's the same kind of tension that I think a lot of API students feel. And I could see it happening and I could see the ways in which they were really falling for this cycle of like White supremacy and achievement culture and, you know, high expectations and this, this, this, and it just, you could see it. And I was like, let's… What can I do? And how can I support in a way that counters that narrative.

Andrew: Hm.

Tricia: And I think a hopeful thing is this is… Like, you know, growing up, and I watched my parents work really hard, even when they weren't at work, but even at home and and then of course we know this work ethic and achievement, culture and productivity, and perfectionism is all wrapped up in White supremacy. And then, you know, last year, at some point, my mom said to me work is not life. And like, my mom doesn't have like language around White supremacy culture. She's not read White Fragility . She's like not any of this stuff. And like, what she was offering was a counter narrative to White supremacy. Work is not life. She said to me, you have to do something different. And I like to think that, you know, with time and age and experience and being in this country longer and having more authentic and meaningful relationships with different types of people and seeing their children have other types of relationships. Like I think that that has, you know, softened them.

Andrew: Well, the thing that gives me hope is conversations like these. I just am so grateful to all of you for coming and bearing your souls and bringing your brilliance and your heart to these conversations that aren't easy, but I think are important. And yeah, just really grateful. So you all give me hope.

Val: Yeah, same. I love y'all. Thank y'all for stopping by.

Tricia: Thank you.

Daniella: Thank you.

----------------------

Andrew: So, Val, what did you think?

Val: Man. Um, so, you know, like at times it was a challenge to hear how anti-Blackness shows up in various communities and again, I just want to thank Tricia and Daniella for taking the time to one; not only acknowledge that anti-Blackness is always wrong because they did that very clearly throughout the episode, but also, the way they expressed how their own experience as children of immigrants kind of informed how their parents thought about their school choices. That really stood out to me.

My experience has been one where I think because of my family's lineage, I have seen the opportunities of America through like a second class citizenship. One that wasn't always readily accessible to me without some type of fighting. Right, whether it's having access to school, having financial opportunities, having the right to vote. And so it's interesting that just globally, there's still the narrative that you can automatically do better for your family and immigrating to the United States. And in that you learn through the media primarily, that it's probably not a good idea to align with Blackness and doing that. And so immigrants who are rightly coming here for additional opportunities are faced with the idea of like, how do I get the best opportunity? And the clearest message is I don't align with Blackness. Right?

Andrew: Get as close to Whiteness as possible.

Val: That is the answer to doing that. Right? One thing that I could easily understand throughout the episode is Daniella and Tricia’s parents trying to do what was very best for their families and their children. I think again, we can all agree that that's what we're all trying to do. And so I don't fault them for doing what they thought was best for their families and, one thing I love love loved is the way as children and young adults and older adults, Daniella and Tricia talk about the impact on their own parents in this quest for a multi racial society that we're all looking forward to.

Andrew: Yeah, one of the challenges of all these kinds of conversations is the nuances, being able to hold two things at once, because they both acknowledge that anti-Blackness is wrong. Like you said, they both very clearly state that, that it's always wrong. And, they both have a lot of grace and compassion for the messages that their parents received as soon as they arrived and that, you know, the problem is White supremacy and it impacts everybody in different ways and the impact on their parents was this very clear set of directions. You came to this country to get ahead, you came to this country to give your kids better. Everybody wants their kids to have the best. And if you show up, you've got to do a lot of digging. You've got to do a lot of unpacking before you get to the realization that maybe the directions that you're reading everywhere aren't actually right. Or aren't actually good for everybody.

Val: Right. And you know, one of the underlying themes was, yeah, our parents are here working and, we don't really have time to understand the impact of America's racialized society and racial hierarchy. Because a lot of times we're just trying to make it and we're dealing with our own instances of racism. And I think about how some parents, as a result, ask their children not to speak their home languages, right? Because they don't want them to stand out. They don't want them to be placed in English language learning classes. Right. Because they do want them to be able to have the best opportunities.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I thought that Daniella kind of mentioned briefly about that idea of de-culturization that just like giving up your own culture in order to get more approximate to Whiteness in order to assimilate more. And, the messages are that's what it takes to do what you came here... You gave up your home, you left everything you knew to come here for more and what's being asked of you is to give up your culture and yeah, I, yeah. I mean, I can't obviously can't imagine the burden that that would place on, uh, on a parent. And I also think abou what's lost for all of us through that, you know, like how much richer all of our experiences could be if the demand was not to assimilate.

Val: Yeah. It does make me sad. Because one of the things I do wish I had was, a home language, you know, in the more traditional sense. I do wish I had more knowledge of my African ancestors' origin, you know? And so being asked to give that up in order to fit, that's… The cost is high.

Andrew: Yeah, the other thing that it makes me think is just how important integrated spaces are, you know, it's so easy to understand the need for a supportive community. And so, you know, newly arrived immigrants show up and if they happen to be fortunate enough to have a community of people from their country or people that they can relate to, there is that supportive network, which is really important. And if there's never any exposure outside of that network, it's really hard to push back on any of these ideas. And so, you know, the power of finding multi-racial spaces. And I think what often happens and this, I think for both Daniella and Tricia was the case is that it's the kids who then end up going to school and making relationships with other kids from other backgrounds that then ends up kind of broadening everybody's perspectives.

Val: Right. And I'm thinking a little bit about Daniella's point about what she wants for her own kids, right? Not just one type of person or one language, just to really lean in all of their multiple identities. And, I think Andrew, when we talk about like little, like pieces of liberation, that's what that feels like to me, that, you know, the message that you got like, hey, try to fit in as much as possible. Once you're an adult and you have children, it can be like, hey, I want you to embrace as many of your identities as possible. And so all of us being open to like those little like slices of liberation that we can hold on to because like the end goal is much further away, but that feels like freedom, you know, in a way that…

Andrew: A tiny bit…

Val: A little slice.

Andrew: Right. We don't have to have arrived for that to, to actually be a tiny, tiny bit more freedom.

Val: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, that's really powerful. I think that both Tricia and Daniella, their parents arrived and said, the Whitest schools are the best schools.That's what we want. And they both have said, even though, you know, Tricia is living near her parents. And so she's sort of forced into this school that maybe is Whiter than she would like, but neither of them wanted, I mean, all four of us, you know, despite Dr. Hailey's research, nobody wanted the all White school.

Val: Right. When I think about our particular audience and I would imagine that the audience also, they don't want the all White school. Right? That's why they're here to try to figure out how to make this work. You know, the truth is some folks do want the all White school. And so I'm wondering about how we can, like, in conversations, like we just had this multi-racial round table here, how we can continue to promote within our own communities and across communities about the power of these integrated spaces. So, when I asked about the responsibility, do they feel a sense of responsibility to have these conversations with their own community. I was just really grateful to hear that they are continuing these conversations. And anti-Blackness shows up in all of our communities, mine, yours, theirs, right? Like it's literally in all of them. And so how do we continue this conversation with our own communities? And then also make sure we spend the time talking to one another about how that's going. I think there are probably more people out there who believe that. My hope… that's my hope. Am I being naive? Your face says I'm being naive. Folks. His face said I am being naive.

[both laugh]

Andrew: Uh, no, I know I hope you're not being naive. I don't know. I'm yeah, man. My, my, uh, my faith in humanity right now is not at a high point, so I'm not sure. There are definitely a lot of folks out there who believe that, I think. And I think that's who we're trying to rally here.

Val: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrew: That’s who we’re trying to empower, to go out and make choices that reflect that because I think, yeah, absolutely. We all benefit from those integrated spaces and you talk about the instruction manual, everybody's reading that newly arrived immigrants maybe have had very little else to go on other than that instruction manual, but that instruction manual is there for everybody. And so it takes real deliberate, intentional choices to push back on that. And so I think, you know, I mean, that's one of the, one of the missions of Integrated Schools is to create a spot where that feels like something that people do.

Val: Yeah, one thing I really wanted to know your thoughts about was, um, when we talked about, identity framing spaces, and now the current push for more White folks to have identity affirming spaces in a way that we may not have anticipated. Love to hear your thoughts on that kind of stuff.

[pause]

Andrew: I mean, so, uh, yeah, there's, um…

Val: I'm giving him the sipping tea face now. Let me hear this one.

Andrew: Hmm. I don't think much of our audience is focused solely on White comfort. Like so much of this is based on the fear that our kids will be mildly uncomfortable. And I think that that misses the reality, which is that our kids are already uncomfortable, right? Like our kids are finally attuned to injustice. And they see it out in the world all the time. And I just don't believe that the best thing for their well being is to pretend that it doesn't exist. I think we both underestimate our kids' ability to, you know, wrap their minds around some of these concepts in a way that is not damaging to themselves. But I think we also underestimate the harm that it does to keep telling our kids this lie, that we live in a meritocracy. To keep telling our kids this lie that everyone has equal opportunity when they look out at the world and they don't see that that's the way the world actually works. I think that they internalize that. And either they're given an outlet to be able to process it and talk about it. And so hopefully that's what, you know, what I try to create in my home is that opportunity for them to say out loud, like, “hang on something, doesn't feel right about this.” And I don't, I definitely don't always do it well. I definitely don't capture every moment that I can of that. And you know, that's like a constant struggle, but feels really important. Or we tell kids like you, you don't have to feel bad, but like, I don't think you can internalize not feeling bad without also internalizing anti-Blackness. Like you, you can't not be uncomfortable unless you internalize something deeply innately inferior about people who aren't White.

Val: Hmm, just in listening to you right now, I feel the need to say out loud that, uh anti-Blackness um, I just need Black people to hear, like, it's not you, right. It's not your Blackness that is a problem. Right. And so Black folks, you're Black is beautiful. I'm super proud of mine. The fact that people are anti-Black has nothing to do with your beauty and your strength and your intelligence. And I think that is something that can get lost in even having a really honest conversation about what anti-Blackness means. Right? Cause your, the assumption is that it's like a bad thing… and it's not.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for saying that. And I mean, not to be glib, but like, it's not, you it's me, right? Like it is not the Blackness that is the problem. It is like our own relationship. And we, you know, this is not the time or the place to… but like, I do think it is sort of tied to this kind of, uh, unhealed racial trauma that White folks have that we have to deal with in ourselves. That is the root of the problem.

Val: Yeah,

Andrew: I don't need you to hold that.

Val: I'm not

Andrew: You know, you don't need to, you don't need to get into the weeds on that.

Val: I'm not going to hold that. That sounds heavy.

Andrew: To your point, like that's the power of segregated spaces as well. You know, being able to go back and forth and being able to have White spaces where White folks can talk about our unhealed racial trauma and come back together and have these productive multi-racial conversations.

Val: Yeah, you know, the conversation was difficult, but I felt power in being in this, in the space for us, where we could talk about it. I think throughout the conversation I felt, and again, I already love these people, but certainly I hope listeners feel growing empathy and connection with folks that they may not have felt before. I don't know how many of our listeners have engaged in a conversation like we just did. And, I hope people hear and feel the beauty of that connection. Right? And it's never for me about blaming folks who are sharing these experiences that they grew up with because I feel like we're all trying to get there. At least the ones who are coming on this show. Right? We're all trying to get there. And as we unpack these things that are keeping us from getting there, like we're putting down those bags and we're able to move forward together. That's huge to me.

Andrew: Yeah, I sort of had a moment near the end. I was sort of like, I can't really believe that I get to be in the middle of this conversation. Just such brilliance and such heart and such love and, particularly I think for you to bring so much of yourself to it and be willing to, be in relationship and, and engage in the conversation. Certainly, I can only imagine the difficulty of it, but I hope that the kind of promise of it… it certainly deepens my own commitment to fighting anti-Blackness, it is that proximity. It is the coming closer and being in relationship and finding shared humanity, that makes it seem even more ridiculous. Like it's dumb. Anti-Blackness is dumb.

Val: It is dumb. And I feel very clear on, White supremacy being the enemy, right? And so, as we're all trying to shed the impact of that on our own lives and we're working through that and we recognize that to be the enemy, then I believe we can move forward. I do. I am hopeful. I am hopeful after this episode. Did we just solve racism?

Andrew: I don’t think so.

Val: I don't think so. [laughs]

Andrew: I'm not all the way… it's like a little bit solved, so you definitely have to come back next time to get it the rest of the way solved next episode. What would help us get racism the rest of the way solved is if you joined our Patreon. patreon.com/integratedschools. It's a very small commitment of money every month to solve racism. Which I feel like if you're not down for that, like, there's something wrong with you, right? [laughs]

Val: There's clearly something wrong with you if you don't want to solve racism. [laughs]

Andrew: You’ve got to come over to Patreon and help support.

Val: Andrew, as always, I want to thank you for allowing me to be in community with you and with the listeners. Listeners, I want to encourage you to just keep listening and share, invite others to be a part of the conversation.

Andrew: That’s right. Well, yeah, It's a privilege to be in this with you Val as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time.