Ep 4 – Sacrificing on the Altar of Social Justice: SMOG

The Integrated Schools Podcast

Episode 04: Sacrificing your kid on the altar of Social Justice

HOSTS: Andrew Lefkowits & Courtney Mykytyn

GUEST: Denise

white mom from Santa Fe

RELEASE DATE: 11-08-2018

LINK: https://integratedschools.org/podcast/ep-4-sacrificing-on-the-altar-of-social-justice-smog/

Andrew: Welcome to the integrated schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a white dad from Denver,

Courtney: and I'm Courtney, a white mom from Los Angeles

Andrew: Episode 4, sacrificing your kid on the altar of Social Justice. So Courtney, this is one of the many things we hear a lot as a reason why a parent with the privilege of choosing the school, won't choose an integrating school or a school where most of the kids don't look like their kid.

Courtney: So this is a conversation that Andrew and I had with Denise from Santa Fe. Denise is a mom of a first grader, and she's also on our integrated schools parent board and has been helping a ton getting this podcast up and running. So you'll be hearing a lot from Denise in upcoming episodes because she's awesome and because she is often much kinder than I am,

Andrew: I'm not sure about that. She is pretty great. We're very excited to introduce her to you. You know, this is not the only one of these things that come up for people. There are a whole bunch of these, and I think Courtney, you've sort of referred to it, piggybacking off of Beverly Daniel Tatum, as “the smog”. Can you tell us about the smog?

Courtney: Yes. So the smog is really interesting. And I love how Beverly Daniel Tatum talks about it, and it kind of goes into all of these things that we breathe in and then also breathe back out without really acknowledging what they are. So we're both tools and complicetly recreating these narratives, and we don't always recognize the racism that's implied in those. So the smog is like all of the things that get said in the playground and in our mommy groups around schools on what makes a “good school” or “bad school”, those kinds of things, it's all of these stories together are things that I think we really need to work to change and especially in, you know, progressive liberal communities, right? We're not carrying tiki torches and marching in Charlottesville, but we're still breathing in and out all of this pretty dangerous and toxic smog. So whenever we're talking about school integration, it's just this dicey game right, because if you're talking about why integrating schools or schools where your kid might be the only one or one of a very few number of white and/or privileged kids. When you're talking about integrating schools and what your kid gets out of it, that's important. And that's real, and my kids have gotten a whole lot out of that. My family has gotten a whole lot of that, but too far down that line, is just opportunity hoarding, or commodifying kids of color,

Andrew: right? My kid will thrive better in the world because they had a Habitat for Humanity experience and they were student body president and they also were exposed to, you know, 8.4 black kids per year,

Courtney: right? Just another kind of opportunity hoarding. We're just using actual people, which is really, really gross, right? But yet it is also good for our kids.

Andrew: Totally.

Courtney: You have to talk about it. We can't talk about it too much, but then what's the other side? The other side is, you know, I actually think that we need integrated schools in America. I think that's what's gonna save us, right? To do that, we need white folks to step in to these spaces because we're the ones who broke it, we need to actually fix it. But as soon as you start talking like that, that's that's white saviorism in a minute, eh? So it's like, Yes, it is good for your kid and it is good for the country. But white saviorism and opportunity hoarding are just the two polar ends of that.

Andrew: right, and we want to try to skate right down the middle

Courtney: (laughter) we’re never good at that,

Andrew: but it is important to say it out loud, and it's important to acknowledge it. And it's important to talk about it because that's the only chance you have of doing it better, and of somebody calling you out when you're not doing it right,

Courtney: Yeah, and here I'm hoping that my kids will do it better than I do.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think there are some people who will who are just at baseline not going to ever be comfortable with a global majority school. And so they'll find, you know, whatever sort of excuse the narrative says is okay to use to avoid having to really consider it. But I think there are a lot of other people, hopefully some of the people listening out there who are really open to learning about these topics who you know care about this idea but also have some really like reservations and concerns about things. So today's episode is, is the first of what will be many that dive into just one of these concerns that we hear all the time. And we have a bunch more of these planned we've got, um, “I don't want my kid to be the only one,” “Is that school safe?” “What about the test scorers?” “Will my kid have academic peers?” So if there's one that you've been struggling with, one that you hear on the playground a lot, whatever let us know, shoot us an email. Hello@integratedschools.org, and we'll see if we can't put together podcast on it.

Courtney: Yep, we believe that the only way the narrative changes is if we all have a chance to talk through these different ideas and the implicit biases behind them. and I think that's how we drive change, right, like, this is the way we're going to take back the playground.

Andrew: Indeed, and now on with the show

Denise: I am Denise and I live in Santa Fe, New Mexico, a recent transplant from Dallas, Texas. I have one son who is six years old and first grade.

Courtney: Today, we wanted to talk about sacrificing our children on the altar of social justice. (laughter) I don't know. My guess is you both have heard this quite a bit as you've made the choices you've made for your own kids, right?

Denise: Yes, Absolutely.

Courtney: So how does it come out for you?

Denise: I guess for me, um, where I have taken a step back, and have been surprised by the question. After the research that I've gone through prior to my son starting kindergarten, I didn't honestly, in my heart, see it as a sacrifice at all. I think that where I came to was trying to think about what education means and what I wanted for my son in terms of his education in the long term, which I think is a really, really difficult question to answer. But, uh, for one, felt like when I went and actually visited these public schools that there were wonderful teachers and principals at many of them, and that there was great, you know, various curriculum implementation, social emotional learning, lots of different things going on there. So that was really amazing and again, made me sit back and think was there really any sacrifice going on here. And then also thinking about the fact that to me part of education is learning to be a good person that can, you know, maneuver through many different circumstances in life. And I think being friends with, learning with lots of different types of children with lots of different backgrounds is exactly how you're able to foster that type of education.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't feel like a sacrifice to me, and I think a lot of that comes from experience. I went to an integrating school, the same school that my kids now go to, and that experience was very influential and who I became, and that was always a really important part of the education that I wanted for my kids. And so I think that the part of people feeling like it might be a sacrifice is just about not having experience with it. So I think like Denise said, going actually setting foot in the school makes a big difference in terms of how you feel about it.

Courtney: So like setting foot in the school, like taking a tour, and just kind of getting a sense of is this a situation where I could imagine being here. You feel like that's kind of the first hurdle?

Denise: I think that it's one piece of the situation. If the worry is that what's being sacrificed is access to resources or some kind of quality concern, than visiting the school probably would be really, really important to see that. You know, maybe that's not the case at all. It was just rumors.

Courtney: I mean, to me, it feels like you're sacrificing what your child's future, your child safety, your child's curiosity? But what is, what are you thinking that people are meaning when they're talking about sacrificing their kids?

Andrew: Well, I think on some level people probably don't think about it that much because I think that it's an easy way out. It's sort of socially acceptable to say, “Oh man and I would never sacrifice my kids. I want the best for my kid,” and then we have this sort of shared definition of what best means in a school. So then nobody has to think too much beyond that, I mean, I think probably asking someone when they say “I don't want to sacrifice my kid” what exactly they think they're sacrificing? Gets away from the sort of cover that we have when we assume that everybody has the same definition of “good school” or “best for our kid.”

Courtney: Have you ever asked anyone what they meant?

Denise: I did.

Courtney: Please tell me how that went.

Denise: Well, it didn't go anywhere for me. I want to always be very respectful of where each parent is in their own personal journey with this because we all started somewhere. So when I did ask, “What do you mean by, you know, bad school or sacrificing?” It immediately went to defense and saying that “schools are poorly funded, and as a result, you know, public education is just bad everywhere. I have to really pay attention to test scores, even though I know that they're related to race and class.” And it kind of stopped there. It didn't go into this whole, uh, interesting philosophical conversation that I was hoping for. You know, I still think that it's a valid question because I know for myself it's one that I had to personally explore

Courtney: I know we hear a lot of people talking about their mother in laws, or good friends, really challenging parenting choices. And this sacrifice thing was really huge, as if this is almost a selfish indulgence of your progressive liberal values. Right? that you're doing this to kind of, signal your virtue, and somehow your child is gonna pay the price for your terrible, terrible decision.

Andrew: right? If you want to drive a Prius to signal your virtue, fine. But don't don't sacrifice your kids (laughter)

Denise: All those conversations inside of my nuclear family, sometimes even though we've made the choice and we're in our second year of this and we're basically on the same page. But we still have moments of conversation when there's a challenge that arises and those questions come up of, Are we still doing the right thing? And is this a “social justice thing” that is more personal agenda rather than thinking about my family. But I reject that whole heartedly because again, going back to the beginning of our conversation, when I question what I think education is about and what it is, I want my kid to get out of going through school for 14 years or whatever it’s that I need him to be able to relate to many different types of people, have empathy in the world,

Andrew: I mean, I think it's hard to do that now, right? Like imagine the world that our kids will enter once they enter adulthood, which will be even more diverse, even more interconnected around the world the skills that they will need are so much more found right now in sharing space with people because that's what their lives are gonna look like.

Courtney: I want to sort ask why would it be bad if you are making your kid live your values? You know, like I don't know how to raise kids, in general, but also, I don't really know how to raise kids where I'm not modelling my behavior. So when I tell them to get off their screens as I'm texting you guys about getting this podcast together like I'm sort of modeling things, right, so now that they are sort of snarky 13 and 15 year olds they're like, “OK, we’ll get off when you are.” right? And so you know, “Okay, we’ll get social justice when you do, because you put us in these, you know, white, privileged, segregated schools.

Andrew: What's what's the point of raising kids if you're not trying to impart some values or, you know, help them navigate how to be a human being? If you view your role as a parent as solely keeping your child alive and giving them as many opportunities as possible, I think you're missing the point.

Denise: I do observe that parents feel that they can separate their social justice causes with parenting, for instance, through volunteering or donating and that that will satisfy those feelings that you want to feel like you're making a difference or you're doing something good in the world. And I guess maybe the point being that for me they're completely collapsed. And, while I don't have any grandiose ideas that I'm gonna, you know, necessarily change anything. I can at least try to raise my son the way that I think, you know, I would like him to be as a functioning adult. And hopefully that would make a little dent.

Courtney: You know, I was just gonna say I also feel like making choices that, you know, affect our whole family, that is something we do all the time, right? But choosing to not support a system that is based in racism, we’re not fixing it by sending my two kids to, you know, a place where they're the only or one of a small handful of white kids. We're not saving the world, and we're not curing racism. But I'm teaching them how you don't support a racist system, at least in the ways that we can, right now, I don't know. Give them an awareness of how their actions and their relationship to the world, you know, is complicity or not in supporting those systems.

Andrew: Totally. I mean, it's another thing that you're doing for your kids, you know, you teach them to recycle, that them putting that can in the recycling bin does not solve the planet's problems, But everybody does their little piece and everybody contributes their little bit. Maybe it's a slightly different scale than recycling, but it's similar (laughter)

Courtney: You are kind of talking about the trash heap of American education system.

Andrew: Ya, but nobody's like, “Oh my God, I can't believe you make your recycle.”

Denise: Yeah, no, I think...

Andrew: your kids, you know, their ability to throw things in the trash just because of your good parenting. I think that's the line People often draw right like, they're willing to view their own actions as an important part of the herd in a number of places, but then feel like somehow with how they raise their kids or what opportunities they have their kids or any of that, that that should be separate, not viewed in the same light. And I think that's a problem.

Courtney: We can think of our actions as contributing to a whole in, you know, voting or recycling, right, or what car we choose to put on the road. But we're not going to think about that in terms of our parenting choices.

Denise: Yeah, so I know I'm gonna botch this. This is not an exact quote, but I know Nicole Hannah-Jones had said that, in essence, she obviously loves her daughter with all her heart. But, she doesn't think that her daughter is more deserving or more special than any other child, and that if a school isn't good enough for her daughter than it's not good enough for anybody's kids. And I think when I either read that of her say that, it struck me like lightning because I thought, yeah, that is so profound because we each as individual parents, and we live in a very individualistic society, we do tend to think that our child is the best thing ever. But in reality, as special as I may think my son is, he really isn't any more special than anybody else. And that helped me come reorient my thinking on this topic.

Courtney: Yeah, I mean, it's sort of the heavy lift for those of us who care about school integration, right? Like our sales pitch is, “Come on! You're not special!”

Andrew: Right, get over it.

Courtney: It's hardly an effective rallying cry. (Break) As we're talking about sacrificing our kids for our social justice values. We've talked about how it's not really a sacrifice. We've talked about the ways in which it is, actually, you know, you get things out of this experience, right? Yet, there actually are sacrifices. I think there are some schools that are, you know, “hidden gem” kind of schools where these miracles happen every day in integrating spaces. But I'll tell you, my experience was nowhere near that. Our elementary school, I think we had, like, four principles when my kids were there. There were overflowing trash cans. Very infrequently were there field trips, if they happened. I mean, it was not what any Progressive parents would want for their kids. That was a sacrifice, right, because we could have had all that.

Andrew: So why'd you do it?

Courtney: Because none of that really matters. Not in the long term,

Andrew: Because this is not a sacrifice.

Courtney: Yeah, it's a prioritization.

Andrew: Ya.

Courtney: That's right.

Denise: No matter what path we choose, there's going to be an upside and a downside I mean for anything, right?

Courtney: That’s right.

Andrew: There are trade offs with everything. What are the things that you value most? And that's, you know, what do you value most for your kid and what do you value most for the society that you live in? And I mean, I think people think of those things as often in conflict, but I don't think they are.

Courtney: Okay. I can't think of a better way to end this podcast. (break)

Andrew: These are clearly not easy conversations and these ideas require time. You just have to sort of sit with them for a while. So hopefully this one helps. I love Denise’s point about the importance of stepping into a school. So often this smog thing that we talk about allows us, or maybe even encourages us to ignore a school without really knowing anything about it, let us just write a school off. And so that's why the Integrated School’s Two Tour Pledge is so important. Courtney, tell us.

Courtney: This is actually one of the things that I love most, and it was one of the first things we did as Integrated Schools. It's a pledge that parents sign and they're committing to touring two schools that serve mostly black and brown kids. Just stepping foot inside, like you don't have to commit to attending. You don't have to commit to anything but stepping foot inside, and I think that's really, really important, there's a lot that we can't just unsee. But the two tour pledge also commits parents to asking questions around, you know, meaningful diversity at the schools that already were on their Excel spreadsheets for kindergarten. So, is that school that all the playground moms are talking about, Does that school reflect the demographics of the city? Those kinds of questions I think you're really important to ask of the, you know, “good schools.” Other parts of this pledge commit parents to really looking for two lovely things about these schools that they tour and talking to their friends about those two lovely things. So this is, you know, another kind of like taking back the playground,

Andrew: right? You don't have to love everything about the school, but you have to go in and be on the lookout for things that are good and then tell people about those things that are good. It's one little thing you can do to help push back against the smog.

Courtney: That’s right. Yes. So? So sign the pledge.

Andrew: Go to the website. Integratedschools.org. You can sign up to take the pledge. We got resources to help you do it better. I think it's one of the one of the best things that integrated schools does. So definitely go and check it out. Courtney, our podcast went live last week. Um, the response, I would say, has surprised us a bit.

Courtney: Okay, so I actually had zero expectations. Like I had no idea what this was gonna do. Um, but it did more than whatever it was I was thinking

Andrew: A lot of people have downloaded these episodes.

Courtney: A lot. It's terrifying and super exciting.

Andrew: It is. It's awesome. It's really exciting to think about a bunch of you out there engaging with these topics. Um, it's also totally terrifying. Um, and it makes me all the more sort of, acutely aware of all the ways that we're gonna screw this up along the way. So dear listeners, we are relying on you to call us out. Let us know what you like. Let us know what you don't. Where are our blind spots, What are we missing? Shoot us an email. Let us know. Hello@integratedschools.org. Even better, record us a voice memo and email it to us. Let us know you're thinking after listening to the episode, and we can use some of that on upcoming episodes.

Courtney: We've already gotten some great feedback. So, monsterisle, whoever you are, on iTunes wrote, “The honesty of the guests made me examine my biases and behavior in regards to how I engage with my kid's education. Thank you. Thank you, Monsterisle. Keep the reviews and ratings coming and stay tuned. We have a lot more great episodes.

Andrew: See you next time