S12E17 – Reflections on Season 12

S12E17 - Reflections on Season 12

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Reflections on Season 12. Val, we made it to the end of another season: Season 12. We are wrapping up with this episode, and we thought we'd just take a little time to reflect on some of the big ideas that we considered over the course of this season, and then hear some voice memos from listeners. So…

Val: Yes. When we entered this school year, the world was a little unsettled, and–

Andrew: Very unsettled, in fact!

Val: Right! I don't know that I imagined it would become more unsettled, but, um, it has. And it has for a lot of people.

Andrew: Yeah, thinking back to the beginning of the season, I don't know if back then I, I would have anticipated just how sustained that feeling of instability would be.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: And that we could, you know, find ourselves here still feeling really uncertain about the future, and still feeling like the, the world is in, in quite a good bit of turmoil.

Val: I know. And to add onto that, I have a kid graduating, Andrew!

Andrew: I know. That is crazy.

Val: Right?

Andrew: Done. He turned 18.

Val: Done high school. And so, there's been just a, a lot when you think about, like, school and education and, and the world this season. And, and yet, uh, we managed to, to pull off another banging season.

Andrew: Ahh! We did, we did!

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: We had some incredible guests over the course of the season and some really great conversations. What are, what are some of, like, the big ideas that stick out to you when you think about the conversations we had this season?

Val: Yeah. I think one big idea that, um, sticks out to me is belonging.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And how that can look, how it should look, and how we can improve that sense of belonging for everyone. I feel like several of our guests, from their lens, talked about belonging as a major factor in the health of schools and our communities.

Andrew: Yeah, we heard it in the second episode of the season from, from your good friend Byron Sanders, who, you know, talked about of those, those third spaces. You know, we talked about the challenges to public education and kids go to, go to a lot of places between school and going home. And how do we create those kind of spaces that really focus on belonging? We talked about belonging with respect to the disability community, and we had Emily Ladau on.

Val: Mm-hmm

Andrew: Demystifying Disability, which was another really powerful conversation.

Val: And we've talked about the ways in which we could do better at making sure that everyone belongs, right? Because we are not perfect at this by any stretch. And we need folks like our guests to help point out, like, "Hey, this is how we can make all students feel a sense of belonging, wherever they go."

Andrew: Yeah. Another one of the sort of the big, big themes to me is sort of like the, the power of conversations and the power of having those conversations across lines of difference, whether that's, race or class or ideology. We had Keri Rodriguez from the National Parents Union on to talk about their work advocating for a Students Bill of Rights.

And, uh, certainly, you know, it was an organization that, that I have had my issues with, um, but felt like it was important as another organization that cares about the institution of public education to have on and to, you know, talk about the importance of that work. Which led us straight into our first certified genius of the season.

Val: Yeah!

Andrew: Dr. Loretta Ross, who came on to talk about her book: "Calling In".

Val: Yeah, and I quote Dr. Loretta Ross at least once a week, and I've recommended her book many times. I think what she gave me, are not only the tools to continue to wanna engage in these conversations, but an understanding that I did not have to fix it all on my own, and that we all have a role to play. And if it is rooted in community, we'll all have that support that we need to continue to play that role.

And that felt empowering because, you know, you look around, there's a lot to do.

Andrew: Uh, yes. No shortage of work!

Val: It's, it's a lot to do, and if you are one that wants to fix any of these problems, you wanna fix all the problems!

Andrew: Right

Val: And nothing feels settled. Because I am confident that in the time that I have been your co-host, I have signed up for seven gazillion initiatives to do once my kids graduate. Like, every episode, I'm like, "Oh, I need to do that, too!" Right? And so knowing that that can be done in community, with support really matters.

Which makes me want to ask you to talk about how you ended 2025 at Integrated Schools' Face-to-Face Convening.

Andrew: Yeah. Late, in December. a bunch of Integrated Schools folks got together for our very first in-person gathering.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Folks who I’d never seen outside of their little Zoom boxes, finally seeing in person. And, and definitely was a, you know, a huge reminder of the power of gathering in person, of seeing each other face to face, of sharing space and sharing meals with each other. And, yeah, it was, was really inspiring, particularly, you know, in a, in a moment where it felt like a lot of things were not going our way. As a–

Val: Yeah

Andrew: –movement committed to school integration, to be in community with a bunch of brilliant folks who are all committed to this cause, who are all sharing space together and, and focused on this ultimate goal of an education system that actually serves all of our kids.

Yeah, that certainly sustained me through, through the dark periods of the winter.

Val: Yeah. Yeah! And, and that wasn't the only community that you joined. You were actually on location–

Andrew: Yeah

Val: –here in North Carolina, even though I couldn't make it. And so, not only did you have the Integrated Schools community, but you, you met with a, a community of educators and other community members.

Andrew: Yeah, Color of Education Conference in Raleigh, back in October was an amazing experience and, and felt, I felt very grateful to get to be part of that community. That, a whole bunch of educators from all over the country came together. But it felt like a, it felt a bit like a family reunion, because everybody was friendly and committed to educational justice, and learning and, just a, a very special occasion.

You also went on a trip this year!

Val: I did!

Andrew: We didn't get audio from that trip itself, but we got to talk to one of your students about it,

Logan in our episode Legacy and Community: Bridging Generations Through History.

Val: That was amazing! So, um, I had an opportunity to go to Montgomery and Selma, Alabama, with some students, and it was a transformational experience for all of us. And it was so powerful to see, like through a young person's eyes, things that they hadn't learned, that they hadn't been taught in school, and about why they felt it was so important that young people are involved in the conversation.

I think that is so inspiring, to know that there are people of all generations who are committed to knowing the truth, responding in a way that allows us to make the world a better place.

And I think what has been really powerful in this season as well is that we did have conversation around policies and the policymakers and how they are impacting our work through two episodes - Staying Power with Dr. Danielle Wingfield, was the first one that I'm like, "Woman, if you have not received your invitation to be a genius yet, it is coming!"

Andrew: She was amazing. Yeah, wrote about the resurgence of massive resistance and kind of made these really powerful historical ties to the things we see today like resistance to public education, fights over curriculum, parental rights, school privatization, those sorts of things. And how these things that are with us today have really been with us for a long time.

Val: And, and we didn't stop there. We heard from Dr. Mara Tieken, Spatial Injustice: School Closures as a Form of Educational Redlining. And it was my first time thinking about spatial injustice in that way.

Andrew: Yeah, that was a super powerful episode and, this raft of school closures that, that–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –we’re seeing across the country. So many cities are dealing with school closures, and she really helped us see where maybe there are times where a school might need to close, but so often the promises that are made by districts, around what's gonna be achieved by school closures don't actually come to fruition. And what we see undoubtedly around the country is that the schools that are most often closed are schools largely full of Black and Brown kids, are schools–

Val: Yeah

Andrew: –full of students facing poverty and, there's no, like, race neutrality in the ways that we go about closing schools.

I just saw an article this week that this is not a problem unique to any particular area, that the whole country is experiencing.

Val: Hmm.

Andrew: A decline in, the birth rate, a decline in fertility.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: You know, even before the pandemic, but certainly after the pandemic, there are just fewer kids. And so if there are fewer kids, there are fewer kids to be going to schools, and we are gonna have to confront that.

And being thoughtful about the ways we confront it feels like a really powerful lesson to take from the episode with Dr. Tieken.

Val: Yeah, this season, there were some things that were unexpected, and it felt important to be responsive in those moments. There were ICE raids around the country, and some that got the most attention because of the two tragic deaths of Renée Good and Alex Pretti was the city of Minneapolis.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: There is a chapter of Integrated Schools in Minneapolis, and you were able to actually hear from the community on the ground trying to support young people, and their families, during this time.

Andrew: Yeah, that was certainly one of the most powerful episodes, maybe not even just of the season, but of the whole podcast. It was our first time having a monolingual Spanish speaker and a real-time translator to help facilitate that conversation. But it felt really important to be able to elevate the voices of those most impacted by those ICE raids, and really kind of try to get into the lives of the people on the ground as they were living through this atrocity.

And I mean, that episode, I think, left us both in tears at some point.

Val: Yeah, absolutely.

Andrew: And also, you know, certainly left me in awe of the strength and the resilience of the community in Minneapolis. Their ability to band together, to support each other, to build new infrastructure to help support each other.

And, uh, yeah, I mean, it was, it was certainly depressing, but it was also inspiring in many ways.

Val: Yeah. I still get goosebumps thinking about it because an elementary school student shouldn't have to have an emergency plan if “My parent doesn't come home” because they've been detained or deported. And yet there are thousands of children who are living that reality and, and they deserve better.

Andrew: Yeah. For sure.

Val: And, what we learned from another episode is that this is historic. This is not the first time that this has happened. So we had Maria Dolores Águila on to talk about her book, Seeds of Resistance: The Lemon Grove Legacy.

Andrew: Yeah. Maria Dolores Águila, her, her book, a Sea of Lemon Trees, brought the story of the Lemon Grove Incident to, to life in a young adult novel in just an incredibly powerful way.

And the Lemon Grove incident was something that I hadn't known much about beforehand, but, you know, was the, really the first desegregation case. Went all the way to the California Supreme Court back in 1931. So, you know, 23 years before Brown v. Board happened, there was a community organizing who came together, who supported each other. Much as was happening just several months ago in Minneapolis, came together to support each other and to fight for justice and, you know, to be reminded that the battles feel new, but people have been fighting these battles for generations.

Val: Right.

Andrew: And to kind of have a, a young adult novel's view into one of those fights from many years ago was very powerful.

Val: Yeah, I think that's a great point because, you know, we, we've only lived the life that we have, right now in this moment. And if we're not students of history, it would seem like we're doing this for the first time, right? And that no one else has experienced this.

But for better and worse, there are people who have walked this path before, and who have shown us the way, both with successes and, and maybe temporary perceived failures.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: But the work has been done, and so we can, we can lean on history, and those who came before us,to help show us the way.

Andrew: And certainly one of the people who was instrumental in that history was the great Thurgood Marshall.

Val: That's right!

Andrew: As, as you so kindly pointed out, I quote at least twice an episode. But, um,

Val: That's right. You do.

Andrew: We brought the season to a close with Cecilia Marshall, Thurgood Marshall's granddaughter, um,

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Reflecting on his legacy and the work that he has done from her perspective, and just such an incredible conversation to hear, you know, not just about the work he did, but also about what he was like just as a grandpa.

Val: What I think was fantastic that Ms. Marshall reminded us was that many of his most powerful quotes come from dissents.

Andrew: Yeah

Val: The things weren't actually going in our favor. [Val chuckles]

Andrew: Right.

Val: He was dissenting, right? Because things weren't going in our favor, but we're using those words as fuel now to keep us going.

And so….You know, I, I think that's important at this time where it feels like… we're taking a lot of Ls.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: You know?

Andrew: The pendulum has swung away from our work. For sure.

Val: It feels like we're taking a lot of losses, right? And that can be discouraging. But there are folks, as we have highlighted throughout this season, who understand the power of staying together, understand the power of dissenting, understand the power of doing what you can in your community, because that is what you can control, right?

Not letting your link in the chain go, as Dr. Ross has taught us. And so,

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I'm, I'm, I'm exhaling because that feels, um, that feels hopeful, and we do try to find hope.

Andrew: Even in dark times, for sure.

Yeah! Yeah, lots of powerful conversations over the course of the season. So grateful to all of our guests for coming on and for sharing and for all the conversations we were fortunate enough to have. And some other folks were inspired by some of the conversations as well.

So, let's take a listen to Claire from Atlanta.

Claire: Hi y'all. My name is Claire Dozier, and I am in Atlanta, Georgia, and I just finished listening to the Spatial Injustice episode of your podcast. And I just felt like in listening to this episode that y'all were just, like, reading my mind and just explaining all of the things that we have been talking about and facing here in Atlanta.

Um, so a little context. I am a White mama in a multiracial family raising monoracial Black and biracial Black and White daughters. My eldest daughter is a kindergartner at our local neighborhood elementary school in Atlanta Public Schools.

We chose our neighborhood school very much on purpose. Very much in alignment with our values and a lot of the things that y'all talk about all the time at Integrated Schools. And she's had the best, most wonderful kindergarten year. I just left my conference with her teacher. It's just been great for all the, all, for all the reasons that y'all advocate, um, at Integrated Schools.

And so, we live in a Black neighborhood in the heart of Atlanta and our school is closing. Our school is closing.

APS is closing 16 majority Black and Brown schools over the next two years. The board voted in December, and we tried to organize. We went to school board meetings. We held up signs that said "Black Schools Matter,” um, “Equity, you know, is over efficiency."

And, um, all of that fell on deaf ears. My husband actually got an op-ed placed in The Atlanta Journal Constitution about why the closure of our elementary school in particular should be reconsidered.

And, yeah, just when y'all talked about the devastation of school closures and the conversation always being about “saving money” and how those factors aren't looked at through a racial justice and spatial justice perspective, all of that just 100% resonated with what we're seeing here.

And it was both affirming because it's like listening to it, I was like, "I'm not crazy!" But just also still feeling like this grief of being in this process.

I would love for y'all to do some kind of follow-up, maybe an episode that's like, "So your school's closing. Now what?" Because our elementary school is not just an elementary school, it's co-located with our community center, here in one of the Blackest and most under-resourced neighborhoods in Atlanta, but yet a vibrant community and a community with deep roots, and generations of connectedness here.

Appreciate all the work you do. This is my first time ever doing something like this in response to a podcast, but it just, like I said, just resonated so deeply with everything we're experiencing here.

Um, thank you so much.

Andrew: Thank you, Claire.

Val: Thank you, Claire. Um, it, it warms our heart to hear that your kindergartner had a fantastic school year.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And it breaks our heart that, that has to change for your family and the other families in the community. We wanna thank you for your advocacy, for standing up and making your voice heard. Because once you advocate in that way the first time, the rest of it is easy. You're like, "Oh, no, no, no, no!"

Andrew: Yep.

Val: Like, "Oh, no, no, no, no. We're gonna have to talk about this at school board. I need to write an op-ed." You are gonna be on fire.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: As we learned, um, all of it will be for, for good. It might not be for, that immediate good, but what you have now, Claire, is you can talk to your family about what you were doing and what you were trying to do and why it was important.

Andrew: Right. Like a-a-any, any opportunity to organize, particularly in community to bring people together feels worthwhile. And,

Val: Yeah

Andrew: particularly in these times where it feels like the cards are stacked against us in so many ways, there are lots of opportunities to find local issues and, and try to advocate for them. And it sounds like, you know, they weren't able to save this school, but the relationships built, the opportunity to come together and organize, that’s always worthwhile energy.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Certainly if, if listeners have ideas about, uh, what a follow-up le- episode like that might look like, who we should talk to, we are always looking for those sorts of suggestions. You can email them to podcast@integratedschools.org.

Val: Claire, I mean, you might have made yourself a guest. [Val chuckles]

Andrew: That's right.

Val: Because you said you wanna talk to somebody, their school's closed, now what? Um, we're gonna learn... We can learn from you, Claire!

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Mm-hmm

Andrew: Claire was not the only one feeling the call to speak up, uh, in this moment. Let's take a listen to Jessica.

Jessica: Hello, Dr. Val and Andrew. This is Jessica. I'm here in Wilmington, North Carolina, and I'm a longtime fan, first-time caller. Wanna thank you so much for everything that you give to the podcast, which has really been transformative for me. I'm always so excited to share it.

We are a White, middle-class presenting family. I've been so thankful for the “show up, listen, speak out, stay put” formula that keeps it simple. And very much for many years in my school, was at the, kind of, show up and listen phase. And now I'm kind of realizing I'm, I've reached the speak out phase.

Because we recently had an administration change that quietly dissolved our PTA. And my first thought was like, "Oh, PTAs." I, like, I haven't really been involved because I didn't wanna get into a situation where I was one of the small group of, like, middle-class White ladies directing that.

And so, I was kinda happy to keep that at a distance. But once I saw that it had been dissolved by a new administration and started to, like, talk with families and hear that, like me, they were kind of, they were missing the things that the parent organization was helping with.

They were saying things like, "I thought there would be more fun events," and, "I thought there would be more ways to get involved." Or, "I reached out to the school and nobody got back to me." Uh, or, "They got back to me and they just said no. Like, ‘we don't, we don't have that opportunity right now.’" And I was, like, "Oh!" Like, I, I didn't know that the, the parent organization could just be dissolved.

And so, in losing that organization, we lost not only fun events, but we really lost a seat at the table where decisions are made. And all of a sudden I saw us families no longer being treated like primary stakeholders, but subjects. So, like, we were being an involved family if we were following through with what the administration was telling us to do. It became very, like, top-down and families had no voice.

We started hearing a lot of this kind of deficit thinking on families that, you know, families can't, families won't, families don't have time. Our school population is 42% African American, 42% Hispanic and Latino, 9% White, and 6% Native American, Asian, and multiracial.

So all of a sudden, I made this complete turnaround to be now the advocate FOR a parent organization that meaningfully represents the families in our school.

I would love to hear a podcast episode on deficit thinking. Fighting deficit thinking, phew, man! I like, I, I think I have been preserved as a White woman in my life so far, in most environments I'm encouraged and I'm affirmed.

But being in this environment where I'm now part of a group that is seen through this deficit lens is so hard. So hard to, hard to experience, but then also hard to fight back because they're very much using the deficit lens out of compassion and charity. Like, “We are doing you a favor.”

So any kind of podcast episodes on asset thinking or deficit thinking or fighting deficit thinking.

Anyway. I love you. I love the work that you're doing. Thank you so much for the tireless hours that you put into it. I can't wait for whatever comes next, really. Thanks. Bye.

Andrew: Thank you, Jessica!

Val: Thank you, Jessica!

Andrew: For a long time at Integrated Schools, we said, "Show up, shut up, stay put."

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And I think, you know, Val, you encouraged us to add the sort of show up, listen, stay put, and then speak up. And I think–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –this is a time where we need a lot of people to speak up. You know,

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: The institution of public education is under attack. We need folks to speak up in favor of it and, and then to speak up for things that make public education stronger. And I think certainly there are all sorts of issues with PTAs as a structure and, you know, point listeners back to our episode, "PTA So White," from a couple seasons ago.

But, there is also real power in parents coming together to organize for what's important to them. You know, this is something Ms. Marshall talked about in the last episode about, craving this sort of sense of, of community empowerment, community members coming together to talk–

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: –about the issues that are going on.

You know, if we think about public schools as, as little miniature democracies, we need to be able to come together and talk. And,

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: I think, I think Jessica's voice memo reminds us of that.

Val: I wanna, celebrate Jessica. She said, you know, she was a, she was a listener for a long time. She was in that space where she was, like, listening and learning, and she has moved to the speak up phase. And I just wanna applaud that because whenever you take that step to speak up, it deserves celebration, right?

I think there are times where you might feel like you, you don't know the right thing to say, or maybe it's not your time to speak, but whenever you feel called, do it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And it won't be right every single time.

Andrew: Right.

Val: But, again, you get better with that as well. Do you know how many times we mess up on this podcast, y'all? [Andrew laughs]

A lot!

Andrew: That's true. Thank God for editing. And as you said, you know, like once, once you start, once you get over that first hurdle, then, then you're sort of unstoppable, and you will keep speaking up, you will keep–

Val: That's right

Andrew: –finding ways to advocate and doing that in community. So yeah. Thank you, Jessica, for sharing that.

And just one more from Erin in San Francisco.

Erin: Hi, Val and Andrew. My name is Erin and I'm a White mom in San Francisco. And I wanted to call in and just share a moment of joy from my daughter's integrated elementary school. So last week they had a school dance performance where every class got to perform one number. And the school has three different language tracks, and it was so cool to see some of the choices that the dance teacher made highlighting and integrating kids from different cultural backgrounds that are represented in the school population.

Um, so for example, there was a, a Cantonese language class that danced to a '90s hip hop song. One of the Spanish immersion classes danced to a Chinese pop song. One of the English classes danced to some traditional hula music. There were Spanish songs, there were English songs.

Um, it was just really diverse and really fun. And the whole performance closed out with all of the classes together dancing to this really upbeat Spanish, uh, kind of oldie pop hit, and it was just so fun. I was filled with so much joy, you know, as I looked around at the audience. And, you know, there's parents, and grandparents, and siblings, and aunts and uncles, and all these extended family, and caregivers, and staff, and students, uh, and, and so many different races, and classes, and linguistic, and cultural, backgrounds, all in one huge dance party. And everybody with just smiles on their faces jumping around to this really fun song. It was amazing.

There was just so much joy there, and those are the moments that really affirm my decision to send my kids to this school, rather than the one that all of our friends from preschool went to.

And I think, you know, that would've been easier in some ways, especially for me as a parent. Um, but I would never have had the experience that I just described if I went to a school that was full of other families that look a lot like mine and come from very similar backgrounds to mine.

So, I just wanted to share that moment of joy and affirm that there's a lot of positive things that come out of making what can sometimes be a tough decision.

Thanks a lot.

Andrew: Thank you, Erin

Val: Thank you, Erin! I think a lot of us are introduced to various cultures through, like, cultural practices, and I think that’s something that every parent can do, every caregiver can do just at home, right? Look in your community, see what is happening that is different from what you normally would experience, and tell your kids you're going on an adventure to meet different people, right? And learn different things because the world is full of people who have so many beautiful ways to contribute.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think Erin's, Erin's reflection on the joy of it is, is certainly one of the appeals of sending your kid to an integrated school, you know? It may not be the choice that your neighbors make. It may not be the choice that your in-laws think is the right choice. And there is so much to be gained from making that choice, not just for your kid, not just for your community, but sort of enriching your whole family's lives. So thank you for sharing that, Erin.

Closing us out with a little bit of a moment of joy, a reflection on this whole season. You know, we, we have been in tough times, and we have found ways to find joy, to find community through conversation, through learning, through talking about these topics.

Again, just so grateful for listeners out there, so grateful for all of our guests for coming on, and for participating in these conversations.

Val: Yeah, I don't think they realize how much they do for us.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: They are such a gift, not only to us, but to the listeners, and to the world, and to their, their circles of influence. And it is so sustaining, and we have needed that level of sustenance, this year in particular.

Andrew: For sure.

Val: And we cannot tell you what's gonna happen even two weeks from now. We genuinely do not know. But what we do know is that there are people who are committed to staying together, who are committed to integrated public schools for young people everywhere. Who are committed to equity. Who are committed to justice.

And that, my friend, is, is why I keep going.

Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. That's certainly what sustains me, these conversations, our guests, our community, all of the folks committed to school integration who are out there, the chapter members and our network contacts, and the folks at Integrated Schools who run the Book Club, and The Integrator newsletter. If you’re not signed up for The Integrator newsletter, there will be a link in the show notes. It’s great, once a month, um, all sorts of great information about what's happening in Integrated Schools.

And we wanna hear from you! What, what would you like to hear next season? We'll be spending the summer working on episodes for the fall. What do you wanna hear? What's on your mind? I know school closures is big in a lot of places. We'll try to get a, a follow-up episode on that.

But what else is going on for you listeners? Let us know. Send us a voice memo, speakpipe.com/integratedschools, S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E.com/integratedschools, or just record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us, podcast@integratedschools.org. We wanna know what's on your mind. What would you like us to talk about next season?

Val: Friend, I don't know if I'm tired or if it's all hitting me, but, um, starting next season I'll have a, a kid in college!

Andrew: Yeah. That's crazy.

Val: That is crazy. And I have another one that's a senior, and so just to our listeners, like they say it happens fast and it, it does not feel that way when you're living it. But it'll come, and your babies will be okay. [Val holding back tears]

I'm just, I'm grateful [Val gives a happy sigh] to have spent the last few years of his schooling with you and in community with you and... [Val exhales] I didn't mean to do this, y'all. I'm so sorry, but . . .

Andrew: Yep. Big changes. It is a big transition time for a lot of folks, and I think the only thing we can do is keep coming together and having conversations and talking about it. So,

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: If listeners, if you appreciate that, we would appreciate your support. You can go to integratedschools.org, click on the big red donate button, or go to patreon.com/integratedschools and join our Patreon. Both great ways to support this work and support conversations that we continue to try to have as the world shifts underneath us, as our lives change and grow, as our kids keep getting older, we keep finding power of conversation, to be sustaining

Val: Thank you all. And thank you, Andrew

Andrew: Thank you. This was a, a big season. Lots going on, and I'm so grateful to have been in it all with you, Val, as I try to know better and do better

Val: Until next time.