S9E16 – Reflections on Season 9

Season 9 finale

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Reflections on Season Nine.

Dr. Val: Wow!

Andrew: We did it, Val! Season Nine.

Dr. Val: You know, I cannot believe that we are ending another season. I am so grateful for all of the time we get to spend together.

Andrew: Me too, me too. Yes, it has been a gift. We started all the way back in September. This is the 16th episode of the season, and we have covered a lot of ground, and so I thought we'd just take a few moments to reflect on the ground we've covered and then hear from some listeners who sent in some voice memos.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Our sweet 16. I have a hard time picking favorites. Especially, like, with Michael Jackson videos, right?

[Andrew laughs]

Music videos. It's like, favorite when he's dancing with a group versus favorite when he's primarily solo. Right? And so, I'm gonna ask you, I know all of these are your favorite episodes, but is there one that often comes to mind when you think about season nine?

Andrew: I mean, we covered so much ground and there's so much great stuff in season nine.

I think the one that often comes back to my mind, uh, “PTA So White” with Dr. Brittany Murray was, was really powerful. I think, you know, PTA was, like, a topic that we had been meaning to cover for a long time, that people were constantly asking about, “Well, like what do I do about my PTA?”

And I think it was nice to finally get into that. Do you have one that sticks out?

Dr. Val: No, cuz I refused to pick a favorite.

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: You just made me pick a favorite! That’s not fair!

Dr. Val: I did, I did. But I signed so many best friend contracts this season that I cannot in good conscience pick a favorite. But I think one thing that stands out to me is we started with Heather McGhee talking about solidarity and I think each of the episodes spoke to our attempts at solidarity with groups that may have not been represented on the podcast before. Perspectives that were not necessarily shared in conversation with us. And so, I think we were really intentional about not just talking about solidarity, but trying to live that out in the guests and the episodes.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, anything about “Catherine and the Saviors”? Um, Catherine being a low income parent, you know, I think class is something that comes up a lot and there's probably another dozen episodes that we need to do on it. There's still plenty to be explored with that.

And then, you know, the disability conversation we had with Joyner and Shubha was so powerful and also so eye-opening. And yeah, I think we, we were really intentional about trying to find voices that had not been necessarily featured. Conversations that we knew we probably should have had, but had not yet gotten around to. And so, did a lot of that in this season.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I think the other thing that really stands out to me from this season, because, you know, the first season you invited me here I had a lot of White supremacy headaches.

Andrew: That's true.

Dr. Val: I think this season felt like I didn't have to sit in that frustration because we always left with some action steps.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And so I've, I left feeling as if there was something that I could do in the face of this new knowledge and I didn't just have to sit with it.

Andrew: Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I think, I mean, we covered some very heavy topics, right? School safety, disability, Becky and Toutoule grappling with like, “When do you show up? When do you speak up?” And even school lunch which, like, the history of was, was very heavy and kind of, you know, opened my eyes to yet another place that, that White supremacy is, kind of, rearing its head in our society.

But I do think that focus on action steps, since that was one of the things we focused on this season, we tried to end every episode (I think we may have forgotten one episode in there), but we tried to end every episode with action steps.

And thinking about that, you know, I think racial justice work in general, certainly the fight for school integration is a long and drawn out battle. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: And so finding ways to recharge, to feel recommitted to the effort is really important and I think, I think the action steps really helped with that.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I would love to hear from some listeners, kind of what they took from this, and their own ideas about maybe what we missed and what we can grapple with moving forward.

Andrew: Yes. Listener voice memos. They're certainly one of my favorite parts of this whole enterprise. We got some great ones for this episode and we get some, all the time. So, if anybody's out there thinking, oh man, I missed the deadline. There is no deadline. We will always listen to your voice memos.

Dr. Val: We will always listen to your voice memos.

I need my co-host to be honest. We need more voice memos! Like, we don't have enough voice memos

Andrew: Never enough voice memos.

Dr. Val: Never enough.

Andrew: Keep sending them, please! Yeah, we can always use more voice memos. So, integratedschools.org. Click on the “send us a voicemail” button on the side of the page, or just email us podcast@integrateschools.org. A voice memo from your phone.

Dr. Val: Some of the big themes that we heard from listeners is even taking steps, taking steps in building relationships with folks. That's, even that one step can be a difficult one because how do we build relationships across difference? And we've told our story before, but it was me reaching out saying, “Hey, how can I be a part of this?” And that is not everyone's personality style. And so, it's not clear how we begin to build these relationships across difference.

Andrew: Yeah we don't have, we don't have a lot of great models for it, either. I mean, I think we have, one of the, certainly one of the hopes of this podcast is to provide not “the model,” but a model of what conversations across difference can look like.

But, but that's not always easy, right? And this is, you know, one version of it. There's lots of other versions of it and that leads us nicely to a voice memo we got from Alex. So let's take us into that.

Alex: Hi, my name is Alex. I'm a White mom from Seattle. Thanks for your episode “Show Up, Listen, Stay Put and Speak Up.” It's an episode I've been waiting for and have needed.

My kid is in kindergarten in the school district that I grew up in, but it's a school that is very different than mine growing up. His school's 5% White, 75% free/reduced lunch, and there are dozens of languages spoken at home. It really is a global, global majority school.

Becky's story resonated with me. When do we advocate? How do we show up? How do we get to know our community? And in particular for me, the challenge has been how do we connect across languages? It's such a heavy lift. When Andrew said most White parents don't think integrating schools would be this hard. Oh, it was so me. I thought it would just be a hidden gem and everything would be roses. But no, it's been really, really difficult.

Our school doesn't have a PTA. We don't have after-school care provided on site. We don't have enrichment activities. And we really don't have a common language to connect. Any advice would be welcomed there. Thank you.

Dr. Val: I appreciate that you and I do not pretend to have all of the answers.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And I think that's important for listeners to understand that they are as much part of figuring this out as any one of us. And, whenever you're trying to be a part of the solution, there's a lot of times you can mess up!

Like, “Man, that sounded like a good idea in 2019!”

[Laughter]

And, you know, and, and, and it crashed and burned in, in a new reality or a new setting. Right? What works in your elementary school might not work in your middle school. Right? And so, I think I wanna encourage Alex. Steps (however messy they are) still important enough to take, right?

And trying to identify, like, smaller pieces of action that can happen that feel important. And so, maybe Alex, your advocacy is helping translate a welcome document for all of the languages that are at the school. Right? That would be cool! To come into a school and see something translated in a language in which I speak.

And so, even if that doesn't mean that Alex is the person making the connection, Alex has put in the work to make sure that every student, family has felt welcomed in that space.

Andrew: Yeah, I like that. I think there's probably also room to, kind of, normalize texting via Google Translate.

Dr. Val: Okay!

Andrew: It's ugly. It doesn't always get your message across exactly, and I feel like the, you know, the effort is worth it. That it's a, it's a good step in the right direction to sort of say, like, “I care enough to try.”

Dr. Val: Yeah! If I'm on the receiving end of any of those efforts, I just feel really grateful that someone tried! Right? And the amount of grace that you have for someone who you see trying, should surpass any nervousness you feel about saying the wrong thing because, you know, just putting it in your perspective, if someone was trying for you, you'd be really happy that they were trying.

So, Alex just try something! And call us back!

Andrew: Let us know how it goes. That's right. Send us another voice memo, for sure. Show up. Listen. Stay put. There, there have been a number of, of episodes that have really landed for audience members. And this one, the disability justice episode, I think, also really landed, but, but also left at least two different listeners feeling like they're ready for a part-two.

So, let's listen to Gina here.

Gina: Hi, this is Gina. I am so glad you guys did a podcast on disability inclusion. That was awesome. But I really think there needs to be a part-two because the guests that you had don't send their kids to public school, for very valid reasons. But I wanted to know if we could talk more about people who do send their kids to public school when their children have a disability and what they can do to improve the system for everyone. And how to reconcile having a child in special education, which is very individualized versus the, “Oh, this is beneficial for all.” So that would be amazing. Thank you. I love your podcast.

Andrew: And Stevie also called in and had a similar question.

Stevie: Hi, I wanted to say thanks for your episode on the intersections of disability. I am a parent of a five year old who'll be starting public kindergarten in the fall and who is neurodivergent. And just looking to connect with other parents around the intersections of our privilege and my kids' needs for support in school.

I'm hoping you can do a follow-up episode at some point. Love to hear from parents who are navigating the system. What that's like. So I can get ideas for what I can do when my kid is there and maybe some hope. Thank you so much.

Andrew: Yea, and just to be clear, Shubha's kid isn't ready for K-12 yet, but she did say they likely wouldn't be in the public system. And Joyner has used all different types of school, and I believe her youngest is part of the public education system, but is receiving services at home.So, Gina's point is well taken, they are not currently enrolled in public schools and trying to figure out how to navigate that.

What do you think, Val?

Dr. Val: Yeah. One, we should definitely have, “part-twos” of that conversation. And I think this is one of those we're like, “This conversation could have kept going on and on and on.” It was the one that I missed!

Andrew: It was a long one and there was still, yeah, still plenty of ground to cover.

Dr. Val: We are committed on the podcast to public schools and you and I have talked about how, you know, that choice might be difficult sometimes for marginalized parents, parents of color, like. “I hear you Integrated Schools, and yet I need my child to be in the safest place for their, you know, wholeness and spirit, possible.” So, we understand some tension there. And so, I think that's a great push. Like, we push for action steps in this season, next season, pushing like, “What does this change look like in public schools more explicitly?” I think is a, is a good conversation to, to keep centered because we know that public schools are central to our democracy and we need them.

Andrew: For sure. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And like you said earlier, we, we, we don't often have the answers. Uh, I don't know what the answer is to that. I don't have a, a child with a disability. That is not, you know, my lived experience. And so I feel like what I can commit to is being open to the conversation and, you know, figuring out who it is that we should talk to next season to, to really dig into that.

Because there was so much that was so eye-opening about the conversation we had with Shubha and Joiner. And there's definitely more, more conversation to have there. So listeners, if you've got an idea for somebody who would be a great guest to talk about that topic, definitely let us know. podcast@integratedschools.org. We would appreciate it.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I, I think what has come up for me in just listening to that voice memo and thinking about just all of the episodes that we've had this season, is it's hard work! And it's not fast enough. It will never feel fast enough. And I think we have to be honest with ourselves about that. We have aspirations and we have, like, really good intentions, and our own heart tells us, like, “This should be easy,” right?

Andrew: Yeah. You, you see the rightness of it and you think, “Well, geez, like, obviously. This is the right thing–”

Dr. Val: How difficult can this be?!

Andrew: – How can this be so hard?”

Dr. Val: Right. You know, the week that we're recording this episode is the, one year mark of the Robb Elementary School shooting in Texas.

And for many of our listeners, and for folks who connected with me offline, the school safety episode really stuck with them.

Andrew: Yeah. We got a couple of calls about that one, and I want to play this one from Brandy.

Brandy: Hi, Integrated Schools. I am a White mom from Denver. My name is Brandy, and I am calling about your “School Safety: More Than One Dimension” episode. I've listened to it twice in about five days. Thank you, Andrew, Val and Meg, for such an important conversation that is moving, to not just our children's physical safety.

There is so much more involved and the idea of listening to our children and asking them how they feel safe, and what we can do in our schools to create a healthy, safe environment is so important.

More mental health, that feels like a direction that we could go versus higher fences, metal detectors, arming our faculty that just, that feels like we're not trying to solve a problem. We're putting band-aids on.

And to have this conversation out there, it's just eye-opening. And I appreciate all of you. I'm sharing this in my neighborhood groups. I'm share sharing this in my school groups and I just really appreciate you.

We are only as healthy as our most vulnerable, so I hope as a society we can lift everybody up. Thank you all. Take care.

Andrew: Yes! Brandy, we are only as healthy as our most vulnerable. I think that has been, you know, another one of the sort of themes that certainly has run through this season, I think probably runs through a lot of our work is that we are only as healthy as our most vulnerable. That, that we have to be thinking about more than just our own kids.

That we have to be thinking about the, the world that we can create if we are actually caring about everybody's kids.

Dr. Val: So, what, what are you now thinking? Because you had a personal experience, right? Can you update us on your personal experience?

Andrew: Yeah. There still is a lot of conversation here in Denver about school safety and I, I do think there, there are pockets of really helpful, useful, nuanced conversation about it. And there's a LOT of really simplistic, um, you know...

I'm in, I'm in this place right now where if we're talking about one of these topics, something like school safety, if you start your sentence with, “Well, all we need to do is,” or, or “It's simple, we just, whatever,” I, like, I'm instantly tuning you out! Because there are no easy answers to these questions, right? These are all complicated, nuanced topics. There's still, still a group of parents (I think largely White and privileged parents) who are really in favor of– so we put, we put cops back in schools temporarily, and they would like to see that stay.

And, you know, I think it speaks to who is most at risk of cops being in schools. And we know that it's not White kids. That the systems and structures that White families are likely to trust and put their faith in, you know, makes it easier to think about putting cops back in school or fortifying buildings, or, you know, I saw somebody calling for bomb sniffing and drug sniffing dogs in the hallways and random locker searches.

And I understand the extreme reaction to a shooting in a school is you want to do something extreme because it shouldn't happen. And my hope is that, that, you know, through more people engaging with conversations like the one we had with Meg, that there's more of a nuanced conversation that can happen, and that we can actually think about this, you know, safety idea in a much broader context.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Since that episode aired (and I'm sure it's around, an, unfortunately another school shooting), at my son's high school, the young people have always had to enter through metal detectors going into the school. As a parent, since Covid, I believe, we've had to, like, get buzzed in in order to go drop something off at the office.

The new version now is now parents, caregivers, visitors also have to go through the metal detectors. So, like, I had to drop off something my son needed for class. And so, it was go through the metal detectors, sign in, then I had access to the office. Right? And so, um, it's sad! It's sad. And, I think for many parents, even the act of doing that, while there might be a sense of safety, it, it also increases feelings of fear that something is gonna happen, because why else would you need all of this?

It just feels like we are, we're missing the point when it comes to, to solving this problem. And we're not being honest about the conversation that we need to have.

So, it's frustrating. That, that's frustrating.

But, young people give me hope! And so, if you twist my arm, I will say that Epic Theater was my favorite episode. Now, did anybody call in about Epic?

Andrew: Oh, did, did they ever, Val! Lots of people. Let's take a listen to Justin here.

Justin: Hello, my name's Justin Schleider. I am a health teacher in Central New Jersey for fourth, fifth, and sixth graders. This year I really worked on building relationships by asking a boatload of questions. Setting up “Never have I ever” questions, “Would you rather.” Setting up scenarios, talking about othering and belonging. And really hammering home the idea that we all deserve love, simply by being a human.

What I learned this year from the podcast, I loved the Epic Theater Ensemble. I was lucky enough to see them live at the conference that Val threw. It was absolutely amazing. Thank you for all you do. Keep up the good work.

Andrew: And not only was Justin moved but a couple of people from your conference, Val, the Educator Conference for Human Connection that you threw back in March called in.

Dr. Val: Well, it was awesome!

Andrew: Lets take a listen to Lizzie.

Lizzy: Hi, this is Lizzie from Worcester, Mass. I'm a White, non-binary human, who actually does not have kids, but I love listening to the podcast. I am totally in awe of the Epic students and their work that they're doing. I was lucky enough to see them live at Val's conference and that was amazing.

I'm also using your podcast on keeping us safe in schools. I'm using that with my book club along with a podcast from On Being. Anyways, I love the podcast, keep them coming. I can't wait for next season.

Andrew: I’m incredibly jealous that you got to see them live, had them come to your conference. Yeah, I can only imagine.

Dr. Val: Can I say, like, I, I barely saw them because my eyes were full of tears the whole time? They were powerful! And moving, and, you know, I'm connecting to, to us as adults needing to carry the burden and not putting that burden on those young people.

They deserve a young experience where they are not worried about racism and school shootings. And so, to see them stand up and speak not only the words of the adults around them (that can sometimes be super hurtful and harmful) but also speak for themselves, and what they wanted, and what they dreamed for, and, and to challenge us. It, like, it leaves you speechless.

And like I said, I barely saw it ‘cause I was crying the whole time. So, um, they are my favorite. They are, they're my favorite.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. No, I, I share that and I think, you know, that that's certainly a, a voice that we have always felt is important. That we need to hear from students. We need to hear from those most impacted by the school system. And, you know, we featured Epic a couple of times now and certainly will not stop.

They'll be writing pieces this summer. I'm sure there will be great things that come out of that so we can continue to have them show up. And always looking for other ways to find student voice. So if you have great students in your life who have awesome things to say about this, definitely, reach out. Email us. Have them email us. We would love to have more student voice on the podcast.

Dr. Val: Oh my gosh. What about a student takeover? I would love that so much.

Andrew: Well, so, speaking of student takeover, we do have some things planned for this summer, so the feed will not be totally empty this summer.

We're gonna be running some episodes of other podcasts that we really like, so keep an ear out, make sure you hit that follow button so you're not missing any episodes. We're gonna be sharing some episodes from other podcasts that we think you should know about that have shaped us, that have moved our thinking.

And then we have a couple of interns who are working with us this summer on a couple of projects. And I don't wanna say anything about it just yet, but look for those probably near the end of the summer to hit the feed. And then, uh, and then, yeah, we'll be back in September with a whole new season and all new conversations.

Dr. Val: And I think I get to see you, my friend, this summer for the first time, face to face!

Andrew: That’s going to be amazing. I still can't believe it's actually gonna happen.

Dr. Val: Oh, it's gonna happen!

Andrew: In the same physical place. It's gonna be. Yep.

Dr. Val: It's going to happen.

Andrew: Well, yes, listeners, we have been so grateful for your voice memos, for your emails, for all the ways that you show support.

And especially for your support on Patreon, for those of you who are there, patreon.com/integratedschools. If you're not there yet, we would be grateful for you throwing us a few bucks every month to help us keep this podcast going.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I have to say honestly, that knowing that you all are out there and listening and, and letting us know that it's making a difference deeply connects with us and deeply moves us. We believe in this work and we need one another in it. And so, thank you for sharing the podcast. Thank you for asking questions about the podcast. Just, thank you for being part of the community. This would be naught without you.

Andrew: Absolutely. Absolutely. Val, I'm so grateful for a whole other season. A whole year. 16 episodes. So many great conversations. I'm so grateful to get the honor and the opportunity to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time. Until face to face!