S9E12 – School Safety: More Than One Dimension

Dr. Meg Caven

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is School Safety: More Than One Dimension.

Dr. Val: Mmm! So, I will say that when I hear the topic “school safety,” I'm immediately imagining gun violence. Right? We know that it is, unfortunately, all too rampant. That many young people and their caregivers have had to grapple with what it means to go to school and possibly be a victim of gun violence.

It's awful. It's scary. I don't think any of us feel okay with it.

But our title leads me to believe there's something more that we're talking about today.

Andrew: Yeah, I share that same “school safety, I'm immediately thinking about physical safety.” But our guest today encourages us to look beyond just physical safety into these, kind of, broader view of what it means to actually be safe in a school. From social, to spiritual, to safety from criminal justice system, to these broader views of what makes for an environment that feels safe.

Because, no question, we have far too much gun violence in schools. And in terms of the harms that might happen to a student in school, gun violence is probably the least likely when you think about all the other ways that our kids could be harmed in school.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I connect with that because although immediately when we talk about school safety, I might think of gun violence, it's easy to recognize the different ways in which our children can be harmed in school, right? Through curriculum, through other policies, through peer-to-peer interactions or teacher to student interactions, right?

There's lots of opportunity to be harmed in school.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think that broader definition of what it means to be safe in a school is why I'm so excited to bring our guest today on, Dr. Meg Caven. She's a White educational researcher and has been thinking about school safety and writing about school safety. And actually, I think you came across an article she wrote about school safety, which is how this podcast came to be in the first place, right?

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely! I was reading the article and I was like, “I, I wanna hear more from this woman!” because, immediately she expanded my mind about school safety and was very honest in naming race as part of things that we have to consider when we're defining safe spaces for young people.

Andrew: Really excited to share her perspective. I think she brings a focus on the goal of education that is beyond just academic achievement, right? That's like a tool for democracy. That's a, a tool for creating whole people. And so, you know, I find that both inspiring (but also not surprising) that then she takes, like, a really strong equity focus in her work.

And so, looking at school safety (and the ways that we go about trying to achieve that) with a real eye towards what are the, like, equity impacts of the approaches we take.

Dr. Val: Yeah, and I, I think it's really important for us on this podcast to have the conversation because we would be lying to ourselves (and the audience would be lying to themselves) if they didn't associate possibly integrating a global majority school with issues of wondering about their child's safety. Right?

And so, naming that, putting that out there about what we think we know about safety, what we understand about it, and kind of grappling with our ideas about it, is really important.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's, like, a, a reason that White and privileged folks will give all the time for not enrolling in their neighborhood school. For not enrolling in the global majority school down the block, is concerns about safety. And I think, yeah, she, she brings a great clarity to it, and I think it's on, on us to also keep that at the forefront of our minds, that when we talk about safety, there are safety issues in all schools.

There are ways that all schools can be harmful to kids. And we tend to associate particularly those physical manifestations of lack of safety with Black and Brown schools. And, and I think the data doesn't really back that up.

Dr. Val: That's right. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Andrew: All right, let's take a listen.

—------------------------------------

Dr. Meg Caven: My name is Meg Caven I am a senior research associate at a company called the Education Development Center. We do applied research and technical assistance for, uh, education and public health. But leading into that work, I did a PhD in sociology focused on school discipline and racial inequity, and what happens when we use policy to try to interrupt some of the negative consequences of school discipline and other socializing aspects of the education system.

Andrew: Mm. And why do you care about that?

Dr. Val: I know, that sounds super interesting! Can you say more about that?

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah, I have always been interested in education, but less so in education as, like, a manufacturer of academic outcomes, and more in education as, as a social engine in our society, right?

Like, if you go back to the sort of founding principles of public schooling, that it's instrumental in creating our society, creating whole people. That we have to think about schools as more than academic institutions.

Dr. Val: Preach.

Dr. Meg Caven: Preach, right? And so, if we're thinking about schools as more than just academic institutions, and simultaneously are holding this belief that schools are, you know, quote unquote, the great equalizer among men, we have to ask the question, to what extent are, are schools achieving that aim of promoting social equity?

And of course, you know, it's no surprise to you that we find that in fact, schools are not completely achieving on that goal. And, and we have to ask the question why, and examine the places where that is particularly the case.

And so for me, school discipline is, is one place where we tie together these social systems that promote inequality, where they would otherwise have the opportunity to do the opposite, right?

So, so if mass incarceration is, the new Jim Crow and we see school discipline as this, like, pipeline between schools and the criminal legal system. Folks are beginning to recognize policy solutions to try to interrupt that pipeline. And I'm really curious what it looks like for schools (and school leaders and educators) to sort of internalize those policies and turn them from, like, a state level edict into a set of school level practices and what, what implication does that have for kids, right?

And I, I'm trying to think of like, what's the personal story about me that connects me to that?

Dr. Val: Are you reading my mind? I literally was like, what is your personal connection to this?

[Laughter]

Dr. Meg Caven: Like, “What is it about you? Like, why you, why this?” I was thinking about this yesterday, right? Like, I have tremendous privilege in the education system. I went to an independent school, I grew up in Toronto. And I had a really generally positive educational experience. Right?

So I'm, I'm a queer identified person. I came to that queer identity in high school, and I, at the time, assumed that that meant I knew a lot about oppression. That I could, like, apply to other people's experiences and like, “I understand you because we have a shared experience of, of otherness and oppression.”

And when I came from Canada to the US, I tr– I crossed a national boundary where the histories and legacies of racism are different. Toronto is one of the most multicultural cities in the world. And it's also really good at patting itself on the back for being so, and like, bringing a very colorblind ideology to like, “We have got this. No need to self-examine here, because look around you. It's, it’s –

Andrew: “Look how polite we are!”

Dr. Meg Caven: – a salad bowl,” right? Look how polite! “Look how polite we are.”

And so I sort of brought those pieces with me when I moved to the US, and then I got schooled. You know, I was really lucky to make friends with a group of people who were very willing to call me in on my misunderstandings of the way, race and racism operate in the United States. And that became, like, a very deep personal commitment. Like, okay, I thought I got this as a White person. I thought I got this as a queer person. Turns out I don't! And so, let me make that my work, to find a place, to work for justice in a way that's appropriate based on my positionality.

And, and so that's sort of how I got into education. And how I got to school discipline specifically? I, I don't know, maybe it was, maybe it was more cerebral than any, than any real experience. But once you start spending time in schools and seeing the ways, seeing the variation in the ways that kids are treated as, like, young humans who are in development of their individuality. And you compare it to your own experience, you're like, this is like, I just had, I had so much freedom. And, and to see that freedom juxtaposed against the control and the surveillance–

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: –that are brought to bear on kids of color in particular, was just, uh, like, impossible to ignore.

Andrew: So, like, this contrast between the freedom you felt and then the ways you saw kids, particularly kids of color, being treated in our education system was kind of the breaking point.

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah.

Andrew: But, yeah, I kind of want to go back to that memory of your own sense of freedom.

Dr. Val: Yeah, what did this freedom look like? Feel like?

Andrew: Because my guess is, that is tied to a sense of safety. Like, to, to feel free, you have to feel safe.

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah. I mean, I went to this all girls independent school where, like, the message about being yourself and finding yourself and expressing yourself, those messages were loud.

Andrew: Mmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: And so, even as a young queer person, as a young, like, gender nonconforming person, I sort of found my way. I felt enough safety to come out in limited ways, within my school community. Eventually to my family. And ultimately I, I'm not really sure I could point to a single one thing that made me feel entitled to that space, cuz it was a struggle, right? Like it wasn't, it wasn't all sunshine and roses. But it felt important to fight for, and it felt safe enough that the fight wouldn't endanger me in, like, bodily or economic ways.

And it's, like, impossible not to acknowledge Whiteness, right? Like I'm not saying anything that anyone doesn't already know. That there's just, immeasurable privilege that my White body is granted in a social system. To, to sort of push boundaries in ways that other people don't have when you're a person of color.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yeah. So this link between freedom and safety feels really powerful to me and certainly pushes beyond this idea of just, like, physical safety, which is part of what you study through our current school context. Can you talk us through that link a little more and, kind of, broader definition of safety that you use?

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah, I think for me, my entry into school safety came through one particular door, which is like, uh, in the popular imagination when we start to think about school safety, we're talking often about managing the risks around gun violence in schools, right? And people's answers to how do we manage the risk around gun violence in schools invariably start to look a lot like an arms race, right?

Like, we have got to manage the risk of gun violence in schools with police, with metal detectors, with threat assessment protocols. Even, you know, arming teachers, right?

And those, those solutions sound good because they kind of match the intensity of school shootings in their tenor. Right? Like, there's no arguing with the fact that gun violence in schools is, like, tragic and harrowing and absolutely gut wrenching.

Andrew: And extreme.

Dr. Meg Caven: And extreme.

Andrew: And so it feels like it must call for extreme measures because it is such, like, an ex, an extreme problem.

Dr. Meg Caven: Exactly. Exactly. And so, that, that conversation begins to take shape in the public domain and immediately for me, I hear this, sort of, list of interventions that we should put into play “to increase the safety of our schools,” right? It's like, “Well, let's get more cops, let's get more metal detectors. Let's sort of amplify the surveillance and the control mechanisms around violence prevention.” And all of those things have documented, evidence-based repercussions for kids of color that are negative, right?

You put more cops in schools, the arrest rates for kids of color goes up. You arrest kids of color, their health outcomes go down, their educational outcomes go down. You've linked them to the criminal legal system. And you're immediately, in an effort to increase school safety, you have also made schools less equitable, more racially unjust for the majority of public school students in the country. Right?

Dr. Val: Yep.

Dr. Meg Caven: And so, for me, I'm interested in interrupting the conversation about school safety that is so one-dimensional around gun violence, right? That is a critically important aspect of protecting young people. But at the end of the day, school shootings remain very, very rare. And there are so many other features of schools that are associated with safety for the kids who are in them.

And so, not only do we need to be really thoughtful about the ways that we promote safety (and reduce the risk of violence in schools so that kids are not exposed to interventions with these unintended consequences that are racially inequitable), but I think we need to have a more expansive view of what it means to have a safe school. And that extends to protecting kids’ emotional and mental health, to protecting kids from structural violence that comes down on them via school, district, and state policy.

Andrew: There's the first piece of this, which is like the, the systems that we put into place disproportionately endanger students of color. But I think there's another piece of this, which is like, if you actually start thinking about the whole kid needing to feel safe, that these systems that we put in place also damage that for all kids.

And so, like, if you're, if, if you're invested in creating a school community where everybody feels a sense of belonging (where everybody feels a sense of ownership over the community), that these measures that we take are working counter to that. That metal detectors, that, that police in schools are working counter to this sense of community, and that leads to the things that are much more likely to actually impact your kid's safety. Which is bullying, which is, you know, fights in hallways, which is these other, these other things that are–

My guess would be, and I don't know, (maybe, maybe the data backs this up, maybe it's not), my, my suspicion is that those things are amplified when you create this kind of surveillance system, when you create this expectation of, of violence, when you create these, measures that are designed for safety, that maybe you are actually amplifying the things that are more likely to actually cause, you know, impacts on safety.

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah. And it, and in truth, Andrew, like, I don't feel like the, the sort of causal explanations there are really strong in any given direction, right? You know, the data typically show that, like, when police are in schools, more incidents are reported.

Is that because there are more incidents because there are police? Is that because police are brought into schools where there are more incidents at baseline? Um, regardless, I think that the kinds of things you're talking about, right? Bullying, physical or other types of altercations. Like, those are, those are culture issues in schools. Like th, that's about relationship, it's about community, it's about culture. It is, it's not about surveillance and control.

Andrew: And by culture, I guess you just mean the ways that a school community interacts with itself. The way we might talk about school climate or something?

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah. It's the same conversation I feel like we have on the community level when we talk about whether or not police are the “right” people to solve social problems around, uh, poverty, homelessness, community instability in other sorts of ways, right? Mental health crises.

I talk to a lot of people who are like, “You know, the SRO in my school, the school resource officer in my school, was the only person I could talk to because he or she came from my neighborhood. He or she came from my community. They were the only Spanish speaking person, the only person of color in my community.”

And I, like, I've got time for that all day. I think it's incredibly important to have those kinds of adults, those kinds of caring adults in the building. Do they have to be cops?

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Meg Caven: There's no reason why, why that person (who's the person that a child can connect to) is also a person who has the power to arrest that child. Who, like, carries a set of handcuffs, around a school building.

Andrew: But if our policies are only focused on removing SROs from schools without putting something else to fill that role, I mean, I think something that you wrote this is more about, you know, uh, suspensions and expulsions, but the same sort of idea applies: “limiting exclusionary disciplines is imperative, but violence must not be left unchecked. Disorder erodes feelings of safety as well.”

And I feel like that's a really, it's a hard line to walk because a school that is in chaos does not feel safe to any of the students. And a school that is relying on, you know, punitive discipline or cops to enforce all of its discipline also does not feel safe.

Dr. Meg Caven: Right. And that sort of came out of some of my dissertation research, which had to do with, you know, what it looks like in schools when you put new restrictions in place on the ways that suspension and expulsion can be used. Right? And, you know, I spent six months in, inside a couple of schools, essentially just following the disciplinarians around saying, like, “Okay, you, you no longer have these tools in your belt. What are you doing to try to create feelings of safety and stability in this, in this school building?” And what I found was, like, in, in the setting of having suspension and expulsion taken off the table in terms of tools they could use, there was nothing else they had. And there was no money for restorative justice coordinators. There were no additional people, there was no additional training. They were really left to wing it. And, and more often than not, what they did was suspend the kids anyway and just not write it down. Right? “Go home. We'll try again tomorrow. You best not come back here until you come back with a parent for a meeting.” Like, that's still a suspension! But the suspension didn't get written down, so it looks really great in the data, but actually in terms of culture and climate, nothing's changing within those schools.

And so, you know, after George Floyd was murdered and districts across the country started to pull police departments out of their school buildings and sort of say, “You're right, like, we've got a system-wide issue with police brutality. We're not gonna replicate that inside our schools. We are gonna take seriously these years of community organizing, and the student-led and community-led movements that have asked for police to be taken out of schools. We're gonna, we're gonna execute on that.” I couldn't help but watch that happen across the country and feel like, “Yeah, okay, but what are you doing instead?”

And I don't, I, I don't think police are the answer. Like I, I really believe those abolitionist movements, those community-led movements that are saying “we want cops out of the schools.” But I do think it's important to think about what are the real solutions to cultivating a safety that is felt by all students? And I think we have a lot more work to do to identify those things.

And so, so in my piece I wrote about the, the importance of sort of like rapid cycle evaluation, and here's where I'm exposing myself as a researcher, right?

But like, there is not gonna be a one-size-fits-all approach. Right? But I think educators are busy people. They, they hope for and deserve out of the box solutions. And I'm one of the people who will say there aren't any, because every school context is different.

And culture and contextual factors are important. And they vary tremendously.

We need more research, but we need research done by school communities, inside school communities. Like, my dream would be to drive a, like, nationwide network of youth participatory action research projects where, like, young people in schools are talking to each other about “What are the things in here that make me feel safe and unsafe, and how do we aggregate those up and create real student-led solutions that promote, like, a really holistic safety inside schools.”

Dr. Val: Okay, so sometimes I speak for all Black people.

[Val laughs]

Dr. Meg Caven: I speak for all the gays, so I'm with you.

[Andrew laughs]

Dr. Val: Okay. Okay. Sweet, sweet, sweet.

Andrew: That leaves the White people for me.

[Laughter]

Dr. Val: Where do you, oh, both of you all, alright? So, where do you all think White folks get their ideas about what it means to be safe?

Dr. Meg Caven: Val,

[Val laughs]

Dr. Meg Caven: That's a question, right? I mean, immediately, I think like where I start with is, like, racial segregation, right? Like, White flight, folks retreat to their enclaves, and, like, build up these homogenous neighborhoods that are impenetrable by any other.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: And, and that becomes a feeling of safety. Like, “I know everybody, everybody looks like me, and every, anyone who isn't here is a threat.” So, I think that's one piece of it, right?

I think, and this is where I, I go back to (eighties, nineties, early two thousands) policies and public creations of these fictions, like “urban teenage super predators,” who are these, like, “wild” youth of color who are “always on the verge of violence.” And they become this sort of, like, public political fiction that white folks who have no idea, sort of, like, attach to every Black or African American youth they see is, is, is just a, a, a minute away from, unprovoked violence.

So being at a distance from that feels synonymous with safety, right?

And then, I think if that's what that is (if, if safety is ultimately separation from folks of color, right?), then I think white folks start to look for the, the infrastructures (and the technologies, right?) that keep them separate.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: And I think, I think it does have to do with race. I think it also has to do with poverty. Like, I don't mean to exclude socioeconomic difference. We acknowledge that the power to sort of create these, these public imaginations lies in the hands of the affluent White folks who hold the cameras and the microphones, that really, separation from Working class and poor folks. Separation from folks of color, separation from immigrants, separation from, you know–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: – gender nonconforming people, the LGBTQ community. Like, it all becomes about maintaining barriers against the “other.” And whatever it takes to, to hold those boundaries.

Dr. Val: Yeah. So given that (which gave me chills, that was a, a chill reaction, in my body based on your words), do you think White folks, that false sense of safety, means they miss opportunities to talk to their kids about safety at school? Or what makes them feel safe? Or, like what opportunities are missed because we think we've created this bubble in which we are always safe?

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah. I think in all honesty, most parents in public schools have to contend with (and don't have the privilege of) achieving that complete retreat. Right? Like, it's only a very small subset of people who are like, “Here I am, safe in my enclave and, and nothing shall cross the threshold that would, that would expose my young person to threat.”

I think there are more parents than we know who send their kids to school saying, “Is my kid safe from racial bias? Is my kid safe from bullying based on their gender identity expression or sexuality? Is my kids safe from bullying based on their socio, socioeconomic status, the clothes they wear, or the sneakers we can afford?

Right? Like, I think there's a lot, a lot of parents who know that there are risks out there for their kids, socially and emotionally. And it's actually a very limited subset who get to exist in the bubble of this, this perceived safety.

Dr. Val: Hm.

Dr. Meg Caven: And so, are those folks missing the opportunity to talk to their kids about, about how safety is cultivated for them or how safety is threatened in, in their schools?

Sure. But I know, I know that many more parents are actually on a day-to-day basis, like, having to contend with that in a very real way. And I don't wanna pretend otherwise.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: I think, I think there's also the difference between perceived safety and actual safety. Right? So I, I think like, it's terrifying to be a parent, right? You have these little people. You want them to, to thrive, you want them to be safe. And so it's like, well, what you, “Uh, I don't know what to look for.”

And then there's this, like, nice, neat narrative for White parents, which is “You need to keep your kid around White kids.” Right? Like, that the answer to safety is to move to a quote unquote safe neighborhood with quote unquote good schools. And what does that mean? That means a White neighborhood with White schools, right?

So that, that narrative, that “smog,” you know, to quote Beverly Daniel Tatum, that's like, that's everywhere. We just, like, breathe that and recreate that all the time. And so it sort of sinks in as this, like, idea to, like, channel the understandable terror of being a parent into this thing that seems a little more controllable. Cuz here's this system that says, “Well, you know, if you just make enough money or if you just call the right admissions person, or if you just,” you know, “make the system bend your will in just the right way, then you can solve for this safety thing” and you feel like you've done it.

But, but I don't think that those spaces that we then create, those all White spaces? I mean school shootings are rare, and where do we see them most often? We see them in incredibly homogenous, White privileged spaces. Like, those spaces that we think we're creating for safety are not actually safe in the end.

Dr. Meg Caven: A hundred percent.

Ani DeFranco had this line in a song like a million years ago. That was like, every year now like Christmas , some boy gets the milkfed suburban blues, reaches for the available arsenal, and saunters off to make the news.

And it's like….

Andrew: That's really good.

Dr. Meg Caven: That's…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Meg Caven: And it's, uh, and it's true! It’s true of, of violence in Black churches. It's true of violence in synagogues. In LGBT clubs. Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah, every morning I drop my oldest off to school. He's a ninth grader, and every morning there's a line to go in through the metal detectors. And every morning there's a sense of sadness, you know, of, of watching the young people do this. And it, it's wild because I remember thinking recently, man, “I'm, like, super excited that at their school they don't have a, a hoodie and hat policy. Like, they can just wear hoodies and hats. Like, that's yay!” Right?

And yet, each morning, they have to walk through metal detectors and, it doesn't make me as a parent necessarily feel safer. I think, I feel like the odds are lower that there will be a mass shooting at the school. Maybe.

Um, and I don't actually know what to do about that, and I don't actually know the conversation to have about that either, because our children have grown up with so much violence in schools. I think in some respects they might feel safer. Right?

We lived in Florida, during the Stoneman Douglas shooting, and I am typically okay with talking to my kids about anything at all. But for whatever reason, like, a week had passed and I just was not able. I was just so broken over the whole thing that I was not able to, like, have a conversation with them about it. And my youngest came home and she was like, “Today we had a ALICE drill because there was a, a shooting at a school and they used uh, you know, AR 15.”

And she knew, like, all of the details that had happened. And I just remember feeling so, so broken about the ways in which our young people are having to experience school, in so many different ways. Cause we're not even talking about curriculum violence, right? Like, I've had to have parent conferences saying like, “This book is extra racist. We're not gonna read this as a class.” Right?

So, I'm also having to stand in, in that way as well. And, I don't know, it's just a rant. I knew you would hear me, so thank you for listening.

[Laughter]

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah. No, I mean it's, no, I'm, I'm with you! Right? Like. It's hard to hold space for both, right? Like, school shootings are, are these, like, devastating ruptures that absolutely eviscerate our belief that, that schools can be a sanctuary for kids.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: And, they are so infrequent, relative to the daily acts of violence that occur within schools that don't leave a bruise that we can see. Right? And I think, I think curricular violence is one. Right? I'm like really conscious about not wanting to center queerness in this space, but we're definitely in a moment where violence against trans youth is playing out in ways that, like, really tie the hands of educators who more often than not wanna do right by their kids, but, but they are, put a tremendous risk by these policies that are coming down in, in states, across the country, around restricting the ways that educators can acknowledge and, and validate young people's gender identities and whole selves.

And that, that access to that kind of validation and support is a tremendous protection for those kids (for trans kids in particular) against the risk of suicide and depression and other mental health. Like, it really matters! It really matters that schools be spaces that kids can safely be their complete selves. And that, that is true of gender identity. It's also true of racial identity. Right? And, and when you think about, like, school dress codes are still dealing with bullshit about hair.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: You know? And like, how is that still a thing where kids of color are spending time in the disciplinary system inside their schools because of, because of their hair?

Dr. Val: Their natural hair that grows out of their head.

Dr. Meg Caven: Their natural hair! Right? And so, if we know, if we know that kids' safety (measured by their mental health and their ability to keep on living in a world that is not always kind) is placed at risk by policies and relationships where their authenticity is invalidated, how can we stand behind for a single second, any action or restriction on that authenticity? And so, I think going back to your original question of, like, what did it mean for me to feel safe?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: What did it feel like for me to feel safe as a young person in my school? It was that! Right? It,

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: I was a weird kid! You know? Even, even before I sort of found language around my queer identity, I was, I was weird.

And that weirdness was celebrated.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I mean, that to me is such a compelling, you, you know, the, the argument on the other side of creating spaces for representation of creating, you know, a space where kids can see their own identity reflected, can feel like that's an acceptable thing. The argument on the other side is that, is that White cis kids might feel a little bit uncomfortable. And, and you know, when you pair that against, like, the likelihood of my ability to thrive, to continue to live, on one hand, and this, like, slight discomfort. On the other hand, it's like, how, yeah, how can we still be having this argument? How can we be having this?

Dr. Meg Caven: Yep. Yeah, my, my four-year-old son (he's not four anymore, he turned five this week), requested for his birthday a zombie costume and an Elsa costume. And, and yesterday he wore his Elsa earrings to school. He just clipped them on his ears and he wore his little Elsa earrings to school and. like from, from down the block, his teacher was like, “Are you wearing earrings? You look fabulous!” Like, the, the, the celebration of that and that I knew enough about his school and knew enough about the adults in his school to, like, not worry about him for a minute, in, in that expression of himself felt, feels a lot like safety. And, and Whiteness.

Dr. Val: Can I talk to you about a similar experience–

Dr. Meg Caven: Yeah!

Dr. Val: – that I had with my son at five? Um, like, the teacher had said he ran around a lot and I remember, and thankfully he does not remember (cuz I checked), and we were in the car and I said, “You know, you have to listen to what the teacher tells you to do because if you don't listen, you'll get labeled emotionally, behavior disturbed and then you'll be tracked forever.”

And, like, I have a five year old in the backseat who is like, “What is happening?” Right? And I felt just so much pain at my reaction to that. Cuz it, it wasn't him and I shouldn't have ever put that on him. He was a kid who was being five and running around the classroom. And in his defense, he's a multiple time national champion track athlete!

[Laughter]

So he, so he,

Dr. Meg Caven: Big ups to him!

Andrew: He was practicing!

Dr. Meg Caven: No shit!

Dr. Val: He wanted to run! Right? But, but to imagine a school community (like what you just described or your son) for all children, what, what a beautiful gift that would be for all children. And so, yeah, my heart breaks for parents who have to have conversations like mine and my heart rejoices when we find school communities like your, your son goes to. So,

Dr. Meg Caven: I'm sorry you had to do that. Like, it just, shouldn't be that way.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: And that conversation. I mean, like I, I know from the Black parents in our school community, that, like, they're having those conversations with their kids. Maybe not so much about the school, but, like, definitely about the world beyond the school.

Dr. Val: Yep.

Andrew: Yeah, you, you wrote “turnkey solutions to thorny problems are a fallacy,” which I love. We're, our listeners are used to coming to these episodes and not coming away with “Here is the thing that we should do.” But, but you do have some suggestions around, what it might look like to make progress on this, to create more safe school environments.

One of the things that I really appreciate about it is this idea of centering the voices most likely to be negatively impacted. Right? So, so one of the things I think about is as a White dad with White kids, most of the systems in our society are set up to support me and my kids.

And, and it's easy to have a lot of faith that they are going to work the way they are designed for my kids. I have little question that my kids are gonna be, you know, disproportionately criminalized because of a metal detector at their school. That if they accidentally had something in their bag, they'd be given the benefit of the doubt. That, kind of, the system is going to have the flexibility that it should have on behalf of my kids, in a way that is not true for other kids.

And so I think this idea of like, whose voices do we center when we are, when we were asking these questions.

So you said, you know, like the, the community voice that has said, “We don't want police in schools,” we need to listen to. And, then we need to also say, okay, well, so what, what goes in its place? So, you know, sort of thinking about, about next steps, and particularly next steps that parents can take as our audience is largely parents and caregivers. Like, what, what does it look like to advocate for more safe school environments?

Dr. Meg Caven: I think student voice and community voice are critical. Right? What would it look like, Val, to talk to the students in your son's school and say, this metal detector here, like, do you want this? What, how does this make you feel? And, and there may be some group of students who are like, “You know, it actually makes me feel better cuz I know that nobody else here has got anything on them.”

Right? In the schools that I spent time in, The kids would walk through that metal detector having had to dump out their water bottles. Right? And what they said to me was “This is worse than the airport. This is not a school, this is a jail.” Right? It was not lost on them, the message–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: –that was being said, right?

And, and for them to have the opportunity to say that to someone with decision making power, I think is imperative. Right?

So I think extending that to parents, right? If, if you are a parent who wants to act as an advocate or, or ensure that your student can act as an advocate? I think showing up in the spaces where decisions are being made is an important first step, right?

The, the Boston Public Schools school committee meeting, just last week, there was a huge community showing about, listen, this is a district that says it's promoting restorative justice, but you've got a three person staff for a district of 125 schools specializing in restorative justice. And your public safety office has more than 70 employees, and they're all cops. So, like, what does that say? And, and, and then the media picked that up. And then those are stories that are, that are now getting traction at the level of the superintendent.

But at the end of the day, so much of this has to do with resources, dollars, people, time, knowledge. And, and so what can you, as a parent do to make sure that the money is going where you think it should go to promote the kind of safety that you hope your kid experiences in school? Number one.

Number two, I, I think advocating for the kinds of systems and structures that ensure a wider diversity of voices. Obviously racially, ethnically, socioeconomically, but, but also in terms of youth and adults. Establishing, like, real student governance structures inside school districts, I think is important, with real power. Right?

Like, ensuring that those folks have actual power and are not just doing lip service and, and providing an opportunity for, for districts to give themselves a pat on the back for (on the face of it) including youth voice in, in their decision making.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Meg Caven: And then to come back to my researcher identity, I think getting some real traction with what we call rapid cycle evaluation or continuous improvement. Right? Like, what would it take to put in “Plan, Do, Study, Act” cycles into schools, into districts? “We're gonna try this thing. We're gonna try hiring an additional three school counselors instead of our school safety officers,” right? “Instead of our SROs.” “Let's think about, like, what are the metrics we would expect to move? What would be the indicators that this is working? And let's track on those things for three months, for six months and come back together and, and assess whether this intervention is doing what we're hoping for it to do, and if not, like, what is it we need to tweak or change so that we have a better hope of achieving our desired outcome in terms of safety?”

And that I think requires taking even one more step back and, like, doing the visioning of, “As a community, what does school safety even look like to us?” And how will we know when we're there?

Andrew: Mmmm. Mm-hmm. This has been great! I'm so grateful for all of your work for coming on and spending the time, and sharing, and giving us such a, a deeper understanding. I think just, like, a much broader way to think about safety that feels really powerful.

Dr. Meg Caven: It was such a pleasure. I think it's a really important conversation. And it's nuanced and it's messy and I'm, I'm really happy to be in it with y'all. And hopefully this will be of, of some use to someone.

Dr. Val: Absolutely. Thank you!

Dr. Meg Caven: Thank you so much for having me.

—------------------------------------

Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Dr. Val: Yeah, I, I really appreciate Dr. Meg's, bringing so much nuance to this conversation. You know, as a parent (and I talked about, like, metal detectors at my kid's school) and, you know, while I, I hate that that happens, there is some sense of security you feel in knowing that at least through that door, there aren't any weapons.

And at the same time, it feels like what are we doing wrong, that that has to be part of what helps us feel safe? And acknowledging that for some students, and for some parents, that might be exactly what they need in order to feel comfortable with their young people at a school site.

And so, so I, I appreciate the nuance. And I appreciate her deep curiosity for asking these questions in the first place and what messages we're sending to our young people about it. Like with every conversation, when we talk about what parents want, I can guarantee that there's no parent who doesn't want their kids safe at school, right?

Andrew: I appreciate , yeah, the nuance, right? She, she, she has that quote, “turnkey solutions to thorny problems are a fallacy.” I think, so often we're like, “Well, what's the, what's the answer to school safety?”

“What's the thing that we are gonna do? Is it more metal detectors? Is it more cops? Is it,” you know, “arming teachers?” And it's none of those things. And, if there is any turnkey solution, it is, like, we have to do the work on the ground with the community, who is the most impacted and say what does it mean to be safe?

What does it mean to feel safe? What does it mean to, to create an environment that makes you feel like you are safe and can, you know, engage in this project of democracy building? Engage in this project of education as a, as a great equalizer.

One of the themes that she sort of touched on that, that I've been knocking around since the conversation, is this like link between freedom and safety. That, you know, she felt safe enough in her school environment growing up to explore her, her identity.

To figure out who she was, there was, like, a degree of safety that was required for her to feel free enough to do that. And so what does it look like to create schools that are actually incubating freedom? What does it look like to create schools that are actually places where we are creating safety that allows kids to be free?

Dr. Val: Mmm! You dropped the mic on that one. I was really touched by her talking about experiencing freedom in school and really wanting that for all young people. And so, I wonder what conversations adults have to have to come to common ground about what freedom looks like for every child. And, you know, most times I'm pretty hopeful. I'm a hopeful person.

Andrew: Yeah!

Dr. Val: For whatever reason, that, that conversation feels challenging to me. And I'm not quite sure why.

Andrew: Conversation about creating schools that are incubators of freedom?

Dr. Val: About us coming to common understanding about what that looks like for–

Andrew: Mmm.

Dr. Val: –for our people.

Andrew: Mmm.

Dr. Val: Umm. I think that feels difficult. Cause I think this is where parents can make the argument, “Well, it's my values as a parent.” You know, it feels like that one feels personal because again, every parent wants their child safe!

Andrew: And every parent has very different, both tolerance for risk and–

Dr. Val: Right!

Andrew: –priorities around which pieces of safety feel the most relevant, or the most important. It’s one of the terrifying things about being a parent is that you cannot create absolute safety for your kids, and you probably don't want to create absolute safety.

You know, they need to have some risk in their lives. They need to take some chances, they need to make some mistakes. And you're sort of constantly weighing out the, like, “Is this a risk I'm willing to take? Is this a place where I'm willing to give them a little bit more space, a little bit more flexibility, a little bit more freedom? And that is something that we don't do collectively. That is a super individual choice.

And so, then we have these institutions that are, that are tasked with, you know, kind of creating (I think what we often end up doing) is they end up kind of catering to the lowest common denominator, which ends up being the least amount of freedom. The least amount of flexibility, the least amount of space to explore and grow, because otherwise somebody's gonna be mad about it because it doesn't match theirs.

But I, you know, may, the, the, the hopeful version of, of me and I, I share, I share some of your skepticism and lack of hope around it (because it does feel like a daunting task)! But I, but I think the more hopeful version of it in, in my mind is like, this is a, again, we, we look at schools as a place to practice democracy, right?

Like, these are questions that we have to grapple with as a country as well. These are questions we have to grapple with, you know, as a society, is like, how, how much flexibility, how much freedom, how much space do we give people? Part of the bargain of participating in our country is that we are giving up some freedom and, and there's lots of tension around which freedoms are we giving up, how much are we giving up?

And, and schools provide a place to potentially (I don't know that any school is doing it well, but at least there's the potential) to try to sort those things out, to figure out how, what, how do we come together and decide, you know, what are, what are the non-negotiables and what are the places where we're gonna allow some flexibility and some freedom?

Dr. Val: I think I'm feeling sad. Because I think, you know, you and I are still having the conversation around physical safety, and we know that it's more than, than one dimension. And I can't imagine the energy that many people are willing to put into conversations around physical safety, them putting that same energy around emotional safety, curricular safety, queer identity safety.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: And that's sad! That, that, that is sad because, you know, when I hear you say we go with the, the lowest common denominator, the least amount of freedom, those types of instances can really be in the words of Bettina Love, spirit murdering, or actually lead a, a child to cause harm to themselves, because they aren't in a space that's safe for their identity or for their spirits. Right?

So yeah, I think, I think what I was, like, struggling with to try to name is, yeah, we'll, we can sit down and talk about whether or not we want metal detectors. That part feels easy, but there are some folks who don't want to talk about Black history. They don't want to acknowledge queer parents. They, you know, like real harm! And, and I think that's, that's the conversation that feels really hard.

So, I think just broadening this idea of safety is, is really important in the conversation. Cuz like you said at the opening, it's far more likely that these other types of harm are being caused in school than mass shootings, et cetera. And yet, I saw, something recently, there's a, a company who's like creating a movable wall that like, it's a, like a hideaway wall where you close it and it's a bulletproof and,

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: What are we doing?

Andrew: Kevlar reinforced backpacks for kids.

Dr. Val: What are we doing! What are we doing, right? When once a kid gets into that school, you know, we, we haven't thought about the, the beauty and the freedom that Dr. Meg talked about, that she experiences being able to be her full self. Right?

So when we talk about creating spaces of freedom. It's not just about how freely kids walk in the hallways or go to lunch or don't have to line up. There's so much more involved in that and it's not fair that only a subset of kids get to experience that.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. And I appreciate that Dr. Meg kept coming back as well to like the, the power of Whiteness in her own life. You know, like, the, the role that Whiteness played in creating that safe space. It was not the only factor, but was certainly a factor in creating that space for her to explore.

And, I mean, think about how much time and energy and for a company to design a hideaway wall that's bulletproof. That's like an immense amount of intellectual labor–

Dr. Val: What are we doing?

Andrew: – of physical labor! But, but you know, it's a response to this very real palpable fear that, you know, you see on the news what happens in, in a school and you say, “I, I could not live with that.”

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: “We have to do something. It is extreme. We have to do something.” But like, how do we create a society that views the far more often and far more damaging harm of a trans kid not being able to, to be themselves. Of a Black kid, not seeing themselves in their curriculum. Of a Latinx kid not learning any Latinx history in school. Like, how do we look at those dangers and have the same level of outrage and have the same, you know, degree of, of energy and activism to do something about that? Cuz, cuz that's actually going to help far more kids than, you know, the one school that happens to get a bulletproof wall that then happens to–

Dr. Val: What are we doing?

Andrew: – be the victim in a school shooting.

Dr. Val: Right, right. And it, instead of being honest about that level of safety for all young people, you know, the discourse in our current moment is, “Let's make sure kids with dominant identities are the ones who feel the safest still. Let's make sure we don't talk about race so that young White students don't feel bad.” Right?

Andrew: That is taking a broader view of safety. I mean, I think it's taking it in the wrong direction. But the argument is “My kid is not safe. My White kid is not safe if they are exposed to ideas of racism. My potentially cis kid is not safe if they're exposed to other versions of gender, other versions of sexuality, other versions of love,” right? That is a call for a broader definition of safety. It's just, who do we listen to in that?

And this is, you know, one of the other things I just found so compelling about Dr. Meg and her focus is, like, you know, she very clearly says we have to listen to those who are the most impacted. We have to focus our research. We have to focus our, you know, attention on those who are the most impacted by the ways we think about safety.

Dr. Val: Yeah. You know, these last two episodes you got me in my feels, homie.

[Andrew chuckles]

Andrew: It wasn't my intent. Say more about your feels.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I'm, I'm, uh,

Andrew: Is it, is it a, uh, is it just like a kind of hopelessness? Is it a like–

Dr. Val: No.

Andrew: –the tragedy of how many kids are, are being harmed right in this moment?

Dr. Val: Yeah. Yeah. It is tragic. It's tragic. It's, it's something that we have the power to change. It's causing so much harm to the young folks that we have been chosen to usher in and support. And young people are being used in this moment.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: And their voices aren't being elevated. And even if they said, “Here's what I need my school to be,” we are ignoring them. And that's, that's, that's tough! For anyone who cares about young people. And in terms of, like, what that means for our audience (and to connect to all of the episodes and everything that we talk about) Like, as a White privileged parent, attending a global majority of school, don't show up with your, your idea of fear and safety and try to impose that on the school because of your biases around how the world works, right? Like being in real community with folks and understanding what it is that makes them feel safe.

And if we, if we honestly work from the standpoint that no parent wants their kids to feel unsafe at school, and we center the voices of those who feel the least safe–

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: –then your kid will be safe.

Andrew: Mm. Right.

Dr. Val: Your kid will be safe.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: It's tragic! It's tragic. It's tragic because they're counting on us, I imagine.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: To get it right.

Andrew: To get it better.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: To get it less wrong.

Dr. Val: Get it less wrong. How about that? That's, that's a goal!

[Laughter]

Andrew: That's a goal. That feels attainable.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Less wrong. Less wrong. That does feel attainable. That does feel attainable. Sorry, y'all. These are heavy topics!

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, it's, it speaks to why we have to think of more than one dimension of school safety, right? Why we can't stop at physical safety. And I think why we can't take a, like, “race blind” approach to our thoughts about safety, right? Like the, there is a way, (and I mean this in some ways comes back to one of your very first episodes, right?) is like, no amount of my commitment to equity puts my kids at risk in the same way that your kids are at risk.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And there's a way in which my tolerance for safety interventions is likely to be higher because I have less reason to be concerned about them negatively impacting my kid, right?

But it's much easier for me to, and I don't know, like I don't want my kids to go to school where there's a metal detector. I think. They don't currently. I don't, I don't know that I would be excited about that, but, but my lack of excitement about that would be more about like, what does that do to the school culture and much less about like, what does that do to my individual kid?

Because the systems are set up to give my kid the benefit of the doubt. You know, those things that we are putting in place are designed with my kids in mind. And I think there is this, like, heightened sense of fear, you know, caused by media attention on these incredibly rare and incredibly tragic incidents like school shootings. So everybody has a baseline level of fear, but, but the reality I think is, as in so many other places, my kids are actually in a much safer position.

It's like, that's why I need to show up for safety for a whole child, for a more than one dimensional version of safety. And I need to see, like, what is, what does that mean to the people who are in the school?

Dr. Val: I think another reason why I'm in my feels about this is, you know, because I've always known that one of the reasons White and or privileged folks won't want to integrate global majority schools is because they'll use the “safety” argument. And, you know, anti-Blackness is just hard.

It's just hard. It’s just hard, friend. And so, I'm glad we're having the conversation because I think people won't be honest about that level of anti-Blackness. Right?

Andrew: Mmm.

Dr. Val: And so, as difficult as it is to have the conversation, I think it’s important for us to name the thing. Let's just stop pretending that you're actually worried about safety, or let's talk about why you feel unsafe around Black and Brown people.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: And, and this is me knowing that folks feel unsafe around Black and Brown people. And that's just hard, cuz I'm a Black and Brown person.

[Val laughs]

Right? So, you know, some days it's easier to, like, just kind of brush that off and some days it, it puts me in my feels about it. But I think it puts me in my feels about it whenever we're talking about children being impacted.

Cuz again, we're talking about five to 11 year olds in elementary school.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And we've already,

Andrew: Decided who's safe and who's not.

Dr. Val: Right. But we're not at all concerned about (and this is, I'm obviously general, generalizing), but we're not at all concerned about, like, these young people having the spaces where they, their identity is affirmed and they get to be who they are.

Andrew: We have, we have quickly decided that Black and Brown kids are not safe, and we have not decided that the curriculum we're teaching our kids is not safe.

Dr. Val: Correct. Yeah. We're doubling down on the curriculum.

Andrew: Yeah. I think, I think there are, there are probably some White folks that we're not gonna reach with a message of, it's time to change how you think about safety. And I think there are a lot of White folks who need a nudge.

Dr. Val: To be safe in schools. Fully, to be fully safe in your whole identity,

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: is something that we should aim for. That when we say your kid is safe at school, it is both from physical violence, emotional violence, bullying. You know, discrimination along any marginalized identity. When we say your kid is safe at school, it means all of that.

And those things cannot just be taken care of by going through a metal detector.

Andrew: Yes. Yeah, 100%. And the other thing that comes to my mind in this conversation is once again, we are asking schools to solve society-wide problems. And, there is certainly no amount of, you know, quote unquote fortifying of schools that is going to meaningfully address the problem of there being way too many guns in this country.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Like, that is a society-wide problem that we have to, as a society, decide we are going to do something about, because we can't continue to ask schools to try to fix that.

Dr. Val: No, no. It's not fair to our young people. It's not fair to our educators.

Andrew: Yeah. The idea is not, “Let's take the threat of school shootings less seriously.” The idea is, “Let's add to the list of serious things that we're concerned about, these other dimensions of school safety.”

Dr. Val: Absolutely. And let's make sure in advocating for our, our own young people's safety, that we have expanded our definition, so that every kid feels safe in that school. Because every kid deserves that.

Andrew: Alright, Val, end of the episode. I know, you're in your feels, but action steps.

Dr. Val: You know, as, as difficult as these conversations are, sometimes I, I am thankful to engage in them with you, sir. Uh, I really am. Because you have provided me a safe space to be my whole self and I don't take that for granted. So thank you very much for doing that.

One action step that I think is important, and I think we started here today, is expanding our ideas of school safety. So, you know, we're about to have dinner now I can go talk to my kids about, like, what does it, what does school safety mean to you?

And I'm thinking that's even something that as a parent at a global majority school, if a White parent said, “Hey, does your kid feel safe at school?” I would feel okay engaging in that conversation and being able to explain, the more than one dimensional way in which my kid may not feel safe at school.

So, for this episode in particular, I think an action step of talking about it is really significant. That feels really important. How about you?

Andrew: I sort of see, see it like a, a sort of two-fold action steps. One. One is for White and privileged parents not to opt out of a school because of the excuse of safety. To, like, recognize that all schools have the potential to cause harm. And all schools have the potential to be places where kids can find safety and freedom to, to be themselves.

And I think the ways that we typically think about what makes a safe school, are not great ways to judge whether a school is actually fulfilling that mission or not. You know?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: So don't use it as an excuse to opt out of a school. And then when you do show up in that school, you know, make sure that you're showing up for whole kid safety.

Make sure that you're engaging in those conversations. Hey, does your kid feel safe here? Here are some ways that my kid might not feel safe here. How does your kid not feel safe here? Making sure that we're, like, privileging the voices of those who are most impacted. And then, and then, yeah! I mean, like we talked about in the last episode, eventually once you have shown up, once you have listened, once you have stayed put, then, like, speaking up and advocating like, “Hey, I feel like the, you know, the reading assignment is not super safe.” “Hey, I feel like the bathroom policy is not super safe.” “Hey, I feel like the discipline that's being given out is not super safe.”

Because, particularly the (we talked about this about a bit last time as well), but the expectations that schools have for White parents, if I come in to talk to the principal about, and I'm concerned about safety.

Dr. Val: Oh, you are getting a meeting!

Andrew: Alarm bells are going off, right?

Dr. Val: You are getting a meeting!

Andrew: And so and so, the school is going to, by nature, privilege, my kids' safety anyway.

How do I, how do I make sure that I'm showing up and advocating for safety for all kids.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate you.

Andrew: I appreciate you!

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I'm sorry we got you in your feels.

Dr. Val: It's, it's life. I mean, it's good to feel.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And it's good to be in a place where, you know, we can talk about it and, and not feel alone. So I'm hoping that listeners out there who are kind of grappling with these same feels, don't feel alone.

Andrew: And if you don't feel alone, send us a voicemail about it!

Dr. Val: Oh please! We would love to hear your feedback!

Andrew: Go to the website IntegratedSchools.org. Click on the “send us a voicemail” button on the side, or just record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us podcast@integratedschools.org. You can also support our work by joining our Patreon, patreon.com/integratedschools.

Throw us a few bucks every month, help keep this enterprise going. We would be very grateful.

Dr. Val: Listen, share the podcast. Listen again, talk about it, read the transcript. Do the study questions. Um, we really want you to engage. This is not a one-sided conversation, so please take part.

Andrew: Absolutely. Val as always, it is a true honor and privilege to be in these sometimes hard and always thought provoking conversations with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.