S9E11: Show Up, Listen, Stay Put, Speak Up

S9E11 - Show Up, Listen, Stay Put, Speak Up

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver,

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Show Up, Listen, Stay Put, Speak Up.

Dr. Val: Ooh, that sounds familiar.

Andrew: Yeah, a brilliant friend of mine once said it, uh, her name was Dr. Val.

Dr. Val: Really!?

Andrew: And, uh, yeah, it was an evolution. So at Integrated Schools for a long time, we, we talked about show up, shut up, stay put. And, you know, this is really trying to push back on the things that we often see White and privileged families do, which is: A) not show up in global majority schools. But then if they do show up; talking a whole lot, trying to take over. So the second step was shut up. And then the third step is…

Dr. Val: [laughing] Not my words, y'all, not my words.

Andrew: [laughing] So the third step was stay put because, uh, often, you know, White and privileged families will show up in a school. We'll try to change it, take it over, and then if it doesn't work, we'll abandon the school. And so the idea was show up, shut up, stay put. Felt like a good counter to those tendencies. But I think we, we realized something that you helped us realize was that there is a limitation to that. Um, because just shutting up and just staying put doesn't actually make for better schools.

Dr. Val: Yeah, no, absolutely. We know the perils of remaining silent, and so as people who care about what's happening in our schools, I think it is important to use our voice to advocate for all young people.

Andrew: Yeah. That speak up part is really important and you know, it sort of, it sort of fits in with our theory of change. If you wanna check it out, it's on our, on the Integratedschools.org website. We think about this theory of change as contemplate, desegregate, integrate, advocate, and so what does that mean?

Contemplate: we've gotta change the ways we think about and talk about what it means to be a good parent. What it means to go to a good school, what it means to get the best for our kids, what our responsibility is to our community and to all the kids in our society. That is the contemplation part.

The next step is desegregate, and so we have to actually enroll our kids in schools. Because it is in enrolling in schools that we actually have the opportunity to know what's going on in schools firsthand.

And then we have to integrate. Cuz it's not enough to just show up. We actually have to become part of the community. And I think that piece is, is really crucial and we spend a lot of time talking and thinking about that.

But then that last step is advocate, and that is, you know, speaking up. And that's where things get tricky, particularly for White and privileged families, I think.

Dr. Val: Yeah. You know, as we were going through that list again, because the words that you used were very simple, it can seem like the process itself is simple, but each one of those steps takes a significant amount of energy and commitment and community to do well. And I imagine there are instances where you don't get it right when your kid is in elementary school. It might take until middle school or through high school in order for you to feel like you're in your groove in this work. And so that's just a point to, to share with listeners, that those four steps… you can list them off in 10 seconds, but it could take you 10 years to, to do that well. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, that's a great point. And I mean, I think we've, we've had over a hundred episodes, you know, focusing on each one of those steps. And we haven't had, we haven't had that many focusing on this advocate piece, which is why this episode today is really gonna focus on how we think about that advocating piece. And, we certainly don't arrive at clear, simple solutions, but, we definitely grapple with, you know, what, what does it mean to show up? What does it mean to speak up? Um, because it is an important piece of the puzzle.

Dr. Val: One thing I learned about speaking up that I like to share with folks is, you know, at first when you start to speak up, there's a significant amount of time between you thinking about speaking up and then you actually speaking up. It could be a whole week where you're like, dang, I should've said something. Dang, I should've said something. And you feel fearful around it. Or maybe nervous. Your hands start to sweat, et cetera. Uh, the more often you speak up, those physiological feelings don't go away. But the gap between the time you think about speaking up and the time that you do shortens, and so you're still nervous, you're still scared, you're still like, am I gonna say the right thing? But you respond more quickly, and I think that that practice equals more confidence. And you feel like you can, you can do it.

Andrew: Yeah, that's great advice practice. So the, the origin of this episode actually came from a voice memo. We always encourage listeners to send in their voice memos and Becky in Pittsburgh did, and this is what she had to say.

Becky: Hi Integrated Schools. My name is Becky. I'm a White mom from Pittsburgh. My daughters are in first and third grade, and they go to our neighborhood school that is majority Black, majority poor. Something that I have been wrestling with a lot lately that I would be curious to hear how others are wrestling with these issues are that tension of, you know, my kid's gonna be okay. And there are some real systemic inequities, and challenges that our school is facing.

So we go to this neighborhood school. It's been a pretty great experience in a lot of ways, but also a lot of challenges. We've had three, four principals or people wearing the hat of principal over the last three years, including a few months where we had no principal. We don't have a full-time nurse. Because we have all these like para shortages and subbing shortages, we've got teachers that are really stressed out. We've got whole classes missing recess. We have kids classes having silent lunch because they were too rowdy the day before.

There are just some real challenges that, that do make the school environment harder for kids to feel like, love and belonging, and to love school and to wanna come to school and learn. I'm just really wrestling with what are the things that you let go and what are the things that like, we do need to be fighting for, and we do need to be raising our voices and, and agitating, the folks in leadership around some of these things that our schools don't have.

All that just to say I'm really struggling with like, when do we say, ‘This is not okay.’ And when do we show up and shut up? I think it's a really hard tension to be in… to both wanna advocate for people to go to your school and also recognize that the school is not fair to kids.

Dr. Val: So we actually have a voice memo turned into a podcast.

Andrew: We do.

Dr. Val: That's so dope. That’s dope.

Andrew:And not only just turned in the topic, but we asked Becky to come on and join us for the conversation. Because it got us thinking here. It's something that, certainly I have grappled with very similar things and we hadn't really talked about it on the podcast, so we thought we'd have Becky come on, but we figured it couldn't just be Becky. So we wanted to bring in some additional backup. And, uh, that's when, once again, Val, you came through with one of your amazing friends.

Dr. Val: Well, you know, I know dope people. That's literally the story of my life, and so we invited Dr. Toutoule Ntoya, an education consultant, and most importantly in this conversation, a Black parent who advocates with and for Black students and Black parents in his school community.

Andrew: Yes. He brought great perspective. And yeah, like I said, we don't really get to… Clear, here's step by step how you should speak up, but certainly grapple with the challenges of what it looks like to speak up.

Dr. Val: I am really looking forward to this.

Andrew: Let's take a listen.

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Dr. Toutoule: Hey everyone, my name is Toutoule Ntoya. I'm out here in Southern California and I have two kids, a seven year old and a four-year-old.

Becky: I'm Becky, a White mom from Pittsburgh and I have two kids in first and third grade.

Andrew: And Toutoule, where do your kids go to school?

Dr. Toutoule: So the seven year old goes here locally. Uh, the four year old, I could not for the life of me, get him into their early ed program. So he's at a Montessori school, so he'll be in kindergarten next year. So he'll be in the district.

Andrew: Becky…

Becky: Yeah. At our neighborhood school, which is majority Black, majority poor, like 24% capture rate. A lot of folks have opted out of that neighborhood school.

Dr. Val: What's a capture rate?

Becky: So that's the people in the feeder pattern that go to that school.

Dr. Toutoule: Sounds like my district.

Andrew: Three out of four kids leave rather than going to that school.

Becky: Yes. Yes. And the demographics of the capture area does not represent the school, of course. Um, so it's disproportionally White and middle class folks are opting out of that school,

Andrew: Okay. So you both made the choice to opt for your local neighborhood public schools.

Dr. Toutoule: Yep. And you know, my wife and I were big proponents of public schools so we wanted to be able to send them to the public school, be able to impact their learning and for them to see kids that look like them and that they can feel a level of self-awareness. Cuz when I was younger, you know, there weren't a lot of Black kids. Like I remember in elementary school there was, I had two friends who were Black, three friends who were Black. So that was an interesting experience for me growing up and what it did for my own self-image. So I don't want my kid to have to go through that, my kids. So we're really making a very intentional effort at making sure that they're around people who look like them so they don't feel like they're an outcast because they're the only kid in the school with locks.

Andrew: Right, right. And Becky how'd you come to make that choice?

Becky: So I'm a social worker background. I right now do, uh, campaign work. I'm like a political strategist, I guess you could say. I'm trying to really own that title, but, we kind of came to the integrated schools conversation. My husband is a teacher and he's always taught in neighborhood majority Black, majority poor schools, and they lack some of the same opportunities that White or more affluent schools offer. They lack some of the same investment in resources.

So we've watched this dynamic of, of neighborhood schools not having, uh, what they need for kids. And so before we even had kids, we were like, if we ever have kids, we should send our kids to the neighborhood school. And um, lo and behold, we did have kids and then we had to actually do the thing that we said that we believed.

Dr. Val: Is neighborhood schools synonymous with the Black school? Because I hear like neighborhood schools… Do White neighborhoods not have schools in them? Like ? What? [laughing]

Dr. Toutoule: That's a great question.

Dr. Val: Like, I dunno.

Becky: Okay, so in like the city, uh, there are a few neighborhood schools that are not majority Black, but in Pittsburgh, almost all of them are majority Black. And a lot of White families will go to magnets or private.

Dr. Val: Yeah. No, and, and Andrew says neighborhood schools all the time too.

Andrew: The context varies cuz there are certainly, and I think, you know, in places that school choice is harder, you end up with neighborhoods that are more concentrating of privilege, right? Like if you're in a school system where you have to go to your neighborhood school, then the property values determine more where people live, there's less… I mean, you actually see this in research. There's less gentrification in neighborhoods where there is less school choice. Because when you say, when you say to White families, you can live in this, you know, diverse, hip, fun, artsy neighborhood with great food, and also send your kid across town to the still all White school, then that becomes very appealing. So people are like, oh, wow, yes, I'm up for that. But if you're like, you have to go to school where you live, then people are like, I'm gonna live in the suburbs.

Dr. Val: Gimme some of that energy that you're making with your face. What do you…

Dr. Toutoule: Yeah, that is, that's, that's the local district here. I used to work in another district that's maybe 20 minutes away. And a lot of parents would send their kids to these schools. And I remember folks were saying, yeah, you know, great city, but terrible schools. I was like, wow, that's, that's not good. And then when you get here, you're like, oh, okay. So all of the people of color, live in this part of town and that's where they send all their kids. But if you go to the other side of town that's very affluent, and those schools are where all the White parents and their students. So if you look at the neighborhood schools, and where I live in this part here, it's all Black and Brown. And the neighborhood schools across town, eh, you might see some sprinkling of pepper here and there. But for the majority…

Dr. Val: You did not call me pepper. [laughing]

Dr. Toutoule: Sorry, different shade of pepper. Different shade of pepper, okay. Mocha, coffee, coffee ole, mocha, mocha…

[everyone laughing]

Dr. Val: I will be. I will be pepper from here on out. Go ahead. Love it.

Dr. Toutoule: So then when you start to think about gentrification and redlining and the discrepancy and achievement and all that stuff, you're like, wow, all baked into the batter and it's frustrating. So we have to like, do something about it.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. Becky. I have a question. Just listening to what Toutoule talked about with his school experience. Are you worried about that at all with your young people's experience and their sense of identity?

Becky: So it's interesting. Yeah, so they, they have a lot of like White and Black people around them, like my families are all White. And our friends, we have diverse groups of friends, so they're not only having one experience. And I mean, our school's like 20% White, so there's a couple White kids in every class. But they are like, I want, I want braids in my hair. You know, like they're, they like, they would like Black hairstyles. And so we are like, well, um, I will give you like four braids max. I'm not gonna do more than that. And that is a fine, wonderful thing to explore and figure out for themselves. So I don't know. I think it's interesting.

I had such a different upbringing that I, I think that like, you know, if we're like, somebody new is coming over to dinner, they're like, are they White or Black? And I'm like, I never would've asked that question cuz I would've been like, obviously they're White. And so I never would've even considered what race are they? Um, so they're just like having a more mixed race, normal experience, which is a really wonderful thing. And like at our school, we have a Black history concert, you know, things that are centering the Black experience that I'm not sure they would get at the majority White magnet school

Dr. Val: I'm sure they would not get it. [laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: I'm a hundred percent sure they would not get it.

Becky: And the conversations we're having, I mean it's, it's very cool to see how much their, like racial awareness, where it's at now versus where I was even into college.

Andrew: I mean, I, I think about that question I was one of a very small handful of White kids in elementary school, and I feel like I've got like, little hints of what you're talking about Toutoule, right? Of like not quite fitting in, of not knowing exactly where I belonged. But, I don't know that I would've necessarily been able to articulate this in any way then. But looking back, it felt like a gift because the stakes were much lower. You know, I still left school into a White America, and the administrators and the teachers were still mostly White in the school. White culture still permeated the school. Amongst the students on the playground there were places where I felt like, oh, like maybe I'm not the standard. Maybe I'm not like, default. Which to me feels like sort of a gift in the end. But I think that that's a, you know, that's, that's like part of this sort of White privilege in some ways, right? Is that like, I could have that experience in elementary school and there was no way that I was going to come away from that, like questioning my own value as a White person which, which I do think is like a, a tension and a difference between the experience for a White kid versus a, versus a Black kid.

Dr. Toutoule: Yeah. It wasn't as accepting for me, and there was no connection, there was nothing that I could look to and say, ‘Oh yeah, that's me. I'm, I'm, I'm connected with that.’ And, you know, I, I felt a little, I, I didn't know at the time, but felt really restless and not knowing which direction to move.

I feel like there was, in the eighties with the crack epidemic and everything, there was a mass exodus of Black families out of the cities into the suburbs. And, I never really thought about it when I was growing up, but like our story, my parents were immigrants. They moved into the city. We lived in a one bedroom apartment. Moved on up like the Jeffersons. We moved to a two bedroom apartment. Thought we were doing some things. My dad hated the fact that, you know, there was drugs in the neighborhood, there were gangs, so what did we do? We move on up and we move on out to the suburbs. And when we moved was the neighborhood when we moved out here was mostly White, um, and some Latino families, not very many Black families.

So in elementary school it… like I said, it was probably five of us and like self-image, your hair, things that I like to do, things that I'm into… Uh, we were a foreign family and I'm never gonna forget one day they were asking about foods. What foods do you like? And you know, people you know were I like this, I like that. And I was like, ‘Yo, we make this, these bomb… They're like…’ I didn't, I didn't know what to call 'em in, in English. I was like, …’they're like bananas.’ The kids are like bananas. What are they, and they're plantains,

Dr. Val: Love plantains.

Dr. Toutoule: I didn’t know what they were called. I call 'em bananas. And you know you mean you love bananas? I'm like, you fry bananas. So I had no language for it. So, you know, things like that always made me feel, you know, some kind of way. So I never felt connected to anything at my school. Uh, and when I went to middle school, um, LA Unified, come to find out, had this big busing program and they would bus a bunch of kids from the city into the valley. So a bunch of Black kids were at the school, like just out of nowhere. Like, it was like night and day. I woke up one morning and a bus full of Black kids got off the bus. I'm like, whoa. Wow. And I became friends with them and it became really cool.

And for high school, intentionally… I didn't wanna go to the neighborhood school so I had to get bused across town. And my bus ride every day was about an hour, hour and a half. And same thing at that school. Majority Black. Most of my friends were coming from LA bused in, but that's when I kind of felt more connected because there were more Black students at that school. So it kind of turned around for me a little bit there. And that's why I want my, my son to be a part of some type of, uh, a Black experience so he doesn't have to go through, you know, some of this things that I went through in terms of image and all that stuff, and just, just breed that self-confidence in him now.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: What was your schooling experience like growing up Becky?

Becky: All White private K to 12. So, I mean, high school was a little more diverse, but it was, yeah, I mean… small. I mean, it was 28 kids in our class, K to eight, the private school down the street. I never even rode the bus. It was very different. I grew up in the country, in, in eastern Pennsylvania, and same for my husband. He had the same type of schooling experience.

Andrew: When were you radicalized? When did you decide? What was it in your, in your past that you were like, oh, actually that thing that I had was not because I… cause I'm sure your parents sacrificed to be able to give you that experience and that was considered a very valuable thing that they invested in you. What was it that kind of made you decide maybe that's not what I want for my kids?

Becky: I mean, when I moved to Pittsburgh, I got more engaged in racial justice work and educating myself. And, and so as I learned more about some of the dynamics and the ways that our systems are working to perpetuate these inequalities that are just like, if you do nothing, they just continue to perpetuate. And then, you know, like I said, my husband teaching in neighborhood schools and seeing like it's not that the kids don't wanna learn and that the kids can't learn. It's that we are creating our schools in ways that are not providing them spaces to really thrive.

So I think we saw that, he saw that from the inside in ways that made it… it's like you can't, once you pull back the curtain, you can't unsee it. And then you like, Nikole Hannah-Jones who's like, lays it all out for you in this beautiful way that changes you forever. Um, or for me. And you just, you just can't unsee it.

Dr. Val: Toutoule, I know you do some advocating, as a parent and with other parents. Can you talk a little bit about that work and why it matters?

Dr. Toutoule: Yeah. So there is an African American Parent Council here locally and I knew some people in the district, and they pointed me to the AAPC and I started going to their meetings and, you know, it was just interesting that, you know, there was a group here locally that was advocating for, for Black parents. So they asked me to be on the board and I was like, ah, sure, I'll be on the board. So I did it. And our work has really changed. I felt like when I first started, and this is my opinion, so if anybody in AAPC listens to this and gets mad at me, this is my opinion.

[everyone chuckles]

So, I felt that when we started, it was very adversarial. We were really like… ‘The district, you guys are doing this for our Black kids. We demand. We demand, we demand.’ And over the years that we've been working with the district, we've actually grown to be more collaborative. Like now they're listening to our input, they're listening to things that we have to say. And one of the big things that we're all really proud of… we took a look at the suspension rates in the district. And of course, just like any other district in the country, I, I'd put money on this, that wherever you have Black students, they're gonna make up more of the suspensions in the schools. Just is what it is. There’s research behind the data.

So we saw that and we pushed to eliminate discretionary suspensions. So like, a kid mouthing off at a teacher doesn't cause a suspension. A kid, you know, being defiant, maybe he's not bringing a backpack to school or whatever the case may be, doesn't warrant a suspension. Like major things. Bringing a weapon to school, fighting, those kind of things. Yeah, of course we have to do what we have to do to keep people safe.

So we pushed to eliminate discretionary suspensions, and we got some traction. So, you know, that's been really good to see that, as a parent organization, that we're able to advocate for this, push for it, keep the district accountable. And it wasn't adversarial. It wasn't us against you. It wasn't pointing fingers that you guys are failing our kids. It was, here's the data, here's what we see, what are you gonna do about it? And the district kind of stepped up. The fact that as a parent I can say, ‘Yo, this is what we're looking for. This is what I'm doing, this is what's gonna happen.’ And we can push for that and we can push as hard as we need to until things start to move. So I'm really excited about the work that we're doing.

Andrew: Can you talk about the role of White parents in that work?

Dr. Toutoule: Yeah. So I was listening to a radio show and I can't remember who it was, but he was talking about the Civil Rights Movement. And the question was, well, what are some things that we could have learned from the Civil Rights movement? And one of, and really resonated with me. He said, “We became so pro-Black and into the movement that we pushed out some of the folks that we needed to be allies on our side.” Um, so what type of coalitions can you build because you need the coalitions. We don't have the resources. We don't have the manpower to flip the system by, by ourselves. We just don't. So you need those coalitions. So that really stuck with me. You need the coalitions, you need a clear message.

So how then do we get those, and I call 'em co-conspirators. How do we get those co-conspirators to know that this is a problem, this is a problem that we need to solve and we need to make things equitable for our students. And what can we do? And, you know, I think it's important to know what it is… the problem, the challenges are that folks of color are having. And, you know, what is my role in that and how can I fit in? And I think also on the organizations that are, you know, like ours, like how do we open the doors so folks can feel welcome to come in and they can be, you know, co-conspirators with us. They can maybe help us push some initiatives forward in the district if we're not getting enough. Hey, maybe they know someone who we should be talking to. So, you know, I think having those folks alongside with you is really important in pushing this forward. Cuz without that, I mean you're, you're kind of going uphill with just one paddle and it's, it's not enough.

Dr. Val: If you're paddling up a hill, that's really hard.

Andrew: That's a bad sign. Something's gone dreadfully wrong if you're paddling up a hill.

[everyone laughing]

Dr. Val: Yeah, if you're paddling up a hill. Yeah. All types of problems.

[laughing continues]

Becky: I have a question for Toutoule. So in your district, do you see big disparities, like between the opportunities between schools, like…

Dr. Toutoule: Oh absolutely.

Becky: …and, and do you address that or are you just like fighting for the better things? Or are you also sort of calling out the disparities and trying, like, how are you dealing with that?

Dr. Toutoule: So it’s like an elephant, right? You have to eat it one bite at a time. There's so many things like, we have this math program here, probably 1% of the student body's Black, right? There's this suspension thing, there's opportunity gap in English and math, right?

So I mean, there's just so much to take on. We decided, we, we just we're deciding to take on one at a time. And, you know, once that gets done, get that under control, move onto the next thing, get that under control. But at the same time, starting those conversations in different places. So it's not just us who are pushing the envelope, but other folks are also having the conversation so we can all galvanize and, and make a difference.

Dr. Val: If in my district, if we tried to address the disparities between schools, I don't even know how much traction we could get because they are like so far apart when you look at the affluent schools and Black and Brown neighborhood schools. In terms of facilities, advanced course offerings, electives, resources…

Dr. Toutoule: Yep.

Dr. Val: …like that feels like a mountain that will be really difficult to climb. And I know those affluent schools aren't giving up anything. Like I know that's not gonna happen. And I'm not sure we have the time to wait for us to get all the resources to equalize that, that playing field in that way. Um, Yeah. That's tough. Cuz when I think about the different schools, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's not even, it’s not even close.

Dr. Toutoule: And there's so much, Val, there's so much. And if you try to do it all,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Toutoule: it becomes overwhelming. But can you do one thing? Sure. Let's do it.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, one thing that we encourage folks, particularly folks like Becky and I that do hear about it, is to enroll our kids in our neighborhood schools. But there are ways in which that can feel somewhat counter-cultural, particularly if three out of four families are not making that choice who live in your neighborhood. Becky, this is a choice you made, do you remember your kid's first day of school?

Becky: Um, I was so nervous and, and I'm like embarrassed to admit, but the whole like month of August, I had a sore neck, like, I was doing heat pads and the first day of school, my kid comes home, gives it a 10 outta 10. She loved it. My sore neck was gone like that. Like I was feeling my angst, I was feeling it in my body.

Dr. Val: What do you think that angst was about?

Becky: Yeah. So most of the families that we knew didn't go to that school. We were friends with a lot of folks in that capture area in our neighborhood. And, I don't know how much other people experience this, but when you send your kid to the school that most people have said is not good enough for my kid, you hear a lot of obnoxious things. Like, “it's crazy over there, you know, that school is failing and you're allowed to go to a different school.” And, you know, lots of things that, um, like fed into already my perceptions, my assumptions, my, you know, that you're trying to combat in yourself. Um, classism, racism, the things that you know, is my kid gonna be okay here?

Andrew: One, and then one day the kid comes home, is like, oh, ‘actually the school was great.’

Becky: This was a great school. Oh my goodness. And I'm like, yeah, you're fine. These are kids. For kids they're our community. Like why in the world have I been so nervous? Um…

Andrew: Mm-hmm. So you've been part of your school community for a couple of years now? Three or four years, I guess. A couple of those were pandemics. I don't like dunno exactly how to, how to count all that time. But, you were surprised a little bit at how great the first day was… big release of tension. What, what have been some other sort of surprises over the time you've been part of the school community?

Becky: Yeah. So my kids have made great friends. I've built some community with some families there though some have left. I mean, one of the things about a neighborhood school is more people move or go to different schools. So there, you know, some of those families have, have since left. And then, you know, the pandemic did create, it was a little bit harder to build those relationships with other families, and we're starting to get back to that again, like playing on the playground after school and hanging out a little bit.

But yeah, so my, I mean, my kids have great friends there and we've met some really great teachers and staff. I mean, they've already both had three Black teachers and they're in first and third grade and, right. That's not, this school has done a really great job of having Black administrators and teachers and that has been a really cool thing about it. But there are also a lot of really hard things about the school, like we've had four principals in three years and several months with no principal and…

Dr. Toutoule: Wow.

Becky: Like my kid didn't have a third grade math teacher for almost two months because she left. And while they had lots of time to know and replace, they just, the district was not supporting our school to get this new teacher. So then she's like spending time in second grade. Like they're splitting the kids up when there's not enough subs. We don't have like a gym teacher cuz they're out. And so like, kids aren't having gym or the teacher is just like, let's go outside. You know, like there's a lot of challenges. And so, so some of the fight that I feel sometimes is like, we need to look at this and see how much of a disservice we're doing to some of our schools and I know this is happening at schools across the district and like, we need a nurse. But these nine schools also need a nurse like…

Dr. Val: Yeah. You know I think what maybe some of these decision makers are banking on is that, , the caregivers and parents at these schools that are under-resourced don't know how well the other schools have it. And frankly, you don't always, you just assume like, this is the schooling experience that I have.

So my high school had barbed wire fence around it. Ah, that's what I thought all high schools did. I mean, who knows, right? And so I'm wondering how much of allowing these types of discrepancies to happen are hopes that oh, they don't actually know what the other schools have. And so Toutoule, to your point, staying connected or getting connected across coalitions across the district is one way to say, “Hey, no, we know our district can provide these services cuz they do provide these services to this school. How do we do a better job of making sure that everyone in our district is able to access them?”

Andrew: I mean, to me , this is like the last step in the benefits of integration, right? It's like the reason that we say, well, that, like those schools are never gonna give that stuff up, is because that is where the political power lies. That is where the district is going to be most responsive because those are the White privileged parents who are going to, you know, cause a stink if you ask them to give something up. They're going to, threaten to move to the private schools, threaten to move to the city next door to the suburbs. They're gonna take their precious White kids out of the school system. And so the district, you know, for fear of White flight, which I feel like drives so many decisions in school districts, whether explicitly or, or implicitly, is like, we have to do whatever we can to keep the White families in the district.

And the hope, at least in pushing for White and privileged families to invest in the neighborhood school in the under-resourced school, is that we start to put some of that political capital into those schools and now we start to shift the way that decisions get made. But I think that one of the challenges in that is, I mean, one of the challenges is the, like, you know, the saviorism, like, I, you know, I, I can't go to this school to try to save this school. And then, and then the, the thing you said earlier Toutoule that I've been thinking about is like, we have to know what the problems are and, and, I feel this struggle. I know, Becky feels this struggle is like, how do I know what the real problems are? Because I have all sorts of ideas baked into my mind about what a good school should be. And it doesn't have barbed wire. And yet your school that had barbed wire was a great school for you.

Dr. Val: Oh, I loved it. Oh my gosh, I loved it. I had a great time. I have great self-concept. You know?

Andrew: So like, you know, I, I could show up in your school and be like, the barbed wire, this is terrible. It has to go away. My vision of a good school does not include barbed wire. And then I could rally, you know, a handful of other White parents and we could go and tear down the barbed wire. And now actually maybe your school's not as safe. And it, we didn't, we haven't done anything to actually improve your, your school experience.

And so there's this tension of like, you know, I show up in this school, I want the school to be better. There are things that are great about the school. It is surprising, like all the messages that I've received from my White friends about this is a terrible school for my kids. I, okay. So now I've set that aside because actually they showed up in the school and they’re, it's a loving environment. There's kids, it's like not, hellscape of a school actually. It's really lovely. Cool.

But also then you're in the school for a little while and you're like, wow. Like our computer lab is at our elementary school. The computer lab is like eight Windows 98 machines that are like duct taped together that no one's allowed to touch except for when testing happens, right? Because they have to work for testing and you're not allowed to use computers otherwise, right? The school around the corner has like all brand new iMacs, like, okay, like that some, something doesn't seem right here. So I feel like I don't trust my instincts about what is good or bad about a school. And so like how do I know what are the things that do matter to go advocate for and what are the things that don’t?

Becky: Can I add something really quick of examples? Like when teachers are making the kids have silent lunch, cuz they were too loud and rowdy the day before or when the whole class loses recess or, the bathrooms you cannot take, go to the bathroom except on bathroom breaks. The bathrooms are locked. You know, like there are things that's like, this doesn't feel good for kids, but like how much of that is my own whatever of what I, how I define a good school and how much of that is, yeah, this isn't good for kids. What are we doing that we have not created a school where kids always get recess and get to go to the bathroom when they need to go? You know?

Dr. Val: I can say those things do not make for good pedagogy, um, and not a loving place for young people. We don't want those things.

Dr. Toutoule: No. And I was just thinking about groups like ours and how important having these advocacy groups are, because these things are what's gonna matter to us. Right? And is the barbed wired fence at Valerie's school a big thing? No, don't take the barbed wired fence down. We got a computer lab running Windows 98. We have to figure out, right?

So there's some real problems happening that are really impacting our kids. And if you're not part of that community. I can advocate all I want, but if I don't know, don't hear it from the, from the mouths of the people. Like I'm not, I'm just speculating and now I'm going, and I got a friend who has a construction company and we talked to the principal. The principal said, do it. I don't care. Get the thing. And then we tear it on the barbed wire fences, we feel good about ourselves. And other parents are like, what? You put all that into that?

Dr. Val: You wasted your time, right?

Dr. Toutoule: Yeah. What are you doing?

Dr. Val: Yeah, that's totally what would happen.

Dr. Toutoule: Right? We, we….

Dr. Val: That's totally what would've happened.

Dr. Toutoule: So like, you know, for us and our local situation, the suspension thing we thought was a big deal. So like, yo, let's galvanize around this. Okay. Now we're all in this together instead of you're doing something way over there. And we're like, who's that? Why is he doing that for? That, that doesn't make any, um, okay, whatever. Right. And it's not a cohesive message. So I think, I think looking for that and if something like that doesn't exist, like, ask the parents, they'll tell you what, what needs to happen. And then once you start to galvanize and start to engage the parents, you'll get all the answers that you need. And then I think that that could be the starting point.

Dr. Val: I also wanna challenge White folks to be more concise in their language. And so when you hear things like, oh, it's not a good school, and just leave that thought at that and don't explain like why they say it's not a good school. So if you say it's not a good school because the children are treated like they are in prison, and the city or the district hasn't invested the same amount of money for technological resources, then I think that, hopefully, this is a hope, would help to develop some critical thinking around like, why this is the case, right?

So if a person said that to me like they treat kids like they're in prison, you know, my, my next question would be, well, like, why are they doing that and why are they allowed to do that? And so, and then that makes me want to advocate for a change versus just saying, ‘Oh, it's just not a good school.’ So when you hear other White people say that, ask them the next question, like, what do you mean by that? Can you be more specific? Why do you think that is? Right? Um, and not just take it at face value, like, oh, it's just not a good school. Um, yeah, no. Mm-mmm.

Dr. Toutoule: The school isn't bad because of the kids.

Dr. Val: No.

Dr. Toutoule: School is bad because of the system. So what piece of the system are we talking about? Is it the communication of parents? Is it the rollout of the curriculum? Is it how the kids are treated during lunch or the, you know, what is it? Because, you know, I think too many times when we talk about our neighborhood schools, we always point to the kids and I can't tell you how many times I've heard parents don't care.

[Becky, Andrew, and Val voice their agreement]

Parents don't care. Kids don't care. Nobody cares. That's why the school sucks.

Becky: That’s just not true. Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah. So.

Dr. Toutoule: That's a popular message.

Dr. Val: Another question for my White friends here. Do you all like, learn about the system? Like do you talk about the system? Cause I feel like that is a common theme in Black communities. Like we're like, we don't blame ourselves for this. Right? Like we're able to identify it as a systemic issue, but is that something that is common in conversation with… just among White folks? Give us the secrets.

[Andrew laughs]

Dr. Toutoule: The secrets. Please… let me take notes.

Andrew: The White, the White secrets.

Dr. Val: Yes. I want some.

Becky: That feels like a big question. I think that White people who are trying to care about racial justice issues, um, I think that there is conversations about how it is the system. However, I think that as long as you keep the system at an arm length, you never actually have to confront how you actually are believing how it's interacting with kids.

Right. So like before I started school, I was nervous about kids in the school, like, how is this gonna go? And then I get there and I'm like, the kids are great. We actually have a school system that doesn't quite have what it needs. And so there are ways that we're not supporting our students in ways, especially some of our high needs students. They're not getting what they need. And so like I think as you confront your own things and experience it in a personal way, then you can, then you can interrogate the system in a different way. We can like read the talking points and understand. But when you live it, yeah…

Dr. Val: So like in your K-12 experience, your parents weren't like, oh wait, here's how the system works.

Becky: Oh my goodness.

Dr. Val: Cuz my earliest memories of talking about it included like a… An approach, like a lens from a systems standpoint.

Becky: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I think there is something like healing about that. Like, like it's, it's important to your soul to look at the, like, the world around you and, and be able to point to the systemic issues.

And, and I think conversely it's like important for White people's souls, not like for the good of humanity, but like for like an individual White person to ignore the systems, right? Because, because it's, it's damaging to look at the state of the country and recognize that both, that it is systemic, but then also like that you are part of that system. And I think, I think you're exactly right, Becky. It's like the arms length, there is this like new awakening among White people of a recognition of systemic racism, right? And, and now like obviously the predictable backlash to that as well, the discomfort that that causes.

But there is now, there is some level of awareness that it is more than just, your uncle with a Confederate flag that is like racism. But that racism has some, some like systemic elements. But I think even still there is like an arms length, like yes, that is that system, but like what do I have to do with that? I'm a good White person. I'm not doing that. I'm just sending my kid to the environmental charter school. Like what does that have to do with the systemic racism? To me this is the, this is again the power of, of the school that your kids are in, Becky, the school that my kids are in is that it is now… I intimately see the way that I am part of the system. So it's like one thing to acknowledge that there is a system, it's another step to say like, wait a minute, I am also part of this.

Dr. Toutoule: That's important. I think you were like immersing yourself in a system because part of White privilege is that I have options. I could, I don't have to go to neighborhood school. I can send my kid across town and it's all good. But for me, where else am I gonna go? I can’t, well, not me personally. I think I'm very privileged and Val, I think you would, you would, I don't wanna put any words in your mouth, Dr. Brown, but I'm sure you would say the same thing.

Dr. Val: I mean, we both have doctorates on here.

Dr. Toutoule: We both have doctorates, I, I, I mean, there's a, and we're in education, so we know how to navigate the system but the majority of Black folks in a city, they don't have that same level. So if the school down the street sucks, sorry Johnny. I sucked it up. You gotta suck it up, right? And nothing ever gets changed. No one, no one ever comes through the system and says, yeah, the system does suck. It's Johnny and Johnny's dad and Johnny's grandfather, they all didn't care about school. So they deserve what they get.

And I think it's, it's easy for White folks who aren't in it to just say, well, if they just worked harder, if they just went to class, they stopped ditching, if they stopped acting up, they stopped playing that loud rap music and put their, picked their pants up and, you know, not spent so much money on them, Jordans, and, you know, went and bought a calculator, (dating myself,) went and bought a TI-85 calculator and, you know, all of that stuff. They'd be better like my kids are and that totally erases what's happening and the experiences that's happening to all those Black families in that district. And it's never gonna change unless we change it.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yeah. You do all this work to tool with organizing Black parents in schools to try to, you know, create some sense of possibility and effective advocacy in an individual school context. I mean, I struggled when I first got to the school to know like, well I'm here, I'm ready to be involved. I want to help. Where should I put my energy? How do I know like when to show up or where to, where to speak up?

Dr. Toutoule: So there, there's a couple of different things that I'm thinking about. Like, bringing up inequities that you're seeing. I'm thinking those conversations need to happen, and it can't always come from the teacher that looks like me and Val. Right. It has to come from you, Andrew, who you can step up and say, this doesn't seem right.

And even for me, like being able to, uh, Valerie, when you started that Clear the Air thing, there were some conversations that I was reluctant to have and just through our conversations I was like, wow, I need to bring that up. Because that wasn't cool when the principal said that or when the teacher said that. So the next time it came up, I had questions. I'm like, okay, well why do you think that? And what is the evidence behind this? And are there other students? Right? So I think just asking. And let me tell you something, Val, I don't know if you know this is your superpower, but she is the best at asking questions whenever she wants to poke and prod. She'll ask a question, after a question, after a question, and then truth comes to light. So I've been trying to take that approach, just asking questions, not being upset, not saying, huh?

Dr. Val: Help me out… Help me understand…

Dr. Toutoule: Yeah. All this, all these Black kids sitting here getting suspended. I have a question, ‘I noticed’ is typical Valerie, ‘I noticed that there are five African American students who aren't in class. What's happening? Help me understand that.’ Right? And just go through and ask 'em the question. I think that, and it's, and it's, it's not as confrontational on your end, but I think it still forces the conversation as if it were like you busting in and waving your fist.

Dr. Val: Uh, I appreciate that. Andrew, to your question, two things came up for me. One, and I think the challenge is whether or not you trust your own assessment of what's right and wrong. And so obviously being in relationship and community would be an important gauge for you in that. And then my other wondering was, are you responding in a way that's authentic? And I think being in relationship will help you kind of hone that authenticity. And if you and I are talking and we're noticing these things and you're bringing that up and then, and you decide to show up authentically as who you are, right? If, if that means like write a, write a mean letter or galvanize some businesses or whatever it is, I think that's really important, for White folks to do. Like, just be yourself, how, how you would show up and, and try to make sure it's informed by actual relationships of the people that are, are there, you know?

Dr. Toutoule: I love the community piece, like be in community, because the community will tell you which direction that's, that's brilliant.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Becky: Well, and sometimes like I've asked some questions about like, why is everyone missing recess? Like, what's happening? Do we not have enough people to monitor? Like, what's going on? And then my kid gets to be an exception. I was volunteering there one day and they were like, most of the class had to wait five minutes. And like, she could pick one person and they could go. And I was like, what is happening? You want a good experience for your kid and all the kids. So there are, there are pitfalls to this. We have to advocate in ways that's like, I don't just want this for my kid. So, yeah, I think it's challenging. And I, you know, at our school, I think it's like 21% of Black students are at reading level in third grade. And for White kids it's like 33%. For both, it's pretty low. And when you talk to parents, like my kid struggling to read is a big concern. And so it's like, which are the things that are affecting that the most? What do you fight for? Uh, and sometimes it, for me, has just been like that big, the obvious stuff that our school is lacking, trying to fight for, but it's bigger than that. You know, it's, it's…

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Becky: …it's a lot.

Dr. Val: It is a lot.

Andrew: It's an, it's an, it's an elephant. Yeah. I mean, like Toutoule said, right? It's an elephant and you have to eat it one bite at a time, but which bite do you eat first? Because yeah, like the kids aren't reading. So like, is that about curriculum? Probably. Is that about, you know, teacher training? Probably. Is that about, they're frustrated cuz they didn't get any recess and so now they can't concentrate because they got too much energy probably. Is that because like their food is not actually healthy? Probably. Is that because there's barbed wire around their school and it's giving them the idea that they're in prison and not in school? Probably, where do you like take the first bite?

And I think something else that you said, Becky made me think is like the… it is tricky because the expectations that the school system has around White parents, you know, in all the ways that, that the school system expects Black parents not to care. The school system expects White parents to care and be loud and obnoxious. Right. And so, and so the expectation is that we're gonna show up and cause trouble. And so if you show up and you're like, ‘Hey, I really, it really seems like a problem to me that the kids aren't getting recess.’ The easiest thing for the school to do is be like, oh, cool, like your kid can go to recess. The other kids still can't go to recess, but your kid can go to recess. And I think like the advocating at the district level feels really different to me because it feels much easier. Like those are decisions that are inevitably going to affect a whole lot of, a whole lot of kids.

But when I show up in the school, I'm also always aware of the expectation that the school's gonna have for, for what I'm demanding. And the inclination the system is gonna have to keep me happy. And, and there's a way to use that for good for everybody. And there's a way that like, I keep showing up and then the school's like, well, let's just like make sure that Andrew's kids get all of the best things, so that he'll stop coming in and bothering us . You know, like, let's make sure that his kid gets recess and his kid gets, uh, gets to talk during lunch. But maybe it doesn't actually like, flow out to all the kids.

Dr. Toutoule: That's pretty interesting. Val asked a question earlier like, what kind of things do y'all talk about? Like what are the expectations for White parents as opposed to Black parents? And like the anticipation that, well, we can't do this to this kid because they're gonna show up and, but for the Black parents, we know that they're not gonna show up. So if we knew they did, would that change how we treated? Like if those kids who were in that class, um, of yours or your daughter goes to school, if those teachers knew every single last, one of those parents would show up angry…

Dr. Val: They wouldn't do it.

Dr. Toutoule: Recess for all! We'll figure something else

Becky: I mean, one of the things that I struggle with is to call out the teachers. Like if I feel like you as a teacher are doing this, I wanna be the friend. I don't wanna be the person who's yelling at the teacher. I want everyone to like me. So I think I like need to find the courage to kind of approach those things and call those things out. I think, but for all kids, I don't, I don't know.

Dr. Val: I don't know if I've been much of a caller outer. I don't know how much progress I get from that. I think people just get defensive and then the conversation stops. I have to believe in order to keep, like in this effort, I have to believe that most people who are trying to educate our kids are trying to do their very best. And so that's why the collaborative nature feels more right for me, cuz I also wanna understand what is happening with you and for you and to you so that we can get this fixed together because everybody in the school should be happy and joyful and thriving.

Becky: I'm challenged by Toutoule… the group the things that they're doing. I'm working with an organization that we're really focused on calling out the district for failing to educate Black children at high levels. And this, you, you've made a lot of progress through your collaborative efforts and that just has me thinking about, like, what are the steps that we need to take to be collaborative and also unapologetic about our expectations for what the schools do. And just like continuing to be. We're not okay with these things. We have to keep speaking up, even though it's uncomfortable.

Dr. Val: Yeah. That was lovely.

Andrew: Thank you very much.Toutoule, Becky. It was a lovely conversation. Um, it was… we certainly didn't put a tidy bow on it, but, um, didn't, didn't expect to, uh, but really grateful for, for both of you sharing and, bringing your insight and your perspectives and, uh, being willing to come on the podcast. And yeah, look forward to having you back sometime.

Dr. Toutoule: Thanks for having us.

Becky: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me.

Dr. Val: It was a great, great conversation.

—------------------------------------

Andrew: So Val, what'd you think?

Dr. Val: Oh, man. You know, I, I love, I love listening to folks and you, and you, and I know that we could have kept that conversation going for much longer than we did, right. And I think it speaks to the need to have so many more of these conversations within our communities. People want to, and need to figure out how to talk about these things together. And so I just appreciate the podcast being an opportunity to, to bring folks around that.

Andrew: Yeah, and I'm also just, yeah, just so grateful to Toutoule and Becky for, for showing up, for being willing to, you know, Becky sent in a voice memo. Little did she know that, uh, next, next thing she knew her whole life story would be put out to the podcast audience. So, appreciate them both.

Dr. Val: That is not to deter voice memos. [laughing]

Andrew: No. Yeah, yeah. Come on, come on. Cuz hopefully, we gave her a space to process and have these conversations that she was clearly yearning for. But yeah, also just filled with gratitude that people are willing to come on and, and have these conversations with us cuz they're not always easy.

Dr. Val: Yeah. They did exhibit courage. One thing that um, stood out to me from the very beginning is how both of them wanted their children to have different schooling experiences than they had.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: And the, those schooling experiences that they had were primarily White schooling experiences. Yes.

Andrew: For both of them.

Dr. Val: Yes! For both of them. And they were like, ‘No, I want something different for my young people.’

Andrew: Yeah. I wanted a similar experience for my kids that I had, which was also not a primarily White school. We're trying to grow a movement of people who recognize that, this vision we have of good schools, which means White schools, is actually not good for our own kids and not what we want.

Dr. Val: Yeah, and I know that those decisions both for Toutoule and Becky, you know, had different roots, but I, what I gathered from both of them, is that it would allow their children to access their own humanity in a way that they deeply wanted for their children, whether it's like comfort in your own identity or comfort in the presence of others. It, for me, it spoke to accessing their own humanity. And I know we don't talk about that a lot on the show, but talk about an outcome…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …for advocating for integrated learning spaces.

Andrew: Yeah. Is there an outcome that could be more important than that? You know, both for, and again, is like one of the, one of the tensions that, one of the sort of like themes that kind of ran throughout the episode and that we do talk about a fair amount here is it's like, you know, is it good for me or is it good for society? And sort of it's, it's both, but neither too much. Right? But like, talk about an outcome that is good for your own kids if all you care about is your own kids, them being able to find their own humanity. Like what, what could be more important?

Dr. Val: What could be more important than that?

Andrew: And like, what kind of world do we create where all kids are able to find their own humanity, you know, initially in school, but then like, what are, how do we carry that forward and, what does society look like if all of our kids are going to school in spaces where they can find their own humanity?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Andrew: You know, that vision is very powerful and it’s certainly what drives, you know, my connection to this work and something you said back in the intro, which is like, that sounds nice, and those are kind of simple words, and yet the path to get there is hard, you know?

And a lot of this episode stemmed from Becky's grappling with the joy that she has found in her school community, and also the rage she feels at being part of the school community, at finding community, at truly integrating her family into the school community, and then recognizing all of these kind of systemic injustices.

And I think that, and she maybe was holding back a little bit of that like, you know, alternating between the rage at the system and then the grief. You know, there, there is a sacrifice. Her kid is not getting some things that they might be getting at at other schools. There's things her kid is getting that she wouldn't get at other schools. But there's also things, these systemic inequities that show up that she is now kind of looking at face-to-face. And it's hard, you know, like there are things about our schools that are, that are not good. And that feels like a kind of tough tension to live in.

Dr. Val: Yeah. What I am thinking about right now is that rage that you talk about, and I was trying to connect to my own feelings of rage in those instances and what I do with them. If I'm honest, that type of rage and those feelings of discontent are present in every aspect of being, I can say Black in America, I'm sure a person of color in America as well. Right. So, I have learned to function within it in a way that probably is why I'm having pause with even thinking about those feelings of rage. Cuz they are just, they are there, you know, they're baked in, right? And so, it feels like, because there's so many opportunities for that type of frustration with my lived experience, that I don't have the energy to fight literally in every aspect of my life about it.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: I have to, I can’t…

Andrew: You have to have made some peace with it or it would consume your whole life because it is everywhere.

Dr. Val: And there's no peace with it.

Andrew: Mm. Right, Yeah. You've had to like, right…

Dr. Val: Something has had to happen.

Andrew: Come, come to terms with your relationship with that rage

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, what's interesting to me about that is this, and you know, this, this comes back to this idea of, step two of our theory of change… Desegregate… is like, and this is something that you said in the conversation, right, is that there's a way in which White folks, in particular are encouraged not to know about the discrepancies that exist. That we don't see the huge gaps that exist between the resources we give to one school versus another.

And I think that there's a way in which that creates this kind of, you know, almost like shock to the White psyche when you arrive in a school and you see the discrepancies that actually exist. You know, there's like sort of a twofold shock. The first is like, oh, this is not actually the terrible place that I was led to believe it is. But then you get a little bit deeper, you get to be part of it and you're like, wait… But also the school down the block has, has two full-time mental health people. And my school has, you know, a two day a week intern, like, what's up with that? The school down the block gets five different enrichment classes for every kid, and my school can't afford an art teacher. What's up with that? And so there is this, this shock and something Becky said, you know, these systems that just perpetuate themselves, that the status quo is perpetuation. That one of the ways that happens is that we aren't aware, is that White folks don't have this constant sense of, these structures that are set up to be unfair, that are set up to perpetuate inequities. And so there is this, this moment of, you get inside the school and you show up in your school and you're like, oh yeah, there’s… Yeah. The White schools over there have more stuff. I'm not surprised by that. My rage at baseline continues to be at baseline because this is the, this is what it means…

Dr. Val: Baseline Rage, baseline Rage… [laughing]

Andrew: My baseline rage just like chills out and, and you know, Becky shows up. I have had similar experiences. I show up in a school and I'm like, what is this? This should not be the way the world works.

Dr. Val: Hmm. You know, if there's a two day a week intern at my school versus two full-time staffers at another school, I hope what every parent who decides to go to a global majority realizes about all the other parents there is that they don't love their kids any less…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: …right? So I am not sending you to a school that isn't fully staffed or doesn't have the best equipment because I love you less. And I think…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: …unfortunately, that becomes part of the narrative. That outsiders might think about like these school places. And I, you know, with Toutoule’s stories, I would make the argument that he loves his kids more…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: …because he doesn't want to spirit murder them, right? Or put them in a place where they question their identity. And he wants them to be whole. I regularly go back to the idea from the most recent remake of Roots. Um, the shame is not ours. The shame is not ours because the district hasn't decided to fully staff or to like fully fund… like that is not our shame. That is, that is someone else's shame. And I think part of the hope is that parents like us don't start talking to each other about the differences because then you have some explaining to do, and that's why like being in community with one another is really important.

Andrew: Yeah, 100%. There are so many stories that we tell as a society that try to put the shame on the most marginalized, right? The idea of meritocracy. The idea that if you work hard, you get ahead. The idea that everyone has a fair shot, that, that we have equal opportunity. All these are stories that we tell to deflect the shame. those who are most marginalized by it. And, we see that in schools all the time. And so you are like, oh, yeah, well, that, I don't know, like, I don't know why that school is terrible, but it must be that the parents don't care. It must be that the kids can't learn or don't wanna learn.

And I think this is probably the real power of desegregation, the real power of showing up in that school as quickly you look around and you see there's kids and there's love, and there's parents who care. The first shock of that is like, wait a minute. If that's true, if this is a school full of kids with parents who love them, who are trying to get the best for their kids, and there are these discrepancies that exist, then like, I can't put the shame on them. Now what? You know, and that's where now it's time for advocacy. Right now it's time to show up, and speak up and say this is not okay.

Dr. Val: Oh yeah. Talk about shaken to your whole core. You're like, wait a minute, wait one minute. Yeah, no, that's gotta be tough. That's gotta be tough.

Andrew: So, so it's, it's interesting because, one of the things that Integrated Schools does is this, it's called Caregiver Connection, where if you are thinking about enrolling your kid in a global majority school, we'll connect you with another parent who's been there, who's done that to provide this sort of sense of community and a support system. Right? So we, we, we posted about it on Instagram last week, and we got a comment from one of our followers that said there's something odd about White parents needing a support group for sending their kids to a diverse school. I'm a bit confused.

Dr. Val: Literally, I was about to say, look at y'all having scaffolds for people. Okay. Like y'all are trying everything possible to support White folks taking this leap. And I mean, that's a lot. And I imagine if your whole foundation has been taken away from you, you're gonna need some support. Right. Um, and I think for the majority, folks of color in this country, that type of support is most likely built in.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Where you've had multiple conversations about race and interacting with White folks and the talk and code switching. So, you know, I believe that support happens for communities of color too. I think it just feels surprising that White folks might not have that level of support with someone that they are currently connected to, that you are truly the only one in your network to do something like try to go to your neighborhood school. That, that just sounds outrageous when you say it out loud.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yep. The Caregiver Connection program is not minimizing the reality that, right, you have, you, you don't need a caregiver connection because this is built into your life because you have been grappling with it since the day you were born. And there are legitimately White people who have not been forced to think about race at all until they're, until ever maybe and I think, you know, providing a support system for that is important.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Yeah. And, and I, I do think it's probably easy to assume that those conversations happen all the time or, just not recognizing how many layers of support we have as folks of color. We have, just across racial difference so many things that we can connect to. And then so many experiences also that are like, oh…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: … White folks don't do that?

Andrew: Right? Yeah.

Dr. Val: There's no reason for me to know Sweet Caroline. Not a one, but I do. I do. [Andrew laughing, Val starts to laugh] No reason.

Andrew: I mean that, yeah, that's, that's the beauty, that's the beauty of these conversations for me, for sure. There's this other sort of tension in what Becky mentioned in her original voice memo, which is like, you know, part, part of the work of Integrated Schools is trying to convince White and privileged parents to send their kids to global majority schools. That's part of what we're doing here. And there's a way in which talking about the hard things that happen at the global majority school can feel sort of counter to that. The goal was never to like trick people into thinking that their experience was going to somehow be better than it is.

Dr. Val: Mmmm…

Andrew: That school integration is all easy and that you're only gonna find hidden gems in these integrated schools…

Dr. Val: Cotton candy clouds…

Andrew: Cotton, candy clouds… but there is a way in which kind of really looking at some of these inequities head on can, can discourage people. And I think, you know, to go back to what you said at the start of this conversation here is that what we have all opted for is moving away from all White schools. And so, you know, holding the challenges that global majority schools often face from underfunding to, you know, lack of enough teachers and principals and, and discipline policies that maybe aren't entirely beneficial for kids. We have to weigh those against the harms of all White schools, predominantly White schools. And, and what that brings along as well, because I think that, uh, otherwise we're not really making a fair comparison.

Dr. Val: I'm glad you brought up that point because I think, if I was White and a believer and I'm like, yes, okay. Integrated schools is telling me to show up, shut up, stay put. I think I would assume that it meant that it was gonna be easy.

Andrew: Mmmmmm.

Dr. Val: Or then…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …probably what it is and then to remind ourselves that going against the status quo is, is a challenge, right? It is. It's not the smoothest road.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: And I can see folks being discouraged when it's not the smoothest road. You told me to do this cuz it would be better for my kids. And this has been challenging. And so, you know, I also see this as an exercise. as caregivers, regaining our own humanity in ways that we may have lost it.

Andrew: Mmmhmm. Say more about that.

Dr. Val: Because the act of doing what you know is right, sticking with it, even when it's hard, teaching your young people how to adapt, advocating in the, in the face of challenges. That's all human work, and that is all work that I think is necessary for the future that we're trying to create.

Andrew: Yes. Yes, ma'am.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yes, indeed. Well, end of the episode, Val. Action steps. What are you taking away from this conversation?

Dr. Val: One thing that I wanna encourage folks to do is think about their own schooling and talk to their young people in an age appropriate way about their schooling experience and why they may be choosing a global majority school for their young people. I also want them, if they are facing challenges, not only assign that to, oh, this is because this is a global majority or a Black or under-resourced school, but that this is what it means to go against the status quo, or this is what systemic injustice looks like and feels like. And so not assigning it to the humans that are there in the building, um, as the source of the problem.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. That, yeah. The, the acknowledging our role in the system and putting the blame onto the system and then acknowledging our own role in the system. Like you said, it's not easy, it's not comfortable, but that's important. Important humanity affirming work for sure.

Dr. Val: How about you? What are your action steps after this?

Andrew: You know, I'm thinking, I'm thinking a lot about Toutoule and the organization he works with, the African American Parent Council in Pasadena. If there is an organization like that locally, wherever you are, find them and see what they need. Because we know that all families want a great education and want their kids to be successful.

Dr. Val: Every single one.

Andrew: We know that almost everywhere you turn, there are people who are fighting that good fight. And they may not have the resources, they may not have the fancy website, they may not be known to you and your network, but they're out there and they're fighting for kids. And so doing, putting in the work to go and find them and see what they need and see how you can help, feels like another great step.

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm just thankful. I'm thankful again for Becky for calling in and trusting us with a real concern and giving us an opportunity to bring some folks together to talk about it. Big ups Becky, thank you Toutoule for saying yes.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I learned so much from the conversation and I'm so grateful to both of them for showing up. And, listeners, grateful to you. Keep sending in your voice memos. We listen to them all.

Dr. Val: That's right.

Andrew: We love to hear, love to hear from you. Uh, go to the website integratedschools.org. There's a little button that says, leave us a voicemail on the side. You can do that, or you can just email us a voice memo from your phone... Podcast@integratedschools.org

Dr. Val: And then this is another opportunity for you to listen, share, and gather others in community to have conversations around what we're talking about or similar conversations about what you're grappling with.

Andrew: Absolutely. And you can support this work by going to our Patreon, patreon.com/integratedschools. Throw us a few bucks every month to help keep making this podcast. We'd be very grateful for that support. Val, this was a great conversation. You know only dope people. Thank you for bringing Toutoule into the conversation, and it is a pleasure as always to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.