S9E10 – Between The Lines: An EPIC Comeback

S9E10 - EPIC Between The Lines

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Between The Lines: An Epic Comeback.

Dr. Val: Oh my God, that title’s so good!

[Val and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: Epic is back. Epic Theater, if for anyone who is unfamiliar, is a theater company based in New York City. They do all student-based theater work. We had them on before to talk about Nothing About Us, which is a show that they did.

We shared some clips of it, and they're back with a new show, it's called Between the Lines, and I'm very excited to share it.

Dr. Val: Oh, I am thrilled! Um, you know, we're, we're trying to get into theater, here in my house. I have someone who's interested in theater and we try to catch a few shows. So, to actually have students and educators here talking about the work that they're doing is really exciting.

Andrew: Yeah, it's great. So, Epic, they get commissioned by some organization to write a 30 minute piece about a topic. This one is called Between The Lines, it's about the links between housing and school segregation. The students get together for a couple of weeks over the summer, and they have a, you know, sprint to write a show.

And, what I think is particularly interesting about some of the work that they're doing at Epic is it starts out with interviews.

Dr. Val: Yeah!

Andrew: So the, the students take a topic and they've, they dig in and, and one of the ways they dig in is by interviewing people, either experts or just parents or caregivers. I've actually been fortunate enough to be interviewed for two of their shows now, which has been just like an incredible experience because the students bring such a unique perspective to some of the questions they ask. And then they transcribe all those conversations, and then they end up repeating the words that they heard in these interviews as part of the actual show.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I think it is powerful to have young people engaging in these interviews, right? So I can say that I didn't actively talk about segregation, (especially with an audience of adults or cross-racial lines) until I was an adult.

And so, as a student, engaging in interviews with people who have had these experiences, seems transformational at a very young age.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: So who do we have joining us today?

Andrew: Jim Wallert is one of the co-founders and a co-artistic director of Epic Theater Ensemble and he was with us last time. And then also Dilisima Vickers, who is one of the students. She's been working with Epic for a couple years now, and she was part of the writing team and then has performed with the show. And we'll get to hear her both talk about the experience, but also hear her actually performing, cause we're gonna get to play some clips of the show.

Dr. Val: So dope! Our young people really dug into the interviews and in the show, they provide us stories that explore redlining, racial steering, bank loans. How sketchy that can be for people of color.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: They do not hold back. So we should probably press play and hear from our guests themselves.

Andrew: Yes. Alright. Let's take a listen.

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Dilisima Vickers: I'm Dilisima. I work with Epic. I've been working with them since the summer of 2021 and I'm a junior at the Bronx High School for Writing and Communication Arts in the Bronx. Obviously.

[Andrew chuckles]

Andrew: Yeah. And Jim.

Jim Wallert: Yeah. I'm Jim Wallert. I'm one of the co-founders and the co-artistic director of Epic Theater Ensemble. We're an arts organization that's dedicated to making work with and for diverse communities to inspire civic dialogue and social change.

Andrew: That's awesome. And we've had you on once before to talk about a different show: “Nothing About Us.” But today we're gonna talk about “Between the Lines,” which came out of the Epic Next program, right? Tell us a bit about, about Epic Next and what it is and how it works.

Jim Wallert: Yeah. Epic Next, it's a youth arts leadership program. It's high school students that self-select to be a part of our ensemble. They work with us over the summer in a six week summer intensive where they are learning artistic skills, but also kind of using those artistic skills to apply them towards their academic pursuits, their pursuits as, as activists.

The other part of their work of the summer is that they get commissioned by partner organizations to create 30 minute touring plays about different aspects of education, policy and pedagogy. And so, the students are given a topic and then they work with the commissioning partners to identify an essential question. And then they do research where they will interview between 30 and 45 education stakeholders, parents, students, educators, uh, lawmakers, policy folks.

Those interviews are audio recorded and transcribed, and then those excerpts are woven together with original student writing. And the pieces, yeah, they, they end up being about 25 to 30 minutes long and we tour them all over the United States and sometimes internationally. And the student artists facilitate a post show conversation with the audience immediately following the show.

Andrew: Dilisima, you've done Epic Next a couple of times now, right? What drew you to it and, and what's it, what's the experience been like?

Dilisima Vickers: Um, so I joined it, it was the end of my freshman year. I had worked with Epic, like, at that point twice during the school year. So I was familiar with them, but then I got an email that was inviting me to Epic Next and I didn't really have any plans for the summer. They got me when they were like, “Oh yeah, you, you get to write.” And I was like, you know what? Sounds great.

So, I joined in, over the summer, and at first I was a little iffy because, like, it was something new. I had never like theater or anything like that before theater or drama. And I'm just, like, wasn't very good with putting myself out there. But you know, in the end I was able to, like, learn how to put myself out there more and learn to get in front of audiences and speak and not be, like, as afraid to, like, voice my opinions and share.

So that's how I began working with them and that's why I continued to work with them.

Dr. Val: Dilisima and Jim, I'm just curious what are the connections between art and activism for you?

Dilisima Vickers: So art always has been, like, a medium, like, in getting a message across and activism is, like, one of the messages you could get across.

You know, acting when people, like, make art pieces about specific things, there's a connection because, like, they're using these forms of art because not everybody's just gonna sit down and read an essay about something. And it's not going to click with everybody if, like, you just, like, put information in front of them.

So if you give it in, like, different mediums where people are able to, like, digest it differently, and interpret it differently. So, like, if you give somebody an art piece, maybe it'll resonate more with them. Giving it to them in, like, a different form can encourage them to think more about it and be more of a way to connect with different people through art.

Jim Wallert: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I think that art allows people to, to make connections between history and their lives in a really potent way. I studied World War I in history class in high school, but it actually, I didn't sort of feel like I had a, a deep connection to that experience until I read All Quiet on the Western Front. It took that, an artist's lens, an artist kind of using their sense of empathy to, to bring me closer to the, the individuals at the center of that particular historical event and that historical moment.

And I think theater in particular, you know, theater makers, I think are, are really in the empathy business. Particularly theater makers, I think that do the kind of verbatim work that, that we do at Epic where you're interviewing someone, you are capturing that text and that, that person's point of view, and then the actor is interpreting that point of view. It's, in a lot of ways, the, the ultimate act of empathy. And I think that kind of empathy is really important when you're talking about, you know, social justice work. When you're talking about different, kind of, sociopolitical work or policy work.

I think that art is (and theater, in particular) is, is really uniquely capable of addressing some of those issues.

Dr. Val: I'm super fascinated about the decision to engage the audience in conversation at the end of your performances. Can you talk a little bit about what you've learned from that? I'm so curious.

Jim Wallert: You know, civic dialogue is at the core of our mission, and so the play is really the jumping off point for the conversation. You know, we never present a work of art at our company without having that public dialogue, without having, you know, the artists in the room, in conversation with the audience.

Our conversations are really about the questions and the themes in the play and how, how do they connect to you? How do they connect to your life? How do they connect to your community and your world?

The plays are not designed to provide a lot of answers. They're really to, to ask a lot of questions and provoke some interesting dialogue.

Dr. Val: And I think this is important cuz we're trying to encourage people to have these conversations right now. Right? That's part of what the goal is of the podcast, as a place to model the type of dialogue we wanna have.

And so I'm really curious about the young person who's out there doing this all the time. What can you teach us about how to do this better?

Dilisima Vickers: Like Jim said, we're kind of in the business of empathy. So we make these plays for the people who are in these cases, like, kind of on the front lines.

So, like, being able to talk to people and perform for people who, like, have had experiences with the things that we're talking about in our play, it's important. Cuz, like, you know, we're trying to help represent these experiences to people who may not have had them, but also being able to acknowledge and, like, connect with people who have been through these types of things.To know, like, that we're getting their stories across, like, accurately. And you know that, that there are people out. who feel touched about, like, what we're doing, it's very powerful. And, like, I feel like a very big part of what these plays are for, to help people's voices be heard and to be able to connect with the people.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: That's awesome. So you interview 30, 40, 45 people, of all different races, genders, identities, ages. Can you talk a little bit about, like, the act of embodying all these different people?

Dilisima Vickers: So, in a way it's kind of like pressure cuz, like, this isn't something we made up. Like, we interviewed people and they’re trusting us with their stories and their experiences to share with other people. You agreed to, like, be interviewed, you agreed to, like, share your story and kind of put yourself in sometimes, like, a vulnerable situation.Like, oh yeah, you're sharing this story about how, like, you face racism or how you saw this happen or how this happened to you. And then you're giving it to people to share with hundreds and thousands of other people.

So we're able to give a voice to people. So if you don't want to, you don't necessarily have to put your voice out there, but your experience is still being shared. So it's pressure, but it's also something that feels very powerful that we're able to, like, share the voices and opinions and stories of so many people, so that they don't have to do it themselves.

Andrew: Mmm! Jim, can you talk a little bit about what you notice in audience response to that, kind of, phenomenon? I think back to the last show that we had you on with “Nothing About Us” where you guys had taken public comment from school board meetings from White parents that was some really problematic language in some ways. And, and the power of hearing that come out of the voice of a student of color.

Can you speak a little bit about what the audience response to that is?

Jim Wallert: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I, I think when you, when you watch these young people who are taking these different words, and these different perspectives, and these different voices, and embodying them with such care, and a spirit of generosity, a spirit of empathy, a spirit of love. A spirit of, you know, we, we want to amplify all of these different points of view in this forum together so that we can talk about these things respectfully. You know, civil, civic discourse. I think it's really potent for audience members.

A lot of times we are invited into forums following some, like, really unpleasant conversations that adults have had around topics, like integration policy or school districts that have undergone a rezoning process. In schools where there have been conversations about parents being uncomfortable about what's being taught in their child's classroom and we're brought in into these environments and sometimes we get more of, like, “Oh, the last meeting there was a lot of, there was sort of shouting match that was, that was happening here. People were really getting kind of ugly with one another.”

And I think the adults hearing young people present these points of view in that way. It's clear that they've done their research. It's clear that they understand these issues really, really well. That they have an appreciation for all of these different points of view, and that they show it through their artistry. What we've found in, in the post show conversations is the adults in the room are like, “Oh, we have to step up our game here. We can't, we can't just be screaming at each other. We have to elevate our dialogue to match the performers in the room.”

And we've been in spaces like that where those fights have happened, but those fights don't happen in front of, or or with the youth performers of Epic.

Dr. Val: It's fascinating because that, that's telling me adults know how to act! Right?

[Laughter]

Jim Wallert: Yeah.

Dr. Val: They don't wanna act up in front of the young people. And so now I'm trying to figure out how do I get young people in every single room so that the adults…behave?

Andrew: Behave! The kids are watching. We need–

Dr. Val: The kids are watching!

Andrew: –to be our best behavior.

Dr. Val: But we know this already! You know? And the idea that children are now mirroring the behavior and the words that they just heard from the, from the adults just gives me goosebumps to think about how powerful that is. So thank you for that.

Jim Wallert: They, you know, the, the last show that, that we shared on the podcast, Nothing About Us, you know, that came from the, the civil rights rallying cry. “Nothing about us, without us, is for us.” And that's really become a mantra for the students of Epic as they build these pieces. These students are saying, “We have expertise in the education system. We're going through it, we're living it right now, and we should be in those rooms where decisions are being made.” So that phrase was provided the title for one of our shows, but it's really provided the, the mindset for all of the work that, that we're doing.

Andrew: That's awesome. The piece we're gonna share today is a piece called Between The Lines. Can you tell us a little bit, Jim, about how this came to be and who commissioned it and what the task was when you set out to do it?

Jim Wallert: Yeah, this was a commission from the Poverty and Race Research Action Council in Washington, D.C.. And they wanted the ensemble to explore the relationship between educational segregation and the United States' historical housing policies. First of all, sort of look into and research what those policies have been over the last 120 years, and what the enduring legacy of those policies are, and how they're impacting students and families' experience of education.

And I think that this was a lot of new information for the students in, in our ensemble. Is that right, Dilisima? That was sort of your experience with it?

Dilisima Vickers: Well, I'm not gonna speak for everybody, but I'll speak for myself. Like, I had no clue. Like, when they introduced the topic to us, it was just kind of like, “Oh, okay. Like, I don't really know what, like, you're talking about, but, so I'm just gonna go with it.”

But that first, kind of, piece, they showed us the Segregated By Design, like, website and video.

Andrew: That's, like, the Richard, Richard Rothstein, the video they made out of Color of Law? Yeah.

Dilisima Vickers: It was, like, kind of like a slap to the face. We were hearing about all these, like, different policies, hearing, like, about, like, the Home Owners Loan Corporation, which, like, I didn't really know what that existed. And redlining. It was all just so crazy to imagine, like, that this happened and then to have an explanation for, like, why things are the way that they are today.

Like, we live in New York City. We live in the Bronx. We live in, like, Flatbush. We live in Harlem. And, like, our neighborhoods, like, they're not very clean. A lot of schools, they don't have that much funding. We don't get nearly as many resources as many other schools. But we just, kind of like, you know, kind of like chalk it up to like, “Oh yeah, we're in like a more populated area. We're in a poor area.” So we're clearly not gonna get as much as, you know, these other schools in, like, the suburbs where they have one big nice high school that has, like, everything in it. That has, like, different, like, amenities. It has, like, a football field that's, like, gigantic.

But then to find out what happened historically to lead us up to this point. It was just also kind of like a slap in her face cuz it was like, we didn't really think it was that deep, but it really was that deep.

And then the whole “good schools” and “bad schools” and that was really like the next slap to the face. Cuz it was like, Oh wow. Like, I've just been, like, unintentionally racist towards, like, my own community by saying things like, “Oh yeah, this school is bad. I don't want to go here.” Because if we're, we're in the Bronx, if we're being realistic, if you go on GreatSchools right now and look at most high school campuses in the Bronx, none of them are gonna be a “good school.” At least by, like, the standards of websites.

So then, to really, like, realize my school isn't actually necessarily a bad school, but to GreatSchools and to, like, Google reviews, this is a “bad school.” And then we find out what, like, they really mean, like, what does it mean when we say “bad school?” We really just mean that it's in a low income area and that the student population is mainly students of color.

We just found out, like, a lot of what people say versus what they really mean. So you see people talking about, like, “Oh, there's gang activity in these schools.”

Cuz they see, like, a group of kids standing outside the front of the school. But you know if that were a school in the White area and there were just a kid standing in front of the school, be like, they'd be like, “Oh yeah, that's nice. The kids are congregating and talking after school.” But here, “That's gang activity. Like, that's like, that's suspicious!”

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dilisima Vickers: So to really be able to understand, like, the implications of what we say, it really, I feel like it has changed me. Like, I don't go around saying, “Oh, I go to a bad school” anymore. My school isn't bad, it's just… racism! Like, systemic racism.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. I appreciate that because I went to high schools like the ones that would be described as “bad,” but I didn't read The Color of Law until an adult. And so I didn't have this perspective as a young person that you have now.

You kind of touched on it, but how has it made you feel, learning this about your country, your neighborhood, people that, you know, you probably didn't think a whole lot about, thinking about your school?

Dilisima Vickers: I really did find it shocking. So, like, systemic racism. We see it said a lot online, and we're like, “Oh yeah, this country was built on racism. This country was built on White supremacy.”

And it's like, yeah, it was. Like, we have that down. But a lot of people don't know, like, what was specifically done. So, like–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dilisima Vickers: –at school, we talk about, like, this country was built for White people and it was put on the backs of, like, Black people and Indigenous people and people of color.The system was made for White people. But then to learn specifically what was done, like, in a way seems so ridiculous that, like, it shouldn't be true. But it is.

It really did change my perspective. It made me think about, like, what good and bad it really means. Cuz, like, I, my school, it just had a rating of “2” on Great Schools. But I go to this school. I like it there, like, you know? We don't have, like, the most funding, so it's not like we have, like, everything, but we have good teachers. The curriculum is good. They teach us about our history. They teach us about, like Black people in history, they make sure that it teaches a curriculum that's, like, about us. But it's a “bad school,” even though, like, I'm able to go to school and feel included and feel comfortable with my teachers.

So the fact that people are able to go online and they're able to, like, make a judgment so quick, like, “Oh yeah, this school has a rating of ‘2,’ it's a bad school. I'm not sending my kid there.” But then, they don't go. They just trust these ratings based off of, like, standardized tests, which like, you know, are also, like, rooted in racism. But they don't, like, really listen to the school community. They don't listen to the people who go to the school. They're always so quick to blame the school and not blame, like, the DOE or blame, like, just the country for funding the schools, like, through property taxes the way that they do.

So like, being able to finally understand why things are really the way they are.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I, this is, this feels tough to listen to cuz it's my story 30 years later. And it, it should be different, you know? And so, thank you for just even what you did right there. You didn't even know you were telling my story, but you were telling my story. So, thank you, Dilisima.

Andrew: Yeah. Let's take a listen to some of the show, shall we? It’s incredibly powerful. The show opens with a song. Dilisima, can you tell us how this song came to be and who's singing it and what the story is behind it?

Dilisima Vickers: So, the song is inspired by our initial research from Segregated By Design. So that's how we kind of got the refrain. The song was written by a few members of our ensemble at the time. One of them is the one who's in the video singing, Asari. And, they did a lot of extra research, to throw things in. There's, like, even though it is, like, a beautiful song they made sure to also make it very informative so you know, like, how we were talking about art earlier, it's like a, a way to, like, kind of digest. Like, oh, you have, like, this beautiful song being sang to you, but like, in the song, it's like, there, there's, like, a lot of information.

Andrew: All right, let's take a listen.

Between The Lines: [ACTOR 3 - singing]

Learning our forgotten history

So sublime

What they did to those before me

Can’t change with time

They pushed us out of their neighborhood

Without a thought in mind

Moved us to the ghetto

Poor and Ostracized

[ALL]

Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? We’re segregated by design

Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? We’re standing on the battle line

[ACTOR 3]

They challenged our education

Our people didn’t have a choice

Closed all our libraries

There was nun good for us

We fought so hard for our freedom

Just to regress

While the Whites in Levittown

Living their lives at best

[ALL]

Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? We’re segregated by design

Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? We’re standing on the battle line

[ACTOR 3]

The government’s

Like a secret society

Setting all these bills in line

Those in authority

Ensuring our demise

They used us to make money

Even way back in time

And even now that we live in land of the free

They haven’t paid us back a dime

[ALL]

Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? We’re segregated by design

Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? Did ya know? The sad history of mine

[ACTOR 1 - speaking]

There's research that shows that the schools actually drive residential segregation.

Andrew: That is a beautiful song. I'm now, like, definitely in, in the art for sure.

And then the next section of the show is a, a little piece called The Color Code. What can you tell us about The Color Code? You're the host of The Color Code, right, Dilisima?

Dilisima Vickers: So, something that we learned at Epic when writing plays is that there's, like, different elements to the plays. So there's the real, there's the absurd, and there's the poetic. So the song was, like, kind of, like, poetic. And then we have the absurd here. which is like, oh, a game show of, like, racism and historical housing policies.

So, like, our first contestant is the federal government. Then the next contestant is redlining. Then you see the, the last contestant is the Home Owners Loan Corporation. So they're being very silly. Like, it's funny, but it's not, cuz, like, you, like, you see the way they’re acting, is very silly. But then, like, what they're saying is really messed up.

It's kind of like a silly way to express, like, how the government, how the Home Owners Loan Corporation have, you know, set this country back in, like, many different ways. And how, like, they have, sabotaged people of color in America.

Dr. Val: For sure.

Andrew: Yeah. Alright, let's take a listen to The Color Code.

Between The Lines: [Color Code Game Show]

[Audio track of music and audience cheers]

[ANNOUNCER]

It’s time for another episode of The Color Code! Sponsored by Zillow. And here’s your host, Martha Washington!

[MODERATOR]

Hello everyone! Ladies, Gents, Non binary folks. Welcome to THE COLOR CODE

[Audio track of cheers]

Where we rate America’s historical housing policies from WORST to EVEN WORSER!

[Audio track of cheers]

Our first contestant may be young, but oh have they made a huge impact. We all know them, and we all hate them.

[Audio track of laugher]

Give a round of applause for the Federal Government!!!

[Audio track of applause and cheers]

So, tell us, what have you done to make America less Black people friendly?

[GOVERNMENT]

You mean, aside from slavery?

[Audio track of laughter]

Well, I don’t mean to brag, but uh, I single-handedly turbo charged segregation by making laws that prohibited the “Blacks” from buying homes meant for White people.

[Audio track of applause and cheers}

[MODERATOR] That’s awful.

Well, that brings us to our next contestant, Redlining!!

[Audio track of applause and cheers]

[GOVERNMENT] How’s it going buddy?

[REDLINING] You’re the man, dude!

[Audio track of laughter]

[MODERATOR]

So, Redlining, what have you done to make America less Black people friendly?

[REDLINING]

My red lines around Black and Brown neighborhoods on the maps meant the denial of banking, insurance, healthcare. Heck, even supermarkets from people of color, because they were… people of color!

[Audio track of laughter]

[GOVERNMENT]

Man, I miss the ‘60s! If only you were still around. The world would be such a Whiter place.

[Audio track of laughter]

[MODERATOR]

Unbelievable. Well, that brings us to our last contestant: the one, and the only Home Owners Loan Corporation!!

[Audio track of applause and cheers]

[GOVERNMENT]

That's the Home Owners Loan Corporation. Better known by his stage name: The HOLC.

[MODERATOR]

Okay. Uh, Mr. HOLC, please stop flexing. So, what have you done to make America less Black people friendly?

[HOLC]

I was sponsored by the Federal Government.

Under President Roosevelt himself, I created maps and neighborhood ratings that set the rules for decades of discriminatory real estate practices.

[Audio track of applause]

[GOVERNMENT]

Through you two, I was able to selectively raise prices and deny loan applications from Black people simply because they lived in neighborhoods deemed "unfit." I’m so glad I invented you!

[REDLINING] We love you poppa.

[Audio track of “Aww!”]

[MODERATOR]

Oh, Lord. OK, let's begin our game! So, the rules are pretty simple. We’re going to ask our contestants questions about different topics in history. If the answer is correct, the bell will go [bing sound]. If the answer is wrong then the buzzer goes [buzzer sound]. Got it?

[HOLC] Approved.

[REDLINING] Totally!

[GOVERNMENT] Affirmative.

[MODERATOR] Okay, great! First topic - Reparations!

[HOLC] Whoa!

[Audio track of repeating hazard alarm]

[GOVERNMENT] Shut it down.

[REDLINING] Game over.

[ACTOR 2]

[Audio track of jazz music in the background]

Redlining was sort of the backup policy to overt “separate and unequal.” The vision of these folks was really quite remarkable. It's almost like they knew when separate and unequal fell, redlining was a backup to ensure that the separation was perpetuated through our housing policies. We don't have schools now that are officially Black schools and White schools, but we do have communities that reflect the redlining of resources. It's been longer lasting and harder to outlaw than the original official segregation.

[ACTOR 1]

I take the old redlining maps and line them up with current school locations. I've found that schools located in formerly red areas, tend to have worse reputations than schools that are located in formerly green areas. They also tend to have lower per-pupil funding and lower property tax contribution.

[Background music gets louder]

[ACTOR 3]

Human capital is not allocated along zip code. Brilliance is not allocated along zip code. Your capacity is not allocated along zip code. But often your race is. Often your socio-econmic status is. And that is something that we have to change and if we don't change that, we're going to have more and more pressure on democracy.

Andrew: Hmm, it's great. The absurdity of the game show and you're, like, chuckling and then grappling with really how serious the topic actually is. And then followed up by some of this, uh, you know, verbatim texts that came from some of your interviews. It's really powerful. And, uh, you sort of used a similar technique for the next section of the show. Jane Crow Real Estate.

Jim, can you set us up with Jane Crow Real Estate?

Jim Wallert: Yeah, Jane Crow Real Estate really is an invention entirely born out of the brain of Dilisima.

[Laughter]

Uh, this, Dilisima sort of came in and was like, “I got it. I, I know how we could talk about racial steering and we're gonna have this character come in, this realtor. And she's, she's gonna be saying all the right things and then we're going to hear her inner thoughts, the despicable, awful, absurd, terrible inner thoughts of this realtor.”

And so, this conceit that Dilisima came up with is, um, I, I think a really elegant and, and hilarious way to put the coded language out there and then put the subtext right next to it.

Andrew: Anything you wanna add about that Dilisima?

Dilisima Vickers: Yeah. So Jane Crow, even though in real life I would hate a woman like Jane Crow, Jane Crow, but like, Jane Crow's, like, my baby! Like, it was horrible, but it was also like a very funny experience because it's like, you know, the things that Jane Crow says and the same things that we hear every, every day.

Like, she uses language that's used all the time, but felt like it'll kind of be like, uh, jarring to have like the, like what Jim said, like, the subtext, like, right next to the coded language.

So it's like, oh, she's saying this and it's coming out this way, but then like immediately, like, have her inner voice, like, blurting out, like, exactly what she wants to say.

Andrew: Mm-hmm. Alright, let's take a listen to Jane Crow Real Estate.

Between The Lines: [Jane Crow Real Estate]

[JANE] So, how’s the house looking?

[MAYA]

Like a dream, I love it so much! Can I hear more about the area? I have two daughters in middle school and I want to make sure that this place is good for them.

[JANE]

Of course, there’s plenty of parks and other safe places for kids to hang out. Along with schools within walking distance from here. I’m sure your daughters will love it!

[MAYA]

One more question: have you heard about the town right over from here, Greenville?

[JANE]

[Her smile drops for a quick second] Yes, I’ve heard of it.

[MAYA]

I was also considering moving there because of some relatives, but I want an unbiased opinion. Which do you think is a better fit?

[Jane’s inner voice enters]

[JANE]

Well Greenville is an... urban area. Definitely diverse.

[INNER JANE]

BLACK! GREENVILLE IS BLACK!

[JANE]

But I think this neighborhood is a better fit for your family.

[MAYA]

Interesting, why do you say that?

[JANE]

Well, here we have one of the highest rated middle and high schools in the country.

[INNER JANE]

You can’t have your White kids going to one of those poorly funded Black schools with the low ratings. Diversity does not make up for test scores.

[Maya nods]

[JANE]

This town is also known for being incredibly safe and family friendly. It’s also known for its wonderful sense of community.

[INNER JANE]

“Those people” are over in Greenville, so how safe can it really be?

[MAYA]

That sounds like an environment I’d want for my daughters.

[JANE]

Plus, the house values tend to appreciate more than they do in Greenville.

[INNER JANE]

Once “their” kind starts moving in the neighborhood, the property values go bloop!

[Does dropping gesture with hand]

[JANE]

So this house will be worth way more if your family decides to sell in the future. You know, once your kids go off to Harvard!

[MAYA]

Thank you for all your help today! My family will definitely be moving here!

[JANE]

Great! I’ll have the paperwork ready by tonight!

[Maya waves as she exits]

[JANE]

Thank god I didn’t say everything I was thinking. If that lady would had heard, I could’ve lost my job.

[INNER JANE] Even though I was right.

[JANE]

Another satisfied customer at Jane Crow Real Estate.

[Jane Crow Real Estate jingle plays]

[ACTOR 4]

We've kind of divorced the racist language from it, but the outcome is the same. So you don't have to say, "I want to go to a White school or live in a White neighborhood"; you can talk about "Oh I'm just concerned about my property values going up or down" and what you're really talking about is race but you don't have to talk about it out loud.

[ACTOR 2]

All these people have very strong progressive identities, like if you were to meet them, they'd be like, "Yes, I'm a radical anti-racist!” But the moment comes when it's like, “Can you go to school with these other kids in your neighborhood school?”

[ALL]

They pushed back.

[ACTOR 2]

Like, it is bananas that you would ever have parents sitting at a kitchen table going, "I don't know if we can afford to move to a place with good schools for our kid. Like, I don't know if we can afford good public schools. Like, I don't know if we can afford something that's free.” That is a wild conversation, right? That makes no sense at all. We've found a way to parcel out the privilege in a system that is supposed to be free and open to everybody.

[ACTOR 1]

The stark reality is that schools are segregated because White parents want them to be.

[Jane Crow Real Estate Pt.]

[Audio track of doorbell]

[JANE]

That must be the client!

[Jane opens the door sees Carmen and screams]

[JANE]

Excuse me ma’am, are you lost?

[CARMEN]

No, at least I don’t think so. This is 1125 Woodcreek Road, correct?

[INNER JANE] Call the Police.

[JANE] Who are you?

[CARMEN]

Carmen Blackwood, I’m here to look at this house...

[INNER JANE] This is a home invasion!

[JANE]

Oh yes of course! You just look a little bit…different than I’d expected you to. So where are you from?

[CARMEN] New Jersey.

[JANE]

No sweetheart, where are you really from?

[CARMEN]

What does that have to do with the house?

[JANE]

I was just wondering, but….Yes, you’re right. Business talk now.

[Moment of silence]

[CARMEN]

So, Can you tell me about the house?

[INNER JANE]

[mockingly] So can you tell me about the house?!

[JANE]

Ah, yes. It’s a lovely house. Recently had renovations, so it is a bit pricey.

[CARMEN]

I saw the price of the house on the website, it is very much in budget.

[JANE] Oh, okay.

[INNER JANE] No need to get aggressive.

[CARMEN] Well, what about the area?

[JANE]

Lovely area, nice people.

[CARMEN] That sounds great also–

[JANE]

Have you considered a house over in Greenville?

[INNER JANE]

A lot of colored folk in Greenville. You’d fit right in!

[CARMEN]

No, I actually haven’t heard much about that area.

[JANE] Well, it’s very diverse.

[INNER JANE]

Take down the property values somewhere else!

[CARMEN]

My heart is set on Woodcreek.

[INNER JANE]

Come on Jane Crow! You haven’t been doing this for the past forty years just to choke up when it’s time to tell a colored person to stay in their place!

[JANE]

The schools there also have a more culturally accepting curriculum.

[INNER JANE]

With less resources, of course.

[CARMEN]

Ma’am, I was really hoping to hear more about Woodcreek, but you’re trying to steer me over to Greensville and it’s starting to seem very racially charged.

[INNER JANE] Oh crap.

[JANE]

No honey, it’s not like that at all. I just try to take a personal approach to all my clients. That’s all! Nothing to do with race.

[INNER JANE] Nice save.

[JANE]

[Audio track of doorbell]

But, I’ve got another client coming right now, so we can continue our conversation tomorrow.

[JANE] Who are you?

[FLOR]

Hola soy Flor, estoy buscando una casa aquí en Woodcreek.

[JANE] What?

[FLOR]

Estoy aquí en busca de una casa.

[JANE]

Listen lady, I’m not sure what language you’re speaking but we’re in America so you need to speak English!

[INNER JANE]

An immigrant? Trying to buy a house in Woodcreek on my watch? No way, Jose!

[FLOR]

El empleado dijo que mi guía hablaría español.

[JANE]

I still don’t know what you’re saying! What language are you speaking?

[FLOR] Spanish.

[JANE]

Oh! Well why didn’t you just say so? I know a little Spanish myself. Hola, soy yo Jane. Learned that one from watching Dora with my daughter!

[FLOR]

Esta vieja ya me tiene hasta el tope.

[JANE]

No house tour today! Please leave!

[FLOR]

¿Que? Pero ustedes me dijeron que me darían un tour hoy.

[JANE]

I still don’t know what you’re saying! Now please leave!

[JANE pushes FLOR out]

[JANE]

I guess that worked. Today was a bit rocky, but that’s just all in a day's work at Jane Crow Real Estate!

[Jane Crow Real Estate jingle]

[ACTOR 1]

It's so tough because, yo, like there is usually like a racist undertone to those sorts of labels, right? My brain knows that. But then I also know that yo, sometimes it gets wild in certain schools in certain neighborhoods. I'm struggling with this, and probably more so because I had to pick a high school for the twins last year. I don't know if you all are familiar with the philosopher Aubrey Graham, but he said, "You know it's real when you are who you think you are." And I was like, “I don't think I'm who I think I am!” Because it's one thing to say that you have these ideals, but when you have to actually apply them to your own life and I'm on the Board of Ed thinking like, "I can't send my kids there- that's a bad school!"

[ACTOR 2]

To me a good school is really about the cohesiveness of the community. Do the kids feel like they belong? Do the kids feel curious? Are they excited to learn? Do they feel loved by the adults in the community? And, like, how do we think about it in a collective way? All of the city's kids are our kids. And we have a responsibility as parents, to our own kids sure, but really to all kids.

Andrew: Yes, the, the subtext and the actual text, all right in front of us. It feels, again, somewhat funny and pretty devastating to hear it kind of presented that way. It must get quite a response, in front of audiences, I'm sure.

The next section of the show is called Sites of Judgment. What can you tell us about this?

Jim Wallert: Yeah, this was again, kind of in the realm of the absurd, you know? Like, looking at, these neighborhood and school rating sites like Zillow and GreatSchools dot com. And, I think in just a, a sillier moment with the ensemble, again it's intense material. It's heavy.

I think this ensemble, more than anyone I've ever worked with, kind of took on this topic, um, in a, in a real personal way. And so, I think there were moments when we were working on this stuff when students just kind of wanted us an outlet of silliness.

And introducing those rating sites, through like a, a beat poetry? That was sort of, I think, a manifestation of that. We've been talking about some really intense, heavy material here, so let's, let’s. Let's get some silly going.

Andrew: Yeah. Alright, let's take a listen to Sites of Judgment.

Between The Lines: [ZILLOW MUSIC PLAYS]

[Audio track of jazz combo music plays in background]

[ACTOR 3]

Zillow.

[Whisper of “Zillow”]

GreatSchools

[Whisper of “Great Schools”]

The Sites of Judgement

[Whisper of “Judgement”]

Although you provide easy access to information

I still find you imprecise with a hint of discrimination. YOU!

[Audio of percussion intensifies]

[Whisper of “YOU!”]

Prove my theory of exacerbation.

YOU!

[Whisper of “YOU!”]

The one who gives ratings.

YOU!

[Whisper of “YOU!”]

The one who ranks public schools.

Is school ratings the solution?

Why rate schools based on test scores only?

Why be in a state of inaccuracy?

And why please the rich and White only?

Zillow.

[Whisper of “Zillow”]

GreatSchools

[Whisper of “Great Schools”]

[Audio track of background music intensifies]

The Sites of Judgement

[Whisper of “Judgement”]

[Background music ends]

[ACTOR 1]

Zillow and GreatSchools ain't nothin' but a little bit of digital redlining.

[ACTOR 4]

The idea of rating schools is really problematic. To have good schools you have to have bad schools. We don't rate our fire departments. We don't rate our hospitals. Nobody's like, "Ooo, I'm moving there because the ambulance service is really great." There's, like, a threshold. It's a public good. It is a service that's provided to the community. Either it reaches a standard that is acceptable or it doesn't.

[ACTOR 1]

They don't measure what matters to me. They measure on a scale of close proximity to middle-class White culture. What do middle class White people want? Like, we 'bout to give you a gradation on a scale.

[ACTOR 4]

We place a high premium on White-people-comfort in this country.

[ACTOR 1]

I'm just going to speak about me and my people- White parents. We love [and I think you guys all know this about us, I'm gonna guess]- We're not very good about being in community. We don't really listen to people's lived experience and we love data. We just love the metrics stuff. And I think that Zillow and GreatSchools.com just feed right into that.

[ACTOR 4]

Being a parent is terrifying. And so we're hungry for something to say like "Yes! You're doing a good job". And somebody's like, “Here's a website that tells you You're doing a good job by sending your kid to a good school.” It's a huge relief as a parent.

[ACTOR 1]

These websites do more damage to our perception of public schooling in the United States than really anything else out there.

[ACTOR 4]

It leads to creating schools that are a commodity that we can hoard. They're a resource that people can hoard. And if they're a resource that people can hoard, the people who can most influence the system, the people who can most leverage their privilege are the ones who hoard the most of it.

[ACTOR 1]

There are five times as many school districts as there are counties in the U.S.

There are 32 school districts within a five mile radius of Camden, New Jersey. There is absolutely no way you could argue that that's an efficient system, right?

[ACTOR 2]

I'm from New Jersey. Picture a map in your head- how big is New Jersey? Not very. It has 600 school districts. Take a few hops out West: Nevada. How many New Jerseys could fit in Nevada? I don't know, like a lot? Do you know how many school districts there are in Nevada? 17. Maryland has 24. Florida has 60-something.You can draw bigger school districts. It's not magic, right? Like, this is something that people did in a room, in a state legislature and they are redrawing them everyday. These things move around all the time- usually not to the advantage of kids of color. So when you draw that line, you are doing something really powerful, because you are determining what kids will have access to what resources. And if you draw that line around a little redlined town, you are immediately reproducing the injustice of redlining in that school. If you draw a school district border more expansively- if you do it the Nevada way then you are creating a lot more opportunity for fairness. You're not guaranteeing fairness. There are a lot of ways to be unfair. There are a lot of ways to segregate. But if you draw the border small around a redlined town, there's no room to make it better.

Andrew: After this point, the fourth wall comes down a little bit and now the students are really kind of sharing their own perspectives. And before we play that section, I'm just wondering, Dilisima, if you can talk a little bit about like what, what was the most surprising thing in researching the show? I mean, I know you said that like most of this felt brand new, but was there like a moment from the interview process or from the show creation process that kind of sticks out in your mind?

Dilisima Vickers: We did one interview and like, whenever I think about the show, I think about this one interview. The person we were interviewing, she was telling us about, like, a desegregation order that was happening in the seventies. And she was talking about how they were, like, busing kids, all over Las Vegas, in order to, like, integrate the schools.

And she also mentioned a concept of White flight. So she was talking about how a lot of White parents were pulling their kids out of public school and sending them to charter and private schools in order to, like, escape this desegregation order.

And it's, like, that really stuck with me because this show is, like, about what's happened to public schooling because of these historical housing policies. So like, you know how where you live determines where you go to school.

But the fact, like, that these White parents are able to take their kids outta school. They were willing to spend money just so that their kids wouldn't have to go to school with Black kids, like the other children of color in, like, their city. Or, like, pull their kids outta school and put them in a charter school, just so that they, this wouldn't have to happen to the, their kids.

And it was also mentioned, like, in the play, it was like these parents I thought had, like, these progressive anti-racist identities. But when it's time to send your kid to like, to school, like to their neighborhood school with, like, the other children of color, like, you know, they pushed back.

So, it's not kind of all connected, cuz it goes back to the coded language too. When you think about, like, “Oh, I don't want my kid at a ‘bad school,’” like, “This school just doesn't have what I want, what I would want for my kid.”

But what they're really trying to say is like, “I don't want my kid going to school in the Black neighborhood. I don't want,” like, you know, “These kids from the bad part of town and this Black neighborhood coming to my child's school.”

Andrew: What, what has been the response? The show, you sort of originally wrote it as a movie, a film, basically. But now, have been putting it on in front of live audiences? How are people responding to it?

Dilisima Vickers: I could, like, say for sure that the Jane Crow Real Estate has been getting the reactions that we've, like, kind of expected. Cuz, like Jim was saying, like, since we, like, we were very hurt by the topic, we tried to find, like, like silly outlets to let it out.

So there are multiple parts of the play that, that are, like, very absurd. Like, you know, we have the game show, then we have Jane Crow, then we have the poem. And, you know, like, you write stuff cuz you want, like, a reaction to it!

Like James said, like we tried to, like, encourage dialogue. So, like, when you have, like, these really, like, out there jarring, it's to get people talking. And that's been exactly what's happening.

Like, when Jane Crow happens, like when she says one thing and then her inner voice comes outta nowhere yelling about how she doesn't want a Black person in this neighborhood, the audience goes like, “Oh!” Or like when the Zillow poem comes on, like, sometimes people, like, they'll be saying it after, like, we'll finish the performance and they'll be like, [whispers] Zillow, GreatSchools, Sites of Judgement!

[Andrew laughs]

So , because of the medium that we’re getting this out through, we're like, we're going like, we're putting, like, kind of like phrases in their heads, and they're able to remember it.

So we wanted, like, to get people talking, to get people to relate, to get people to, you know, remember.

Andrew: Jim, if listeners want to support your work or they want to see the show, they want to bring you out, they want to incorporate the show into their curriculum. How can they, how can they get in touch?

Jim Wallert: Yeah, they can reach out to us through our website, which is EpicTheaterEnsemble.org. You can see kind of the menu of all of the different touring plays that we have, touring films, and you can reach out to us and, and we can have a conversation about bringing the work into your community.

Um, we also have a book, uh, that's come out in the last year called “Citizen Artists: A Guide to Helping Young People Make Plays that Change the World.” And so that's a text that has, kind of, Epic’s methodology behind building the touring shows. A lot of the curriculum that we use with young artists making works about social justice. And it also (kind of the most exciting thing is), it's got four of the text of the plays, in there as well.

So, it's really exciting for our youth artists to be, become published authors.

Andrew: That's amazing.

We're gonna play the last bit of the show here where, sort of, the, the fourth wall comes down and the students get to share their own personal feelings and reactions to what they learned and what they hope.

Before we jump into that, Dilisima, is there a main message you hope people take away from Between The Lines?

Dilisima Vickers: Um, I'd say to know the history of the country because, you know, people are very quick to judge and, like, how we've been talking about the whole time to know “This is a bad neighborhood, this is a bad school,” but they're not understanding the reasoning behind it.

And then, like, they think that like, “Oh yeah, it's just a fact that this is a bad neighborhood.” But they're not looking, like, what caused it to become bad and what caused, like, this judgment to be passed. And, like, how there's a lot of racial implications, like, playing into, like, their opinions on, like, different neighborhoods.

So, I need people to become more aware and people to, you know, like, educate themselves. And, like, we're, we're helping with that through this play. We're giving a lot of information in a short amount of time, and, you know, make sure that you don't keep this information to yourself.

Make sure to share it. Make sure, like, if you have social media, share. If you have friends or family that you think might be interested, share. If you work in a school, if you work in any community that, like, you think could be benefited by this type of information, then you should share. So pretty much in short make sure to educate yourself and don't be stingy with your knowledge, please.

Andrew: I love that. That's beautiful. Well, thank you both for taking the time, for coming on, for sharing, and, and much more importantly, thank you for all the work. Um, I have yet to be disappointed by anything that's come out of Epic. It always makes me think and, you know, changes the way I see the world and it's so nice to dig into some of these topics that we spend a lot of time thinking about, but through the lens of art.

So I'm really grateful to you both for coming on and, uh, let's hear the end of the show.

Dr. Val: Thank you all!

Between The Lines: [ALL] When I first heard-

[ACTOR 3]

When I first heard about the history of educational segregation and housing, I was mortified and confused.

[ACTOR 1]

So many questions floated in my head. Does this still happen?

[ACTOR 4]

How could we be okay with that?

[ACTOR 3]

Why would our own government go to such great lengths to make sure Black and Brown people didn't succeed in America?

[ACTOR 2]

Why didn’t my teacher make a lesson for us to learn about this?

[ACTOR 4]

I realized how much of my life was depending on where I lived and where I went to school.

[ACTOR 2]

Everything I experienced going to public school is in THIS TOPIC.

[ACTOR 1]

The extremes of how we were pushed out of neighborhoods and prevented from buying homes.

[ACTOR 2]

Policies that were put into place to make it so difficult.

[ACTOR 1]

It really hurt.

[ALL]

What I felt.

[ACTOR 3] Shocked.

[ACTOR 2]

Weird. Like I was going back in time.

[ACTOR 4]

I felt very scared.

[ACTOR 2]

I was honestly upset.

[ACTOR 3]

I honestly wanted to cry. It made me question everything I was taught in school. I felt like a part of me was purposefully left out in order to mold me into society's idea of how a Black girl should be.

[ACTOR 4]

I started to question exactly what they mean when they label places as good and bad.

[ACTOR 2]

With this play at least there’s something we’re doing about it. Spreading awareness.

[ACTOR 1]

Becoming more aware actually helped me a bit.

[ALL]

What I want.

[ACTOR 1]

I want Public Schools to teach the full history of housing discrimination in America.

[ACTOR 2]

I want Public Schools to teach the full history of educational segregation in America.

[ACTOR 3]

I want to stop funding Public Schools through local property taxes.

[ACTOR 4]

I want parents to make choices to end segregation.

[ACTOR 2]

I want an honest attempt for change.

[ACTOR 4]

I want change.

[ALL] Change.

[Audio track of inspirational music]

----------------------------------

Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Dr. Val: I am so inspired! Okay? So, their ending I think is exactly what we would articulate for our world as well. Right? And for them to come to that realization and to write those words based on the interviews they have with folks and to feel, like, a sense of agency around what they want and deserve, I think is really important. Oftentimes I think adults would probably argue that students and young people aren't paying that much attention, or that they don't have an opinion that really matters. Right?

Andrew: They don't know enough. They don't understand enough. They, yeah.

Dr. Val: Right. And here they're clearly telling us they want parents to make choices to end segregation.

That's a big deal! If your kid comes into the room and says, I want you to make choices to end segregation. Like, how do you respond?

Andrew: Hmm. Yeah. Super powerful. You know, Dilisima talked on, about this throughout this, like, the, the power of presenting all this information. You get a lot of history in whatever, 27 minutes or something is how long the show is. You get a lot of history, you get a lot of information.

It's easy to digest. It, like, hits you through your heart because it's presented with some sort of absurdity and some comedy and it's art and it really gets at you. But, but it's clear, right? That these students have, have done their homework. These students have an opinion. They're both understanding the historical context, but then, you know, how does this actually impact their lives today?

What are the ways that this is showing up? How is this helping them understand their own lives better? And just feels, yeah, really powerful.

Dr. Val: Yeah. We talked about how parallel our stories are and you know, me just wanting to apologize that her story is like mine, but 30 years removed. Um, 12 years removed if you look at my skincare, and so….

[Andrew and Val laugh]

Andrew: It was just last year!

Dr. Val: Just last year, if you check out my skincare routine and, uh, the fact that we can use art to engage people in these conversations who might not be willing to engage in these conversations otherwise.

So I think it's very powerful and they mentioned it as a core of their mission to engage in civic dialogue at the conclusion of these sessions. Cuz oftentimes in art and plays, you're kind of left with these feelings and no place or group of people to process. For that to be part of the design and for the young people to do the heavy lifting of preparing us for this conversation and then facilitating the conversation, I am just impressed beyond belief that they are taking that on. Because again, they are trying to convince the adults who have the ability right now to make this change, to actually be inspired to do something.

Andrew: Yeah. The modeling piece, right? Like, they are, they are showing that we can actually engage in civic dialogue. These are hard topics. These are topics that tend to get people worked up. And yet, as Jim mentioned, they go into places where people have been screaming and shouting at each other, and then the students show up. Present this really thoughtful, well-crafted piece of art and then engage in a conversation and, and the adults have to step up their game. The adults have to say, “Ooh, okay, maybe I need to, uh, actually try to engage in this with a little more good faith and a little more heart and empathy and humanity.”

Dr. Val: Yeah, I think it's, it's easy to wanna stay in our head in these conversations, and I think that's something that you and I do well, right? We're not afraid to embrace our feelings in these conversations. And I think in order to solve the problems that they mentioned at the end, that has to be part of it, right?

If you don't feel anything around segregation, you're not gonna be moved to do anything about it, right? We need as many examples of humans bravely stepping into this conversation as we can possibly get. And if that means following the lead of the young people who are doing the heavy lifting to make sure that we're having the conversation, that is what needs to happen. Their work is deeply thoughtful, creative, meaningful, and that type of, that level of conversation is accessible to everyone.

Andrew: Yeah. I loved how they, right, they brought up this, this sort of theme throughout of, like, both, you know, bringing new ideas to people, but then also, like, using the art to have people see their ideas represented, right?

So the people who maybe don't want to be putting themselves out there, don't want to be on stage, you know, reciting a monologue that is their actual life story, there's still, like, this vehicle for their story to get told that, that again, creates more empathy. That brings more ideas to the table. That enriches the conversation.

Dr. Val: Yeah. So you said you've been interviewed by this ensemble before, um, and you've had your words reflected back to you in one of these performances. Like, how did that feel? Did you feel like you were in the Twilight Zone?

Andrew: Yeah! I mean, it's a, a deep honor to have even been asked to participate in these interviews. I've done it twice now, and every time, just been blown away by the quality of questions that they ask and their ability to get quickly to the heart of some really kind of, uh, profound things by asking the right questions and, and then just listening.

And, just from the act of having the conversations, have felt my own perspective shift and, and, and grow and, and then to hear words that I remember saying, come, coming back from the students is, yeah, it does feel a little bit like the Twilight Zone. That there was something in there that resonated enough with them, connected enough with them, that they wanted to then take and make part of the show feels like a, a real honor.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Art is moving. And hopefully it asks you to move as well, you know? That you are, are no longer the same after viewing a piece or experiencing some art, right?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. One of the things I really love about, about Epic's work is that it is very much focused on, you know, creating artistic pieces and very much tied issues that affect us all. And in a, a course of a typical week, like I will think about the sort of school's integration work in a very intellectual way. And then I will want to unplug and turn to art as, like, a, a way to escape.

And, you know, to be forced to kind of pull those things together and, and look at the ways that art is really (in addition to being escapism, in addition to like, kind of, you know, taking us to somewhere new or some other place) to, to make those ties back to the things that, that I care about on a daily basis, also felt really inspiring.

Dr. Val: Yeah, for sure. I think for me it also makes me want to connect with others.

Andrew: I mean that does set us up, Val, nicely for our action steps. End of the episode. What, uh, what action steps are you taking now after this conversation with Jim and Dilisima and hearing Between The Lines?

Dr. Val: Yeah. So for sure I want a privilege art that, that moves me. Whether that's visiting museums, or street exhibits, or young people's performances. Like, how do you find and/or make art that is rooted in this moment? I feel like in my city, I see a lot of that, thankfully. Like, we have a, a city where there's beautiful murals and street art, and spending some time in community with that artwork and those artists seems like a, a really important step. And to use that as a vehicle to invite others into the conversation.

Andrew: Yeah. I echo all that. And I think also, like, looking for the ways that any art that I'm consuming, that I can, I can make ties to things that, that feel important and relevant right now? I think there is, there is a lot of underappreciated current, relevant art. You know, it's the, the life of a current artist is not easy!

So I think finding ways to support that and give my time and energy and resources to people who are doing that work feels really important. But also, in whatever you're watching or listening to or consuming, there are ways to make more explicit ties, I think, to the, the current world that we're living in.

And I think even just kind of taking that mindset into more of the art consumption that I, that I do anyway, feels like a, a good action step as well.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And the other one is really listening to young people. Answering their questions. Talking to them, and listening to how they feel about those honest answers. Like, we shouldn't be hiding these things from young people. Like I said, I didn't, I did not have the conversation that Dilisima was having with people until I was an adult.

And, they deserve that! Cuz this is the world they're inheriting and that they're gonna have to help us change and they should be part of the conversation as early and as often as possible.

Andrew: Absolutely. Well, my other action step is to check out Epic Theater's website. A couple of their shows are available to watch online. Really cool. If you are somewhere where you are in a position to bring them out to, uh, an event you're hosting or able to go see them in New York. Definitely encourage folks to do that. And then buy their book! This new book about youth theater and the power of it, and you can see some of the text from some of the shows that they've done.

Uh, listeners, other action steps you can take, as always, to support this podcast, you can join our patreon patreon.com/integratedschools. Throw us a few bucks every month. Keep this podcast up and running. We would be grateful.

Dr. Val: That's right! And we also want you to listen and share and engage in dialogue, cuz that's also part of our mission. So, listen once, listen twice, share it, talk about it, keep the conversation going.

And the easiest thing you can do is hit follow on your podcast app.

Andrew: Make sure you hear all of our episodes as soon as they come out. We would also be grateful for any ratings or reviews you could share on your favorite podcast app that helps other people find the show.

Dr. Val: Fives. Five. Not “any” ratings.

[Val and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: We'll be grateful for your five star ratings. On, on any app you have.

Dr. Val: And your voice memos, please! Talk to us! The dialogue is important.

Andrew: And your voice memos! Yes. Integratedschools.org. There's a little button on the side that says, leave us a voicemail. You can click there or just shoot us a voice memo: podcast@integratedschools.org. Let us know what's on your mind. What did you think of this show? How are you thinking about art and how it impacts your life day-to-day?

We'd love to hear it. Well, Val, it is, uh, as always a pleasure to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time, friend.