S13E4 – School Closures: Spotlight on Integrated Schools – Portland

S13E4 - School Closures: Spotlight on Integrated Schools - Portland

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina!

Andrew: And this is School Closures: Spotlight on Integrated Schools Portland. Val, we've got a great conversation to share today about our Portland chapter of Integrated Schools and some of their work they're doing. But before we talk about that, we probably have to talk about the election.

Val: That's right. I mean, you saw a little juice in my introduction today.

Andrew: Yeah!

Val: I had a great election day! How about you?

Andrew: It was a very exciting night. Lots of good news all around the country. Good news for democracy, good news for education. We had a couple of bad news outcomes in Colorado around some ballot measures that are pretty devastating to the trans community that certainly took a little bit of the edge off of my ov- otherwise overwhelming joy about the outcomes of the election.

Val: Yeah. I'm sorry to hear that not everything worked, and I do think it's an important conversation for us to continue to have. So listeners, if you know any trans activist folks who wanna come on and talk about the impact that it has on schools and young people, send them our way, 'cause we wanna talk about things that, that matter to you all. And so, one thing that I love about Election Day in general is organizers. And we actually get a chance to talk to an organizer today!

Andrew: Yes. Lots of the outcomes that I certainly feel positive about that happened on Tuesday are the result of hard efforts from people who are out there organizing in small and big ways, and that's something that's happening in Portland right now, through the Integrated Schools Portland chapter. For listeners who don't know, we've got chapters and network contacts all over the country, almost 50 of them now, I think, at this point.

Val: Wow.

Andrew: And, we thought over the course of the season we'd try to drop in on a few of them and hear what's going on. Hear their stories and what's happening in those chapters, 'cause one thing we find is that stories that feel really unique to a specific location, when you actually hear the details of it, you start to see parallels, and–

Val: That's right.

Andrew: – Portland is certainly no exception. They are dealing with school closures.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Declining enrollment. And, the district is trying to figure out what to do about that, which I know is a story in all sorts of cities across the country.

Val: That's right.

Andrew: And so, we thought we'd have Elizabeth, the Portland chapter leader, come on and tell us a little bit about Portland and their chapter and some of the work she's doing, organizing with an organization called Rightsizing the Right Way.

Val: I think one thing that you and I talk about often (and is true for the chapters) is that folks are looking for community. And so, while we talk about organizing and we talk about community on this podcast all the time, we don't want it to feel intimidating. You and I are now a community.

So, where two or more are gathered, that is the beginning of your community!

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And where two or more are working toward an effort together, that is your organizing. So, we want everyone listening to know that, one, you can and should find community around these issues. And two, if there's some action to take, take it! Right?

Every little action counts.

Andrew: Yeah, Elizabeth is a great example of that. She tells us her story of coming to Integrated Schools, and how she found the organization, and how she got connected, and what it's meant to her and her family to find this community and then work to build the community in Portland.

And I think it serves as a, as a great example for listeners out there. If you haven't connected with your local chapter or your local network contact, jump on our website, go to the chapters page, and find somebody near you. And if there isn't somebody near you, you might be that person. You can–

Val: That's right.

Andrew: –shoot us an email, and we can talk to you about how you can become a chapter leader.

Val: That's it. I'm ready to hear from Elizabeth.

Andrew: All right, let's jump in.

[THEME MUSIC]

Elizabeth: Hi, I am Elizabeth Doerr. I am a parent and a writer in Portland, Oregon. And I am also the chapter coordinator for the Portland chapter of Integrated Schools, and have been involved with Integrated Schools for a number of years.

Val: Awesome!

Andrew: Amazing. We are very glad to have you, helping out in Portland with Integrated Schools' work. Tell us a little bit of your, kind of, Integrated Schools journey, your story.

Val: Yeah!

Andrew: How did you find the organization? Why did you start thinking about school integration as something that you cared about?

What choices did you make for your kids?

Elizabeth: Sure. My background and career is in social justice education, and so it's something that I have been thinking about a lot for, kind of, my entire career. And before I lived in Portland, I lived in Baltimore, Maryland. That's where I met my husband, and we did not have a kid there. We had him in Portland, but I remember feeling so weird about a lot of my friends who had kids (or who wanted kids) that had these conversations that they would be like, "Well, when our kids, you know, reach school age, we'll either send them to private or go to the county."

And I- and that always felt so awkward to me, and I was like, I- it really didn't sit well with me. I did community engagement for Johns Hopkins University, the health professional schools, and worked with a lot of the schools that were in the city that were, like, blocks from our East Baltimore campus, and they were awesome!

I had been inside them, you know, a lar- you know, they have a lot of Black kids, because Baltimore is very Black.

Andrew: Because they’re in Baltimore! [Laughter]

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Val: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: I... So I couldn't, like, it just really felt so, uh, racist. I mean, honestly. Like, it felt like, uh, our- people are making these weird decisions based on what they think is an objective discussion on “what are good schools and what are bad schools,” but they're always rooted in race.

And so, so it was already on my radar before I even got pregnant with my son, who's now nine. And so, then we moved to Portland, and I was pregnant during the 2016 election and had my son in early 2017. And it was a conversation that I was having a lot with our friends, my friend group at that time, trying to have, like, navigate social justice conversations, like, what does this look like? And inevitably, schools come up.

My son didn't start “school” school until 2022. He's in fourth grade now. But I follow Courtney Martin on, on all the things, and I think it was a post that she wrote after Courtney Mykytyn had died. So I was really sad to have, you know, come across the organization after that Courtney was, was gone.

And the legacy that she left, though, is really incredible because I was like, "Oh my God, these are my people!” This is exactly what I've been thinking about for years and, and then I found some other families. And again, my son was not even in school yet, and so yet we'd started having these conversations.

And so now my son goes to our neighborhood school, which also happens to be incredibly diverse, which is really which is... People don't believe that exists in Portland, Oregon, which is an incredibly White city, which is true. It is a very White city. But it also is very segregated, like every city in America.

And so, we have this, like, really incredibly vibrant, diverse (um, diverse both economically, racially, ethnically) school, and it's right down the street from my house.

You know, it's kind of, you know, the first step in Integrated Schools is choosing integration, and then the next step is how you show up. And so that has been an incredible but awesome journey.

And I was just talking about how many times it, I've, like, messed up, you know, through this process. But it's been, like, this really beautiful process of learning for me, but also I have the most wonderful friend network. I've made so many friends from parents and people who work in the school from just being a part of that. And then also my son gets to be around kids from different backgrounds, who look dif- look different from him. And he's having a kind of education that I never had growing up in Spokane, Washington, in a pretty White bubble that very, you know, it was in the '90s, so we didn't talk about race. And now I feel like we are in a place where we can do that.

We don't show up in the best way always, but we try to. And we learn, and we, you know, work for repair and all that.

Val: I want to unpack a little bit more about the choosing integration. You found yourself in a, in a diverse, name it, Black city, right? So that was, like, the beginning of it for you. But you still chose integration, 'cause you could have lived in Baltimore and not chosen it, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Val: You, you could have moved to Portland and, and have not chosen it. And so, try to, try to unpack a little bit, maybe the conscious decisions you made? Or maybe the unconscious things that were, like, playing along in the background?

Elizabeth: I think that's such a good question too, because I mean, one of the things that I, I think about, especially like, you know, I'm a White liberal, and so I think a lot of White liberals kind of assume that, like, you, you vote a certain way, you do all these things. You are being a “good White person.” And so, then you're confronted with something like seeing all your White friends choosing schools that are also White, and questioning that. And so, I think a lot of people, that is a sense of, like, dissonance.

When I did social justice education, I wrote a lot about how when you're, specifically with college students, that when you're, we're doing that, you're trying to help them navigate dissonance and, and push through it in a, in a, quote, "comfortable way." Because, which is, you know, an oxymoron 'cause dissonance is uncomfortable because you're being confronted with something that is, like, uncomfortable and you either have to, like, just live with that discomfort, or most people are just gonna, like, turn away from it.

And so, like, I think for me when we got to Portland and I was actually, you know, I had skin in the game with a kid that, a- and was surrounded by other people who had kids themselves, it was like it became less of a…

Andrew: Theoretical conversation.

Elizabeth: A theoretical, yeah.

Val: Mm-hmm,

Elizabeth: It became real and personal.

And, at least in Portland, it was like I, I was already nervous about, like, coming from a city that had a majority Black residents, still very segregated, but also, like, we talked about race all the time.

And then moving to a super White city and feeling like, what does that look like? And it also became very clear to me that it was, like, that the schools are a big part of that. I started to learn more about how segregation was created by uh, schools and schooling and where people choose to send their kids and how the school systems are set up.

I've always been the kind of person that's just like, "Why don't you just go to your neighborhood school?" Like,

Val: Same.

Elizabeth: I don't, like, to me– [Laughter]

Val: Like, what is the problem?

Elizabeth: –I’m like, why are you inconveniencing yourself?

Andrew: Right.

[Val chuckles]

[10.48]

Elizabeth: I mean, there is the challenge, though, that some of the, like, the ch- the neighborhoods that people choose to buy houses in are, are, are already segregated. And I'll, I'll admit, like, our neighborhood is not super diverse. It's actually pretty gentrified. It used to be historically Black and now it's majority White. But because of the catchment area that our school district, or our school has, it just, it has created a very, very diverse school setting. And that was, you know, just happened to be the school my son was assigned to, and we were really lucky in that situation.

I do think, like, the conversations that people have on the playground are a big part of it. And I think that the challenge for a lot of people is that that thought process of school choice is not interrupted enough.

And so, like, I w- [Elizabeth laughs] I think I'd be, I was that interrupter. I'd be like, "Why are you looking ... Like, why do you think you need to do this?"

Val: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: And I think that that's probably part of it, is that it's just, you're kind of going with the tides. I mean, I'm, I am now talking to a lot of families who chose to, like, send their kids to what are “focus option schools,” and then when you talk to them about it and, like, how, kind of, the disparities between the resources that they get and also the, segregation that has happened, they're like, "Oh, I didn't even think about that."

But if somebody had interrupted that thought process early on, then maybe it would be different. People will just go with the tide. The majority of people will.

Andrew: The river is flowing and it's flowing quickly. And to step out….Yeah, something needs to get in the way of that, for sure.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: I mean, the other thing that I’m thinking about is that you had, you had spent time inside of schools that were considered, quote unquote, "bad schools," and seen that, like, the way we talk about schools and what actually happens in the building don't, doesn't always line up in that, in that same way.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: I think that's, like, another big piece that kind of, like, opens your mind.

Val: Yeah.

Elizabeth: Yeah, and the funny part is that I, I don't think I had spent a lot of time in those schools, but enough time, you know? Like, even like three or four different visits that it, it's still then you see like, "Oh, wow, this place is great!" You know? But most people don’t–

Val: Yeah.

Elizabeth: –get that far even just to, to visit one.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I'm thinking about our conversation, about the Nikole Hannah-Jones piece and the wandering around, like, what are you doing this for? When, when parents and caregivers come up on decisions like, "Hey, I'm gonna take my kid out of this school 'cause it's too uncomfortable."

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

Val: Like, trying to go back and like w- why are you actually doing it?

Are you doing this because you are a super nice White liberal and it feels like the right thing to do, right? Or, or is there something more, more to it?

I've only been to Portland once, and one of my colleagues, a, a White person, said there's more Black Lives Matter signs here than Black people. [Everyone chuckles]

Andrew: Wow.

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Val: And, and so I imagine in a city like Portland, right, it, it can be even more difficult to choose it, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah. Because it's like, very typical White liberals who are surrounded by other White liberals who all have Black Lives Matter signs or like, you know, “choose love” or whatever in their yard.

But then the decisions that they make around education and schooling are exceptionally racist. But they don't see it that way because it's not overt.

Val: I, I think the, the big idea is in a city like Portland, it is easy, as Andrew mentioned, to, to follow–

Elizabeth: Hmm.

Val: –the flow of everyone there. And to step out of that is, I think, an act of courage that I don't want our listeners to miss.

Elizabeth: Mm! Yeah.

Val: Because you might think, like, "Oh, I'm just, I'm just doing a regular thing," and you're not! You know?

And even if it, it looks slightly different, right? Even if it's, like, the conversations you're having or what you're reading, maybe you don't have young people. Maybe your young people have already left, and you, and you did make your decisions, and now you're trying to make different ones 'cause you're, you're at a, a place where you, you've learned more.

I think I wanna leave room for all of our listeners who might be kinda grappling with this to know that it's gonna be a hard decision. Like, it's not an easy decision.

Elizabeth: It is. Well, and it’s never hard, it's never easy to have these conversations with other families that are challenging that. You know, we've had families who have left the school over the last few years, and I still struggle sometimes to have conversations with them about it. It also does frustrate me that we're in a system where it is like, if we want, like, a fully funded, fully vibrant public school system, [Elizabeth chuckles] why is there choice in that matter? I don't know.

Val: And I think that's the “a-ha” that I'm, I'm learning. Everybody doesn't want that!

Elizabeth: I know.

Val: That's the part that I have to sit with. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. It sounds like the other piece that was important for you, Elizabeth, was, was finding community and was finding other people to do that with–

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –because we know that can be sort of a, a scary, a scary choice–

Elizabeth: Absolutely.

Andrew: –and kind of a hard thing to do. Can you talk a little bit about kind of the Portland chapter of Integrated Schools and, and your work in gathering other like-minded folks to create that sense of community, to create that sense of belonging, so that people feel like they actually can make a different choice. They can step out, and they won't be all by themselves having stepped out of the river, but that there'll be, you know, somebody there with a towel to, to dry them off! [Elizabeth laughs]

Elizabeth: Yeah! Yeah, absolutely. I mean, community is, is huge. I mean, I think we're human and I think sometimes we need our decisions to be validated. And when everyone around you is not going to validate your dec- decisions, they're going to, uh, question your decisions. To have other people, other partners and accountability partners in this is the best way, is ho- honestly, I feel like the only way to do it. But not to say that if you are the only one, you could also be the one to start creating that community. I think action begets more action, and if you take the step, other people who are already having these questions about it, you can be the resource, uh, for those people too. And–

Andrew: I mean, that, that's the reason there is an Integrated Schools, right? Like, Courtney Mykytyn was–

Elizabeth: Yeah

Andrew: –that person. And she–

Elizabeth: Exactly!

Andrew: –put out into the world that, like, "Here is this thought I'm having," and the other people who are having it. And like you said, Elizabeth, right, people, like, so many people are like, "Ahh! I finally found my people. I knew–

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Andrew: –I felt like I was crazy. I felt like there was no one else around, and then I finally found my people." And yeah, you can be–

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: –that first person to start collecting those other people, for sure.

Elizabeth: Yeah, absolutely. So we meet a couple times a year. I think e- everyone's at a little bit of a different stage, and I think this is something that we're trying to navigate. I've met a couple of folks whose kids are not in school yet, and they are, seeing that the White families in their neighborhood are all, like, looking at going elsewhere for school. And so that is where they can find that connection.

And we have families whose kids are older who are, like, really, who are, are, they're far into the, into the integration process. And I think that's more of, like, discussions about how to navigate it, how to show up.

I think that's the really important thing about Integrated Schools is that we, our presence is not the savior. We are not saviors. Like, we as White people are not, like, granting, you know, making everything better just because we're there. What we need to do is also to show up in a conscious way to understand our privilege. And that takes some navigation, especially for a lot of White people like myself who didn't know how to talk about race. And also who just, you know, it's, it's uncomfortable if you screw up or say something the wrong way, and, like, how do you repair that and, like, having these discussions.

But then also navigating the things with your kids in school. Like, you know, there's segregation that happens just among children that you're also trying to navigate, like, within these schools. Also, like, conversations about race with your kids that come up in class. Kids with different learning differences and behavior challenges in some ways.

My, my kid is, g- he's a little, he's a White boy. And he is academically doing fine. He's gonna be fine wherever he goes. Like, when he gets upset about a kid who was having a hard day that day, and it kind of affected him, you know, it's a great conversation to be like, "Okay, well, let's talk about, you know, what might that kid be experiencing?"

You know, a lot of n- what is neurodivergence and all that kind of stuff. I mean, and that happens in every school, but I don't think that families are as equipped to have these conversations. They make it about the problem on the other kid, whereas that's our responsibility as parents to have these conversations with our kids about it so that they can navigate these experiences and also learn about what it's like to be in the real world. So, those are the kinda conversations that we're having in our chapter meetings.

I am trying to also figure out a way to, to structure it so people are getting what they need from it, too, because, like, people who are just trying to make a decision, they're at a different place than those who, you know, whose kids are almost in middle school. So,

Andrew: Right.

Elizabeth: It's, it's, it's different. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, it's certainly one of the challenges we see with, with chapters all over the country is it's a lot of different spaces to try to hold in one organization. In one chapter.

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: Because–

Val: Mm-hmm

Andrew: –you have people who are like, "Oh, wait, what? Schools are segregated? I had no idea!" You know? “I'm, my little preschooler, I'm starting to think about kindergarten, and I didn't even know this was a problem.” And then you have folks, right, who are, like, in the thick of it in middle school, like, "I need somebody who I can talk to–

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –about the ways that this is challenging that are different from the ways that my other friends are experiencing challenges in their school," and trying to hold–

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –all that together. But I mean, I think your point that, that we can't do it without community is, is so true. It's why there–

Elizabeth: Mm-mm.

Andrew: –are Integrated Schools chapters all over the country now, you know?

Elizabeth: Yeah. It's beautiful, too. I think that it's a really neat thing to see these people coming together over such an important thing and I think everyone really comes with vulnerability too. I think that that is the unifying thing, other than, like, thinking a little bit differently than the flow of the river.

But, to be like, "I don't have any answers. I don't know what I should do, so how do I come, how, how do I come to this place with vulnerability and openness?" And I think that that's a really, a really important place to start.

Val: I'm sitting with the idea of having to teach people how to be together. I don't know. It, it's, it's just….

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Val: It feels something. I feel something about it.

Elizabeth: That I, I don't know if I've ever thought about it in that way. The, like, teaching people to be together. So I am, I write about climate change, climate justice, social justice.

Val: Oh, fantastic!

Elizabeth: Education is a part of that. And so, like–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: –my thesis for my whole project, it's called Cramming for the Apocalypse. [Elizabeth laughs]

Val: I love this!

Elizabeth: Is, like, how do we learn how to be in community with one another? Because that is really the only way we're gonna survive this, this apocalypse that's happening.

Val: Yeah.

Elizabeth: There’s a reason that we have been separated from one another. But when we come together, we see all of our humanity wrapped up in one another across difference. That is the only way we can survive and be together.

But people are hard to live with! I mean, I'm not saying it's easy. You know, people are, are complicated individuals.

And when you come together as a community, there will be challenges. There will be, you know–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: –times when you don't wanna go to the community meeting. [Elizabeth laughs] There–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: –will be times where you're just really annoyed with one other person.

But that is our survival, is to be able to figure that out. Because otherwise, it, what's the point?

And, and I think that, like, schools are a huge part of that! That is where we can teach that. It’s where we can–

Andrew: Exactly.

Elizabeth: –learn that.

Val: Right.

Elizabeth: So, like, it gets dow- down to that.

Andrew: Your son will be much better at this. To your point, Val, of, like, why do we have to teach people to get along, is that we just don't have practice. We one, we don't–

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: –have practice of being uncomfortable, right?

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: Which is set up to make us feel comfortable all the time, and so the first sign of discomfort, we wanna flee from it. And then, and then so few people get the opportunity to learn those skills about relating across difference from a young age. And it's so much easier when your kids are young.

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Andrew: And you think about like, what, right, what do you want your kids-- Do you want your kids to be good at math? Like, I don’t know, sounds like AI is gonna be pretty good at math for the foreseeable future! [Elizabeth laughs]

I want my kids to understand basic mathematic concepts, but, like, their ability to find shared humanity, their ability to get–

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Andrew: –along across lines of difference, that's the thing that's going to make them successful in the world.

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Andrew: That’s the thing that’s going to give them the opportunity to make the world into the, the better place that we want it to be. And to pass up the opportunity to learn that as a, as a child when it's much easier to learn things, to learn that in an environment where you're already learning all sorts of other things, like that, to me, that's the beauty of,

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: Integrated Schools.

Elizabeth: Absolutely.

Andrew: One of the things that is going on in Portland that is similar to the rest of the country is school closures. I know we have lots of folks, uh, out there listening who are dealing with their own version of the school closure conversation. It is very vibrant in Portland right now.

We have this sort of declining enrollment in major cities all across the country. Some of that is driven by privatization, some of that is, you know, people, moving out of cities or moving to homeschooling, other options that people found during COVID that they are sticking with. Some of it is just declining birth rates. You know, there are, there are fewer kids–

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –than there were. And so, like, all of those things are stacking up to mean we're having these conversations about school closures in so many places.

Set the scene in Portland a little bit. Tell us about the ways that school choice operates now, and then, you know, what the district is trying to do when it comes to school closure, school consolidation, right-sizing, as so many districts call it.

Yeah, give us the lay of the land in Portland.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Same story in Portland. Part of it is declining birth rates, but we also saw a huge loss of enrollment in Portland Public Schools since 2019. So I mean, what happened in between there? [Elizabeth laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Elizabeth: The COVID pandemic did a lot, did a number on public education in, in so many ways.

So we're about 43,000 students in, in Portland Public Schools. We lost around 6,000 students. And then I think they're projecting, like, another 6,000 between now and 2031.

And so then we have all these school buildings that are not very safe. And so, I think that the district, you know, they say that it's a budget issue, although I have to say that they've kind of, backtracked on the budget issue 'cause it's really not, like closing schools does not, uh, inherently save money.

But it is in the long run meant to save money because they can't afford to, to update all of these buildings.

Andrew: Tell us a little bit about the types of schools that exist in Portland Public Schools. And, you know, how people are using school choice to, you know, opt out or opt into various schools and kind of what that looks like.

Again, similar stories in, in all sorts of cities, but the, the lingo is slightly different from place to place.

Elizabeth: Yeah, it is. Um, so school choice exists in, in various ways. We have the, the typical go private school education. We have a number of charter schools that are contracted with the district, and we have focus option schools, which are technically magnet schools is what they're, they're called.

Andrew: I'm guessing that for the most part, the focus option schools tend to be Whiter and wealthier than the rest of the district, that neighborhood schools (particularly in neighborhoods that are more diverse) tend to be more diverse schools.

Elizabeth: Yeah, focus options are, are Whiter, wealthier than the rest of the schools.

Oh, and I'm missing one other element which is that we also have a bunch of dual language immersion programs that most of them are co-located at neighborhood schools, which is also another thing. And, those are lottery. So that is another way to opt out of your neighborhood school.

Andrew: Right. And so, the district is, is feeling like they've got too many buildings, they've got not enough kids to support the buildings and the kind of offerings that they currently have, and is now thinking about closing schools, or–

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –consolidating schools. And you have, have launched with some other parents Rightsizing the Right Way.

Tell us a bit about how that came to be and what you all are trying to achieve.

Elizabeth: We launched our campaign right at the beginning of the school year, which is really just asking the district to prioritize neighborhood schools. Like, that's simply our, our message—our, like, baseline message. It goes deeper than that.

Andrew: Right.

Elizabeth: Because it really is, like, if they've created a school system where they've essentially created private education that, that is funded with public funds, which are the focus options. Because whether you're tested or lotteried into, there's still a lot of barriers for people who are, are traditionally in historically underserved communities that, to access these, and it's shown in the numbers.

And so we also have, like, kind of done some calculations too just with PPS's data to see how much money and how many students actually flow out of neighborhood schools. And just to focus options, there were about 3,200 students that, because money goes with the students, that equals, like, direct student funding to the school, that, that's like $11,000 per student, that goes with them.

And so that was like $35 million that is disinvested from neighborhood schools. If you add charter schools on top of that, that doubles. So it's like over 6,000.

That's the number of students that we lost since 2019. That is also the number of students that neighborhood schools do not have.

And then a lot of these, focus option schools can, can cap their enrollment. And so they are never going to have a s- class size issue. We've also been working with the special education PTSA that is also doing some work on, on this.

But they have said that there are also some barriers that a lot of these focus options put in to limit the number of students with disabilities who can attend some of these schools too. And so, it's pretty problematic in a lot of ways because that also represents, like, resources that aren't going to the neighborhood schools.

We are just fighting for the bare minimum at our neighborhood schools. Our neighborhood schools are the heart and soul of public education, and if you are not even, like, thinking about closing some of these schools that actually extract from them, then what are you doing?

So the scenarios came out in October, and–

Andrew: And these are the, the schools that they're considering actually closing. Kind of like–

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: –now they, like, actually, rather than saying, "We are considering closing schools," they're talking about actual schools that would actually be closed. And I'm guessing that that's when people finally showed up to, to participate in the process. [Elizabeth laughs]

Elizabeth: There's a lot of, like, people who are mad that, that they don't think that they're being listened to. But I think it's hard to, to navigate what the potential is when it's all hypothetical.

Then when you have... I mean, it is, it's closing schools, but it's also that and so much more. Like, they're looking at transforming K-8 programs to K-5 schools. They're proposing to consolidate the dual language immersion programs so that there's more resources there.

So, on the surface, the easiest thing to understand is that there are schools that are gonna be closed if these scenarios go through.

Scenario A is 14 elementary schools, and scenario B is 11. There are a couple of focus option schools that are affected.

The interesting thing, though, is that those three focus options are the most diverse of the focus options. So, like, in a scenario where every single child in this, district is essentially affected by whatever right-sizing could be, these schools, like, have, th-they stay the same. And so,that is a really frustrating thing to see because we know that it is largely due to the fact that the parents would probably just leave the district.

Not all of them, but I'd say a lot of the parents, like, if their school closes, they're out. And so, it's really hard because I do understand why the district would not want to close these schools and lose, like, you know, a couple thousand students in one go, but at the same time, they're gonna lose families because it is kind of utter chaos right now.

But, I feel like it's just these are things that you have to have long-term thinking about it. And, like, the long-term thinking is that if you have to, like, realize that the, the resources that are being invested in these ver- seemingly private schools, need to be redirected towards neighborhood schools.

And once you do that and give the proper supports, you have the adequate special education, you have talented and gifted programming in all schools. You might even have room for special programming! I don’t know!

Val: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm!

Elizabeth: You know, then, like, people want to send their students to neighborhood schools.

So, like, the Integrated Schools part of it is, like, choice is, like, a big part of, like, and where families go, but you also have to work with the system that has, like, really created an untenable situation for neighborhood schools. And, and this was an opportunity to do that, so that's kind of what we're doing at Rightsizing the Right Way.

Val: Yeah. Who are you organizing with? Like, who is part of the group?

Elizabeth: We're, we're all parents. So the eight of us organizers are, represent different schools around the city. Mostly elementary school, some, like, have middle schoolers now. I mean, we all kind of speak the same language, like as far as–

Val: Yeah.

Elizabeth: –Integrated Schools goes. And then we have a petition out. So we have about 450 people have signed this petition, which is for a grassroots thing that–

Val: Mm-hmm!

Elizabeth: –doesn’t have a, that didn't have a platform, it is pretty good. Representing about 57 school communities, which is pretty amazing.

Andrew: Yeah.

Elizabeth: We collaborate pretty closely with, there's a Title I coalition, and then we also have an allyship with the, the special education parents group.

Val: Elizabeth, what are you trying to achieve in this? And if you don't achieve that thing? 'Cause I was, I was fixing everything in my kids' district.

I was... I only needed two years. It didn't happen! [Val laughs]

Andrew: Hasn't, hasn't happened yet. Hasn't happened.

Val: Hasn't happened yet. But that was, that was my plan. And so, what do you hope to achieve if you don't achieve, like, the thing that your group is organizing around?

Elizabeth: Ooh. I mean, honestly, I haven't had a whole lot of hope that they would. I, I feel like we're, really swimming against the tide in this.

I mean, I would love it if, you know, pie in the sky, we just fully just go back to neighborhood schools. But that, I, I, I mean, is not gonna happen. I honestly think that this is a moment where people are having a little bit of a reckoning with “What is public schools?” You know? At, at the very least, there are a lot of people who are now aware of Integrated Schools and also the problems with school choice.

And I think that that to me is, it's not enough, but it's something. And just the fact that I have this, like, 450-person list of people–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: –who I, you know, they're on our Substack now. After this, we're not stopping. I don't know, like, what it will look like.

But I'm all about harnessing the energy that's there, and something else will come after this. You know, I have 450 people who now, like, know the language of Integrated Schools and can push back on school choice in their own way.

And so I don’t, I don't think we're gonna get what we want. I mean, I know that, like, I'm realistic in that! I would like to.

Val: I was not. I was not. [Elizabeth laughs] And but I wanted you to, I wanted you to take a walk down your, the wins that you already have, because it's gonna feel like you're just beating your head up against the wall. And so, all of these wins really do matter.

Elizabeth: They do! Yeah.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Elizabeth: We launched the campaign, like, August 31st, and then the scenarios came out O- October 5th or something. And so we had a whole month where we were just, like, trying to get these signatures and kind of slogging it through, and then doing a lot of arguing in emails. But then when the scenarios were published, we doubled our signatures within a week. But then also, like, I even have friends who were kind of like, "I wasn't quite sure, 'cause it seemed like it was divisive,” but now they're like, "Now I get it." And I think that that's also like, the, the kind of human nature thing. It- we're so busy, especially as parents. We're just trying to get our kids to, like, the practices and stuff, that, like, understanding the nuance- nuances of e- of education policy is gonna be really hard!

Andrew: Right.

Elizabeth: Until you kinda see it in action. So, like, I really do feel like this is a huge education process for a lot of people to understand how our education system works, and how it doesn't work for so many people.

I have felt like it's a big win just to even have our messaging out there, and all these people seeing what we're saying in practice.

Andrew: The thing that’s so important to me of, in that is like that, that month you had that felt like a slog, that felt, like, “Does this mean anything? Are we actually doing anything?” It was only because of that time and energy and investment that you all put in, that when the scenarios came out and people were really finally ready to engage, you were there to c-ca-catch them.

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Andrew: Right? Like, that petition had to exist. Those people had to be there having the conversation. People had to be aware that you were engaged in the conversation to then be a place that people could show up. And I think that's, like, another important message for listeners to take is like it, it, it's not always glamorous. It's not always the, like, “you put out the petition, and it goes viral, and all of a sudden everybody's on your side.” Like there is, there is slogging grunt work.

I think there's about this a lot, kind of in the national scene with regards to Integrated Schools work is, like, after George Floyd was murdered, a lot of people were interested in what we had to offer. And the only reason they were able to find us is because of all the work that happened before then. The work that Courtney Mykytyn did, the work that those other folks who took it along–

Elizabeth: Yeah, there were seasons of the podcast already.

Andrew: Right. Already ready for it, right? And so that, like,

Elizabeth: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: That organizing work, that finding those people who are the most dedicated, who are the most committed, who feel the most sense of like, "Oh, I finally found my people," and activating them in some way, even if it doesn't feel immediately effective.

You didn't, like, get a bunch of people together, launch your campaign on August 31st, and by mid-September everything was solved. It feels like a grind, but it's that, it's–

Elizabeth: Yeah.

Andrew: –that tilling the soil. It's that planting the seeds so that when the time is right, something can bloom. And, and like you said, maybe what–

Elizabeth: Mm.

Andrew: –blooms isn’t the final solution that you all hoped for, but you're still tilling the soil.

You're still planting the seeds. You're still watering those things so that the next thing that comes up, you've got four hundred and fifty people instead of four people. You've got, you know, people who have some experience with the language, who have understood something more about how the school system works, that they are even more ready to be activated and then go find their four or five or six friends and bring them in.

And that kind of constant organizing and, and growing of a movement is always a worthwhile investment, even if the immediate payoff doesn't show up.

Elizabeth: Yeah! Absolutely. If anyone is interested in, like, doing something in their community that's similar to this, I'd be happy to talk to you about it and also share resources. Like, we should not be building this from scratch!

Val: Yay!

Elizabeth: Yeah. I mean, like, some of the stuff is gonna be different 'cause the data's gonna be different. But I say data because I do think people see the data very clearly when you actually present it in certain ways. And I also have, kind of, some tips on, like, how to approach it as well. Like, I think, you know, part of it is, like, finding your people, finding the team of people who see the world similarly to you but also help challenge you all to think differently.

But then also, you know, ways to approach it, too. Like, I think that for me, I've... it has helped to really see the people who are, I guess, technically my adversaries in this with respect and, like, know that we're all-- we all want the best for our own kids. But–

Val: We do.

Elizabeth: –so how can we bring that to all kids? So, like, having to really, um, think about it that way, and that's how I've been able to really approach the kind of challenging conversations, with people who are not very nice to me, but I can take it when I'm like, "You know, it's... I see where you're coming from,” you know? But, also… [Elizabeth laughs]. “But, and!” [Elizabeth laughs]

Andrew: Right. That's beautiful.

Val: That is beautiful

Andrew: Yeah, we'll put your contact info in the show notes, so if folks wanna get in touch, they can. To kind of wrap up here, what have you taken from, you know, Integrated Schools, you finding the organization when you did, the resources Integrated Schools has provided, and then your own journey stepping into this more leadership role with the organization? What has it meant to you and, and what has it done for you and your family?

Elizabeth: Mmm. Oh gosh, so much. I mean, I think Integrated Schools helped give me the language for what I was already feeling and, and not sure where to, to channel that. And then beyond that, finding the community. I think that that is, that is the essential part of it.

And we've given Integrated Schools a shout-out a few times in our Substack, mainly because to give people and readers context on kind of where we're coming from, because I think the approach to our campaign is in the spirit of Integrated Schools. It is in the spirit of, you know, creating a multiracial society that benefits everybody. And I do think that the, the schools are kind of ground zero with this.

And so, really where I think our approach has come from is the, the, the Integrated Schools values and approach that has also been kind of a guiding star for, for, for where we're going with this.

And I think that that is, you know, priceless.

Andrew: Thank you! Thank you for doing this work. Thank you for being–

Val: Thank you so much!

Elizabeth: Yeah!

Andrew: For being there in Portland, for gathering community. Um, certainly any listeners in Portland should get in touch and connect with the chapter if you're not already. If you are somewhere else, I think we've got 48 either chapters or network contacts across the country now, so there's probably someone close to you.

And if you don't see somebody close to you, maybe you should be that person. Step up and–

Val: It sounds like Elizabeth gave you the, the tools to start your own! [Elizabeth laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. Absolutely. We’d love to have you. We’re just so grateful that you're there doing that work and for coming on the podcast.

Elizabeth: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for having me!

Val: Thank you.

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Andrew: So Val, what'd you think?

Val: First of all, I want to say, I am so inspired by talking to people who are taking action in their community at all. To bring people together to solve a problem that might be too big for them to solve in their lifetime.

Andrew: Right.

Val: And for whatever reason, that type of hope and action is super inspiring to me,

Andrew: Definitely.

Val: And it puts meaning behind being here on Earth, right? I don't think we're just here to consume, and to take, or to be isolated. I think we are here to join together and to do good. You know, I, I firmly believe that, and so thank you, Elizabeth, for, for modeling that for our listeners, um today.

She said a bunch of things that stood out to me, and one thing that I'm sitting with is that idea of choosing integration. And so when Elizabeth talked about just her own upbringing, the community she's from, the choices that she made, because our communities are so segregated generally, it is a requirement, (especially for our White and affluent folks) to choose to have a different experience, to live around different people, to expose oneself to something that's outside of your bubble.

Andrew: It's very easy to stay in your bubble.

Val: It's so easy to stay in your bubble.

Andrew: The systems are set up to stay in your bubble. Yep.

Val: Now, I'm gonna be honest with you. My bubble has to have a Taco Bell in like the, a, a 10-minute driving radius. [Val and Andrew laugh] So if I can stay in that bubble, we're good! We're good.

Andrew: Yeah

Val: And I didn't realize, like, my own bubble growing up. I, I, I recognized I lived in my city, you know, a pretty Black city.

I just assumed that's how the world works. And so if I apply that thinking to White or affluent folks, you're like, "Oh, this is just the way the world is." And it wasn't until I went to undergrad at a predominantly White institution, a PWI, that I realized honestly there were that many White people. I, I….

Andrew: Right.

Val: I just didn't know. It just, I just, I'm like, "It's a lot! That's a lot of White people. When did that happen?" Right? And so, unless you choose to go into a different environment or you're forced into a different vi- you, you could genuinely not know. And so I am extending grace to folks who are listening that say, "I genuinely didn't know."

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I believe you.

Andrew: For sure.

Val: I believe you.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And I think about it in terms of the other places I have privilege, whether that's citizenship, being able-bodied. Like, I just genuinely didn't know, and forgive me for not knowing and I'm trying to know better and do better. And so, for that choosing integration requires many things.

One, I think it requires some critical incident. That there's some exposure of some kind.

Andrew: The “a-ha” moment.

Val: The aha moment, right? And for many people that may have been George Floyd, that may have been Trayvon Martin. That, just something that happened that kind of opened your eyes to another part of the world.

And that is the, a first and very important step. And I think the step to taking action on that, it's, might be the hardest.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Because you can know better and not do better.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: For a really long time.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: You can know better, like, internally, and still not choose an integrated school for your child.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Or you can know and maybe choose an integrated school for your child while it was still cool and hip, and then choose differently when it becomes...

Yeah, when it gets hard, right?

Andrew: For sure.

Val: And that's such a significant point that I don't want our listeners to miss. Like, the choice is not just a one-time choice. It's a choice to learn more, truly. It's a choice when it's hard. It's a choice when you're confused. It's a choice when it does not look like it's gonna turn out well.

Like, you're constantly having to make that choice.

Andrew: It's hard to get out of the river, you know what I mean? It's like what Elizabeth said is, like, she feels like part of her job there is just, like, interrupting that. Because there are a lot of people who just are never asked to think about it, you know?

Or, like to your point, we wanna do something, we know better, and so we wanna do better. And then we're offered up things that feel like doing better, like posting on social media or, like–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –putting up a Black Lives Matter sign. But, what is that actually doing? What's the actual “do better” there?

Val: Mm.

Andrew: You know, is why I think, the chapter work that Integrated Schools does is so powerful, is it serves as a place to try to interrupt those conversations. To try to just stop people for a second and be like, "Hey, hang on a second. Have you thought about this?" And then, if they're open to it, and they go, like, "Oh, crap, I hadn't thought about that. Now I'd like to think about that," to create that community. Because like you said, it's hard. It's every day, it's ongoing, and you need community to support you through that. You need people who are in the work with you who are feeling similar things, who are having similar challenges, to hold you through those moments.

And that's where that piece of community feels so important.

Val: Yeah. The fact that much of this work is happening in conversation, in chapter meetings, I think is something else that we don't want to lose.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: So, different from just a book club or just, like, a PTA, I think being a, a part of an Integrated Schools chapter does require some vulnerability around your most precious gift.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Right? Your child. Or, or a child that you're taking care of. And we all know how scary it is to parent, right? You don't have unlimited chances at this, and the stakes are high. And so you want to do this right. And as a person who aims to do things right all the time, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself to, to figure that out.

And like you mentioned, if it's going against everything around you, everyone around you, that adds an additional layer of like, "This is hard."

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And so that community….There's no way you can make it without the community.

Andrew: I'd also think the, in the sort of short term, like, you know, the immediate, you're going against the grain and something goes wrong, and your instinct is to just abandon and be like, "Well, this was a stupid idea. I'm going back to what everyone else is doing." And so having that community to hold you through that is really important.

But something else that Elizabeth said that's really been sticking with me is like, what, like how, how do we possibly create the world that we want to create without community?

Val: Right.

Andrew: How do we possibly overcome the challenges that we are facing as a society without building community, without finding each other, without coming together across lines of difference. Without finding each other's shared humanity? And, you know, she got to Portland, moving from Baltimore, was like, h-how am I gonna maintain these kind of–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –cross-racial, cross-class relationships that I'm used to having? And it's very hard to do because so much is set up to keep us separated. And schools are one place where you can actually do that, where you can actually lean in and find those opportunities to create those relationships. That are both fulfilling for your own life, fulfilling for your family's life, and also a way to be part of that act of creating the society that we want, be part of creating that community and being part of a community that is our only hope for salvation.

Val: Yeah. So I'm glad you brought that up. There was a question that I had, just in listening to Elizabeth and thinking about your new role, right? That you are with young people regularly doing some teaching. And we talk about how schools are the place where we can practice these skills. And I'm curious, friend, I wrote it down.

How are you doing in that effort? Do you feel like you have time to do that?

Andrew: It is, uh, it's something that I think about.

Val: Yeah

Andrew: And I also feel like I'm drowning a bit 'cause I don't know, I don't even know how to teach the content that I'm supposed to be teaching, [Val laughs] much less add that on top of it, you know? I don't have training in that.

I try to be thoughtful about the environment that I'm creating. I try to be thoughtful about how I'm building relationships with all of my students. I try to be thoughtful about creating spaces where students feel like they belong and feel like the space belongs to them, that they are, like, contributing and changing things.

And, I have no idea how well that's going. [Andrew chuckles]

Val: Yeah!

Andrew: I have no way of knowing, you know, um, how much of that is, like, getting through to the students. And, and yeah, the time thing is real, you know? Like, it's, uh–

Val: It's real.

Andrew: I feel like I'm drinking from a fire hose a bit, and adding that on top does feel like something I would really like to be spending a lot of time and energy thinking about, and probably am not giving as much time and energy as I would like to.

Val: Yeah. And I'm, I'm coming at this from, also being an alternatively certified teacher when I first started, before, you know, I became teacher of the year. [Audio track of applause] But, you know, there's a path! [Val laughs] And so you're right. You have the content that you're teaching. You have the young people in front of you.

You have how to teach, and then you have the reality of, like, trying to create the world in which we can all do this well.

Andrew: Yeah

Val: And… it's a lot. And so I also want to emphasize to, to our listeners, while we deeply believe that this work is possible in schools, we also need to invest in, one, our teachers in having this conversation. The time to do it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: You know? And, while it is the expectation that bringing young people together to have these conversations can happen in school, the system is not set up for us to do that efficiently. And so, emphasizing to our parents and caregivers, we, we know this can happen in schools, and don't leave it only up to our educators to have to carry that responsibility, right?

Andrew: For sure.

Val: And so, if you can start these conversations at home, if you can start helping your, your students think critically about any number of things that are happening in the world.

None of us really, because, again, the systems in which we've gr- grown up, actually know how to do this that much better than anybody else.

Andrew: Right.

Val: Some of us just have a little more practice, maybe in one area of it, right? I have a little more practice when it comes to race.

Not nearly enough practice when it comes to citizenship and immigration.

Andrew: Disability, gender. Yeah.

Val: Like, I…. Not nearly enough. And so, knowing that your humanity is enough expertise to get started, I think is, is really important, right? Just you being human and you being aware is enough to get started.

Andrew: And curious.

Val: Yes!

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I'm, I'm feeling hopeful today!

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: You picked a good day to record this conversation! [Val laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. And those are conversations that have to happen over and over and over again, and there's, like, all sorts of stuff that you find you're unpacking, and just as when you feel like, "Okay, I've really got a handle on this," then something else happens, and you realize you're like, you're still very much a learner.

And that's why I'm so grateful that there are so many chapters of Integrated Schools out there that are–

Val: Same.

Andrew: –holding space for those kind of conversations. Yeah! It's important work.

Val: Keep up the good work, y'all!

Andrew: Absolutely! And that work requires resources! So,

Val: That's right.

Andrew: If you are inspired by your local Integrated Schools chapter, if you're inspired by Elizabeth's story of the work that Integrated Schools is doing in Portland, and you wanna be supportive of that, we would be grateful for that. You can head to the website integratedschools.org, click on that big red “donate” button, or join our Patreon, patreon.com/integratedschools, and show your support for this work with a small financial contribution. Or a large one, for that matter.

Val: That's right. We take large ones. We also take your stories. We want to hear from you. And so if there's something that's happening in your community, whether or not you're part of an Integrated Schools chapter, please call us. Let us know. Lots of people can learn from it.

We want to elevate those stories and what's actually happening in your communities. You can email us a voice note at podcasts@integratedschools.org.

Andrew: Yep

Val: Or, you can go to speakpipe.com/integratedschools. That's SpeakPipe, S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E.com/integratedschools to leave us a voice note there as well. We wanna hear from you!

Andrew: Yes, there are so many stories that feel unique to places where you might be, and what I have found in all the time I've been doing this work is that those stories tend to show up in many different places.

The terminology might be slightly different, the facts on the ground might alter slightly, but the underlying story is the same throughout the country. And so, even if you feel like you've got a very niche story from your city, we want to hear about it because we think there's something universal in all of those stories that we'd love to share with the audience.

Val: That's right. And definitely the first thing you should do is share the podcast. So, share this episode or many of your other favorites. Invite people into conversation, even if it's your own children.

Andrew: Yes, a great tool to build community is conversation about topics that matter. So, do that. This was certainly a conversation that mattered to me. So grateful to Elizabeth for the work she's doing in Portland.

Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: And for this deep dive on school closures that's happening all across the country right now.

And always grateful to be in these conversations with you, Val, as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time.

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