S12E8 – Demystifying Disability with Emily Ladau

S12E8 - Demystifying Disability with Emily Ladau

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Demystifying Disability with Emily Ladau. And Val, we are back! It is 2026. The holidays are over. We are back at it.

Val: We have survived the holiday season, only to enter 2026.

Andrew: My. What a, what an entry it has been. We, we thought things were rough going into the end of 2025, and 2026 is… not holding back.

Val: It's been a year already! Um, and a lot of people are going through it. And we wanna, we wanna take a moment to acknowledge that.

Andrew: Tough times. We have got a lot of listeners and a big chapter in Minneapolis, particularly rough for them these days. We are certainly sending a lot of love and thoughts to Minneapolis right now.

Val: Yeah. And as families are grappling with rising healthcare premiums, a loss of resources at their schools or in their communities, we are there with you. We know it's tough right now. And we're sorry that this is happening.

Andrew: Yes, it has been, uh, been a tough start to the year for sure. But I think that wherever we can find community, wherever we can find connection with each other is a good place to turn.

And certainly one of the places that I always find great connection is in the Integrated Schools Book Club. So, if folks have not participated in Book Club before, there's four sessions coming up, uh, very end of January and the beginning of February. Great people having a conversation about a book.

And the book we are talking about this go around is written by Emily Ladau. It is called Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to Be An Ally. And Emily was gracious enough to come and chat with us about her book and about her work and about disability in general.

And it was a really lovely conversation.

Val: Emily is so lovely! Um, and I think the conversation was an opportunity to revisit some ideas around disability and how ableism shows up in ourselves and our community. And it's good to keep those conversations at the surface so that we continue to get better as a community supporting one another.

Andrew: Certainly, I think is, one of the places we have not had as many conversations on the podcast as we probably should have. Um, we talk a lot about all sorts of -isms and ableism probably doesn't come up nearly as much as it should. And so, grateful that, uh, Emily wrote this book, which is really a fantastic kind of primer on disability. A great entry point for anybody who is remotely curious about conversations about disability, about language choices, about etiquette, about the history of the disability rights movement is all packed into the book.

And, um, I found Emily to be so knowledgeable and passionate, but also open and welcoming and willing to meet people wherever they are in conversations about disability. Which I certainly appreciated. And as a, you know, a reminder that wherever people are on their journeys around being better humans, you know, grace is what we need to meet people wherever they're at if they're willing to come on a journey. And I think she really exemplifies that.

Val: Yeah. You used the word curious, and I think that's really important because one thing that we know for sure is that if we have the gift of getting older (right?), we will need aids in our life in some way. Whether it is to get around, whether it's, uh, a medicine to keep us healthy. We all, regardless of class, race, citizenship status, can enter in this space of needing support because of a disability. And so, not only because we want to do good for our neighbors, but we should all be curious about this because we want to help create a world in which we are all taking care of each other, regardless of our ability status.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think the idea of solidarity, really hits home when you start talking about disability because unlike many other marginalized identities, the disability community is one that, that many of us will find ourselves a part of at some point in our lives, if not all of us if we are fortunate enough to live that long. So, um, it is a good reminder that when we build systems that create belonging for everyone, we are doing that to benefit everyone, including ourselves.

Val: We should all care. Not only because it could be us, but because we have friends, neighbors, community members right now who could thrive if people who aren't thinking about being disabled actually spent some time being curious about that experience. Right? Like, if we all spend that time now, then we can make the world better for them, and everyone.

Andrew: Right. Because, because a world in which everyone is able to participate more fully is a more rich, a more full world in which we all, we all benefit from that, for sure.

Val: That's right.

Andrew: So, encourage everyone to sign up for Book Club. There'll be links in the show notes, or you can just go to integratedschools.org/bookclub and find a session.

Great facilitation in those sessions and small group conversations. Uh, it's a great way to connect with other people and just feel a little closer to people. You can buy the book at our bookshop.org link. There'll be a link to that as well. You'll support a local bookshop and also a portion of the proceeds will come back to Integrated Schools. And even if you don't get a chance to read the book, just having listened to this conversation with Emily Ladau will certainly set you up to have a fruitful conversation in Book Club. So, we encourage you to do that and, uh, I think we should take a listen to Emily, what do you say?

Val: We should!

[THEME MUSIC]

Emily: Hi! I am Emily Ladau. I am a disability rights activist. I am the author of a book called Demystifying Disability: What to Know, What to Say, and How to Be an Ally. And I am incredibly passionate about having conversations about disability and really engaging people to talk about a topic that they might otherwise feel uncomfortable with and really making it approachable and accessible to them.

Val: Thank you.

Andrew: That comes through in the book. Demystifying Disability, why did this book need to exist and how did you come to write it?

Emily: I want to give a very important caveat that I don't consider myself at all some kind of sole expert on the disability experience. There are more than a billion people around the world who have some type of disability. And that means that you're going to have more than a billion experiences and opinions around disability. So I am one person who contributed one piece of writing to a much broader conversation.

But, I had never really considered writing a book specifically like this one until my literary agent actually found me after I recorded a podcast episode about disability. We came to the realization that there was a gap in the market for any kind of 101 book about disability that approached it in a really non-judgmental and approachable way.

So we took the chance, and I am really, really glad that I was able to contribute this work to the broader conversation. But it's not the Bible on disability. It's not the encyclopedia on disability, it's just what I hope is a tool that people can pull down off the shelves if they have a question about language, if they're looking for something about disability history, if they need a, an etiquette question answered, and it will give them a starting point in a non-judgmental, safe place.

Val: Those types of writings and pieces are, are so important for people to build their confidence to engage in conversations later. Right? So many people opt out of even having the conversation because they feel like they don't have the language, or the right, or the knowledge to engage.

And so, I just wanted to thank you for recognizing that gap in, in the market and, and filling it.

Emily: You’re touching on something that's so important to me because in order to be effective advocates for any kind of social justice, we first need the tools, and the resources, and the understanding. But often we are not socialized to think about disability at all. Or if we are taught about disability, it's usually from a, a very negative medicalized perspective, and we don't look at it as a cultural identity with a history and a community connected to it.

So, I want people to feel like they have the space to learn about disability so that they can effectively engage in the conversations and the work. Because I know that it's not taught in our history curricula, it's not something that we are exposed to accurate, nuanced portrayals of nearly enough in the media.

So, we can't expect that people know how to approach the conversations without having the tools to do that. But that being said, there's a flip side to that, which is I don't want people to feel so worried about making a mistake that they don't get involved in the conversation in the first place. I don't want you to get bogged down in specific rules, but I also want you to have a working knowledge so that you feel like you belong in the broader work.

Val: Thank you.

Andrew: And the book definitely does that. I feel just, just from having read it feels so much more qualified to start engaging in those conversations in, in new ways. I really appreciate it. Going back a little bit, how did you start communicating about disability?

Why is it something that, that you care about and have dedicated so much time and energy to?

Emily: I was born with a physical disability called Larson Syndrome, so it's a joint and muscle disorder. Um, I use a wheelchair to get around and I have multiple other disabilities and chronic health conditions.

So disability has always been a part of my life, but it was not always an identity that I embraced proudly. When I was younger, I always tell people that the biggest compliment that you could pay me was to say, “Oh, I forgot that you use a wheelchair,” or, “I don't think of you as disabled.”

And it wasn't until I started to get a bit older that I realized, well, when you're saying this to me, what you're actually saying is the only way that I see the whole of your humanity is by erasing a part of it.

And I think a lot of why I found it to be a compliment in the first place is because I grew up being a very apparently disabled person in a mainstream public school where there were pretty much no other children who had apparent physical disabilities.

I was the only wheelchair user in my grade and one of just a handful of kids who had apparent disabilities in the school system. So, I wanted to ignore that part of me so that I could fit in. But later on I realized that by ignoring that part of me, I was giving other people permission to ignore that part of me and not to see me for my whole self.

Val: That feels like a big deal. The idea that we are socialized so much so in the “We wanna fit in” that we actively feel like ignoring part of ourselves is the best way to do that. I had not thought until you just said it, what, that gives permission for people to do to us as well. And not maliciously, you know?

Emily: I think you raise a point that actually really resonates with me in the sense that most people are not malicious in their intent. And I know for example, that I also grew up in a very, very White area. And that bubble for me was not popped until I went to college. And at that point, as much as I was asking people to better understand my experience as a disabled woman, that did not absolve me of the work of better understanding that my narrative as a White woman had been so limited in scope for so long that I needed to expand my thinking about what it means to be a person in the world, really.

And so, I think that's where I've learned to give people more grace.

Val: Same.

Emily: I understand what it's like to be confronted with the fact that you grew up in a bubble and you now need to have a reality check and see what the world actually looks like.

Val: Yeah.

Emily: And so, as I learned to do that for identities and experiences and cultures outside of my own, I'm also more willing to give people grace–

Val: Mm-hmm.

Emily: –to do the same and to try to be a support as they're popping their bubbles. And I'm not saying that we owe continued grace if people are showing that the intent is in fact malicious.

Val: Right.

Emily: But I am saying that I'm trying to start from a place of meeting people where they are. And I know that disability is so relegated to the sidelines.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Emily: It makes sense why people don't necessarily have a grasp on how to talk about it, and I'm hoping to ease people into it so that it doesn't feel so scary.

Val: That's where, that's where my grace comes from too. I need so much grace that it feels easy to be able to offer grace to other people as they are trying to figure it out, as they are actively working to figure out how to be better allies, better supporters, better humans, you know?

Emily: Yeah.

Andrew: It seems like your, your whole career, Emily, has been about offering that grace to a number of people in a number of places. And being willing to engage in conversations. What are the things that you have come across in, in doing that work that help you sustain that? Tapping you into that grace to be able to continue to have these conversations?

Because I'm guessing they're not always instantly revelatory that people are, are immediately, sort of, brought over to the other side.

Emily: You're right. It is exhausting in a way to feel like a, a teachable moment all the time. And, it's not as though I take my identities off and put them on a shelf at night. I am always disabled, and so I can't flip that switch off even when I don't wanna be in advocate mode or educator mode. And it can be a lot to hold. But at the same time, I feel like it's harder to hold the bitterness and the resentment that comes with expecting people to simply get it and to understand, when you're not willing to meet them at least part of the way.

And that's not always a popular opinion among social justice movements and circles. I know that there are people who feel that I pander to the non-disabled community. On the flip side, there are non-disabled people who feel that I am too radical. And I can't win and I can't please everyone, but what I can do is remind myself that if I can change one person's mind, if I can shift one person's thinking, that is going to have a ripple effect. And I am 0% a motivational speaker, but this is the closest I ever get to it when I remind people that the ripple effect is a real thing. Because when you're tired and you don't wanna keep doing this anymore, if you've impacted one person, that one person will in turn impact someone else. And it's not a small thing to shift one person's thinking.

So, that is what keeps me going, even if it sounds really cliche and like I just pulled it out of a self-help book, it has been the mindset that I have needed in order to not just collapse completely and give up.

Val: I think not often enough do I find someone with, like, a parallel worldview on, on how to approach this work, right? Are you a Marvel, are you a Marvel fan?

Emily: I, I am. I'm not super well versed in the Marvel Universe, but I've seen enough of the films.

Val: Okay, cool! So, you know, Dr. Strange, he's sitting there at, you know, doing the calculations and he's like, “There's one way out of this that we,” like, there's one way out of this, and I feel like I've done the same calculations and it's one way out of this, and this is together. That's, that's the only way out of this!

And so, we have to figure out how to do that. And until I run out, until I am empty of all that I have to give, it, it's, it's gonna have to be my strategy, you know, to try to get as many people on board as possible. And it's not easy work. And I think if you are only operating in an echo chamber, then you might not honor or respect the work that it takes to get outside of that echo chamber, to get someone to, like, listen to you. To pause in their thinking. To, to reflect again, to have an “A-ha!”

Sometimes those “A-ha”s take years. Finally five years later, they're like, “Oh, Val, I finally understand what you meant! Thank you for not, like, throwing me away five years ago.” Right? And I'm like, “Yeah, you know, you yeah, you were trying me, I was, you know, I was, I wanted to, I wanted to throw you away! I didn't, you know, but I thought about it.” You know? And so, it's important work.

I think we need all, all types of folks doing the work. I think we need folks who are the most radical to keep pushing us in that direction. And you need folks to serve as bridges between the people who are learning and our most radical friends.

Emily: I, I appreciate that sentiment and I think what you mentioned about echo chambers really strikes me too. Because I've seen echo chambers in both directions. I've seen, of course, the echo chambers of not connecting with people of a wide variety of identities and lived experiences. But I've also seen the echo chamber of where we are only talking to each other in movement related work, and neither one is effective.

So, to me, I don't want to be in either echo chamber. Because if I am just talking to the disability community, I am also not reaching the people who we want to bring into the conversation to make the world more accessible and inclusive in the first place.

Val: Right.

Emily: So, I always try to look at both sides of the equation where it's lovely to be in community, but we can't do that at the expense of shutting out the people who we are asking to include us.

Andrew: We had Loretta Ross on just recently, who has a book called Calling In, and she said something to the effect of, like, if, if, if White supremacy could be solved by Black people, it would've been solved already. I think similarly, if ableism could have been solved by disabled people, it would've been solved already. There feels like some real parallels here that we need, we need the folks who are, designing the world, and have potentially unearned power in the world to come around to the needs of all of our communities, to start thinking about what does a world look like that is designed by all of us to serve all of us.

Emily: Totally. And you're bringing up the parallels between combating White supremacy and combating ableism, recognizing the interplay between the two, and the fact that we can't fight back against either of them in silos, especially because disability is an identity cuts across all other identity groups. And it's also pretty much one of the only marginalized communities that anybody can join at any time. And I always say, you know, that's not a threat. We're cool, we're fun.

But the reality is that as I am pushing back against ableism, I can't just push back against ableism because that won't accomplish anything. It won't get me anywhere. So that's yet another silo, another echo chamber that I try to remove myself from because I also recognize the ways that ableism overlaps with so many other forms of discrimination, of oppression. And that's why I'm so careful to give the caveat that yes, I, I offer up my book and my work as a tool, as an entry point, but you can't take any one disabled person's work as the gospel.

You know, if you've met one disabled person, you've met one disabled person. And that's true of any person, of any minority group. I'm very lucky and privileged that I have the opportunity to communicate about disability and about the work that I do, but I'm hoping that it's just to point you in the direction to more people.

Val: What I also want us to elevate, is that, uh disability activists, disabled community also provides us with models of activism and solidarity too, right? So it's not just, “Hey, we see this group as another oppressed group.” It is also a group that has always organized, advocated, and brought people together as well.

And I think that's also what I hope out of conversations about ableism and disability is that there's a history of advocacy and activism in the community as well.

Emily: I think it's something that gets overlooked a lot in conversations about disability history, if we're even having conversations about disability history.

Val: Right.

Emily: But you know, one of the biggest moments in the disability rights movement was known as the Section 504 sit-ins, which was the longest occupation, peaceful occupation, of a federal building out in California, and it was to advocate for the implementation of section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act, which is essentially a law that provides equal access for disabled people to federally funded programs and services. And one of the things that doesn't get mentioned nearly enough is that the Black Panthers were a key part of that effort. And I know it's an older example at this point because it happened in the 1970s, but it's just one of the most powerful examples that I love to point to because it's a reminder of what cross movement solidarity actually looks like. And it's something that I've seen less and less of the more I do this work, which is heartbreaking but true.

Andrew: Why do you think that is? What's, what’s the barrier to cross movement, cross identity, solidarity in, in this work?

Emily: I think that we are being artificially pitted against each other in a fight for, you know, scarcity of resources. And rather than acknowledging, for example, that a school that is fully inclusive and integrated is a better experience for everyone, we’re instead worried about, you know, what will it take away for me and for my child and from their experience?

Look, I, I hate to get all like, oh, “It's the machine, it's the capitalist machine,” because there's so much more nuance to the conversation than that. But it is also true that we're forced to fight against each other when the resources aren't there. And I, I think about that in a very real way because the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act has been around for decades upon decades, and it's still not fully funded. And now not only is it not fully funded, but we're watching the dismantling of enforcement mechanisms for it.

And when I think about that already there was a scarcity of resources without the full funding, and now we're artificially being forced into even less resources. And so we're all fighting against each other for the crumbs that are being dropped.

And it's, it's challenging! Because we can't see the forest for the trees and see that we'd be much stronger if we worked together to get more than crumbs.

Val: Yeah. I think because there are crumbs, communities feel like they have to take care of their own, because other people won't.

Emily: Yes.

Val: I think that feels just more prevalent, you know, as of 2024 then in recent history. I really hope we are able to, to get out of this “I just got to take care of my own” mentality.

Emily: Yeah.

Andrew: Everyone should get the book. There's so much good content in there and, advice and, kind of, easy entry points for, for anybody wherever they are on their journey in terms of understanding disability. But, I wanna just hop into maybe a couple of the, of the areas that I've, I found really fascinating and I'm wondering if we can start with “identity first” versus “person first” language, and you can sort of give us an overview of, you know, what those are and, and how you think about using them.

Emily: I am a total word nerd. I love talking about language and, as I mentioned in the book, the way that we think shapes how we talk and the way that we talk shapes how we think. So it's very much a cycle, and that means that it's really important to be thoughtful and mindful of the language that we're using.

And when it comes to talking about disability, there's certainly no hard and fast rule, and I'm not here to tell anyone that they're doing something right or doing something wrong, but I am here to ask people to think very carefully about how they are communicating and what they are communicating.

In terms of person first and identity first language, um, a pretty, you know, brief overview of that is that person first language emerged from advocates with disabilities who said, “We are so tired of being seen not as whole humans, but only for our disabilities, and we are people with disabilities. We are people first.” And from that line of thinking emerged a response, which is, “Why do I need to separate my disability from my personhood in order for you to see me as a whole human being?”

To that end, people started to shift from saying “person with a disability” to “disabled person.” But that being said, there is no universal consensus on what's correct. The correct answer is what are you as someone who identifies as disabled, most comfortable with, for yourself?

And I really encourage people to, whenever they can, ask a person what their preference is. But if there's no opening to do that, what I tend to do is vary my language. So even in the midst of a conversation, you'll hear me say people with disabilities, disabled person, you'll hear me try to honor both ways of thinking. I do that in my writing too. And there is no perfect solution because there is no right answer.

But to me, if I can honor both ways of thinking, that's my pathway in to at least show I see you and I respect you no matter what it is that you choose to use to identify yourself.

Andrew: That’s such a powerful framing, because, I think on the internet, people get into, “Well, this is the, this is the way to do it. This is the right way to refer to a disabled person or a person with disabilities.” And, certainly the, the default, is like, “You, person, what do you, what do you like? What makes you feel seen?” You know, that is the only right answer. But, I feel the tension in both of those things that there is a tendency to erase somebody's personness and then a tendency to erase a key part of somebody's identity going the other direction and, and trying to walk that line. I mean, we're like, we're up against the, the systems and structures that make disability something that people would want to erase or want to avoid. And, it feels tricky, but I appreciate the, the nuance that you bring to that.

Emily: I also don't want people to get so bogged down in semantics that they won't approach the conversation at all. And I don't say semantics, dismissively, because I do think that language is very important. But if you are afraid to start the conversation because you don't know the right thing to say, I would rather you say the, quote, unquote, wrong thing, and then I will engage with you, and find a way to guide you to either my preference or to what's more broadly correct and acceptable.

Val: That type of response requires some reserves, but it also requires trust and trust building. Right? What are the ways in which you work to build that trust? Right? Because there's some people you're like, “I'm not even gonna bother explaining this to you 'cause I just don't feel like it,” you know. But there's some of, you're like, “I want, I want to go there with you because I actually am fond of you as a, as a human. And I, I, I want us to talk about this.”

Calling people in can activate a sense of shame and embarrassment. And then, the response can be, like, receptive all the way to like super defensive. And so how do you, how do you calculate that move?

Emily: I wish that there was a perfect answer to this question because goodness knows, I am still figuring it out. And I'm a big believer in the process of calling in as opposed to calling out in, in many situations. You know, bringing people quietly to the side and, and recognizing that human beings are naturally quick to be defensive and we're quick to jump into a shame spiral. So if there's a way that I can be gentle, I will be gentle.

But for me, I think the, the calculus is really what does the work of disability rights have to gain by having this conversation. So, I've noticed that we've reverted back to having conversations now about whether it's acceptable to use disability related slurs. And to me, I don't know that having a conversation with somebody who thinks that it's acceptable, for example, to use the R word, is going to be the best use of my time. Because it's not about language there. It's a total attitudinal shift that I'm looking for.

And that's not to say that I won't speak out against use of the R word. It's to say that I'm differentiating between “You’re a troll who is using this language to get a rise out of me,” versus “You’re a person who really just didn't have exposure to how to talk about disability. And you mean no ill will, and you mean no harm, even if you did harm.”

So the calculus for me is, am I fighting with someone who's never gonna see me as a whole human being, or am I engaging with someone who just needs a gentle course correction? And granted, it's true that I've encountered people where I've tried gentle course correction, and it's gone completely off the rails, and I've miscalculated how that interaction was gonna go, and that really is not fun. But it's a learning experience for me too. It's a tiring one, but that's how I choose to channel my energy.

Andrew: Similarly identity, first person, first language. My interest was peaked in the social model versus medical model of disability. I wonder if you can give us a little primer on that.

Emily: It is much the same as the identity first in person first, in the sense that there's not a right or wrong answer. So the medical model of disability essentially looks at disability through the lens of diagnosis. But it can also lean into this idea that disability is a problem to be fixed or cured or solved. That it requires intervention and it needs to be gotten rid of. And then, there's the social model of disability, which says disability is not a problem of the person, but rather it is a product of a person's environment.

So, for example, if I am as a wheelchair user in an environment where there's stairs, I'm disabled by the stairs. If there are no stairs, then by way of the social model, I'm not really disabled by anything because my environment is not a barrier to me.

I think that what a lot of advocates have kind of come to is the realization that the social model and the medical model need to coexist because it is true that disability is a diagnosis in the sense of, people may need support services, accommodations, medications, right? Treatments, and that's not treatments in the sense of we're trying to get rid of disability, it's treatments in the sense of you need medical support in order to navigate your day-to-day successfully. And then the social model is also true because there's no medication that I can take that's going to get rid of those stairs.

So to me, I see it as really a both/and. I do need support services. I do need proper healthcare. I also really need people to stop designing things that are inaccessible to people with disabilities.

Andrew: We need to make sure that there is access to healthcare, that there is access to ways to impact quality of life, both for the actual person who may be experiencing issues and to create a, a society and a structure in which it is much easier to exist regardless of your ability status. Because any one of us is, at any moment, on the cusp of being part of the disability community. Yeah.

Talk a little bit about ableism. We talk a lot about our own, blind spots around racism. A little bit about classism on the podcast. We have had a few conversations about ableism, but not nearly enough. And so, help us, help us sort of wrap our minds around ableism and how to be on the lookout for it.

Emily: The way that I think about ableism is that it is just so ingrained in our thought processes, and I define it pretty simply and straightforwardly as attitudes and actions and circumstances that devalue people on the basis of disability.

But that can show up in small ways in our language. And one thing that's interesting, if I may actually share a piece of feedback is you used the term “blind spots” when you were sharing, talking about different types of -isms, and I say this not to call you out, but to name that it is so ingrained.

I do this too. I say so often, and I have to catch myself, that I have “blind spots,” that it “fell on deaf ears,” that I'm using something “as a crutch,” right?

It is so ingrained into our language that we don't even recognize those attitudes within us. And that doesn't mean that a person who uses certain terminology is ableist. It just means that we have been building upon a foundation of ableism for so long.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Emily: That we don't recognize it when it shows up in our day-to-day conversation.

But it also shows up in so many bigger ways. I wanna talk about systemic ableism too, and the example of that that I give is transportation. So I am a New Yorker and the transportation system in New York City is notoriously a disaster, but it's also very, very inaccessible.

I have gotten trapped on subway platforms as a wheelchair user. I've gotten my wheel stuck in the gaps. I haven't been able to get on or off the train. The elevator's been broken. It's a mess! And you might think, “Okay, so find another option.” But the reality is that many, many people need to rely on public transportation, and when public transportation is inaccessible, how do you access education, employment, healthcare, socialization, going to exercise your right to vote? Grocery shopping! How do you get food?

To me, I want people to understand that ableism is just baked into our systems. Because when one system shuts you out, you cannot participate in another system. And when you cannot participate in another system, you are then essentially shut out of full participation in what should be a typical day-to-day life.

So ableism can be the small comments, it can be the big systems, and ableism truly is everywhere. And most of us have absolutely no ill intent, we just exist in a world that was not designed with disability in mind.

Val: Yeah. I was diagnosed with hypertension in 2016. Now I'm on a daily med. And I remember early on in the process, like, I was really grappling with my own internal ableism and what it meant to be like a “full human,” right? Because now I relied on a daily medication in order to live.

And I was like, “No, I can beat this.” You know, like, “I can outwork this. I can out, you know, I can make sure my eating is healthy or you know, I am working out enough.” And I really struggled with accepting, being outside of what I had identified as the norm with the needing assistance, you know, to life.

And that's when I came to grips was like, oh, this is what it, this is what internalized looks like for me, right? Like, I can fight for folks to have access to places and, you know, make sure they have all of their rights. But I hadn't until that point dealt with, “That's okay for everybody else to kinda experience, I just don't want that for me.”

And it was, it, it, was so eye-opening because I, again, this is why I need so much grace, it was like, “Oh, shoot, Val, like, have you really been as good of a, as an ally as you thought you were? Because it was okay if other people are dealing with it, but you didn't know how to respond when you were faced with it yourself.”

And so, that has been like an ongoing learning and unlearning for me. Conversations with my kids about it. Making sure that wholeness is not rooted in whatever like the, the physical thing is, but in who you are, like, in totality, right? I'm still trying to find the language for that myself.

Emily: I love that you shared this because I relate so deeply.

Val: Mm-Hmm.

Emily: Every time I acquire some kind of new diagnosis, and I feel like I collect them like Girl Scout badges, I find myself feeling bad about myself. feeling like it's some kind of moral failing, like I did something wrong. And I still, no matter how many times I will tell other people, don't apologize for your existence, I will still apologize for things like, “Oh, I'm so sorry I can't go to that place because it's not accessible.” No! Why are you apologizing for that? If you were literally anybody else, I would tell you stop apologizing. But for me, I'm like, “I'm a burden,” like, “You're trying to include me in your plans and I've just ruined everything. I should just stay home.” So, we always internalize attitudes that we, I hope, would not point in the direction of other people.

Val: Yeah.

Emily: And I am still working on that and I think it's just gonna be a lifelong journey. I think that every single time I feel like I'm some kind of a moral failure because of my disability, I try to at least turn it around on myself and say “What would I say if I was talking to another person?”

Val: That’s good!

Emily: Because I wouldn't want them to feel that way.

Val: No, thank you for that. That's a good reminder 'cause I have not, I have not thought to say that to myself yet, so thank you.

Andrew: I wanna talk about schools briefly. We, we talk a lot about the benefits of integration across lines of, you know, race and class in schools. And again, have not spent as much time, we've had a couple of episodes, but not nearly enough about disability. How do you think about, you know, sort of inclusive schooling environments that are giving the supports that are needed to students with disabilities, but also not recreating segregation within our school walls.

Emily: Schools are so often faced with a lack of tools and resources to do truly integrated inclusive education well. And that's not the fault of the schools, it's the fault of the system. I am a huge believer in truly inclusive education, but that starts from the ground up. It starts with ensuring that teacher education is mindful of disability. That it's not just one unit in a class or a section in a textbook or a one-time school project, but it's actually an ongoing concentration throughout your time learning to teach. And then once you get into a school system, being given the supports you need to be the best support that you can to your students, because teachers are asked to be all things to all students at all times, and I understand that.

And so, I really do see why inclusion can feel overwhelming. And it's not because inclusion is the wrong thing to do, it's because we're being given the wrong tools and resources if we're being given any tools and resources to do it in the first place. And to do it well.

So to me, I am forever an advocate for inclusive education. But more than that, I'm an advocate that we recognize it's not just about having disabled students in the classroom, it's about actually recognizing what we need to do to best serve all students. And the reality is, whether a student has an IEP or a 504 plan, whether they identify as disabled or not, every single student learns differently.

Val: Every single one! Right! [Val chuckles]

Emily: So it's to the benefit of every single student to diversify your lesson plans. Because, disability or not, you're going to have students who are tactile learners, who are audio learners, visual learners.

If you are already thinking about how you can engage students in a variety of ways, it's not to the detriment of any students, it's to the benefit of all of them.

Val: Yep. Yep. Preach. Preach.

Andrew: The idea of universal design, and we've talked a lot about, you know, belonging and creating spaces where students, you know, their presence actually changes the space. And I think that certainly applies a classroom that is designed to serve all kids regardless of this status is gonna serve all kids better. I love that idea.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Your work, your career has been on calling people in, on helping people understand better. I think to continue to engage in that work requires some hope. If you were to sort of, you know, envision out a world in which we have done a much better job of creating spaces that are accessible to all, regardless of disability status. Like, what does, what does that world look like? What do, what do we all gain from, from that world?

Emily: I often joke that I am just a professional disabled person. It's just disability 24/7 around here. But in reality, I'd be so thrilled to be out of business. I mean, I, I really mean that. I love what I do and I'm very passionate about engaging around disability, but I just, I wish that these conversations were old news at this point.

But that being said, I think that we can all take smaller actions to contribute to the whole. And one thing that I really urge people to do, and this is, I think just being a, a, a good person and just showing up in a good way for other people in your life is to say, “What can I do to support you and what can I do to make this accessible to you?” And opening up that conversation.

And I recognize that there are going to be people who are not going to return that to you, and that's going to feel like an energy drain. But you may also be opening up the lines of communication so that you're creating a more accessible environment for everyone.

And I think that especially applies in schools. You may not have the tools and the resources and the financial means to create exactly the ideal inclusive environment, but it really does cost nothing to say, “How can I support you to do your best work and to do your best learning? Let's work together and let's figure it out.”

Andrew: What's the world look like if we do that well?

Emily: Gosh, it, it feels like, um, some kind of beautiful, inclusive utopia. [Val chuckles] Um, not to be too cliche, but you, you know, more than that, I think it just feels like a world where we don't have to try so hard just to exist. And we can instead redirect our efforts to bettering the world instead of just trying to live in it.

Andrew: Thank you.

Val: Thank you! This was amazing!

Andrew: Thank you for the book. Thank you for all of your work, um, in this space, if, if people want to connect, if they want to learn more, what's the best way to do that?

Emily: I am pretty findable online. I am at Emily Ladau, L-A-D-A-U, across platforms, mainly Instagram and LinkedIn. And I also have a substack called Words I Wheel By where I dive a little bit deeper into some disability issues. So I am, I'm always happy to engage and up for a conversation and just love being able to chat about this with people who are clearly so equally passionate about this kind of work.

Val: Emily, it has been a pleasure!

Andrew: A total treat.

Emily: Likewise! I am so thrilled you reached out. Yeah. I can't thank you enough.

[THEME MUSIC]

Andrew: So Val, what'd you think?

Val: Oh my gosh. Um, there are several things that stood out to me about Emily, but I think the most significant thing is her grace with others, right? Who are starting this journey, who stumble into language that may be harmful. She exhibits such care with managing the relationship with someone so that she can continue to build allies, right?

It felt like, “Hey, clearly you are a decent person who's trying, and I'm not necessarily trying to lose you in this fight, so how can I get you to the other side of this,” right? “How can I be the bridge for you?”

And, I find that remarkable. I think that we kind of operate in the same way, you know? We recognize the value of allies, coalition building, not throwing people away who might not know all that we know, because we've been studying and talking about these things for a long time. And so I appreciate her willingness and desire to do that.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, that's certainly what I felt when she called me out on “blind spot.” I felt very much called in to, you know, go back to Loretta Ross's episode, like, felt very much called in by that and uh, was a good reminder, right? It's, like, all around us. Ableism, the language we use is all very important and there we can always do better. We can always learn more. We can always find new ways of expressing ourselves and that energy is worth it and it feels even more worth it when you're called in in a loving, caring way like that.

Val: Yeah. And, you know, because we're all gonna make mistakes, throughout our journeys, and not to let mistakes stop us.

And, and you know what she mentioned about, like, a truly inclusive education, (and, and you and I have talked about this endlessly) because we believe in integrated inclusive schools, we see that as an opportunity to learn this stuff while you're young, right? So that it's easier to take action on it when you get older.

Andrew: I mean, I think about that with, with my kids. The facility with which they deal with gender and pronouns that despite my best intentions just does not come nearly as easily to me. They will always have a leg up on that, because they started when they were young! It's like a foreign language. Like, you know, their, their minds are plastic. They can learn it very quickly.

Val: That's right.

Andrew: Creating educational spaces where there is the opportunity to gain that facility around race, around disability, around class. Those things feels like such an opportunity and feels like such a desperate need right now.

Val: Yeah, you're right. My kids are skilled in talking about neurodivergence.

Andrew: Hmm. Yeah.

Val: It feels normal. And I am, I am thankful that they have that, right? And, and again, it's not something that I think our generation necessarily grew up even wanting to talk about.

Andrew: Right.

Val: And so, when you have a situation where you're trying to pretend that someone does not have a learning difference, a disability, you spend all of that energy erasing them, right? Because you don't want them to feel left out when they feel it, because our society isn't set up for them to feel included anyway.

Andrew: Right. And like Emily mentioned, right? Like, even, even she had this inclination to erase part of her own identity to try to fit in. But, but then that, like, erases a part of who she actually is as a person. And so, creating spaces where everybody can show up as their full selves, where everybody's full humanity is recognized, that creates the space for true belonging. And that's the, that's the skill-set that I think, you know, certainly my kids are, are better at than I am.

Val: Yes, your kids are better. And I want to also name that you, like other parents, are more intentional about having the conversation about exposing them to it. Right? So we can't assume that kids are just going to know if we aren't intentional about it. Like, if we're not saying, “Hey, notice this, because this is a barrier for someone in our community.” And I think that is our responsibility as parents. You know, not that we have to have all of the answers, but if we help develop that critical thinking in them, that they do start to notice, like, “Hey, so-and-so is, is burdened by this,” not because they are a burden, but because we haven't thought enough about how to create a world in which they can thrive as well.

Andrew: Right. This is, this is why creating those like truly inclusive integrated spaces is so important because then it gives them, at this age where it is much easier for them to internalize, the opportunity to internalize it, but we still have to create those environments. We have to point out the ways in which, you know, society is not set up to do that. And then we have to encourage them to, to lean into that because it is a lighter lift for them, but it is still work, because they're still receiving all the messages from society about, what it means to be quote, unquote normal. What it means to fit in. It's easier for them, but it is not easy.

Val: Thinking about, you know, as a teacher, some parents wanted me to ignore their child's difference, right? And I'm thinking back to what Emily said around, like, apologizing for who she was or trying to push down parts of her own identity.

And so, there is that baggage as adults that we might place on our young people that, again, we don't intend to, we just, we want them to fit in (you know?), instead of shaking up where they're trying to fit in.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think that like, that, that, that's hard work, right? Like, creating spaces that actually do that are hard work. And I really appreciated Emily naming, you know, her belief in integrated inclusive education, and that the places where that is falling short is not the fault of schools, is not the fault of teachers, but is the system that is not set up to actually support it.

And so, we have the Individuals with Disability Education Act that has never been fully funded. That is, you know, even more under attack right now than it's, than it's ever been. And so, we are asking schools to create inclusive environments without the training, without the staff, without the support, without the resources to actually do that.

And so, certainly, one of the messages that I really took from Emily was the need to be advocating for those sorts of things. The need to be speaking up in favor of not just creating spaces where we are trying to include kids, but also putting the resources and the training and the support behind to do that well. Because we know that when we do that well, everybody benefits.

Val: That's right. And I think before the advocacy, we have to be curious to know, right? So that we can advocate for it, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: If we are unaware that this is an issue for anyone, we're certainly not gonna know to put our voices behind it, our dollars behind it. And so we have to be curious and say, like, “Hey, how is this working for you?” Listen to the voices of those who are most impacted.

Andrew: Always. Yeah. Yeah, it's certainly easy to look around at the state of affairs right now. When it comes to education, when it comes to supporting people with disabilities, when it comes to many things and feel depressed. But I did take a little bit of hope from Emily's reminder that, if we can change one person's mind, if we can shift one person's thinking that that's gonna have a ripple effect. And her commitment to having individual relationships, to staying in relationship with people, to calling people in feels like a really powerful reminder in these times that it feels like things are overwhelming. That every conversation we have, every relationship that we can lean into, that we can start to change one person's mind, is one person who can go out and potentially change another person's mind and another person's mind. And the ripples of that are real.

The reason that we have the IDEA, the reason that we have all of the progress that has been made despite the progress that is still left to be made, but all the progress that has been made on behalf of folks with disabilities is because of those, you know, one-on-one conversations because of changing those minds, the ripples that come from the activism that is out there. And that work is always valuable, even when you're really swimming upstream in a powerful current, it is still worth doing that work.

Val: Yeah. And I wanna circle back to, to Dr. Ross's episode as well. We can do that, without shaming folks who are learning. We can do that without putting ourselves on the line for people who aren't ready to learn, right? So we don't have to compromise who we are, our values to call people in who might not know. And I think that's really important, right? We don't have to be angry all the time, y'all.

Andrew: Right.

Val: We really don't.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, that's what Dr. Ross said, right? Like the, the biggest gift of, of calling in was, you know, letting go of her own anger was not carrying it anymore. And that calling in is really about serving as an example, being a better version of yourself so that other people can want to follow that.

And, uh, that also feels like in dire need right now, given the state of the world.

Val: Well, I wanna thank Emily for exemplifying the words of Dr. Ross, like right there for us. That was fantastic.

Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. So listeners, sign up for a Book Club. Link in the show notes. Those sessions are coming up at the end of January and the beginning of February. Really great conversations. Um, if you enjoyed listening to this interview with Emily, you'll definitely enjoy those conversations.

Val: And if you don't get a chance to get to Book Club and you still enjoy this conversation, please share it and be in dialogue with others in your community. Say, Hey, what'd you think about this? What'd you learn? How can we advocate in our own communities for the change that we wanna see?

Andrew: Yeah! And then send us a voicemail and tell us how those conversations went. What are the themes? What are the takeaways? What are the things that are sticking with you from this conversation? From the book if you read it for Book Club.

speakpipe.com/integratedschools. S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E.com/integratedschools. Or just record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us podcast@integratedschools.org. We want to know what you're thinking about.

Val: We will also take your emailed money, and by that we mean go to integratedschools.org. Donate the big red button on the, on the home screen there. All of your financial support helps make this podcast go, and we are thankful for your support.

Andrew: Absolutely. We are very grateful for all the support we had near the end of the year. And January is not a time where tons of people are asking for money, but it is a time where people are budgeting. And so, if you are able, particularly to do a monthly contribution, we would be very grateful for that.

You can also do that over on Patreon, patreon.com/integratedschools. You'll also get access to our show notes and facilitation questions and happy hours and stuff we'd love to see over there.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Very grateful to Emily Ladau for writing the book, for coming on and talking to us about it. Entering a very uncertain 2026. I am certain that I am grateful to continue to be in conversation with you as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time.