S12E5 – A Big Tent: Parent Voice for Public Education

S12E5 - A Big Tent: Parent Voice for Public Education

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver,

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina,

Andrew: And this is A Big Tent: Parent Voice for Public Education. Val, I think, I think we have a first today.

Dr. Val: Okay.

Andrew: An interview recorded from the Senate building in D.C., which is pretty cool.

Dr. Val: That is pretty cool.

Andrew: Keri Rodrigues, who is the president of the National Parents Union, was able to join us in a brief break between meetings with Senators and House members and came on to talk to us about parent voice.

Dr. Val: That's right. I had not been familiar at all with the organization. And so I, I, I came into this conversation just really curious about her stance and what she thought about, and what she was trying to advocate for, for all students.

Andrew: Yeah. So, yeah, for, for people who don't know, the National Parents Union started in 2020, sort of a collection of organizations that were working to harness parent and caregiver voice. They say they “channel the power of parents and caregivers into powerful policies that improve the lives of children, families, and communities across the United States.”

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: And other listeners may be familiar with National Parents Union. Um, I had been familiar with their work for a while. I will, I will name upfront that, um, they were not an organization I necessarily felt fully aligned with the methods for going about their goals. I think I certainly share the goals of improved lives for children and families and communities across the US, and, um, using education as a tool for that. And certainly, past positions that they've taken, I've not necessarily felt fully aligned with, but it felt like a, a good opportunity to have a conversation with someone who really is in conversation with a lot of parents across the country and who has a lot of influence.

And so, I thought it was worth, uh, you know, bringing, bringing her on and having some of those conversations.

Dr. Val: Yeah, and I think it, it speaks to who we are trying to be, right? Like, if we are truly going to engage in conversations that will help us create the world in which we wanna live -and our children, then that means expanding the tent.

Andrew: Yeah!

Dr. Val: Um, so we get to hear each other more clearly and understand where people are coming from.

Andrew: And I think, you know, in this moment where it does feel like there are some real attacks on the institution of public education, that anybody who is in favor of public education, I feel like we should be banding together to support the institution.

Having those conversations feels important and seems to me at least, like, the, the best way to do that is to get to know somebody. So we spend a good chunk of time getting to know, uh, Ms. Rodrigues and sort of her story and what led her to this work, and then, uh, dig in a bit to the current priorities of the National Parents Union.

Which feel like things that I very much agree with. You know, they're looking at ensuring economic stability. They're looking at developing connected generation - so looking at things like digital literacy, and ethical AI, social media literacy. Confronting climate change, the right to read, these sorts of things feel like things that really could use a lot of support and as big intent as possible of voices supporting those things.

Dr. Val: What you just said it's asking me to reflect on how do I advocate as a parent. So, I'm gonna save my thoughts until after this interview.

Andrew: All right. Let's take a listen to Keri Rodrigues, the President of the National Parent Union, and then,, yeah, we'll unpack what we hear.

[THEME MUSIC]

Keri Rodrigues: My name is Keri Rodrigues. I'm Matthew, Miles and David's mom, and I'm also the president of the National Parents Union. And we're the united modern voice of American families. We have 1800 affiliates in all 50 states, Washington, D.C. and Puerto Rico, and represent about 1.8 million families across the country.

Andrew: Amazing. And how did you find yourself as the co-founder and president of National Parents Union?

Keri Rodrigues: Well, I have been a community organizer my whole life. And before that, I was a girl who liked to organize other girls to go fight. You know? I, I actually come from, um, some direct lived experience around some of the issues and challenges that we are trying to face for kids and families across this country.

And I always say, when I was young, I used to organize girls to go fight, and now I'm an old lady and I, I organize old ladies to go fight. [Andrew chuckles] Um, but I use my power for good now and, uh, not, not to cause uh, bad trouble, but good trouble.

And so I, you know, was working, uh, in politics. I was a community organizer, and I worked for SEIU for a long time. But at the same time, uh, my oldest son, who is now a senior in high school, was diagnosed with, uh, ADHD and autism. And I was thinking, “You know what, this is, this is scary for me as a young single mom, but I teach other people who go and, and advocate!” So, God has given me the, the right kid and has given this kid the right mama because I know how to advocate.

And only then did I find out how little power and agency that parents really have, uh, in education and politics. But when I get mad, I organize, and I, I founded, uh, Massachusetts Parents United about 12 years ago, uh, where we started organizing in my community and then it grew to five communities, and now it's up to 37 communities across Massachusetts and it’s the largest parent advocacy organization there.

And almost seven years ago, uh, we convened in New Orleans and founded the National Parents Union. Organizations like mine, which are these pockets of parent power across the country, came together, a hundred eighty five of them, um, and voted to, to start the National Parents. Union.

And ever since then, we have been off and running.

Andrew: Who poured that into you? Why was your response to organize, to bring people together rather than, I don't know, get down and depressed, get cynical. Why harness power and bring people together to try to change things?

Keri Rodrigues: Well, to be honest with you, this is kind of a legacy that, that has been a part of my family. You know, I grew up at my grandmother's knee, and she was an organizer in democratic politics after immigrating from Madeira. And part, of part of my family comes from Madeira, part is from Venezuela. And she would host el Cafecitos at her house and, and engage people. And so, I just grew up knowing that was normal. And watching mamas and grandmamas come together and when something was happening, they would band together, and they would figure it out. And they would resource share and, and knowledge share.

Like, they didn't formally call it that, but that's just what community did. So, I just assumed that that's how things worked. And so it's really a part of, of my DNA. And, I've never been one who has been able to, to stand by and watch, you know, people face injustice and not say something about it.

And the other piece of that just comes from my own faith. I'm, I'm a Roman Catholic and, you know, am very devout in, in my faith. And to me, I've got really clear marching orders, uh, in terms of what we're supposed to do in this world. And so, that also is a very important part of, of why I do this work.

Andrew: National Parents Union is, is focused on empowering parents. Like you said, you, it, it took getting into the system to realize how disempowered parents often are in education. Why, why parent voice? Like, why is it important? You know, there's real expertise in education in teachers and, you know, building administration.

What's missing if we only focus on experts of teaching and, and running schools and ignore parent voice? What, what gets lost in that?

Keri Rodrigues: Well, listen, there, there are folks in this conversation who are experts on education, but you're missing the expertise of, of the folks who are experts on the actual children.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: You know? And that is the missing piece of this puzzle because we bring a different lens and a different perspective. Because I, I have a lot of respect for educators and their, their training and especially, you know, the level of education they, they achieve. Like, I have a GED from Boston Public Schools. Like that, that's it for me. I'm an expert in organizing and, and heart work, but it's, it's a little bit of a, a different trajectory.

But when we talk about education and wanting to get our kids to the outcomes that we desire for them, the fact of the matter is we, we have a vested interest in your success, but, you know, we also have to deal with the consequences of your lack of success.

So while I appreciate the expertise, I think we're missing some pieces of the puzzle and, and some things that parents and families need to bring to it so that you can fully understand the context of what we're bringing and instead of us fighting each other, uh, working together collaboratively.

Because often, you know, you hear this indictment of parents as if we don't care, or we're not helpful or we're not doing our part. Like, there's always this, this passing of the buck and the blaming of us where, you know, I'm, I'm a person, you know, that is a parent, yes, but I'm also a former student that was underserved in a previous generation. And I'm not that unique. You know?

The idea is like all of a sudden parents are supposed to show up without any of the history and the knowledge of our own personal lived experiences. And the expectation that on top of being the backbone of the American economy, going out there, working in Donald Trump's economy right now, making sure we can feed these kids, keep 'em safe, have them have a place to live. Like, all of those things are really difficult right now.

Then as soon as I'm done, I gotta pick up these kids. I, I have to be a, a literacy tutor. I have to be tracking every piece of their social media and influence. I have to be an expert on mental health support. Like, there is a lot that we throw at parents. So, I, I think that if you want us to be that key piece of the team, you gotta be a friend. You gotta be understanding, and you actually have to also understand the things that are important to us and that we're concerned about as well.

Dr. Val: Have you had any examples of true collaboration and partnership with educators of your children? Or that you've seen in your community than your organizing?

Keri Rodrigues: Yeah, I, I, I do think that especially over the past five years, we have seen the emergence of, instead of having these transactional relationships, much more transformational relationships. Uh, I don't think that we're doing it at scale. I think that oftentimes it is still a fight where we are having to organize and push in.

We’re seeing some areas where we're, we're seeing, you know, superintendents and state chiefs and even on the federal level where, where I'm here in the US Senate, people willing to to hear parents, but we got a lot of work to do as well.

Dr. Val: Right now in, in schools, we do have lots of parent advocacy groups that seem to be advocating for less inclusive, less equitable systems.

And I'm thinking specifically of book banning, anti-SEL -social emotional learning, right? Do you feel like the tactics should be the same for parents regardless of what they're advocating for?

Keri Rodrigues: I gotta be honest, I've been on the front lines of this stuff for, for a real long time, and have actually, uh, debated Moms For Liberty at the, the Reagan Presidential Institute and gone toe to toe and, and counter protested them, you know, in Philadelphia and ran a, a lot of that organizing effort.

The first thing that we need to do is understand the conditions that we created that made it possible for this hate campaign to happen. You know, unfortunately we have a lot of folks in education who view relationships with parents and families as a transaction. And they don't wanna hear from us, we don't have meaningful engagement with them. Uh, it's not a transformational relationship. It's a “box checking” activity. And when parents are concerned about something or have questions about something, we're not willing to hear them out. And in fact, we're willing to dismiss them, ignore them, shut them down.

And, you know, what we really saw was the ability for groups like Parents Defending Education and Moms for Liberty to really rise as a result of the pandemic.

And in that moment, what ended up happening is a lot of disrespect to parents and families. Just shutting them down. Not engaging us in conversations saying, “Tell me what you're concerned about. Why is this so important to you?” Like, let's have a thoughtful, collaborative conversation about how you feel about school reopening. And because of that, and because we weren't given a seat at the table, it really gave space for bad actors to come in and start to say, “See, these systems don't care about you. They're not listening to you. Oh, and you have other concerns about what's being taught in school? Well. See, they won't talk to you. They won't engage with you.”

Because there's kind of an evolution to this stuff. It was school shutdowns, and then it was masking, and then it was vaccines, and then it was book banning. So, from where I sat, what I saw was, you know, these, these actually weren't parent groups that were set up. This is part of a political hate campaign that was taking advantage of parents who were deeply concerned that their kids were not all right. They were filled with pain, and anxiety, and worry, and frustration because they're watching their kids fall apart and they're not being heard.

Now I am happy to report that the Hechinger Report put out a, an article doing an examination about the status of Moms for Liberty. They just hosted, you know, their annual retreat and they couldn't even fill a ballroom anymore. And the people who they did fill it with are not, you know, parents and families who actually have kids in the districts.

So, it's quite clear that this hate campaign is losing steam, as they do! Because campaigns that are fueled by hate, they run outta steam.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: Campaigns and movements that are built on love, it's, it's a very, very different thing. Which is why I am hopeful that, you know, groups like mine in the National Parents Union, NCLD, the Center for Learner Equity, all of these beautiful groups that are doing, you know, work that is based on, like, trying to improve the quality of education for our kids, based on the urgency that parents feel because we deeply love our children, have a much more sustaining capacity.

This was part of a, of a long ranging campaign to gin up, uh, culture war issues that really tugged on the, the fear and anxiety that parents have and the fact that, you know, we just don't engage them in a way that's, that's respectful and people who are ignored are gonna lash out and, and unfortunately do things that are pretty toxic.

Dr. Val: I appreciate the nuance in this conversation. I’m thinking about it, as a parent, as an educator, former teacher works in, um, a couple different educational institutions. As a parent, I felt that I had the most influence and power when my kids went to the school district in which I was Teacher of the Year, right. Like, there was a certain level of respect there that other teachers, administrators paid to my kids because of the status that I had there.

And then when we moved to a new school district, I felt all of that, like, disappear and I was, like, fighting for my kids.

I've had conversations with other educators about this before - we have to continue to be honest with ourselves about what we're doing right and what we could do a lot better. Because we do want true partnerships with our parents.

Keri Rodrigues: And I think we gotta get honest about that.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: I think that's what keeps us back. And it's frustrating for parents and families because they're, listen, there, there are a lot of folks that have invested a lot of time and resources and have done a hell of a job of creating this perception that, like, every teacher is Florence Nightingale. [Val chuckles]

And educators are human beings. You know, they have personality conflicts with people that they don't like, including children. You know?

Dr. Val: Right. Which blows my mind.

Keri Rodrigues: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: You know what makes me so sad about what you just said, and I think what we all have to acknowledge is, you know, I, I work with parents all the time.

I have my own kid’s IEP meetings, but I go every week with parents across the country into their IEP meetings, 'cause it keeps my talent sharp, and I wanna see it from that perspective.

But I'm the nuclear option. And I, you–

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Keri Rodrigues: Listen, if you make me mad, I'm, I'm, gonna put you on blast in the Boston Globe and the New York Times.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: But not every parent has that ability.

Dr. Val: Right. Right, right.

Keri Rodrigues: And it shouldn’t require that. You shouldn't have to call in a nuclear option to make that happen. And you shouldn't have at the school or at the district and be known to be able to get, you know, justice for your kid–

Dr. Val: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: –and make sure they're in a good environment.

Because imagine what it's like for a parent. Like, my children - that's my heart outside my body!

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: You know? And to leave your child with people that you know don’t like them very much… Like honestly, that's what brought me to this work. Because when my Matthew was in kindergarten, and they were putting him in a redirect room that looked like a cinder block cell, 'cause they weren't giving him the supports he needed in his IEP.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: And I was sitting at the end of those IEP tables. And, you know, me with my, my, GED from Boston Public Schools, and all these people who have master's degrees and they're “experts” and they're supposed to tell me what to do. I dunno what to do!

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: Like, I’m trying to be here to make sure my kid gets help.

And, but you know what I, I do have that, that a lot of these folks at the fancy degrees didn't have? I do have really high emotional intelligence. And man, I could read at that table that the, the folks around there just couldn't stand my kid, they were fed up. And it scared the hell outta me.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: Having to leave this precious boy who was six years old with people for six and a half hours a day that I, I wasn't sure if they liked him.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: Oh man,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: Did that ever break my heart and fill me with anxiety, so you bet I'd come in with my dukes up, because I didn't trust them. With my baby! And that's what we asked parents to do all the time. And they, many of them don't have the agency, and the, and the privilege that you and I do to know the inside game.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: Or to be able to make a call, and put pressure on folks. You shouldn't have to do that to make sure that your kid is safe every day.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. You, you talked about, um, trust. What are some ways in which that trust can be built between families and educators?

Keri Rodrigues: I think what's really important is acknowledging the perspective and the lens of parents. You know, I think we have this idea of who we think parents are and what they care about. I can't tell you how many times I've been a fly on the wall in some of these rooms listening to people say, like “These parents! They don't show up, they don't follow through, they don't, they don't engage.”

And a lot of the time it's because we have this preconceived notion about what engagement's supposed to look like. And often, that is through a lens of White supremacy. It is through a lens of all of these other things, not understanding, like, what modern American families look like.

You know, I don’t know any family right now that doesn't, like, if you are lucky enough to have two parents in the house, they both have to work and they probably both have to work until about six o'clock. And then, they’ve got all this other stuff happening. Like, I'm sitting at home every day waiting for you to call me and telling me, giving me my assignment about what you want me to do with my child every night. Like,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: Life is life-ing out here!

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: I have met thousands of parents, every corner of this country, I have yet to come across a mother or a father who does not love and care about their child.

Dr. Val: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: I just don't know 'em.

Dr. Val: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: I've never met 'em.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: Half the time they don't even know what they should be doing because they've never experienced it themselves. And so, when you're not telling us what we need to know, you're not giving us good information. You're not making it actionable and saying how we can help. Like, we're not educators. You guys are the educators. We're willing to help you, but you gotta help and, and tell us what you need us to do. But before we can get to that, you gotta prove to me that you love my kid.

Dr. Val: Mmm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: You gotta show me that you care about my kid, 'cause if you don't, all bets are off 'cause I don't trust you.

Andrew: Let's talk about the current work of National Parents Union. You are currently talking to us from the Senate, in between meetings with senators. Um, I guess you're going to talk to Hakeem Jeffries in the House as well, but, what are you all focusing on now, kind of in this crisis of public education?

Particularly in this moment with the current administration defunding the Department of Education, it feels like the stakes are quite high. What all are you focusing on right now?

Keri Rodrigues: Well, I, what I'm talking about is something that I, I wanna encourage you and everybody who's listening to start caring about, and, I, listen, I care very deeply about education, but what is happening right now is so much bigger than education.

And so, what we are working on right now is a project that we call “the attack on American childhood.” Because right now, we are not giving kids the America that they deserve. And it is an attack from every single angle. And the idea that we can talk about education in a vacuum when children and families are under attack from literally every other angle.

One of the things I am saying directly to senators today, it, it is trying to paint the picture of what childhood looks like right now. And I can do that by just pointing to the kids in my own household.

Like I, I have one child who called me up about three weeks ago and asked me, “Mama, can I bring my passport with me?” Um, because, you know, he's had several friends who, and their families who have been picked up or have had to self-report because of ICE.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: And they are in our neighborhoods, and they are in front of schools, and they are yanking parents from pickup and drop-off lines. And I have big, beautiful Brown boys. And they are literally the picture of who ICE would pick up. And you know, in my, in my mama heart, of course, you know he is 14,m and I'm like, I can't give you your passport. It's gonna be covered with ketchup. You're gonna lose it! [Andrew laughs]

Andrew: Right!

Keri Rodrigues: But the other half of me is like, well, You know. Maybe! ‘Cause ;et me tell you something. If something happens to that child where he is snatched up in a van and taken to an ICE facility, like the one that is in the next town over from me. Or he is shipped up to Maine to what is effectively a concentration camp that we are running in Maine before we ship 'em off to Virginia or Louisiana. I, I, as a mama, I, I, you're gonna see me on the news.

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: It's over. It's done. It's, it's done! Correct!

Andrew: Yep.

Keri Rodrigues: It’s “on site,” as the kids say.

Dr. Val: Correct.

[Val laughs]

Keri Rodrigues: Okay.

Dr. Val: Clock it. Clock it.

Keri Rodrigues: Because I'm the one. I'm, I'm here for it.

Dr. Val: The one and the two.

[Laughter]

Keri Rodrigues: Yes. I may be five foot one on the outside, I’m eight feet tall on the inside.

[Laughter]

Andrew: Yep.

Keri Rodrigues: But, at the same time, you know, my youngest baby who just turned 13 yesterday, he is calling me from basketball practice and walking out and he said, “Mommy, I saw this video. Did they kill Charlie Kirk and what happened? And there's blood everywhere. Is it AI?” Like. Like, I can't believe. And, like literally in the palm of his hand, he can't avoid the algorithm that's coming after him.

Andrew: Yep.

Keri Rodrigues: And this is a kid who's been diagnosed with anxiety. I lost my first husband to cancer and this is how grief kind of shows up for him, is in an anxiety issue.

And that little boy was up till two o'clock in the morning having panic attacks, 'cause every time he would close his eyes, he would see that video. And on the school bus, they're talking about it.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: And, my current husband who is a teacher, has kids who are flooding, flooding his science classroom saying, “Mr. L, like, did you see this video? And I can't believe this happened!” And, and wanting to talk about it. And he's paralyzed by fear, because if you're a teacher and you're trying to help kids through a very traumatic event that they witnessed through no fault of their own because of what's happening on social media, they're terrified, because in my state, there were tons of teachers who got suspended and fired for having, even mentioning the words “Charlie Kirk.”

Like, we are doing all of these things and these conditions for our kids. So before we can even talk about the literacy crisis we have in this country, before we can talk about numeracy, before we can talk about, you know, how do we help teachers? Like, we can't even get to that because our kids are at risk at showing up hungry. They're worried about getting snatched off the streets. They are worried about, what's coming after them, and algorithm and, and social media companies that have no, no responsibility. Because–

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: –they’re fighting our ability to regulate them.

Like, what we're giving to kids right now is is a life of hell and, and we are not giving them what we have promised them.

And then to add insult to injury, we are doing things like the RIFs, the Reduction in Force, where we are gutting the US Department of Education, all the special education protections.

The reason we founded the US Department of Education, because parents sued. Because our kids were excluded from classrooms, because we didn't have federal oversight over IDEA. The Office of School Safety and Support. The number one concern of American families is around student safety and mental health.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: We have cut the Office of Gun Violence. The people who track and, and hopefully disrupt potential school shootings. Gone. The fact that we have gutted all of the programs and the funding and the technical expertise that help our kids prevent suicide of teenagers. It's gone. Then we're expecting kids to, like, show up in classrooms and do well on NAEP?

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: Like, oh my God!

Andrew: Yeah, I, I appreciate that and that, that's why I wanted to have you on now. I mean, it does feel like we're in, in a state of crisis. There is so much division, there's so much argument. There's so many places of disagreement that are easy to focus on.

And I think, you know, full transparency, I probably was, was not particularly well aligned with National Parents Union three or four or five years ago. I mean, my own leanings, around kind of public education and the ways to fix it. I think we probably share similar goals and my own, you know, personal views about how we get there maybe are not quite aligned.

And I feel like what I've seen from National Parents Union recently is this real focus on, on the holistic well-being of children, on these much broader issues. And it feels like in this moment where public education is really under attack, in this moment where the institution of public education, actually, I think many of us, although not nearly enough of us, believe is, you know, foundational to having a functional democracy, that we need all the people who believe in that to come together and to argue on behalf of, you know, the public education.

If we can get to a place where kids can show up, feeling safe, feeling secure, fed, ready to learn, we can then have more nuanced conversations about what's the best approach now to make sure that kids are getting the education they need. But I feel like in this moment we need everybody to show up in, in support of public education.

Keri Rodrigues: Well, and the thing is, is that we, we should be struggling with those ideas. Just because we don't see eye to eye and we have different perspectives. We should be able to show up in a conversation and, and have that, that struggle, and that tension, and that back and forth. Because I think it's in the beautiful, messy middle that we actually find the solutions.

Andrew: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: Like, I'm also not convinced that everything I think is right. Like I'm not here to tell you that, like, “Oh, I know everything and everything that I believe in my beautiful little brain here is, is how the, the world should be.”

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: These are, these are reflections based on what I am seeing and what my concerns are.

I wanna struggle with other people around these ideas and hear from you because I, I am very willing to, to have my mind changed. And I wanna, I want us to move, but we, we lose that when we can't even show up in a conversation with each other.

And I think now, like it is just so incredibly important that those of us that view public education as a common good, we have to stand shoulder to shoulder and fight for it.

I'm one that has always supported public school options and different, different views and, and forms of education because I want all of them. Like, I want whatever works for kids. I'm, I'm very outcomes-driven. Like, give me whatever zany idea, and I, if it works for kids, as long as it provides meaningful, measurable results, like, I'm there.

I think there should be accountability and assessment and all of those things so that we can quantify that the things we're investing in actually work. But I also am not so convinced that the way we assess kids, or what we're measuring are the right things. And I want, I wanna get into those things. But if we don't talk to each other and we act as if we're, we're mortal enemies, like, I, I actually believe that, that people who don't always agree with every idea that comes outta my brain, like I don't think that they hate kids. I don’t think–

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: –that they’re trying to destroy public education. I think we, we gotta have, like, tell me what you know! Tell me what I don’t know. So that we can actually get to what we're trying to do, which is get to a better outcome for kids.

Andrew: Right. And if the institution of public education gets dismantled, then, then our conversations are useless, right? Like, we can sit over on, in, in the side and argue about, you know, the, the values of a market based approach to school improvement or not. And if there is no public education system, we're talking to ourselves because, then, you know, our kids don't even have access to schools in which to have those conversations.

Keri Rodrigues: And this is one of the, the things that we argued about in front of the Supreme Court, just about six months ago when we were arguing to make sure that, uh, charter schools were not allowed to enter into the religious space.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: We’re not gonna have religious charter schools. Like this is literally the argument that we were making is that, you know, public schooling and public education is foundational to our democracy.

Our founding fathers were really clear about why it was a critical good just to, to have informed citizenry. I mean, we have a history to look at in terms of what the, the intentions of why we did this in the first place actually was.

So I think if we start from that place of saying, “Okay, we all love public education. Let's talk about what it should look like in 2025,” and how we do it in ways that works for kids. And how do we measure? Like, let's talk about those different avenues and ideas. But, the idea that we don't need public education or that we're going to, like, I don't know, hand parents and families bags of magic beans and expect them to kind of figure it out on their own.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: When a lot of folks don't have choices worth choosing? It's just, it's, it's wildly dangerous and unrealistic.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I'm thinking about just the importance of the opportunities for dialogue, and how that seems to be just challenging right now. What is your advice about bringing just multiple groups together to engage in some of this nuanced conversation?

Because right now it feels like folks aren't even willing to sit together, let alone listen to one another.

Keri Rodrigues: Well, to be honest with you, I have actually been seeking the advice of others who have been in very similar circumstances in other countries. Other mothers who have led movements in India, in Columbia, in Serbia, uh, who have been in very precarious situations with their democracies and trying to figure out, like, how do we get this done and center children and families and the overall well-being of the people that we are here to protect in the decisions that we make moving forward.

Andrew: Hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: And, you know, there, there is real cause for hope.

We have the longest running poll of American families at the National Parents Union. Because it's one thing for me to sit here and say, this is what I think. I think it's really important, this is actually one of the lessons we learned from folks like Moms for Liberty and Parents Defending Education where they say they speak for parents, and they don't.

This is why we started doing this research, why we started doing this, this polling so we could say, Hey, hold on a second. Absolutely not. You represent maybe eight to 11% of American families, but the vast majority of us don't wanna teach hate and aren't behind that ideology.

But we're asking folks what, what are the priorities? Like, we have to make progress for kids under any and all conditions, including political conditions. And there are things that, that we collectively could be doing. There are bipartisan points of agreement around things that are really important that we should be doing in this moment, that are apple pie and ice cream. Things like addressing the literacy crisis in this country. And what we are proposing is a literacy moonshot where we wanna get kids to 80% proficiency by 2035. Like, we think it's an all hands on deck moment. We need big money, we need big ideas. Uh, we need teacher support.

Like, one of the things that we learned is about professional development. Everybody's talking about the science of reading, but it's a science! So we've gotta actually make sure we support teachers so that we have implementation and ongoing observation and all the things that we need to know to, to, to get kids to where they need to be.

Like, if we all collectively viewed that as being, you know, this is, this is what we're gonna focus on, 89% of American families support that. It is across the board.

Andrew: Right.

Keri Rodrigues: So, what I'm here, part, part of my job here is going and talking to Republicans like Bill Cassidy and saying, “Hey, you're a ‘dyslexia dad.’ Literacy is really important to you. It's really important to us too. So, instead of us fighting because you think I'm a Democrat and I think we're a Republican, why don't we come together as, you know, ‘special-ed mom,’ ‘dyslexia dad,’ with a big problem that we're gonna fix together?”

Another issue. And it comes up in polling again, and again, and again, is that we think that teachers need to be paid well. And so we are calling for an $80,000 minimum salary for every teacher in America. And we think that this–

Dr. Val: Woo!

Keri Rodrigues: –is good for a whole host of reasons. Like,

Dr. Val: A whole host of reasons.

Andrew: Cue the applause.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: So, but, I know, it sounds like a really radical idea! And people are like, “$80,000! Where are you gonna get all this money from? Oh my God!” Well, actually. For half the cost of what we just handed to Argentina, 20 billion dollars. We could get this done.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: And we could get the literacy project done. For literally what we decided to give to Argentina on a random Tuesday afternoon. So don't tell me it’s too expensive.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: And 86% of American families support that. And that is something that is bipartisan, it cuts across any geography in the United States, and something that we can get done because Republicans wanna do it, and Democrats wanna do it.

So, we've got some low hanging fruit that we, we can actually make some progress for kids here, if we can all just, like, take a breath.

Andrew: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: Remember that we've promised our children an America that is worth fighting for and, and being proud of. And do the, the work of grownups, of, kind of, getting over ourselves a little bit, and getting back to work.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: Bill Cassidy and I, when we first started out, President Biden had appointed me to the National Parent and Family Engagement Council. And this was during the Moms for Liberty. They were really upset that they weren't on it and we were on it. So he and Tim Scott, there was a group of, like, five senators that sent a letter to the President of the United States accusing me of not being a real parent, being a “dog mom,” not having human children.

So I swore, I swore up and down that I would never, I would burn that office down before I would work with that man. And now, you know, we're homies.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Keri Rodrigues: Because we were able to find common ground. And listen, I love to fight and I, I can, I am “Petty Betty” over here. I can hold a grudge forever. [Andrew chuckles] Forever! And we were able to, to find some common ground around this stuff.

And he's passed two senate resolutions where we've had bipartisan support. Talking about the literacy crisis and saying that we've gotta invest in programs and strategies and put real money behind it.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Keri Rodrigues: So, it is possible even with folks you wanna throw down with to, to find that common ground. For sure.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I like “Petty LaBelle.”

[Laughter]

Keri Rodrigues: Girl. Girl.

Andrew: What can parents do now? Like, where should people who care about public education, who care about democracy, who are concerned about the state of affairs right now, where's the best place to channel our energy in this current moment?

Keri Rodrigues: Uh, I, I know it's gonna sound silly, but it's picking up the phone and getting to your email and getting in the ear of, of Congress and your Senator. They really do listen to their constituents.

And, I love being in the Senate. I'm starting to learn my way around here a little bit. But, I need help! I need more mamas to roll up with me, to tell their stories and half the time they do it better than I ever could. So, if there's an opportunity where you can invest a couple days, get involved with the National Parent Union. We're gonna bring you down here so you can go and have that direct conversation. Because let me tell you something, I have seen literal US senators chasing some of our parents down the hallway 'cause they couldn't believe that, you know, someone we had flown in from Alaska, from Wisconsin, from Nevada, from Florida, was actually here in the building because these are community leaders.

And they were like, “Oh, Ms. Johnson's here!” I got like, “Oh, no, no, you don't need to talk to a staffer, honey, I'll talk to you.” Because these are, these are folks that are so well respected. So when you show up in this building, they’re gonna wanna talk to you, 'cause hearing from their constituents is so important.

So don't feel powerless. You are powerful and you, you can, you can put these folks on notice by showing up in this building.

Andrew: Beautiful.

Dr. Val: That was beautiful.

Andrew: Thank you for your time, keep up the good work.

Keri Rodrigues: Good!

Andrew: Thank you so much.

[THEME MUSIC]

Andrew: So Val, what'd you think?

Dr. Val: So, I feel like I'm holding multiple identities in this conversation. I think I started probably listening as an educator.

Andrew: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Val: Wanting to hear what a parent organization really felt was important to them.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And, you know, throughout the conversation, I would switch between educator and parent. And one thing that I found myself wondering is - what are my own expectations of the power of my voice as a parent? Like, what do I expect?

And, I think there are a couple things that come to mind. I expect to be respected. I expect to not seem like a burden. I expect to receive open communication. I expect to receive some type of work home, you know, so I know that they are progressing along the way. I expect to be welcomed at the school, to feel like I belong there. I expect a smile and friendly disposition when I'm there.

Um, these are some of the things that I expect. And, you know, it bothers me that some parents don't feel like that when they are, are entering a school building.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Um, 'cause I don't think that is common, whether that's because of a racial identity, a learning difference, a language difference.Right? I know every parent doesn't feel that way.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: When they enter a school building.

And I don't know that there has been a place, truly, where educators and parents, just as a whole, that we've been socialized about what those expectations a parent can have.

Andrew: The system's not set up to, to create that or, or demand that, or hold school leaders accountable for that piece, I think.

Dr. Val: No! I think a really strong school leaders will do that with parents. But, I wanna hear about what your expectations are for parent voice.

Andrew: Yeah, I share all of those expectations that you have and also I think, like, recognize the ways that I get that much more easily, both being White and being a father. And, I recognize that, yeah, that is definitely not a universal experience.

I, I do think there is real value in parent voice and, and in parents being able to contribute. Like, like, I don't think we get to an education that is serving all kids unless there is some input from the people who know their kids the most closely.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And we've seen that be weaponized. And I think theres a real tension that, um, I don't know that we have great examples for, for how to, how to navigate.

Dr. Val: Yeah. The second thing that came up for me was, like, how do I advocate as a parent? And it typically is in isolation, because part of us as outsiders is we don't know how the other kids are being treated in class. All we have is the testimony of our students. But we don't actually know.

And I think that's where, as a, as an educator, I want parents to understand as well. Like, you absolutely are your kids number one advocate. You should absolutely do that. And… your kid's not the only one in my class. Right? So, so the accommodations that I am making, I am trying to make so that every kid has the best situation.

I'm going to teach anti-racism because I don't want any students in class to be a victim of racist ideas, right? That's what I feel like I have to do in order to hold space for everyone in that class. And I don't know that that is always considered when parents advocate for their child.

Andrew: I mean, that's one of the tensions more broadly in, in the country, you know, is like–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –how do we balance out comfort and how do we come together to agree on what things are important. And all those things is another place where schools provide an opportunity at least to have like a little mini version of it if we can do it well, you know?

And so, I think there is, there is real power in organizing parents to come together and, and advocate for things that they know are good for their kids. And there's real danger when those advocacy efforts are focused on a small, narrow subset of students. Or are focused on, you know, protecting students at the cost of other students or treating discomfort as something to be avoided at all costs. It's a hard line to walk, I think.

Dr. Val: I feel like teaching anti-racism - specifically as one example -felt necessary because the conversations weren't always happening at home, right? Because I am the only, or their first Black teacher. Because they might say something that they didn't realize was potentially biased, or harmful, or prejudiced. And so it felt like I can, I can do my part to help them be better humans! [Val chuckles]

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Right? I

Andrew: Yeah. And I think that that's the starting point for so many of these conversations. And then the question is like, can you as a, as a teacher do that couched in love? Can you do that couched in the same respect that you expect as a parent showing up in the building for all the kids?

And I think when you do that, like, everybody comes out stronger. You know, again, like the school is a great place to have these conversations. We've got kids who are different from each other, who are all in the same space. And if we can create a space where you can have a conversation like, “Hey, this idea that you just presented here is problematic in some way.Not because you're problematic, not because I'm mad at you, not because you should have known better, but because here's this opportunity to learn.” The stakes are much lower than when you have that conversation in your workplace. The stakes are much lower than when you have that conversation, you know, in, in your city council.

And so, there's this opportunity to do that if, if we are coming from this place of, of love. You know, I think one thing that I really appreciated about Ms. Rodrigues is, she identified these real fears that parents have.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: These real pain points that parents have. This idea of your heart walking around outside of your body, of,

Dr. Val: Yeah. That’s beautiful.

Andrew: You know, putting your, your little baby in a place where, you know, the teachers don't like them is terrifying to you. And there's a way that that real, legitimate fear can be weaponized.

And we can say, “Here's the easy solution, which is you get to choose everything that your kid ever learns.” And, and that actually doesn't set us up to live in a society together. Right? Like, that's not actually the way we have a functioning democracy.

And so, when we can create schools that can hold those spaces, when we have teachers who are empowered to hold those spaces, and to do it in a thoughtful way, then everybody comes out ahead. And that's not like taking away something from some kids and giving it to others, that's rather creating an environment that actually benefits every kid.

Dr. Val: Yeah. You mentioned functioning democracy. [Val chuckles] And the need to practice these skills to be a functioning democracy as early and as often as possible.

And I think something that is required not only for that, but I think what I heard in this conversation as well, is trust. And I think there is a lack of trust, obviously between various factions.

And so, I'm wondering like, when have you felt like, have you walked into your relationships with teacher, like, the relationship you have with your kids' teachers from a place of trust? Did they have to earn that trust?

Andrew: Hmm. That's a good question. I mean, I, I think I, I start from a place of trusting teachers. My, like, baseline is you, you're a teacher, not because you want to get rich, but because you care about educating kids. And my kid is one of the kids who's gonna get educated. And part of that is my own experience, again, like as a White man in an education space, like, that usually turns out to be true. You know, like, the teachers are usually invested in teaching my White kids. And so, I think it probably is a little easier for me to start from a place of trust.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Because the system is designed for my kids and is designed for me, to have a voice and to be able to trust.

What about you?

Dr. Val: I think, um, as an educator, I, I always wanted to have, like, open communication. 'Cause I felt like if, if I can share things in advance, then you worry less about what's happening. You just have to ask a fewer questions because it's all public. I don't have anything to hide. You know, you can come in and watch and volunteer.

I prefer you volunteer!

Andrew: Right! [chuckles]

Dr. Val: You don't have to sit there and watch! And so, I think that helped my parents feel, um, just feel more confident and trust me more. And then whenever you have your kids come home and say awesome things about their teacher, then you know you're on the right track.

Right?As a parent, I, I default on trust. And though I will say if I see you got some, some room for growth, pedagogically, I know what I have to do at home.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And that feels okay and that feels like my responsibility.

Me, like, forcing a teacher to do what I think they should do, I don't think it's just a fruitful way to do it. Right? And so, if I don't trust a teacher every day we talk about what you do in a class, and every day I'm refuting anything that sounds ridiculous and is a lie. And so then the lesson becomes how do you navigate that type of human in your life moving forward because you will meet those humans all the time.

Andrew: Not, not just in school, but like for the rest of your life.

Dr. Val: Correct–for the rest of your life!

Andrew: is worth developing in your kids is like a critical thinking and not a blind trust in authority. A respect for authority, but not a blind trust in authority. And I think that's the other piece that gets a little easier as your kids get older and have multiple teachers is like, oh yeah, yep, your science teacher this year. I'm not sure that I'm like fully on board with them. You're still gonna go, you're still gonna do your work, you’re still gonna learn the science.

Dr. Val: Right. You're still gonna be respectful.

Andrew: and we're gonna talk about some of those outside things and, and make sure that you're not only getting those messages.

Dr. Val: Correct. And I think, I think that is like the position that I have assumed, but it just seems like natural because I don't think I ever expected back to the, the expectations, I never expected, and this might be my positionality as a Black woman, to be able to walk into an institution and say, “Hey, I don't really like what you're doing, and so I'm gonna need you to change that and that and that and that and that and that. And if you don't, I'm gonna burn it all down.”

So I think there's a lot of value in teaching your kids how to navigate those teachers that aren't the most magnificent.

Andrew: Yeah. And I think the, the, like the flip side of that, like you don't, you don't walk in expecting that the school is going to cater to your every, every whim, is also that you don't walk in expecting that any school you're just gonna like hand your kids off and they are gonna take care of everything for you.

You know, that like, we can hand our kids off eight hours a day and they will learn everything that they need to know about the world.

This is another piece that I really appreciate about National Parents Union's current, policy focus is like the, the rest of the world impacts schools all the time. And like, so often education conversations are held in a silo as if the eight hours a day that the kids are in school are the only things that exist for, for our kids. And we know that the outside world has such a big impact.

And so this idea that we are not giving our kids the America that we promised them, is not just because some particular thing is not happening in a school building, but is because there are these broader societal forces that are, you know, working against that from ICE raids, to poverty, to social media, to AI, to the algorithm. Like all those things are impacting our kids across the board.

And so I, you know, appreciate their kind of focus on these big picture wellbeing issues, that if we don't get right, it's very hard to imagine a school being able to be successful.

Dr. Val: So you mentioned like this urgency that you feel when your kids are little. Right. And I'm recognizing that that sense of urgency from when they were little and I felt like super impressionable. Right? Especially with like the authority figure of their teacher.

And it is true, as they have gotten older, I'm like, all right, you got this. You know, I've taught you to make good decisions and you are actually demonstrating that. And so maybe I can worry a little bit less, you know?

I think the same fears will continue to happen as a parent. They just kind of shift, you know?

Andrew: They look, they look a little different. Yeah. But it's, it's really interesting 'cause I, I don't think I'd thought of it that way.Like we often think of like the stakes getting higher, the older the kids get. Like okay, fine, like elementary school, but like, once they get to middle school now, like the academics start to really matter more. And the, like, some of that is true, but I do think there's a lot of things that kind of temper that fear as your kids get older.

One is like, they don't, they don't just have one teacher. And you know, they don't have one teacher in elementary school either. It's not, I mean,

Dr. Val: No. like. they've never had one teacher.

Andrew: Right. Like each year they've got a different teacher and like, yeah, one year is not so great.Okay. That's not the end of the world. Like they're gonna be okay.

But like they get into middle school and then they get into high school and they've got a bunch of different teachers and it's like, yeah, all right so like for 46 minutes a day you've got this one mediocre teacher. That's not really the end of the world. I would rather they be better, but like. …

Dr. Val: We can make it.

Andrew: they're gonna be fine, you know? And they get their own sense of agency much more. And so you start to trust more and more that they're able to differentiate between a good teacher and a bad teacher in a way that a first grader, you know, you're not, you're not telling your first grader, like your teacher is a mediocre teacher.

Um, because they've gotta go spend all day every day with them. And I do think . . .

Dr. Val: Mom says you're mediocre.

[Laughter]

Andrew: My mommy, right?

But yeah, there's like a natural, fear, particularly like, you know, your first kid, your stakes feel lower with your second kid 'cause you're like, oh, like as it turns out,

Dr. Val: You bounce!

[laughter]

Andrew: You guys are far more resilient than I thought. Kids are, kids are designed to deal with first time parents as it turns out.

And like all these things that I thought mattered actually probably don't actually make that make that much difference. [chuckles] As much difference as I thought they did in the end. And yeah.

Dr. Val: Oh yeah. Yeah,

Andrew: That is interesting.

Dr. Val: That is interesting

My only other note is, and be honest, do you think we have a bipartisan path to the future that we want?

[pause]

Andrew: That's, that's tough because I think like, one answer is like nihilistic, and the other answer is naive.

Dr. Val: Hmm. Hmm.

Andrew: I do, I do think there's like truth to the overwhelming support for teachers and the overwhelming support for the importance of teaching our kids to read.

I appreciate these big policy priorities that NPU has right now, which is a moonshot around literacy. Because, I feel pretty convinced that if all of our third graders could read the way that we want them to read that, that would make a huge difference for our education system. And so like investing meaningfully in that feels like it is, it is worthwhile.

And a, you know, starting salary of $80,000 for every teacher in the country. Like, for the cost of half of what we sent to Argentina, like I am fully on board for both of those policy priorities. And that does feel like something that, that certainly has bipartisan support, uh, you know, across the country . And, you know, if National Parents Union can gather enough bipartisan support from our representatives to make that happen, I think that would be a real win.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I'm like you, like I, if I don't believe that there is a bipartisan path, then what am I even doing? And I think what keeps me connected to the possibility is that I do understand the fear associated with leaving your kid in a, in a place that you are worried that they won't get the best that they can possibly get. Like I totally understand that and I want my kids to read. Right? Like you said, literacy is something we can all get our minds around.

There's never in the history of education has ever been a time where there wasn't a debate around the purposes and practices that make the most sense for the most people. Some would argue that it is to be a place where we teach democracy. You know, and some would argue it's a place where we teach people to get jobs.

And I, I'm greedy. I want both. Right. I want…

Andrew: I don’t think we have to choose, I think actually if we do the democracy piece right, we actually have better jobs to offer to everyone.

Dr. Val: Correct. That sounds great. That sounds great. You know? Yeah. I want you to be a good citizen and I want you to be able to feed yourself so I can stop, you know?

[laughter]

I don't think we'll stop the debates. I think there's things that we can all agree around, and I will tell you, it goes back to our title, that we have to have a tent big enough for all of these ideas to fit, without feeling like we have to squish any of them out because they are not our ideas.

Andrew: Or, or, or that we have to squish ourselves in ways that we, we lose sight of the things that are actually important to us, or the values that we actually hold. You know, I think the tent can be big enough for us to be our full selves and for other people to be inside the tent as their full selves and where are the things that we agree on. And that's why, you know, I appreciated Ms. Rodrigues coming on and, and, you know, sort of sharing the work of NPU, Be because I think there is real value in, in that big tent, in having everybody who is, you know, fighting on behalf of public education, on behalf of teachers, on behalf of these foundational pillars of democracy being unified in those things that we do agree on right now because the attacks are so real.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I'm really glad we had the conversation. Yeah,

Andrew: Yeah, me too. Listeners would love to hear what you think. Where do you fit in the big tent? Do you feel like you belong in it or not? Send us a voice memo. speakpipe.com/integratedschools, S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E.com/integratedschools. We would love to hear what you think.

Dr. Val: Also, if you wanna continue to support our work, we would really appreciate that. If you go to integratedschools.org, you can see a big red donate button, please click that button. Sign up for, you know, a donation. It could be one time, it can be ongoing. It's going to a good place.

Andrew: Absolutely those recurring donations are how we keep this whole organization floating. So we are grateful for those. You can also join our Patreon, patreon.com/integratedschools. We've got another happy hour coming up soon. We've got transcripts, we've got facilitation questions, we've got, uh, great stuff for you there over on Patreon. We'd be grateful for that support as well.

Dr. Val: Also, please, please, please, I think this conversation was so rich because we had so many different ideas going, and we want you to continue to share and, and engage in other ideas that you might not be able to get in your bubble. So share it out. Talk to people and interrogate your own thinking. What are your expectations for parent voice? How do you advocate as a parent? How do you build trust? I think these are all really important ongoing conversations that you can also engage with with educators who teach your children.

Andrew: Absolutely. Well, uh, really grateful to Ms. Rodrigues for coming on. Grateful as always to you, Val, for being in conversation with me as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.

[theme music]