S11E8 – Gratitude and Validation: One Family’s Journey Through Integrated Schools

S11E8- Gratitude and Validation: One Family's Journey Through Integrated Schools

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Gratitude and Validation: One Family's Journey through Integrated Schools. Val, we are back! It is 2025.

Dr. Val: It's gonna be a big year and there's gonna be lots of like, decisions that we get to make as a community about how we wanna stick together.

Andrew: Yes. And I think that idea of sticking together is so important, because there will be lots of things that happen over the course of this year and maybe the next couple of years that…try to drive us apart. And I think that finding ways to be in community, finding ways to stick together, is gonna be really important.

Dr. Val: And that's my preference, right? My preference is that we do all of this work together. And so, I trust that you and I will certainly find ways, and we wanna encourage our, our listeners to do the same.

Andrew: Absolutely. And so we thought as a way to kick off this season, the podcast, what better way than to elevate a voice of somebody who has been a part of the community for a long time. Listeners may remember Susan from Lancaster sent us a voice memo that we played on the last episode of Season 10 and let's take a listen to what she had to say.

Susan from Lancaster: Hi, this is Susan calling from Lancaster, PA, and I just wanted to let you know that our children are now older and in high school. I had a really amazing moment the other day where my son randomly said “Thank you guys so much for sending me to the school district because I wouldn't want to go to any other school in this county.” He's on a sports team and he goes to schools all over the county and sometimes beyond, and he can't stop commenting about, you know, how White the schools are and how awful he feels like it would be to go to those schools!

And, it's just interesting now that our kids are getting older and they have thoughts and opinions about our decisions that we made for them. And then thanking us for the, the decision! Like, it really was such a validation.

He's gone to the school district, which is still, after all these years, only 11% white. And I think that parents who are going through that decision, it might be interesting for them to hear from kids themselves now whose parents made that decision, and how much it's impacted them.

Andrew: So we also thought it would be interesting to hear from Susan and her son, Elias, and they were willing to come on and share with us. Susan is sort of the, the quintessential person who connects with Integrated Schools. Reached out, wanted to get in touch, joined a book club, I think. Then eventually decided she wanted to start a chapter in Lancaster to organize other parents who are having these conversations. She wrote a blog post for our website. And now, here she is being featured on a podcast episode.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I think her story speaks to how Susan acted on the desire to find community in this space. Right? It wasn't just about waiting for it to happen. Like, she actively sought it and actively took the next steps to make sure that she was invested in her community and that she could create this sense of community for others.

And so, don't wait around folks. It's on you.

Andrew: That’s right. We need community now more than ever. Local community organizing, connecting locally is gonna be such a big part, I think, of the next couple of years. And so, I think Susan provides a great example of how you can do that! And if you are wondering where to start on that journey of finding community, of getting closer, connected to Integrated Schools as an organization, we have a free guide. There'll be a link in the show notes. “Helping Your Children Thrive Without Perpetuating School Segregation: A Starting Guide for Socially Conscious Parents.” We will send you a list of free resources, a link to communities, to ways to get connected to us. So if you're wondering how to get started, get connected the way that Susan did, that's a great place to start.

Dr. Val: Yeah. But, as much as I love Susan, that Elias!

Andrew: Oh man. I'm so excited for listeners to get to know Elias, her son.

Dr. Val: I am too.

Andrew: 15 years old. He's a sophomore. He's gone to, integrating schools basically since kindergarten. And has just such a, a great perspective on it. Has clearly thought deeply about it. They've had lots of conversations and, yeah, I think listeners are gonna really enjoy getting to hear from him.

Dr. Val: Yeah, we're so excited for this episode. We're so excited that you're joining us this year. Thank you in advance for all that you do and we encourage you to keep doing that work out in your communities. And without further ado, Susan and Elias.

Andrew: All right.

[THEME MUSIC]

Elias: My name is Elias. I'm a White student at a predominantly Black and Latinx school. And, I'm a sophomore.

Susan: My name is Susan and I am a White mom. We live in a town called Lancaster in central Pennsylvania, about an hour and a half west of Philadelphia.

Dr. Val: Awesome

Andrew: Susan, when did you come across Integrated Schools? How did you find the organization and why were you looking for us?

Susan: I will never forget, we were going somewhere and I had picked up the New York Times and I was looking at the article in the New York Times magazine.

It was Nikole Hannah-Jones. Um, and the title of the article was “Choosing a School for my Daughter in a Segregated City.” I think that was the title of it. And I was so wrapt with the article. I, like, took the article with us in the car and it was just a really, like, life changing moment for me.

And I remember thinking, like, all the things she was talking about in that article, those were things I was thinking about.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Susan: I had never heard anybody articulate them.

At that time Elias was five and we were going through that exact process. So as she was kind of explaining the process of choosing a school in an environment like that, we had been doing a similar thing as White parents. You know, in this predominantly Black and Latinx school district. And it was just a moment where it felt like such a relief to see this written on paper.

Andrew: Hmm.

Susan: And have somebody call it out and name the thing that I had been struggling with internally, but now it was, like, in the New York Times!

So it felt really legitimate and I had words for it. And so I remember, like, the word integration sticking in my head. And when I got back home I was like, “This is the thing. This is, it's, it's integration! I got, I have to like look this up.”

And so I, it just started me on this path of, like, looking online and I found Integrated Schools almost immediately. And it was, like, all these things started coming together at once! You know, like, having a 5-year-old and thinking about the conversations that we were having at that time with parents. But feeling like something was really off with the things that we were hearing about the local school district. And then I, you know, just started listening to all the podcasts. And then it all came together.

Andrew: If you go back another step, like, what in your background or your upbringing, why did it not feel right to you?

Susan: Hmm.

Andrew: Why were the messages you were getting about the school, why weren't they sitting right with you and your husband?

Susan: So my background is in social work.

Andrew: Hmm.

Susan: And as a social worker, just part of our training and our studies are around, you know, breaking down systemic barriers for people that they face.

Like, that's a core tenet of the social work practice. And I was drawn to the social work practice for that reason. And I've always been a social worker working with children and families, and mostly undocumented immigrants–

Andrew: Hmm.

Susan: –who were the majority of my caseload. So I developed relationships with these people and cared for them and just was, was in relationship with them, right?

So I was already grounded though in that framework, of looking at systems and how they oppressed people.

Andrew: Hmm.

Susan: So that's kind of how I was trained. And I am forever grateful for my profession because it did help me shape my worldview.

So then we had our own child, right? And then you're in a system.

Andrew: Right.

Susan: And then you're starting to see how those systems operate.

But I think what's interesting is that I was very close to, like, getting pulled into the current, you know,

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Susan: of the narrative that we all talk about.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Susan: Uh, it's, it's kind of frightening how close we were to falling into it.

And I know that we referenced Nikole Hannah-Jones and her article a lot, but I think for a lot of us here in this community, she really was, a light, you know? And for a lot of parents with privilege, and especially White parents with privilege, what she was writing about really, like, touched on something that I hadn't heard before, but as a social worker, definitely resonated.

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: And then looking at my child and saying like, “How can I be a social worker with these values?”

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Susan: With this kind of framework of the world and what we're trying to do as a profession. Right? And then I have my own child, and then how, why, why would I go against that?

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Susan: But I have to tell you that, like, the narrative was so strong that even with that background, I was almost in the river. [Susan chuckles]

My husband and I were almost in that river! But I swear that, that, that article was like, “Come on out. Like come out, come on. We gotta get outta there!” [Susan laughs]

Andrew: It’s worse swimming. It's–

Susan: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. 100%.

Susan: So. Yeah.

Dr. Val: That's special.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Elias, tell us about school. Tell us about your school.

Elias: It's a, it's a great place. When I think of diversity, that's what I think of, my school, right? Like, there is like a sprinkling of White kids. There's a sprinkling of Asian kids, but it's mostly Latinx. It's mostly, you know, Black kids. It's, there's refugees, right? And, you know, there's, there's even kids from, like, Nepal that are in the school, right?

Susan: There's like 40 languages spoken.

Elias: Yeah. It's just this huge, like, just melting pot of all kinds of people and cultures.You know? And even if you wanted to get into like LGBTQ people, right? Like there's, you know, it's just, like, there's everybody at my school. Yeah. And I think it's actually a phenomenon that you don't see much, like, in America, from what I can tell.

This is, like, something that's in this area unique to this district, and I think that's something very special.

Dr. Val: What do you think the impact of that has been on you?

Elias: You know, if I were to go to a prep school that's predominantly White, you grow up with being around wealthy White people. And while, you know, I still know wealthy White people, I'm mostly around people who are not wealthy and not White, right?

And so, it teaches you this whole new perspective on things and how people see the world. And also what's going on in other communities.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Elias: And I think that's really been, like, a really good experience because it's just allowed me to see a perspective that's not just for my own. Like, it's allowed me to meet a ton of new people.

Dr. Val: That's dope.

Andrew: That's really cool.

Susan: We had this moment, not that long ago, where I think back to where we were, when you were little. And the things that we were hearing. And, all I wanted was, like, a crystal ball, like every parent. You just want a crystal ball to be like, “Show me what this is gonna be like in 15 years.” Like, you want to hear the stories, you want to hear how this goes, right? Because if you were believing everything you were hearing, oh my god! You know, he wouldn't even be here right now!

Andrew: He’s gonna be “ruined.” Right.

Susan: Right?

Elias: Right, yeah.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Susan: I just think it's an interesting spot to be in at this point in the journey. And being like, “Yeah. It's all right. I think you're good. You're, you're turning out okay.

Andrew: So far. I mean, you know, there’s still time!

Susan: So far! So far, so far. There's still time. [Laughter]

Dr. Val: Better than okay!

Susan: Yeah.

Andrew: Give, give us the lay of the land to Lancaster a little bit. What do the schools look like in general? What's the White–

Susan: Yeah.

Andrew: –parenting technique to either hoard opportunity or opt out? How do things typically play out?

Susan: Yeah. So, Lancaster City is about 60,000 people. I think it's a very unique location because Lancaster is known for its, like, more rural kind of Amish population. And before we moved here, that's kind of how I visualized it,

And then when we moved, I was quickly struck by how diverse the actual city of Lancaster is. There is a large African American population that has been here for centuries. There is a very large Puerto Rican population that has been here for decades.

And then, more recently we are known as the refugee capital of the United States. So we actually have, like, a really large population of refugee families. So I think it's 40% Latino. I wanna say about 40% White. 13% Black. And then, there's like a small proportion that's Asian and other, like, mixed race.

Elias: Yeah.

Susan: So the actual city is super, super diverse in the midst of this really rural, uh, very conservative, area of Pennsylvania. So it's a very unique place.

But not surprisingly, like, our school district does not reflect the population of the city.

So our, our school district is actually 60% Latino, primarily those of Puerto Rican descent. And then we are 17% African American. I think we're 12% White, and the rest is Asian or other race.

And then the other thing about our school district is that it's primarily low socioeconomic status. I think 85% of our school population is at or below the federal poverty level.

Andrew: Where do all the White kids go? We see it in every city, but every city has, like, a slightly different version of how it plays out.

Susan: Right. Here, it's predominantly private schools.

Andrew: Yeah.

Elias: There's three big ones around the city. There's a Catholic one, there's a prep one, and then just, like, an independent one. But I think most of the White parents in Lancaster County are going to be at, like, surrounding school districts. Like, not the city district, the ones around it.

Dr. Val: Ohh…

Susan: It's predominantly White, like White families around us. So I think that's another thing that we see is people moving out to the suburbs when their kids get to be school aged.

Elias: Where there's, like, no Black families out there. Like,

Susan: There are some. you know?

Elias: You know? Yeah.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Let's talk about elementary school. Where did you end up going? What were the demographics of that school like? How did that decision come to be? I'm guessing that Elias didn't have much say in your elementary school experience. [Val chuckles]

Elias: I, I did not, I did not. Um,

Dr. Val: You were like, “I’m trying to listen to Nikole Hannah-Jones too, mom!” [Everyone laughs]

Susan: Yeah. Whether he wanted to or not!

Dr. Val: Bedtime story.

Elias: Yeah, yeah. The 1619 project every night before bed. Yeah.

Dr. Val: That’s right.

Susan: Yep. Yep.

Andrew: “Once upon a time” [Laughter]

Elias: Yeah, so elementary school, we were coming from a school in our city, which, like, long story short wasn't a good fit.

Susan: It was a private, it was a Montessori.

Elias: It was a Montessori school. It just wasn't, like, good for me, you know? Like, they, the teachers didn't like me, you know.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Elias: In the end. Like, I don't, I don't know what I did.

Susan: Who didn't like you?

Elias: You know, they, they, they just didn't like me and I frankly didn't like them. [Susan laughs]

Andrew: The feeling was mutual!

Dr. Val: That’s right!

Elias: Yeah. It was, like, hippie White parents. Right? It was like, they weren't all rich. They were just really, really hippie. [Everyone laughs] So, we went to this new school, and it was almost like a breath of fresh air for me because, like, the teachers, they had so many kids, like, they don't care if you're, like, pretending to be Batman, and like, it's too, “too violent” or whatever.

While I still liked my teachers and I still got to know them very well, right? I learned, “Oh wow. You know, I'm, I'm not the center of those teacher's attention all the time anymore.” And that's something, you know, important to learn, I think.

Like, if you go working in an office, right? Like, just because you're working in a cubicle, like, there's 50 other people working in a cubicle.

Andrew: Mmm.

Elias: The boss isn't gonna pay attention just to you or just to one of them.

Susan: A life skill about working. I like that.

Elias: Right!

Susan: Yeah, that's true. I didn't even think about that one.

Elias: I learned that at a very young age in this school district.

Dr. Val: I don’t think all - maybe you do - realize, like, just how profound, like, this part of the conversation is because,

Susan: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: um, what you're talking about, I think is really important for privileged parents, and White parents, to hear, because we have done a really good job in this country of centering White and privileged people.

Elias: Yeah, for sure. Right.

Dr. Val: And to hear, like, there are also other people who have equal value in the world, uh, I think is not a lesson that people necessarily get, as you got that Elias. It's like, I, I'm just sitting here, like, my mind is just blown!

Because I didn't see that coming as one of your lessons. Right? And I didn't even know it was a lesson that could happen as a result of going an integrated school. You know, I thought more of along the lines of the value of being in a place with lots of different perspectives. I didn't think about the impacts of not being centered as one of the significant lessons.

Susan: Yeah. That's something we always struggled with, right? With a lot of those other schools, was that.

Elias: Yeah. And I think in fact, like as a White person, you probably should learn not to be centered, you know?

Susan: The whole thing is set up for you!

Elias: Yeah. It's set up for you to succeed and, you know. I think that's, that's really good to learn.

In kindergarten, like, we were all just hanging around White people. And so it was time to color, , there was like the tan/peach colored crayons. We say, “Pass me the skin color.” Right? Because it was what we knew.

And you know, by first grade, I was no longer saying, pass me the skin color. I was like, “Oh, this is not THE skin color.” Right? There's more, like the new norm was, there's, there's tons of, you know, skin colors.

Susan: Right.

Elias: It could be. Including orange, apparently. [Everyone laughs] But, yeah. You know? Who knew?

Andrew: Who knew?

Dr. Val: Who knew.

Elias: But that didn’t surface until a couple years later. So,

Susan: Yeah, that’s been a more recent one.

[Val and Andrew laugh more]

Dr. Val: This is the best interview ever!

Andrew: Were there things that you missed out on at that elementary school, that other people in your sort of social circles were getting at their, you know, staying at the Montessori school or going to the prep schools or whatever, where they're things that it felt like you were giving up in exchange for these important life lessons?

Elias: So, I think, like, the Montessori school it's definitely, like, has this, like, idea of, like, independence, right? You know, being able to choose what you want and, you know, select where you want to go. The independence there, like, that some people might think you're losing by sending your kid to a school with a set curriculum, like, that, you have to learn. I don't think that's true, right?

You know, like, you can still build a sense of individuality. It's a very diverse school that's primed time for building that individuality, right? Like, this is who I am. And it, it's even more meaningful I think, in a way.

Right? You know, you have something even more to add to this new community that you're part of.

Susan: We know a lot of families who continued to send their children to that school. Yeah, I think, I think it's an interesting question. Like, do you feel like the kids who now, interestingly, that, that school only goes to eighth grade, so a lot of them funnel into our high school, so now they're back into the high school.

But do you feel like those kids that went there, or even the kids that you know who have gone to like the other, you know, predominantly White schools in our city, like, do you feel like they're getting something that you haven't been? Like, do you feel like you're missing out on something?

Elias: I, I don't, I don't think so.

Dr. Val: So I, I always believe that White students who go to predominantly Black and Brown schools have the ability to break out of mold that is Whiteness. I feel like White kids in a predominantly White school feel like they have to subscribe to Whiteness. But if you go to a diverse school already, then I feel like you can possibly be more of yourself because you aren't only supposed to be a certain way, wear a certain brand, do certain things that are aligned with Whiteness. What are your thoughts on that?

Elias: Yeah I think that's definitely true because you know, obviously with all of those people comes all this culture, right? And that definitely, you know, influences who you are, how you think, how you view the world. I think that is like a hundred percent true. Like, you are able to break out of this, like, stereotypical mold of being like a privileged White person. Right.

Andrew: The second episode ever of the podcast was the Borden family from, from Minnesota

Susan: I remember that! Yes! That was very important. That was a very important episode.

Andrew: And Summer Borden who was a, who was a, I think she had actually just graduated. She was like a freshman in college at the time. But, she had said something to her parents about when they moved, they had moved from an almost all White school to a, to an integrating school. She just felt like there, there were so many more ways to be.

Susan: Absolutely.

Andrew: That at her all White school, there was only one way to be, and at this new school, like, the possibility of ways you could be had just expanded so much and that she really appreciated that.

Elias: Yeah.

Andrew: That was a great episode.

Elias: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. It opens up just, like, so many doors. Because, like, really if you are just spending time with one kind of person, you're going to only see that one kind of person, rather than seeing all these different kinds of people, right, in this very open, accepting community.

Dr. Val: I'm glad to hear that you have been accepted

Susan: I think, I think what you're touching on, Val, is like, that was my experience growing up, right?

Like, I think for, like, so many White people. I mean, the vast majority of us right, were, like, raised in these bubbles where it was like, “This is your religion, this is what you're going to do, this is how you're gonna be in the world.” And I think that was a hope of ours too, was to offer a different way to be White in the world.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Susan: You know? There are different ways we can do this.

Andrew: Totally.

Susan: How are you gonna do that if you're not in a, like, a system that isn't completely set up for it.

Elias: It’s like, you know, like, what I always like to think about. It's like, you know, it's like, “Oh, well, the civil rights movement ended everything!”

I'm like, you know, but, but did it? Right? Because, there's still just White people that just get clumped together, right? And it's completely separate.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Elias: And I think, like, in going into the school, I've learned, you know, maybe that's not the best way of doing things, right? Like, maybe you can't always just, you know, go home and hunker down in your boat.

Maybe you actually have to go out into the world and, you know, be with people.

Dr. Val: That's what’s up.

Andrew: Talk about middle school. Did you have a little more say in the middle school process?

Elias: No, I didn’t really have any say… [Val and Andrew laugh]. Just kind of go along.

Susan: You knew there was not a choice! There was never gonna be a choice that we were gonna make it work.

Elias: By that rate, the fire had been lit in my mom's heart.

Dr. Val: Good!

Elias: You're like, “You are going to a public school!”

Susan: Well, and I think middle school is that time. Right? Okay. So in our school district, like you have your neighborhood school. And we do live in a predominantly White neighborhood, and our city is very segregated. And then middle school, you start getting, I can't remember, four or five elementary schools into one.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Susan: So that's when things became even more integrated, was in middle school.

But that subsequently also when we saw people that we knew being like, “Ah, you know what? I think I'm gonna skip out of this. Like, maybe we'll see you back in high school.” Right? Like, there's just this weird thing with middle school.

But yeah, you knew, I was like, no, we're not. Again, it was kind of like the elementary “river” of things that we were hearing. Right? It just gets more intense when you're in middle school.

Andrew: Yeah.

Elias: Everything gets more intense when you're in middle school. [Val laughs]

Andrew: Amen.

Elias: Yeah. That's just middle school.

Dr. Val: That's a sound bite.

Susan: And that’s just middle school!

Elias: It’s middle school, man! Yeah.

Susan: 12 year olds, like they're 11 year olds. Like, they are gonna be a little insane for a little while! Things get a little rough, you know, for all the kids.

Elias: So, middle school was very different because in, in elementary school, it is just like randomized classes. Right? You know, like one year I'd be with my best friend one year I wouldn't be, right? And that's just how it was.

But in my middle school, this is not the case at all middle schools, but there was like the honors classes. And so the honors classes, like–

Susan: There was tracking, tracking starts.

Elias: –very, like, very early on, I was like, “Oh, where did all the Black and Latinx people go?”

You know, it's like, oh, well they're in the classroom next door and you just move around with this class all day.

That was one thing that definitely kind of, like, struck me as a little bit different than what I've been used to in elementary school.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Elias: Which it was a very segregated system. It was obvious, right? Like, every, every honors kid knew it. It was kind of a bit problematic because yeah, it definitely took away from a lot of the people that you could have connected with and could have been friends with.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Elias: Since middle school was, like, the real time for that, you know, from making your friends. So I think that was kind of, that was kind of sad.

But there were still classes that I had that were with everybody. But, you know, I, it, it definitely was something to note.

Susan: It was notable. Yeah. The tracking.

Andrew: Well, you noticed it. I mean, I feel like that’s–

Elias: Yeah.

Andrew: You know, the benefit of having been in your elementary school was you noticed it enough to be like, “Hmm, something is weird about this.” [Susan chuckles]

Elias: Yeah.

Andrew: Because, like, the system is set up to tell you that “This is normal, this is the way things are supposed to be, and don't question it.” Right.

Susan: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Then how about high school?

Susan: That's where all of them come together. Yeah. It's all of it, it's everybody.

Elias: That's a, that's, that's just back in the melting pot again. Even more so than elementary school, even, like, there were some classes where I'm like the only White kid in the class.

Susan: And to our school district's credit, I think starting when you were in middle school, they were starting to have these conversations about “How are we doing in-school segregation as well?”

Elias: They've gotten better at it.

Susan: Right.

Elias: It's gotten better.

Susan: And I do think that they're making efforts.

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: Like, start de-tracking students. And I think we're starting to see that in the high school. Right?

Susan: So I will give our school district credit because I think that was the leaders. They made equity a part of what they wanted to address.

Andrew: Right.

Susan: And if you're gonna address that, then you're gonna have to look at how, how in-school segregation's playing out too.

Elias: Yeah. There's some classes where I'm, like, the only White kid. And it is like an experience, you know, to learn because it's one that I've had, you know, countless times. And now it's just like second nature. And that's, like, being the only White person in the room.

And I think a lot of parents probably send their kids to private schools because they don't want that uncomfortable situation for their kids.

And the truth is, if you are the only person of anything mm-hmm. In a room, it's going to be uncomfortable. Right? And like, how do you think people have been feeling, throughout history, right? You know, like, being the only woman in a room full of men, right?

Even in politics, right? Look at the Senate, look at the House, right? It's like there's a handful of Black people and it's, like, all White people.

It's like, wow, like, this is, this is something that's real. It's something that happens. You know, sometimes you are just, like, the only person that's White in a room. And you have to learn how to be in that situation.

And, you know, spoiler alert, it's actually not that hard. Right? [Everyone laughs] You know, it's, it's, it's not!

Andrew: Surprise! You actually can just be in that space.

Susan: You can do it!

Elias: We're all human! We all like sports, you know, we all like, you know, movies and stuff. Like, it's not hard. Yeah. So it, it, you know, it's, it's actually like a skill and like, unless the people are all, like, jerks, then I have no problem being in that room, you know?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Right, but in a room full of jerks it doesn't matter what race they are. [Laughter]

Elias: It doesn't, it doesn't matter!

Dr. Val: Correct.

Andrew: It doesn’t have to do with their race.

Elias: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Andrew: I mean, I do think there, like, there are so few White people who have that experience.

Elias: Right.

Andrew: And you are right, people are, like, terrified of it and think that it’s got to be awful and debilitating. But like you said, it, it, like, oh, it's actually you just get to be a person in a room. Not actually a big deal.

Elias: It is just, yeah. It's just a normal part of life. Yeah.

Dr. Val: So it's clear that you all have a relationship and you've been talking about these things for a long time.

Elias: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Can you talk a little bit about how that started, how you maintain this open communication around these ideas?

Susan: Well, how, how do we talk about race and difference and…?

Elias: I think from a young age, you guys were like, well, you know, how does it feel because they didn't have this experience in their schools, right? And they're like, “Well, how does it feel?”

I'm like, like, “What do, what do you mean?”You know, like,

Andrew: It felt like school.

[Laughter]

Elias: What am–

Susan: What are we talking about?

Elias: –what am I supposed to be feeling? You know? Yeah. I think that really, like, it's just easy to talk about it with you and dad. You have prompted those conversations and it's just, easy. You know, once you've learned what people can look like, what people do, you know, how they act, you realize that, you know, humans are all pretty similar.

Susan: Mm-hmm.

Elias: Even if you struggle with that, like, right?, like, you don't want to be the only White person in a room, I would say just, like, go into the room with that attitude, like, these people are not different from me. And what they think and what they feel. Right?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Elias: Like, I can assume that they're gonna be pretty reasonable just like me. I can assume that they're probably gonna have a favorite movie, favorite color, just like me. Right? If you go into that perspective, that, like, humanist perspective, you will feel infinitely less uncomfortable.

Susan: But I think, I do think your schooling experience has allowed, I mean, we talk about race, I feel like a lot. A lot. It comes up all the time because I think when you're living, even if the school district is so diverse, I mean, you're still living in a super segregated city.

I mean, we see it all over the place. Like, when we go eat at restaurants.

Elias: Yeah.

Susan: It's crazy how even though our school district is like this, you can go out into the community and we point it out like, “Oh my goodness, like we, there is only White people in this restaurant.” Right?

Elias: Yeah.

Susan: And, like, we see it a lot. And I feel like your, your school experience has allowed us to talk openly about race.

Elias: Well, and also just–

Susan: And about privilege, and the way it operates in your school and outside of the school.

Elias: I also think it just like, like, the, the experience of being in that school for 10 years, right? It just allowed me to, like, think pretty simply about it. Right? Like, you, you and dad, I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong.

Susan: No, he does correct us a lot, like, it's,

[Laughter]

Dr. Val: I’m here for it.

Elias: They'll be like talking about this, like, like going on this really [Susan laughs] complicated rant about, like, you know, systemic racism.

Like, it's, you know, it's, it's actually not that complicated. [Laughter] It's a pretty simple concept to get down. You know? Even if, when you hear what you know, people who are actually, you know, being oppressed and, like, what they have to say about it, you know? It really is just, like, pretty simple. Like, it's not rocket science, you know?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Elias: You could write it out on paper in about three seconds, right?

Andrew: Right, yeah, it's such an important point, I think makes Susan that, like the, you get this opportunity to then talk about it. And so, you start talking about it from the time that, that, that he’s five. And now it doesn't feel like that big a deal and you don't feel like, “Now's the time.” You know, “He's turning 15, it's time to have ‘the talk’ about race.”

Susan: [Laughing] Yeah.

Andrew: And now like, “I've gotta say all the things, I've gotta say it all at once.”

Susan: Yeah.

Andrew: “I gotta convey all these complicated messages all in one, like, big, major conversation.” But if you're having them all along the way, then, then like Elias said, “Oh, it's actually not that deep, Mom. I'm like, it’s cool. I get it!”

Susan: But I also, I get it. Yeah. I think about, how are White parents that aren't in this system, how are, I don't understand how they're having that conversation. I really don't, I don't know how,

Elias: Well, and if they ARE having that conversation, right?

Susan: Or, yeah, even if they are! I'm guessing that they're not because I can't imagine you, how do you even have that conversation in that context? I don't know.

Dr. Val: One of the narratives around why you can't have these conversations, and that's, like, the “feelings of guilt and shame” as a White person, specifically a straight, White male.

In the, in the conversations that you've had in school, or with parents, how do you navigate any of those? Do those ever come up? Is that just smoke and mirrors?

Elias: So, making White people feel shame in my school is kind of like a joke. It's not really, like, an issue. Sometimes I have been put in that position where it's like you are the only White male in the room, so people are gonna be like, “Yeah, look at this White guy. What's he doing here?” You know? And you just kind of have to roll along with it, 'cause you shouldn't feel ashamed in that moment. Right? And you should, maybe you shouldn't be, like, proud, but I've never felt that shame in my school.

Like, nobody's coming at you in the public schools. It's not like they're just like waiting around the corner for a White kid and just be like, “Oh, look at–”

[Susan laughs]

Like, like, this isn't, there's no, like,

Susan: They have things to learn and a life to live that doesn't involve you.

Elias: Yeah. Like, you're not, you're not believe, and it's again, like you're not the center of their attention, right?Like,

Andrew: Right.

Elias: They’ve got bigger fish to fry. Yeah.

Dr. Val: I appreciate that. That's why states and, and municipalities are passing laws to not talk about some of these topics because they don't want students to “feel bad.” I really appreciate your perspective.

Susan: Yeah,

Andrew: It is a counter-cultural choice that you made. The reason that it felt like the, the draw of the river was so appealing was because, you know, you had to opt out, you had to choose to do something different.

Susan: Yeah.

Andrew: What helped you stick with that? What helped you, hold on to these sort of beliefs as you were making that choice, Susan?

Susan: I think one of the things was having a supportive partner who was very much aligned with me and, you know, in moments of weakness would be like the person who would say “No. We're not going to jump into that river.” I think having a close group of friends who I had to find, you know, who are aligned and who are making similar choices. Who I trusted, because you do have conversations where you have to get vulnerable with people.

I don’t know, I think seeking out people who hold a similar value, who can also hold you to account is really important.

And I think you all. I mean, I really do. I think Integrated Schools and I wrote a blog about this, but on days where I would hear another super toxic “smog” story, just being able to go back to, I would just pick an episode, right? And just try to get my mind back right? Because it can really mess with your brain. It can really mess with how you're thinking about a thing or you see a thing.

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: It’s very distorted.

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: And when so many people around you are kind of saying the same thing, you start to feel like you're the one losing your mind.

Dr. Val: Yep.

Susan: So I think having a close group of friends who share a value with you and when we're struggling, we rely on each other and we hold each other to account and say, “Yeah, but,” right? When we start going into those narratives.

And I think, I really do, I credit Integrated Schools, 'cause there's just not much else out there, you know? You all have been, like, my sanity. You know, I think that and my, my partner and so many other parents who–

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: –to this day remain with us, you know?

Dr. Val: Has your social circle changed, or did you always have a, a diverse group of friends?

Susan: Yeah. It's definitely changed because I do think it's natural, right? For parents to kind of hang out with the parents wherever your kids are going to school. Like, that's something I've definitely seen is we did have people who were in our social circle and then who made different choices, and then they got new friends. And a lot of 'em are in our neighborhood.

Right? So we see them all the time. But it's like our relationship has completely changed, you know?

We definitely advocate for public education and we definitely advocate for our public school district because, I think maybe Courtney Mykytyn talks a little bit about like the toxic smog that goes around, and then there's like waves that come. Like, if somebody decides to leave the district, they'll kind of try to bring the whole thing down with them on the way out. And just trying to, like, pull it back and say like, “No, actually, but our school district is actually trying to accomplish like a really extraordinary thing.”

It is the one place in our community where we actually come together. Like, for real.

Andrew: Right.

Susan: So, I don't like seeing it, like, maligned or anything. 'cause I think that it's actually, what it's trying to do is quite extraordinary.

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Susan: And when you consider what it's trying to accomplish, it deserves our full respect.

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: You know? And the teachers there, you know? I think they're like teachers everywhere. There's some good teachers. There's teachers that aren't as–

Dr. Val: That’s it. That’s gonna be everywhere.

Susan: Yeah, maybe not as good. You know, when you're teaching a group of students that has that much need, it gets challenging. You know? And we are underfunded.

Andrew: Of course.

Susan: Of course. You know? So there's just, there's so many things. But, even when I start feeling the pull. I don't feel it as much anymore, which is really nice.

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: But I remember when he was in grade school into middle school, it was, it got strong. And so I, I think that was one of the reason that I wanted to come on here, is to say, like, for people who are going through that, right? At that time, I just wanted to know, like, “What does the future hold? What's this gonna be like?” Right? And I couldn't fast forward it.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, yeah. You just have to play it out and see. Elias, were there, like, social costs to you? Do you feel like there were friends or friends from the Montessori school or something, that, that there was some, like, “Oh, why are you going to that school?”

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Andrew: Or that there was some social costs to you to this choice?

Elias: Well, in my case, looking back on my friends in the Montessori school, they weren't very good friends. But,

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Andrew: Heh.

Elias: You know, I, like, I was able to make friends at the new school pretty easily.

Susan: You did lose some friends though. I mean, your friends changed.

Elias: They did, yeah. Mm-hmm. Because a lot of them went to different schools. Yeah, I don't think I lost much socially. I mean, again, at the age of, like, five, how much can you lose socially. You know, it's just like, “Oh, bye!” [Laughter] You know, “Time, time for new friends!”

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: Here’s a new friend!

Elias: Yeah. Like, “Hi, friend.”

Andrew: Whatever you lost, like, what you gained on the other side of it was so much more valuable and worthwhile and meaningful.

Elias: Yeah,

Dr. Val: Do you also feel prepared to go on to a post-secondary, whether it's college or career life, going to this predominantly Black and Brown high school?

Elias: Yeah, I definitely do. And especially one of these giant state schools, that has, like, tens of thousands of kids. There's no way you're gonna spend a single day where you're only talking to White people, right?

And I think that, that's something absolutely to consider preparing a kid for college.

Andrew: So the high school now has brought a bunch of people back together. People who had Montessori, who had prep school, who had Catholic school, whatever, all sort of back together, you don't feel like you're academically behind or drowning or not able to keep up.

I mean, I think that's one of the things that parents will often use as a justification for opting out, particularly at middle school, right? It's like, well now, as, as Courtney Mykytyn used to say, like, middle school is where things get hair, both literally and figuratively. [Susan Laughs]

Susan: Yeah! That's great.

Andrew: And so, like, you know, the excuse will be, “Well, like, now the academics really count and I don't want them to fall behind and then not be able to take whatever math class that's gonna allow them to go to college or whatever.

But you don't feel like you're sort of lost out on some academic things–

Elias: No,

Andrew: –from the schools you went to?

Elias: Not at all. Actually, rather than me getting set behind I think I was well in pace, and you know, even even like, maybe even more in pace with them, in a lot of ways.

Susan: Yeah, I think that that's like one of the narratives that kind of freaked me out the most. Right? And actually now that he's here and you know, we have statewide assessments, so you know how you're performing on average with other kids.

Right? And, you haven't fallen behind academically at all. In fact, you've excelled.

Elias: Yeah.

Susan: And I think that's, again, that's like a testament to our school district and the teachers. So like, it's been the opposite

Andrew: Yeah.

Susan: Kids that have come from other schools are actually, they're the ones who are academically behind.

Andrew: Yeah.

Elias: And I think even, like, socially too. Like, you know, if you are going up around an all White community

Susan: Yeah.

Elias: You're not going to learn how to be in a community that's not White.

Susan: I think that's another thing we've seen.

Elias: Yeah.

Susan: There's some kids that do transition into our school. I think they–

Elias: And they just hang around the other kids that came from the same school!

Susan: That, or it's been socially hard. It’s a hard transition.

Elias: I, and I do wanna like, emphasize the message to, to parents here.Don't think “Oh, then it's too late to send my kid to that school.” I don't think that that's true at all.

It's ideal to send somebody in the school from K through 12. But that's not always the case for a lot of people. I would say it's not too late.

It might be a little bit hard, a little bit challenging to find, make new friends, you know? But I do think it, it's worth it. It's something you have to adapt to. Right? And I think people can do it, you know, with the right mindset. They can absolutely fit into that school perfectly, you know?

Dr. Val: What do you wanna be when you grow up?

Elias: I don't know yet.

Dr. Val: If you decide to, to, to be a parent, I think you would be phenomenal at that.

Elias: Yeah.

Susan: Thank you so much.

Elias: Thank you.

Susan: That's really sweet.

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Elias: Yeah, that is really sweet. Yeah. My kids are going straight to the, the closest public school.

Dr. Val: That’s right.

Susan: He knows we'd just disown him.

Elias: Yeah.

Dr. Val: That’s it.

Susan: So we've, we've set that one.

Elias: “Where’s grandma? Grandma doesn't exist!” [Laughter] Yeah. She's, we, we chose the school.

Susan: Grandma’s gone!

Elias: Yeah.

Laughter]

Susan: Yeah.

Andrew: Susan, how does it, how does it feel to be here? I mean, you're not done. Your work is not done. Tenth grade,

Susan: No, it's not done.

Andrew: You know, there’s still some time. But yeah, like, how does it feel to be on the other side of the terror of it?

Susan: Again, it's the, it was not the school, it was not the students. It was the people around me.

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Susan: That were really messing with my mind. And, um, so right now, I feel at peace. I feel at ease. I breathe a sigh of relief.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: I think what I wasn't expecting tonight was to hear you tell my story and share the same things that I feel. So I just wanna thank you both for naming these things so clearly that I have felt and experienced. And have also felt like, am I the only one who is feeling and, and noticing these things? So, I really appreciate that. I thank you both.

Elias: Of course.

Susan: Yeah. And I appreciate this opportunity too.

Andrew: Yeah. I'm really grateful to you both for being willing to share, for coming on, for having stuck with it. You know, Elias, I, if, if my kids turn out like you, I feel like I'm, I'm doing, I'm doing well! And that is such a–

Elias: Well, thank you. Yeah,

Andrew: –such a, uh

Dr. Val: Aww!

Andrew: Because you're right, Susan. It is terrifying. You don't actually know if any of these things that you believe deeply in are gonna actually pan out. And, you know–

Susan: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –I've got a, a 13-year-old and if in a couple of years, she has similar things to say, I'll feel like, “Okay, this was all, this was all a win.” So, I'm really grateful.

Elias: I recently read Marcus Aurelius's meditations, and in it he writes that you should forget worrying about the past 'cause you can't control the past. And you also really can't control the future. You can have these goals, but you can't actually control that you'll reach these goals. And I think, you know, if you’re worried about what's gonna happen to your kids in the future, I think what you have to remember is that what you have is the present moment.

Andrew: Mm.

Elias: That's what you have to work with. And that's what you have to make decisions with.

Susan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. We don't have that crystal ball.

Elias: Right. You have to do what you think you should be doing in the present moment. And I, if you have faith that the decisions you're making are right. You know, I think, yeah. I think that's, that's what you have, you know?

Susan: You just don’t know. Yeah.

Elias: You just don’t know. And you have to take it as it comes. Yeah.

Susan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Beautiful

Susan: Do your best.

Dr. Val: I’m just going to go cry in the corner!

Elias: Yeah. Thank you guys. Aw, this is fun.

Susan: Aww! [Val laughs] This has been so lovely. I, I don't wanna leave!

[THEME MUSIC]

Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Dr. Val: I'm incredibly grateful for Susan and her husband, and the conditions that they have created for Elias to experience something that I know deep down in my heart is valuable and worthy every single day. Right? And choosing humanity over fear is something that, really, really sticks with me from this particular story.

The way in which, throughout that conversation, Elias used, like the pronoun “we” or “our school,” it demonstrated such a sense of ownership, such a sense of belonging that he felt there. It wasn't like he was visiting or doing anybody a favor, you know? Like, it was, it's his community.

And I think that's all I want for everyone everywhere, right? For them to be in a place where they feel like, this is my community, this is my,

Andrew: This is ours.

Dr. Val: This is ours. And there's no one telling you like, “You don't belong here,” whether it's our country or our city. That you can come and be a part of a place and feel that sense of collective ownership, like, together. Like, we are in this together.

There's many things that I'd left that conversation just really grateful for. But that was a big one for me, because it didn't feel like Elias or his parents felt like they were doing Black people any favors, right? [Val chuckles] Like, you're actually here 'cause you wanna be here, and you enjoy being here and you see the value in being here. And I think that's a really important message to convey, as we talk about how to show up in this space.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, clearly Elias feels like he is part of that community. And the “how we show up” part of this work is so important and not showing up as White saviors.

There's a way in which they have approached this that feels like a, a good job of walking that line between, clearly, Elias has gotten so much out of this, but it was not just a different form of opportunity hoarding. And clearly, like, I think their, their community is better off, their city is better off, for them participating in it, but they didn't do it just to try to make the world a better place. Right? Like, they did it because they wanted to be part of the community. And I think that they, they provide a great example of kind of walking that line.

Dr. Val: Yeah. What feels important to emphasize over and over and over and over and over again, is points where we have a sense of shared humanity. And I'm gonna go back to what Susan said about listening to Nikole Hannah-Jones and Nikole Hannah-Jones being in the midst of making that same decision for her child. And so, when you talk about walking that line or, or not being a White savior, what I sensed from Susan was there was a real sense of like, “Here's someone like me experiencing this very same thing.”

“Although we have different experiences, live in different places, certainly have different racial backgrounds, there's this thing that I can connect to that it's clear that Nikole Hannah-Jones understands what I am feeling right now.”

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val: And that was the connection point. It wasn't a situation where there was a gathering of folks to say like, “How can we save this particular group without really understanding or being connected to,” or whatever. And so, it's not lost on me that it was another mother's story that clicked for Susan.

Andrew: Right. It's like the, the other stuff gets out of the way. The racial difference, the class difference, are able to, to be set aside to see this shared “I am a parent who cares about the wellbeing of my kid and my community, and I'm grappling with this. And here is another. parent who is doing the same thing. We share this.”

You know, and, those are the experiences that remind us that, that we have so much more in common than what separates us.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: That, that's the promise of Integrated schools, right? It is like, our kids get to start doing this. So, there was sort of a, a perfect confluence of events for Susan where Nikole Hannah-Jones, who's writing in the New York Times magazine, who is able to present these ideas in a way that can really reach across boundaries, hits her at this moment where she is also grappling with this. And she's got her, you know, social work training that's got her attuned to these things in the first place. And this, sort of like, perfect confluence of events that triggers this kind of chain reaction. But, like, how much easier will that step be? I mean, Elias said right at the end, like, “I know my kids are going to public school,” like, “Or my mom's gonna disown me!”

Dr. Val: Love it.

Andrew: So, he is set up, even better to, to engage in this. And, like Eli said, it's actually not that complicated, right?

If, if we actually start on the path of we are all human, this, like, humanist perspective, that actually, there's all these things that make us similar, that it's actually not that complicated. That we actually can find each other's shared humanity, if we are in the spaces to do it.

Dr. Val: In addition to academically being on track, having a greater sense of shared humanity, it was also clear how he was gonna apply his experiences being in a diverse area to his work life, his professional life, his, like, adult life. “This is what is going to be required of me, you know, as I go to college” or “what it looks like in the workplace. I'm gonna work with people different from me and I'm gonna have to figure out how to do that. And I may be the only one in the room again, and I see value in that as well.” And so, he does make it seem so simple. Right? [Val chuckles] He makes it seem very simple.

You know, I am not surprised that Elias has had a good experience. And there's part of me that never wants other White families or privileged families to be surprised, you know, that they've had a good experience at a school that is primarily Black and Brown. And yet, I I, people feel that way.

When we read research about the benefit of attending an integrated school, like we, we can process that logically, but there are so many lessons that Elias named that I wasn't expecting. And, a significant one for me was his, his internalization of, like, the White male body not being centered. That everyone in the classroom space has equal value. And even recognizing that as young as early elementary school. [Val chuckles]

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: When it went from, “Hey, look at me and everything that I'm doing,” like, “Hey, Elias, you, you're one of the other kids here.” [Val laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: You know? And, and not to say that he wasn't attended to, but certainly Elias felt a shift in his own spirit. Like, “Oh wait, it's not just about me here” and how that can make a significant difference moving forward. And, and I, that, that part blew my mind

Andrew: It is, it is reassuring, even for me, to sort of see where Elias has landed after this experience.

And, and obviously, you know, everybody's experience is different in every school. This is one example, but my hope is that, that listeners will hear it and it will help turn down as Anna Lodder from our leadership team often talks about, like, the shark music.

That sense of danger, the sense of fear that you talked about, that you can see an example of a kid who went to all the schools that I'm sure are “poorly rated,” that the White community has opted out of, and yet has ended up in this place. Not just on track or maybe even ahead academically, but also with this great sense of shared humanity, also with this great sense of an appropriate space for him to fill in the world.

I don't think you get to a school where everybody gets to say “we” about the school community, where everybody gets to feel like this is “our community” unless everybody has a, kind of like, appropriate sense of how much space they're supposed to take up.

Dr. Val: Mm.

Andrew: And I think that that is a big piece of what Elias got, you know, starting in elementary school, is like, the world doesn't revolve around you. You belong, but you belong in this sort of reasonably sized bucket, not in a bucket that is, as you know, as big as the universe.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm. When you talked about the fear, like that, that the shark music, I can certainly recognize and hear that sharp music, if I'm putting my kids in a space where they might be the only Black children there, right?

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Is that the same shark music that is playing or is it different?

Do we hear the same shark music when we talk about, like, the fears for our children and, and being in places that might be unfamiliar to them. I just imagine that one set of conditions feels genuinely dangerous, [Val laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: To, like the soul of a young person, whereas others just are like perceived or fantasized danger.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And, you know, that might not be fair. I don't know if that's fair, but…

Andrew: No, I, I, I think it, I think, it totally is. And I have reflected on this as well. I think actually maybe in like episode nine, the only one, talking about my experience of being one of the, you know, a small handful of White kids. Like, there, there were challenges to that for sure. There were ways in which I felt you know, “other” and had to work to find, belonging, but it was between eight and four.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: In a society, in a country, that was set up for me to belong in, all the time. And even in that school, was with largely White teachers and administrators, who also, you know, gave me a sense of belonging and, like, school was a place for me.

So I think the stakes are totally different. I think you're totally right. It's a tiny hint of what the experience of being the only one is like, but I don't, I don't think it's the, maybe the same shark music, but it's a very different sized shark or something.

Dr. Val: Hmm! That makes sense.

Andrew: Like, everybody wants their kids to thrive. Everybody wants their kids to be okay. And I think that's that, like that's where that kind of desire for the crystal ball that Susan talked about comes from, right? Is, like, I want to know that what I'm doing is gonna be right and we never get to know. But, like, that desire for the crystal ball I think is also somewhat universal.

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely. And I was in a conversation with a parent who, they have early elementary school kids, and they were talking about like just decisions regarding, whether they should - a Black family - whether they should do a homeschool scenario, and whether they should do, like, outside tutoring at one of the, like, tutoring agencies.

They were dissatisfied, like, with the current math instruction specifically that their child was getting. You know, they, they thought the social/emotional was okay, but they were concerned about the math instruction.

And I have a, a junior and a sophomore, and I'm able to reflect and connect to those really deep feelings of anxiety around like, “Are we making the right choice?” Right? In the early days, like, they are so weighty.

Andrew: They feel so weighty.

Dr. Val: Ah, they feel so weighty! And I feel lighter about it now. And, and what I shared was, you know, I'm, I'm very close to graduation.

My kids have a path and we're close to the, to that destination there.

And, you know, what I shared was, you know, once they graduate, they'll go to college. Maybe they'll change their major a couple times. Maybe their major will be something that, you know, they eventually work in. Maybe not. But hopefully like they grow into to wonderful adults they find their people. You know, they find themselves and, and they're going to be okay.

And I think that being where I am, I'm able to, like, rest a little bit because we've gone through so many of these other decisions, and each time they've been, they've been okay. You know, we've made it. Um, and it hasn't been without its bumps and it hasn't been without, like, regrets. Like, I, you know, I wish this was different, or I wish this teacher was different. Like, all of those things have happened.

Andrew: That's, can I just sit, sit on that for one second? Because I think that that is such an important part of it is, like, every decision is not gonna be perfect. And that's okay, right? Like, their, your kids are gonna have a year where their teachers are not great. It's gonna happen. That's not the end of the world, right? And that doesn't mean that you did a bad job in, like, trying to decide where to send them. That is the nature of going to school. Some days are better than others, some teachers are better than others.

Dr. Val: Yeah, and, what I told them is like, sure, choose the additional tutoring, if that makes you feel good in this moment. And know that you can always choose again. Like, this is not a permanent choice. So, I would love for you to stay in public school, but if you decide to do homeschooling, you can choose again another time.

Right? Like, that part I wish I heard from parents who were a little bit ahead of me. Like, this right now, in this moment is what will give you peace and quiet, that voice and make you feel like you're not in shark infested waters. There's other choices that you can make and you can make, you know, choices again and again, and again.

Andrew: I love that. I, I literally was having a conversation this morning with a parent who's, you know, thinking about choices for high school, for her son. And, you know, you would like to pick a high school for your kid to go to, but really what you're picking is where are they going to start ninth grade. Right?

Like, if they start ninth grade and two weeks in, it's a disaster, go somewhere else. If they get through ninth grade and it wasn't great, you pick somewhere else for, for 10th grade. And I loved when Elias said, like, it's not too late, right? Like, “I am so grateful that I had this experience from the time that I was in kindergarten and could recognize that there wasn't just ‘the skin colored crayon,’ but actually skins come in all different colors. I'm so grateful that I had that. And if you didn't start, then it's okay. It's not too late. If you go in with the right attitude you can make this choice at any sort of any stage along your journey.” I loved that.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I did too. Thank you, Susan and Elias. Really giving me hope to kick off the new year.

Andrew: Yes. Absolutely, it is challenging times. I think, you know, the need for community, as we said in the beginning is, is strong. Susan mentioned that was kind of what helped her get through. Certainly listeners, if you are looking for that community, you feel like you don't have it in your local context, see if there's an Integrated Schools chapter in your neighborhood.

If not, maybe you wanna start one. Maybe you just wanna reach out and get connected more closely to the organization, join a book club or, get to know somebody here. We are always here looking to connect people.

We have our caregiver connection program. We can connect you to another parent or caregiver who's in a similar situation. Go to the website integratedschools.org and just get closer to us as an organization. We are here for that.

Dr. Val: That's right. Thank you for listening. And what we want to encourage you to listen, and to share what you're learning, the things that you're feeling, the conversations that you're having. So don't just make this an isolated experience.

Certainly share this with someone else in your community. And then call us! 'Cause you could very well be on an upcoming episode of Integrated Schools. We want nothing more than this to be a community-based podcast, where you're not just hearing our voices, but you're hearing your voices as well.

Andrew: Absolutely speakpipe.com/integratedschools or go to our website integrated schools.org. Click on the Leave Us a Voicemail button. We would love to hear from you. Or just shoot us an email: podcast@integratedschools.org and tell us your story. Doesn't have to be fully fleshed out. You've got some idea kicking around, some conversation you just had. We want to hear about it.

My hope is that people found a lot that resonated with them in Susan's story. She is one mother, Elias is one son in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. And yet, there's so much from her story that I certainly resonated with, so much from the from Elias's story that seemed familiar and useful and valuable to me.

And maybe you don't see that in your own story right now, but reach out, we'd love to talk about it, because we think there is so much universality in these stories that happen all around the country.

Dr. Val: Yes. We encourage you to think about Integrated Schools as part of your giving efforts this year. So, you can do that in three ways. You can simply go to our website and click the donate button. We take denominations of thousand, 10,000 [Andrew and Val laugh], 100,000.

Andrew: Whatever they come in.

Dr. Val: You can also join our Patreon, where you'll get bonus content, and then we have a new feature: Integrated Schools+, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, there's an opportunity to get some additional content there with a small donation.

Andrew: Yes, your support means the world to us. Helps us keep the podcast going. As we wrap up here, thinking about where Elias left us with Marcus Aurelius's–

Dr. Val: Love it.

Andrew: –call to live in the moment.

We can't control the past. We can't control the future, but we can make the best decisions we can in these moments. Certainly, it was the right decision to have Susan and Elias come on the podcast. Really grateful to them for doing it. And always feels like the right decision in the moment to be in conversation with you, Val, so,

Dr. Val: Aww, you’re gonna make me cry.

Andrew: I'm grateful to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.