S11E5 – Reflections on the 2024 Election

Election Reflections

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Reflections on the 2024 Election. So, Val, the election's over. What'd you think? [laughs a little]

Dr. Val: You know what when I was plugging up my mic, I was like, I know he's gonna ask me, “ So Val, what'd you think?” I knew you were gonna do that. I was gonna warn you not to do that. But before you hit ‘record’ you did ask me a question. Can you ask the question out loud so the people can hear the question?

Andrew: How are you doing?

Dr. Val: In the beginning of the pandemic, when people started to be honest about not being well…

Andrew: MmmHmm

Dr. Val: …right? When they were like, “I'm not okay.” And it was like you…

Andrew: Actually I’m not good, right?

Dr. Val: …yeah, you were encouraged to actually like, say those words. And so, for those listening, it's the end of the week of our presidential election. We've had a couple of days to kind of sit in the outcome. And, um, every time someone asks me that, they're like, just checking in. You okay? Nope. Nope. Nope. Mm-Mmm. I'm not Okay. Mm-Mmm. Nope. I think I vacillate between disbelief, rage, sadness, disappointment, little bit of fear about like, what's next? Certainly some annoyance.

Andrew: MmmHmm.

Dr. Val: Yeah, those are, those are the feels that come up for me. How about you?

Andrew: Yeah. I don't have much surprise or disbelief unfortunately. Um, a lot of sadness for sure. I feel like the pit of what might be coming feels like so frightening that every time I like, get close to the edge of it, I feel like I just wanna walk back and sit in the rage and the disappointment and the sadness of the immediate sort of aftermath. Because yeah, I think it's scary. I don't wanna look at it and we're gonna have to.

Dr. Val: We haven't even started the start, started it. We're T minus three months.

Andrew: Talk a little bit more about your disappointment.

Dr. Val: Um, I think that's rooted in, um, what I think I understood to be professed values of a lot of people. And so if you say you value like integrity or good character or competence, kindness.

Andrew: Human decency.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I think our votes are an extension of our values, so I just don't believe you anymore.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: You know? Like I am, I am wired to want to understand.

Andrew: Mmmm-Hmm.

Dr. Val: And I was gonna say at some point I'm gonna wanna understand and I don't know that I can understand.

Andrew: Beyond just racism and misogyny. Yeah. I think the trauma of 2016, I never really fully allowed myself to hope, to like really believe that it might actually happen.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: And it was still shocking. And I was deeply disappointed and I think, I think because of that 2016 trauma, I didn't realize. So, so the moment, the moment I had, I like ugly cried was her concession speech.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: And I think it was in that moment that I realized how much, like how much I wanted for my kids, for her, for that to be a possibility, how much I wanted them to live in a world where she could be the president. And I, I, it wasn't until that moment that I think I let myself think about that part of it.

Dr. Val: Hmm. You know, I, I to that hopefulness that you speak of, um, I think when it was first announced that she was gonna be a candidate, my heart was like, there's no way they're gonna elect her. There's no way. And, but the campaign as short as it was, was just so fun and it seemed to galvanize so many people and there seemed to be a really clear choice.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: In terms of like, who would look out for us. And that's not what the majority of voters agreed with. Um. So, Wednesday was hard. Wednesday was hard.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yesterday, uh. I revisited James Baldwin.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val: And I would love for you to play this clip.

James Baldwin: I'm not talking now merely about race, and I'm certainly not talking merely about Southerners. I am talking, really about two thirds of my public and technical allies. People who believe that it is time that the country became a real democracy. People who believe that segregation is wrong. People who are prepared to march on picket lines. I'm tired of people saying, what should I do? They mean what should I do about the Negro problem? What can I do for you?

There is nothing you can do for me. There is nothing you can do for Negroes. It must be done for you. One is not attempting to save 22 million people. One is attempting to save an entire country, and that means an entire civilization, and the price for that is high. The price for that is to understand oneself. The price for that, for example, is to recognize that most of us, White and Black, have arrived at a point where we do not know what to tell our children. Most of us have arrived at a point where we still believe and insist on an act on the principle, which is no longer valid, that such and such choice is the lesser of two evils, and that is no longer true. Gonorrhea is not preferable to syphilis.

[Val and Andrew both laugh]

Dr. Val: You know that, that was I think in 1969…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …clip, um, very much today, and I, I know our White friends and allies, our privileged friends and allies will be like wringing their hands like, what do I do? What do I do? And I really loved when James was like, it's not up to me at this point, you know? You have to want to do this for you more than whatever you value as the alternative. I don't, I don't have any more answers.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, I think the only thing that feels different from 1969 to today in that is that some portion of White America has figured out what to say to our kids, which is…

Dr. Val: Hmm

Andrew: …this isn't actually a problem. If anything, the problem is reverse racism. If anything, the problem is that something that somebody is teaching you makes you feel uncomfortable.

Dr. Val: Mmm.

Andrew: That what we need is safe spaces for White kids in our public education system. Because I think he's right. If you really look at it with, you know, clear eyes, we don't know what to say to how, how could we say anything to our kids? How could we possibly explain the state of the world to our kids? And that discomfort has, has led us to a point where we stick our heads in the sand and we say, no, we're not gonna look at that. We’re actually gonna turn away from that we're gonna make sure our kids never have to face that and never have to look at that either because it makes us uncomfortable and we're afraid it's gonna make them uncomfortable. So I think there's a large portion of the country that knows exactly what to say to their kids.

Dr. Val: It feels weird, honestly, this was not, I don't know why we didn't put this in our plan that… we did not put this in our plan, y'all.

Andrew: Nope.

Dr. Val: This was not in the plan. One thing that came up for me, you know, in the early hours of this was a reminder of how the physical and emotional toll, the first version of this, of his presidency went.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And, um, how stressed I was. And I, I found myself like feeling really tense with the kids, and I had to like tell them and my family, like, I'm gonna be up and down.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Because I, I don't, I don't know how to function normally in this kind of chaos. I remember early on in our current administration when I was able to like sleep…

Andrew: Hmmm

Dr. Val: …peacefully, and I remember marking that moment like, oh my gosh, I can like sleep again.

Andrew: You didn’t even realize how…

Dr. Val: I don't have to watch…

Andrew: much tension and stress. Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And so all of that, that, when you talk about the PTSD from 2016 that you hadn't processed, that was also part of my experience for four years. You know?

So the Harris campaign slogan, “We're not going back”, I've been thinking about that in a lot of different ways. But one thing that felt within my control, um, is that I don't have to respond in the same way that I responded, the first go round, like physically, emotionally. Unfortunately, like he's better prepared, but fortunately so are we, And so like, I, I journaled like how I showed up the, the first time and how I can do that differently. So one of the things that I did early on is I had zero boundaries with my media consumption around it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Like I would wake up, read the news, check Twitter, feel enraged, you know, not be able to function during the day.

Andrew: Before you’re even out of bed.

Dr. Val: Before I'm even outta bed.

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: You know, I can, I can, I. Do that differently this time around, um. The first time around gave birth to Clear the Air, which I am so grateful for. That came in December 30th, 2016 after I had a month, two months to kind of like just try to listen to what the next step was for me.

Andrew: Mm-Hmm

Dr. Val: And in that I took a significant amount of responsibility for helping people see the world differently. I don't feel the need to do that this time.

Andrew: Mm-Hmm

Dr. Val: Because I didn't realize until it was over, like how much I was holding that responsibility to like carry all of these people to deepen their critical consciousness to…

Andrew: Hmm

Dr. Val: …How much I was putting myself out there to, to try to build bridges. And again, I'll still be myself, but I think what I just cannot do this time is to make it my responsibility for people to see the light. I think the first go round I was like, oh, okay, maybe they just didn't know.

Andrew: We have some misunderstandings to clear up. Let me help with that.

Dr. Val: Right, right. Maybe they just didn't know, you know? And so that's fine. Once people know better, Andrew, they do better.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: That's what we believe. And so it felt like it was my job to kind of help them know better so that when we had the chance to do better the next time any of these things came up, we would choose to do better. And I'm sure many people did.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Right. So, I'm no longer owning, owning that responsibility that I took on. Like, Val can do this on…

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val: …her own. I don't, I don't feel the need to do that.

Andrew: There's something, hopeful and depressing in that all at once. Or like, like…

Dr. Val: Say more.

Andrew: …on the one hand…

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm

Andrew: …at, this time, eight years ago, there was no clear the air and a lot of people were activated in the wake of 2016…

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm

Andrew: …to come to organizations like Clear the Air, like Integrated Schools, Learn Together, Live Together out of DC launched right in the wake of, of the election in 2016.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: We don’t know what things will launch in the wake of this election. We don't know what…

Dr. Val: I hope things do.

Andrew: …new ideas will spring up and what new commitments people will make. And I'm assuming that you are not gonna be alone in feeling like I'm not doing all the work again. I'm not doing this. I'm not putting myself out there in the same way. I think that's gonna make the work harder to do. I don't blame you for it. I think you're right to do it. And the reality of that, makes it feel like it's, it's gonna be harder to do that work.

Dr. Val: Um, maybe. I think, at that time, um, lemme back up. Like, I knew I was, I was angry. And so I use that anger to fuel all of the efforts for good, right? Like, that's literally how I was able to like, keep going. I was just so mad…

Andrew: Fueled by rage.

Dr. Val: …all the time…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …fueled by rage. And I, I was really intentional about using it for good. And in that I sacrificed so much of my own humanity and my own needs. I had a very thick armor to, to get up and go back into the fight every day. At the same time I was doing Clear the Air, I was traveling the country, having these conversations face to face with educators all over the country. And so it took a lot. And when I finally calculated like, how much that took of me, like I just don't have that…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: … to give anymore in that way. I would prefer to keep some for myself, give some to my family.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: You know? Um, and I am not, I'm not wired to do nothing,

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: You know, but taking ownership of having to, to fix it, saying like, come to this place where,

Andrew: I will hold your hand.

Dr. Val: You know. Right…

Andrew: Walk you through this. Yeah.

Dr. Val: Right. I just, I, I just personally don't have the capacity to do that anymore.

Andrew: I, I wonder if there is like, rage is powerful, anger burns bright, but it also burns itself out.

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: And this feels like a little far off. I'm having, I'm having a bit of a hard time imagining myself into this place just yet, but I do think that potentially one of the lessons we can take from the last go around is to find the places where we can be fueled by love.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Exactly.

Andrew: Find the places that can be fueled by connection, where we can fueled…

Dr. Val: Exactly.

Andrew: …by community, where we can be fueled by hope. And, I've been thinking a lot about John Blake, um, his episode from, from last time. He talks about, you know, muscular hope and he talks about not a naive hope.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: I don't think that simply hoping for the world to be better is gonna get us there. But as we are thinking about ways to resist, as we were thinking about like doubling down on our commitment to public education, to the work of building up multiracial democracy, we have to do that in ways that are fueled by love, in ways that are fueled by community, in ways that are fueled through each other. Because anger, anger is powerful, but it burns out.

Dr. Val: That was literally the conclusion of my dissertation. So thank you for reading it. [Andrew laughs] But, but that's what I, that's what I learned. Like I, I couldn't sustain…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …you know, with that anger. My children will have graduated from the public school system in two years, both of them. And I'm grateful for that because I am terrified…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …of what's about to happen with our schools. My other thought with, we're not going back, is that there are probably gonna be multiple systems that will forever be shifted because of the adjustments we'll have to make as a result of what's gonna happen during this administration.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And so if, if we lose public schools as we know it, how is, does education remain a public good that's accessible...

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: …to everyone? An integrated, multiracial, high quality experience for everyone. If you know, things will change because of our need to shift, you know, to create systems of care and support and community for one another.

I mean, I, you know, we are award-winning, so I thought we were kind of important, but, just now in this moment, I was like, oh, we might be more important than ever because I'm not gonna lie, I'm gonna speak for all Black people right now. We looking at y'all like, I don't know. I don't know. Are you co-hosting the Integrated school podcast with Val? Because that's the only White man named Andrew I'm rocking with until further notice. I'm just saying, I'm just saying it's… what, what, what are we supposed to do?

Andrew: Right. Yeah,absolutely. The thought that I was sort of as I was trying to sleep on Tuesday night was sitting with the, you, you can certainly make the argument that we need the work of Integrated Schools now more than ever. Right. That like, and I still believe like Thurgood Marshall is right. Like unless we learn together, we'll never learn to live together. And, the only way kind of generationally that we, we push back on this mindset in our country that led to the election results is knowing each other better, by finding each other's shared humanity. But I certainly went to bed wondering if White people in this country will ever be ready to be partners in that work.

Dr. Val: I think like 46% of them.

Andrew: Maybe.

Dr. Val: Maybe.

Andrew: I would like to think so, but I feel like we about this a, not a, a fair amount, but like. It, it feels even more important to say in the wake of this, like the version of desegregation that we talk about here is not the desegregation that we have done in the past.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: The vision of truly integrated schools is not something we have achieved, is not something that we can point to as we used to do this, is not the version of desegregation that existed in the 80’s, is not the version of desegregation that was, giving Black kids access to White spaces at the cost of their humanity. At the cost of spirit murdering as Betina Love says. And I feel like in this moment it's really important to say like that that version of desegregation is not the goal. That is not what we are pushing for. That is not what we believe in. And, and I'm sure there is a large portion of Black population right now that is like, “Fuck your desegregation. Hell no. I don't want to be in proximity.” And I hear that and I am, I understand.

Dr. Val: I mean, real talk. We talk about building trust as repeated, like deposits of things that show that you are trustworthy.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Um, and we've talked about belonging and I think for Black Americans in particular, recognizing that at this point, this is our country of origin.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val: Like we don't have another one to reflect on. Remember, go back to like, this is our country. And to not feel like you belong in your country is deeply painful.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val: Um, because you worked your butt off to contribute to the country, to build the country. Literally died…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: …for the country in many different respects. Where you are brought to a country that you didn't ask to be brought to…

Andrew: Right,

Dr. Val: …like lived and died for it, for generations, have nowhere else to go. And only want to belong, and so you don't know what to do with that when folks repeatedly tell you like, you don't belong.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: And, and so it would make sense to create your own safe institutions, to like stay away as much as possible. Like at a…

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: So I understand if people are like, I'm good, I'm good. I am so good. I think I said on the show once, when I asked my grandmother, I was like, you know, you're born in the olden days, 90 years ago, how did you deal with White people? And she was like, I didn't see 'em that much.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: She was like, y'all have to deal, y'all have to deal with them a lot more than I had to deal with them growing up. Like they weren't part of my like, experience, you know? It's sad because I don't know how much stamina you have to keep building a bridge that someone else burns down.

Andrew: Hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Val: And so if White folks start building bridges and Black folks in particular burn 'em down a couple of times…

Andrew: Yeah, I get it.

Dr. Val: …like what? What do we expect?

Andrew: Right. I don't think it's controversial to say that many of the systems and structures in this country are set up to prioritize White people's comfort and building bridges only to have them burn down or only to have them fall down for structural reasons or, come to find that you built halfway and somebody was at a different point of the river and was not there to meet you on the other side can be uncomfortable. And I think we then have a tendency to just give up. Say, look, I tried, look at those four stones that I laid on that bridge. You didn't do anything, so I'm outta here.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: I'm giving up on the prospect of bridge building. And so I do think this is a moment for those of us White folks who care about racial justice, who care about a multiracial democracy to double down on our bridge building efforts.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm

Andrew: To work even harder, recognizing that we may be met with nobody on the other side, that we may be met with sabotage that may, may, may be met with, not, uh, open arms and a welcoming hug, but a lot of skepticism and that may be uncomfortable. And that's the moment to build even more, to get even further, to lean into the bridge building even more.

Dr. Val: We can do hard things.

Andrew: I think it's important that we sit in our feelings in this moment, that we process, that we try to feel the feelings because I do feel like a lot of the wake of 2016 was turned immediately to rage and activity and activism and all those things are really important. But I certainly, Tuesday night recognized a lot of unprocessed grief and trauma from that election eight years ago. I think it's important that we kind of sit in this space and feel all the feels that we talked about at the very beginning of this episode. But, as we start to think a little bit about the future, about kind of what comes next, it's clear that the attacks on public schools are gonna be extraordinary. You know, vouchers, public funding for religious education, book bans, rigid gender definitions in schools. Like, all of that is coming I think.

Dr. Val: Same.

Andrew: Our public education system, I think will become even more explicitly a White safe space, at the expense of students of color.

Dr. Val: Indeed.

Andrew: And because we shouldn't throw up our hands and say, if so, all is lost. I do think the decentralized nature of our education system gives people in local communities a lot more say and control than over something like, say healthcare policy or immigration policy. That there will definitely be places where people are, facing these national level policies that are harmful.

And I think we have the opportunity in our local communities to push back in a way that is actually potentially effective. And I think to do that requires, as we were talking about earlier, being fueled by love, being fueled by community, deepening our ties with the people that we are in communities with. Our schools, our school leaders, our teachers, our neighbors. Thinking about things like mutual aid. Even recognizing that some of these challenges may be coming, not, what is it… Timothy Snyder in, um, On Tyranny. The first rule of is not capitulating ahead of time. I don't remember exactly his words.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Obey in advance. We can't obey in advance. Right? We have to continue to speak up. We have to continue to fight for the education system we want and I think use the tools of the existing education system until they no longer work. And then think about how do we continue to educate each other in a, in a way that is, building the world that we want. You don't buy it?

Dr. Val: I, I buy it.

Andrew: That's fair. [Val laughing]

Dr. Val: No, I buy it. I think for Black women in particular, this one was hard.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: We have never shied away from doing what was required to save lives that aren't even our own. And so, I believe all those things are gonna happen. I believe we'll have a new generation of people who are activated. I think we will do those things that you listed because they are required of us. Because we want to survive. Because it is right.

I think what you listed, those are the right moves and I think we have to extend grace to folks who just need some time, some time to process that you can have, a Black and South Asian woman, triply qualified, who picked up the responsibility that was placed in her lap, ran with it for a little over a hundred days…

Andrew: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Val: …galvanized millions of people, presented a vision of like joy, moving forward, I have your back whether you vote for me or not, you have to give people time who just don't understand the alternative, to just have their moments.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And, Black women will, will do that because we have demonstrated ourselves to show up.

Andrew: Always.

Dr. Val: Over and over and over and over and over again. And if a Black woman is like, just not right now, like I need some space, please don't call me and ask me about organizing today. I am still grieving this just now. We'll be, we'll be back.

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: You just might need a minute because we care and I think we care more than anyone else about our own lives.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: So why wouldn't I fight for myself, you know? Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, like with the recognition that no one's free until everyone's free. That like your life is tied up with my life…

Dr. Val: That's it.

Andrew: …is tied up with everyone else’s life.

Dr. Val: That's it. That's it. I need you to get this right. 'cause I wanna be free, Andrew.

Andrew: I want to be free too. First of all, you for saying that, and when I'm, uh, texting you asking to organize, you can go ahead and tell me to F off. [laughing] And I’ll give you the space you need.

Dr. Val: We're like, no, no, no. I need three weeks. I need three weeks.

Andrew: And I think…

Dr. Val: And then I'll reach out to you.

Andrew: And, again, like not, not really wanting to look too deep into the abyss of what may come, but for sure, the risks, the danger is not going to be equally spread for everyone. I mean I do think…

Dr. Val: No.

Andrew: …our whole country is in danger. I do think that everyone is gonna be hurt by this administration.

Dr. Val: I agree.

Andrew: And not equally. And so those of us who are in less danger have an even greater responsibility to not acquiesce, to not keep our mouths shut in the hopes that somehow we will be spared the worst of it at the expense of those who will, who will take the brunt of it. And, that's not easy.

Dr. Val: No.

Andrew: But I think the more we focus on our shared humanity, the more we focus on the truth of the statement that no one is free unless everyone is free. That all of our liberation is tied up in each other, the easier it will be to, to, in those moments, make that choice to speak up, to show up, to build that bridge, to lay yet another brick in it because Whiteness always finds a way, the status quo always pushes us back towards racial hierarchy. And, and we're constantly trying to swim up that stream and that stream just got a big burst of water coming down it, and we'll have to swim harder and we will have to be even more committed to that. And that the easiest thing to do will be to let some things slide. Say, ah, like this is gonna cause a stink. If I really, if I bring this up, I don't know. It's just gonna make things harder. Maybe I will keep my mouth shut on this one. And I think that's, I think we can't,

Dr. Val: Can you do me a favor and the listeners a favor, clarify your ‘we’.

Andrew: White people.

Dr. Val: Hmm. Because it's like James Baldwin said, you can't do anything for me. You have to do it for you.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Whew. Well, if you got to the end of this episode, um…

Andrew: Sorry.

Dr. Val: We just having a moment. This is, this is real talk. This is real talk.

Andrew: Yep. Well listeners, thank you for sticking with us, real talk. I take great comfort from knowing you are all out there listening, sending us voice memos, sending us emails. And Val, I am as always, grateful to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.