S11E3: The First – One Family’s Desegregation Story

The First - One Family's Desegregation Story

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is ‘The First, One Family's Desegregation Story.” Val, we are going back to 1963, to Petersburg, Virginia today to tell a story that hasn't really been told much.

Val: Yeah, and I wanna call our guests today, living legends. Because the courage, the determination, the intentionality for Black folks to choose to send their children to all White schools in the 1960s as a method of integrating their communities is legendary behavior.

Andrew: Yeah. Shout out to Dr. Jen Geoffroy, um, who brought us this story, connected us with our guest today, Dr. Sandra Mitchell. Dr. Mitchell integrated her school in 1963 in the fourth grade, along with five other Black girls. And it's a story that didn't really generate a whole lot of press coverage at the time. That hasn't really been written about much since then. But Dr. Mitchell was willing to come on and tell us her story.

Val: Absolutely, and we believe that these stories should be told. So we wanna encourage listeners, these stories matter. So even if they feel like small family stories, these are the stories that we continue to want and need to hear so that people know that everyday decisions that we make will make a difference.

Andrew: Yeah. So, Dr. Mitchell, didn't have a whole lot of say in the matter. Her dad and mom made a choice to desegregate the schools in Petersburg, Virginia.

Val: That's right.

Andrew: And fortunately her dad is still with us, 92 years old, and Dr. Mitchell was able to record a conversation with him. And, she shared those recordings. So in the course of the conversation, you'll hear us play some of those clips as well. And Val, talk about living legend, 92 years old.

Val: That's right.

Andrew: He was a pastor at a church in Petersburg, Virginia, and still has that preacher's voice even at 92.

Val: Reverend Powell was super impressive. And may we all get to 92 and are able to work a room like Reverend Powell.

Andrew: For sure. Yeah. So very grateful that we've got those stories to share as well.

Val: So, I know you spent some time in his autobiography as well. Can you talk a little bit about Reverend Powell and tell us a little bit more of his story?

Andrew: Yes. So I had to dig deep and found From Morning till Evening, the autobiography of Grady W. Powell, Sr., which told Dr. Mitchell's father's story. Just a fascinating man who accomplished a great many things, was really heavily involved in civil rights from a young age, uh, sort of a family tradition, and really helped me certainly prepare for the conversation with Dr. Mitchell to understand her family's legacy, and part of what drove him to make this choice for desegregation at a time when, when not a lot of people were doing it.

Val: Yeah, I wanna emphasize the fact that it's often a family legacy. It is intergenerational work, as you've talked about many times before. Um, we both have parents, grandparents, ancestors who engaged in the same work. And so it feels like it's part of the family business. And I think that is one of the underlying things we'll learn from our interview. It was the expectation that this is how we're gonna show up.

Andrew: Yeah, despite it not being easy, it felt like the right thing to do.

Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: Yeah, we're fortunate to hear from Dr. Mitchell and her father about why they made that choice.

Val: That's right. I'm really looking forward to this conversation because it feels personal. It feels like I know these folks and the same story and um, I'm excited to dig in.

Andrew: Alright, let’s take a listen.

[Theme music]

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: I'm Sandra Powell Mitchell, I work for the University of Virginia. Taught for I think seven, six years at UVA, just in the principal preparation program. But before that, I spent 40 years in K-12 education in a place called Fauquier County. I stayed in the same school division for 40 years. I went from teacher, and when I left I was the Associate Superintendent for instruction there.

Andrew: It is amazing. You were teaching English, right?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm. I taught in, middle, well, they didn't call it middle school in those days, called the junior high. And I taught there for a couple years, and then I went to high school.

Andrew: And you're a whole family of educators, right? Your mother was a teacher and a university professor. Your aunts, great aunts and grandmother.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Matter fact, I have a picture of six great aunts that were in the, whatever was the Black newspaper in Richmond. They were all teachers at that time. So lots of educators in my family. And I think I've always wanted to be a teacher, although I didn't know it. My siblings, I, I'm the oldest of five. My mother told me, I always would sit them down and teach them. And then my parents had a lot of books and I would catalog all the books like it was a library. And I do remember that. You have stories, they tell you stories later in your life and you find out, oh, I did that. I guess that was a trait. So, uh, and I enjoyed teaching.

Dr. Val: Always a teacher. Always a teacher.

Andrew: Education was always in you, sort of the family business. But part of what probably led you into this career that has been focused on education and on teaching educators, was your own schooling experience. Take us back to elementary school. You started out at Westview Elementary School, which was an all Black elementary school. What memories do you have of Westview and what was that school like?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So this is second and third grade, I don't remember much about the schooling. I do remember my teachers, they happened to be members of my father's church. Mrs. Brown and Mrs. Dory. And so I remember them. I'll just tell you a story. My name is spelled S-A-N-D-R-A. It's pronounced Saundra. And one of my teachers told me my name was Sandra [pronounces it with a short a]. And I happened to tell my mother, and my mother went to my teacher's home…

Andrew: Oh wow.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: …to tell her what my name was.

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: I tell that story to my students, when we’re talking about equity and diversity and things, I have a case study about names. When a teacher wanted to name a child her name was Sarai, I believe it was, and she wanted to call her Sarah and the parent never corrected the teacher. And some of it has to do with that parent's power. And I talked about that this is a power thing, when you refuse to call somebody by the name that they wish to be called. At least you don't try. So I tell them this story that my mother had power.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Um, she was a first lady of a fairly large church, a professor, you know, all of that. She had no problem telling my teacher how my name should be pronounced. So that's really the only memory that's real prominent. I think it's because I've had to tell that story so often.

Andrew: But it was, it was overall, it was a good school. You felt like the teachers were good, the building, it was a relatively new building right?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Oh yeah. The school that I was in was new. It was, uh, in a fairly new subdivision of Petersburg, Virginia at that time. It was in the Black subdivision. They had built it for the Black students. Um, so, facilities were nice, but we never had new textbooks. We had used textbooks there. But, other than that, it was, it was a great school… I need to say, for me it was a great school. Because I would imagine other people's experiences might have been different, who didn't have some of the privileges that I did.

Andrew: Right, but there were strong Black teachers who were part of the community,

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm. Oh, absolutely. They were excellent.

Andrew: Well respected and regarded even if they occasionally needed a scolding about name pronunciation. But, um, but still, despite all of that, going into fourth grade, 1963, your parents decided to send you to the amazingly unsurprisingly named Stonewall Jackson Elementary School, all White elementary school at the time.

Let's talk a little bit about your dad, Reverend Grady Powell, Sr. Quite an accomplished man, 92 years old now, with very strong opinions as it seems like he's probably had for his whole life. He went to a Rosenwald school. And seemed to have always had a real respect for the power of words. For the power of language. You know, thought it was important that people expressed themselves concisely, and using language appropriately. Probably drilled that into you all from a young age.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Probably too much so. Language was very important in my family and my mother was an English teacher too, so subject, verb agreement, all of these things. One of the problems, however, is that people who do not speak standard English, is what my mother would call it, there's another prejudice in our world that if you don't speak standard English, therefore you are stupid

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: And it's not true. There has been some reciprocal kind of teaching with my father because he, you know, so and so doesn't speak standard English, but they have something to say…

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: …and something to add. So that's been a source of conversation.

Andrew: It's beautiful. The family job is teaching, but also learning. The fact that he is still, still all these years in, willing to learn. He was always interested in civil rights. I guess his father, your grandfather, was the first Black man to register to vote since reconstruction.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: In Brunswick County. Yeah.

Andrew: That's, that's amazing. And your dad rode in the White section of a bus across state lines at one point to try to, uh, test the laws.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah, they were testing the laws for the NAACP. How did you know that story? {Val laughs} Oh, the book. [very surprised]

Andrew: His autobiography.[Andrew and Val laugh]

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Um, yeah, they were testing laws, and he tells this funny story 'cause the guy, the old man that he was with, they got across to North Carolina and the guy said, “I guess we made it Reverend Grady!” Just loud, the whole bus could hear. [All start laughing]

Dr. Val: Oh my gosh.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So, just to tell you the kind of person he is. He is the first Black Baptist pastor in the country to ordain women deacons… in the country… in 1992. The church I go to right now don't, they don't have any women deacons. They don't believe in it.

Dr. Val: Wow.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So he was pretty radical in his day, spoke out about the church needed to welcome homosexuals in church in the 1970s. I remember my mother saying, “Really, Grady? Do you wanna go there?

Dr. Val: So there was really no way you weren't going to integrate a school. There's really no way.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: There was just no way.

Andrew: Yeah. It seems like it was going to happen one way or the other, his commitment to the cause ran deep. Um, and I just want to play a bit of that conversation that you had with your dad about that choice, you know, coming up on it. Why he chose to do it then, and how he went about it.

[clip]

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Okay, dad. We desegregated schools in the fall of 1963. Do you remember why that year you chose to do it because you came to Pittsburgh in 1961.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: Right.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So what made you do it in 1963?

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: Because I was a member of an organization in Richmond called RCAC, Richmond Citizens Advisory Committee.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And we had gone to court about integrating the public schools of Richmond.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: So, I was hoping we wouldn't have to go to court in Petersburg because they had been doing a lot of things in Petersburg, but there was no school that had ever been integrated, nor attempted to be integrated. And I thought that instead of going to an organization, I would go to John Mead, who was the superintendent. I knew him, and ask him about integrating the schools of Petersburg.

And so I was coming from Richmond, a meeting of the RCAC, and I stopped at his office and I went in and I told him that I had two daughters who were school age.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And I wanted to get them in school, but I said, “Mr. Mead, I'd like to do it without being a fuss.” And would he lead in opening the schools. And he was very kind and he said, “Reverend Powell you know, I have a school board I have to present everything to.” The school board was all White.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And he said, “if I take this to them, I'm just so afraid it will mess up a plan that I have.” And I said, “You have a plan?” He said, “Yes. I have already asked the school board if they would make a playground at Blandford Elementary School. And they have decided to do that.”

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Now, Blandford Elementary School was Black.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: Blandford was Black. And he said that would give a playground for the colored children in Blandford. And he was asking whether he wanted to have a swimming pool and a recreation center in the west end for colored children.

And I said, “Well, that's wonderful.” I said, "You know, I didn't know anything about this.” And he said, “But I haven't talked with them about the integration of schools. And I'm so afraid if I do, they would not appropriate the money to have either one of these playgrounds to come into being.” I said, “Oh, that would be terrible.”

And he said, “But the time will come when I want to integrate the schools.” I said, “Oh, Mr. Mead, could you guarantee me that you would integrate the schools and give me a time? He said, “You know, Reverend, I think a lot of you, and you know, I'm going to tell you the truth.” He said, “I can't give you a time because I don't know how the school board would take it.”

And I said, “Well, Mr. Mead, if you can't give me a time, I will tell you the truth. You know, I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm either going to put my children in school this September, or I'm going to court.” I said, “You see Mr. Mead, I have come here with certain expectations of myself.” And he said, “Alright.” And he gave me the forms.

I hated it so much.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: Because I was nervous about putting my children in a school where they could be so ugly to them. But I did it and my wife was willing and I saw Fauntleroy, and I mentioned it to him. And he said, I will go for my three girls.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And he mentioned it to John…

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Cole.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: …Cole. And he said he would go. And those are the first people. That's how the first integration started.

[end clip]

Andrew: Yeah, just incredible how, uh, with it, he is at 92. How sharp, how vivid all those memories are.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: And you both have uh, some pretty clear memories of that first day of school back in 1963, and let's just play a clip of your dad talking about that.

[clip]

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Do you remember the first day of school because I think I remember people lining up the walk. But I don't know that that's in my imagination.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: Yeah, exactly.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Or is that, was that true?

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: That was true. It's interesting, let me tell you about that morning.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Okay.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: The Fauntleroy Girls, and the Cole girl came to my house.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And I took those children in my car the first day. You know, I'm nervous. But I didn't, I didn't show it. I remember driving down Dunlop Street, going up Wilcox Street, turning right, going down West Street. And I parked the car up on that street, and you girls got out and I felt like a duck with all the you behind me and there was a bank of adults from the steps to the streets on both sides. And I've gotta take them, just little girls. I am very, very under tension. And as I was walking, I made about four or five steps, a man came out from the crowd and said, “Reverend Powell.” I said, “Yes.” I didn't know what to do. He said, “I just want to say quietly…” And he said, “I'm glad what you’re doing.” The only thing I could say, I said, “Thank you.” And Miss Coghill …

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Uh huh, the principal.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: …was standing at the steps. And she came out of the door when she saw me turn.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And she said, “Good morning Reverend Powell. Come on, I'll take them in.” I really wanted to go in with you children.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: But I didn't work there. So I said, thank you, thank you Ms.Coghill. She said - oh, we’re expecting them?

[end clip]

Andrew: So you did it. The six of you get into the school largely without incident. What was it like once you, once you got in the building?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah um, I, I imagine this was deliberate, but there were two of us who were in fourth grade, my friend Nikki, and I, and we were not put in the same class, which right now I know that was not a nice idea.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: It would've been perfect if we were together. But we were separated and I kept thinking, was... did they separate us because they thought we would cause problems or something together? I don't know, but they did. So, I remember feeling alone. I do remember feeling lost, walking into what seemed to be a huge cafeteria and not knowing where to sit. I remember that feeling. And that's a normal feeling when you, any of us walk into a place where we know nobody.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: And then I have other disparate little vignettes of memories, um, I befriended some girls. We became school friends, I guess, you know, and I guess we played together, talked together, that kind of thing. And I remember that there was a conversation about visiting each other over the weekend, and I think there was some, okay, we'll do this. And then I remember one of them coming to say I couldn't come…

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: …to their house. I do. And I remember that. I don't know how I felt, but I must not have felt pretty good because here it is, this many, over 60 some years later and I remember that.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Another incident I remember, we were studying Virginia history, and we were at chapter six, and it was about slavery. And I told my mother I didn't wanna go to school the next day. I remember that vividly, but I didn't tell her why. I just remember, uh, a sense of being, either embarrassed or people would look at me or that kind of thing. And it did happen. They did. I… telling my mother I didn't wanna go to school did not work. I went.

Andrew: Right, right. [everyone laughs softly]

Dr. Val: Never works. Never works.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So I, I just remember it, it was painful. I just remember it being painful. And, right now, as I listen to some of the criticisms of lessons about equity or other things in classrooms, even today. And there's conversation that you're making the White kids feel bad about learning about some of these hard things, some reactions to that is, well, our kids have always felt bad. But I just understand, you know, there is some kind of a disruption about that when you, you feel that way. And it really has to do with the way the teacher treats it. The teacher kind of treated me like I just wasn't there. The particular teacher that I had that year, this is the fourth grade year, was not a particularly good teacher in her handling of discipline. I just, just remember there was not a lot of control. I just never felt I was safe with her.

Andrew: Hmm. Hmm

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Not the kids. Nobody hit me. They said things, you know, they called me names, things like that. But that was quiet. It wasn't any kind of disruption or disruptive kind of thing. But I never really felt safe with her, that she was a protector of me. I just remember that very vividly.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: And then questioning, they said that the slaves were happy because they were given clothes and food. And I remember having some kind of cognitive dissonance about that. This can't be right. You know…

Dr. Val: So that, that time where you said, “Mom, I don't wanna go to school,” and you know, it didn't work, but how often did you have conversations with your parents about what you were experiencing at your new school and what were they like?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: I, I don't remember any.

Andrew: Hmm. And you asked your dad about that. So, uh, let's take a listen to his recollections of the conversations you all had.

[clip]

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So I just wanna know what was your feeling as best you can recall? Of sending us to school and because the, what is interesting to me is that the civil rights movement, as far as schools are concerned, it will, it was an adult endeavor, but people like Ruby Bridges and all of us, we were on the front line of having to execute it. So what, what, how did you feel? Did you check on us to see if we were happy or we were having any problems?

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: No, I didn't talk that much to you.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: I didn't. I simply told you that you were going to be going to school with White children.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And you could have reflected on what was going on the Little Rock nine and people spit on them. And they shouted after them and Eisenhower had to bring out the National Guard to Little Rock. I was afraid. I was so relieved when John Mead said to me, we won't have that.

But when I got out of the car and saw all of these White people…

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: …it made me very tense. Because I guess reflecting in my mind that someone could start fighting, fighting me, or fighting my children. And I, I thought, I wouldn't even tell Birdie this, I thought, Lord, if my children got up there and got killed, I couldn't ever forgive myself.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm, Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: So in a time that I should have felt so bold, I felt, Lord, am I doing the right thing?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: These are my children.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And that's a difference in going to a meeting and talking about integrating Standard Drug Store. That's what RCAC had done.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: That was very different than school because it was an adult blessing. And so it was just a great mixture of thought. So I thought about that many times. I've had mixed feelings about that. Did I do the right thing? And as I reflect back on it, thank God I did, I think. I did the right thing.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: And put my children on the line. So I couldn't just put myself on the line.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

[clip ends]

Andrew: So it's such a, such a powerful story in that, that feeling of tension of right. Like, I need to be so committed to this movement, that I'm willing to not just put myself on the line, but, but my kids on the line. It's yeah, it's, it's really incredible. So it sounds like your recollection that there weren't a lot of conversations was correct, but, it wasn't like he wasn't involved or engaged, or around. Is that right?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah. What I did learn, and I kind of knew this, my dad was there all the time.

Dr. Val: Mmmm.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Because he was a minister, his schedule was his own, and he was a busy pastor, but he took us all to school. And he became the president of the PTA.

Andrew: Wild.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: You know, he just, he inserted himself. So it could be that he knew how we were, I don't know, this is it that if they brought it up, it would bother us.

You know how if you mention something to a child, like…

Dr. Val: How's your foot?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: yeah…

Dr. Val: Oh,

Andrew: Now that you mention it. [laughter]

Dr. Val: Yeah. Right.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Are they bothering you? And it may have been a kind of the way they, my parents, parented. They were not helicopter kinds of parents. So I wish I did have some more colorful questions about the deep conversations we had. I just don't remember any.

Andrew: So definitely not helicopter parents, but it's not like your dad was absent. He was certainly deeply involved in the community, really committed to getting involved. He talks about just showing up at the Petersburg Ministerial Union meeting, which was a gathering of all the White faith leaders from the town that he saw was happening, and he just walked in, um, said like, Hey, I'm just gonna show up. And then, you know, he had a personal relationship with the superintendent so he could go have this conversation that it sounds like was a respectful and effective conversation, even if they didn't necessarily start out seeing eye to eye.

Talk a little bit about that like the power of relationships of being in community, of getting to know people. I mean he's the pastor of a church in town, he's obviously gonna get invested in the community, but that role of, you know, sort of investment in relationships and community.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah. I think that when you're going to do something that's radical and difficult, you do have to form some relationships with people. And trust is a function of lots of things, of competence and respect and empathy. And it's also a function of time. You know, you come to trust people over time when you realize they're not gonna let you down and their word is bond and trust comes along with that.

So, and I'm not, I don't know that there was a real trust 'cause I don't think he had been there long enough with Mr. Mead. But I think that there was a level of respect and some of it was the way my father spoke.

The other thing about change and when you're doing things like this is really knowing that sweet spot between push hard, but also know the degree to which you will push.

Andrew: Hmmm.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: One thing I never asked my father, because I don't know that he would have done this, why didn't you advocate for Nikki and for me to be in the same classroom? That's one thing I know would've been better for both of us. It either never occurred to him or it could be he had pushed just hard enough. You know what I mean? You know, okay, I'm gonna push to get my kids in the door. I'm not going to push to tell you what to do with them once they get there. I mean, you have to keep 'em safe, of course. So I think a level of doing this kind of work has to also do with you push…

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: …but you have to know the degree to which to push.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Studying the history, it always felt very strategic, to your point around understanding the landscape and the people and the culture enough to know the right time to take the next step so that we're not losing ground.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Val: And I think it takes all types of people for the social change, right? You're gonna have folks who are like, let's just…

Andrew: Burn it all down right now!

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Right.

Dr. Val: And I think you need that in addition to needing people who are, let's figure out strategically how to get the progress that we want so that it is lasting and that it's not just a flash in the pan.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah. So you had to learn how to push hard 'cause that was the goal, but how to do it so that it would be successful. So sometimes you have to be pragmatic. So I have spent my retirement years going through the things I regretted that I didn't go fast enough.

Andrew: Mm-Hmm,

Dr. Val: Oh, no, no. You're not the only one running this race. You're not the only one.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah, I know, I know. So I, I think about, oh, I should have, oh, I should have, you know, and then there's some things I'm happy the way they turned out,

Andrew: Yeah, it's like, like a constant tension because you can imagine the world that we want and we're a long ways from it. And so you're like, well, we gotta go as fast as possible to get there as soon as possible. And why should we slow down the goals for that because there are people who don't want it. Those people are on the wrong side of history, so like, let's just go and do it. But, we know that there is an inevitable backlash whenever racial progress is made. And we've seen that throughout the history of the country. And so, there's understandable tension amongst good intentioned people who, who want to go faster, who think that the only reasonable way is to go slower. And I don't know. That's, that's, that's a tricky one.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah. You're so right. You need both people. Those who push like this and then those who say, let's, so we get this because I, I was just watching all of the, rejection right now of diversity, equity, and inclusion and all of that. You know that, that's going on. And it's occurring to me of late that the, those who are really pushing in that, and I was really a part of a lot of that, that now that we're in a backlash, I do believe that some of the work that was done, you can't unhear some of that stuff. You can't unhear that there is something called microaggressions and you can't unhear the fact that it is better if we walk this together. You can't unhear that stuff.

So even though we're in a backlash moment, I do believe we are right now, I think we made strides. Ao I don't call it kind of backlash, I kind of call it pause lash or something. I don't know what it…

Dr. Val: You're, you're exactly right. And we'll get that trademarked, whatever you, whatever you come up with, let us know and we will get that trademarked for you because you're right. Because you can't put it away again. It's here.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah, once you learn something, once you learn something and it's been confirmed with you…

Andrew: It's still there. Yeah. It's still in the consciousness. It's still in the public discourse. And I think the backlash is about that discomfort that comes. You know, as a White man, looking back at ways that I have committed microaggressions before I knew that microaggressions were a thing, the initial reaction is like, ooh, that doesn't feel good. I wanna not talk about this, or I wanna reject it, or I wanna pretend that this is not a thing.

But I do think without pushing really hard, the status quo will always reassert itself. White supremacy will always find a way to say, alright, you can have this little bit, maybe we've changed the language, maybe we've changed the mechanisms, but we're gonna revert to this process of a racial hierarchy, this process of White supremacy, and that's gonna be the status quo. And so where people aren't constantly pushing those boundaries, as Dr. King said, “The moral arc of the universe is long, but bends towards justice.” But it doesn't bend by itself. It requires people to bend it towards justice.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Exactly, and I think we all have to be listening too, because even the backlash can be helpful to learn some things from.

Dr. Val: You know, the expectation was you kind of did the thing. Because as a family, we decided that you're doing the thing and this is what it means to be a part of the movement. And there may be some prep, but don't wanna prep you too much because we don't want you to be overly worried about it. So I'm curious what types of skills were required of you to show up every day in that school? Like, what were you thinking? Were you thinking , I have to do this for my family, I have to do this for my community?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm. I think it's just, this is what my parents told me I'm doing. And it was school. I wanted to belong, but I, it never occurred to me to say, I wanna go back. I remember my friends at church, like my Black friends who chose not to go, kind of having conversations. One of my really, really good friends, I wanted to know why she didn't wanna go 'cause she lived closer to the school than we did. And she told me that her mother said that all White people had lice, and so she wasn't going. I'll never forget that.

Dr. Val: Oh no.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: I won't really, I just, [laughing] you know, so I think we all make up these things, you know. I believe now that what that experience did was to give me a kind of resilience.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: About being the only one or an other. I just learned how to navigate those kinds of spaces.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Thank you.

Andrew: And that's been part of your career since, I mean, since you started teaching. It sounds like you've always been on the lookout for anybody who feels othered, had been interested in, creating spaces in your classrooms and then helping to train teachers and school administrators and other adults on, how do we avoid situations where people feel like they are the other or cast out?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah and I probably had to come to my own in that as a teacher. I was a real advocate for, um, any kid who seems smaller than the others. I have a real affinity for kids who stutter, because it's so hard for them to express what their voices are. I just have this, they, every time I think about it, it makes me cry. And I don't know that that experience had anything to do with it, or I'm hoping it's just the person that I am, you know, cause I'm a person of faith and all that, you know, that goes with that. So, um…

Dr. Val: I'm just curious about how you think your life would've been different had you stayed at your all Black school.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: You mean if my father had made different choices.

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: Right. It wasn't your choice.

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So I can't even see him being a different person. I will say this, I have watched some of my nieces and nephews and others who have stayed in spaces where everybody is like them and they have had some problems…

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: …coming into spaces when they've had to work with people who are different.

Dr. Val: Mmmm.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: One of my, just dearest, dearest nephews had this great job at a drugstore. And, somehow, he just kept feeling he was not up to the challenge and he was. But in his head, I think the world had taught him that he could not be as good as this other world that was there. So, in answer to your question, I do wonder, would it have narrowed my scope about what I could do and what I couldn't do? I don't know.

But others tell me, like my husband, I married someone who was from Petersburg. He was a part of the desegregation thing a few years later. He says today that he believed the Black teachers took better care of him. That he was kind of demeaned a bit in his classes.

Dr. Val: Yep.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So when you ask, would it have been better? I don't know.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: There are many people who believe that the Black community lost something from in segregated schools. But, um, I, I don't know. I just think the process of desegregation, integration did not value what the Black community could bring to the experience. So they were summarily moved out. No one ever thought to bring the Black teachers to Stonewall Jackson Elementary School, which would've been much better for me.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Based on your work as a leader of principals and administrators, what do you think the impact of bringing Black educators in that space, along with Black students, what do you think integrating Black teachers would've done for true integration, during that time?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Everything. [small laughter]

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: I can't, I just cannot tell you. I have a, um, she calls me her mother and I call her my heart daughter or something, but she lives in Raleigh, North Carolina. Right now she's in her fifties, so this is a long time. She tells people I was her teacher, but I never taught her.

But here's the story she told at my retirement. She saw me standing in front of my classroom and she said, I saw a person who looked like me. And I remember that day she came up to me and introduced herself. And we became close through the years. And, I mean, she texted me just this morning, you know, I was there to see her new baby, all of these other kinds of things because she saw somebody who looked like her.

Andrew: She was never in your class. You never were actually technically her teacher, but just that power of you being in the same building was enough.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: In the building. So I think it makes such a big difference, I think having diversity within the teaching ranks, and I'm just not talking about Black teachers, but all kinds of differences.

All of that is so important for kids to see and it, and we're not trying to twist their minds or change them in any way. That's just not it. It's just this exposure to difference is really what the world is about and I believe kids have a hard time making it if they cannot navigate difference. Because difference and change is the place where we can stumble in life. Something jars you and just, this is not the way my life was supposed to go, or something like that. And, getting to know different people is a part of that.

Andrew: Yeah, that's so, that's so beautifully said. Because, I think those are also the moments, with possibility for growth, with possibility for learning new things, with possibility for expanding your horizons, if you can embrace the change, embrace the difference, embrace the unexpected that comes along, those are the places where you actually grow the most, where your worldview broadens the most.

And that's true for all kids, right? All kids need experience with difference. White kids need it, Black kids need it, Brown kids need it, you know, L-G-B-T-Q-I-A, disabled, like everybody needs that exposure to difference in order to broaden the people who we think of as ‘we’, the people who we think of as being part of our community.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Mm-Hmm. Because we become desensitized and then our empathy decreases when we believe that this experience is kind of an ‘other’, and it really doesn't affect me. I mean, I can't carry the weight of the world, but I because they're not here and I can't see them and all that, I need to care about them. And it's a natural human thing first to have our blind spots about people. It is a natural thing also to care more about those who are in our circle versus those who are outside of our circle. But we can't let that drive the way we treat other people. What we don't do in our world is we stop at the blind spot. We stop at our prejudice. We stop. All of us have it.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: But we stop and, and we don't go further. You have to act against your own biases. You have to act against your own feelings and my experience had something to do with that.

Andrew: Oh yeah, for sure. For sure. And I think, like, yeah, like you said, you can't get caught up in feeling bad about having those thoughts because I think that's where the walls go up. You know? Particularly, I think for White folks even who care about social justice, who want a more racially just world. If we get lost in feelings of guilt, if we get lost in feelings of, oh my God, I just had this thought, uh, that's a terrible thought to have, I'm just gonna shut down because I don't want to address the fact that I just had that thought. Then there's no possibility to move forward.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Right. Or if you have the thought, you think, oh, I had that thought and I'm a bad person and therefore I'm just a bad person, and okay, I'm just gonna be a bad person. I'm gonna operate in all the bad circles and I'm gonna vote for all the bad people because they're all bad like me. [blows a raspberry] Yes, we, we, we all have this, this little evil thing that wants to other people. But you don't have to act upon that.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: You just have to try a little bit harder.

Andrew: Right and how worthwhile that effort is because, if you do, you end up with a more diverse teaching staff. You end up with, you know, your kids in more diverse spaces where they have the opportunity to expand their horizons, to see the world in a bigger, bigger way.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Right. The research really shows that when children are surrounded by differences, the education, the learning is better. Period.

Andrew: For everybody.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Yeah. You, you, you got some fires to go through.

Dr. Val: Yeah, and I think those fires are part of what makes it better because you have learned how to go through those fires to address your biases, to move past them, to see more, to expand your horizons. Like all of that feels worth it. At least for Andrew and I and certainly our, our, our young people.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: That's good.

Andrew: I saw you quoted somewhere you used to tell your students, when you were, you know, teaching English that life makes no sense. It's kind of messy. The reasons we have story in literature is it helps us take this messy life and put it in an order so we can understand it. And I think that the story of you and the five other Black girls integrating Petersburg schools is not a story that has been told. In part because of the ways that your dad and the superintendent tried to keep it low key to not make a lot of drama out of it.

And yet it was an important piece of the history of the country, a history of racial progress in this country. Not always easy, two steps forward, one step back, pause-lash along the way. And yet it is an important story that I think helps, certainly, helps me make sense out of kind of our messy country, our messy history, the messy ways that we have gone about racial justice in this country.

And, I'm just wondering, as you look back on all the choices that your parents made for you, the choices that you've made, the ways that you have been shaped by that, looking ahead, you're now mostly retired, have kind of paid your dues and are handing off to the next generation of people thinking about this work. What do you hope that we will take from, from your story? What do you hope that the stories that get told, you know, 50 or 60 years from now, in what ways will they be different because of telling your own story here?

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Hmm. That's a big question. You know, I have wondered about the six of us who went, did, did that experience propel us to be the women that we are.

I'm the educator. Nikki is an accountant. She went to Duke. All the others are lawyers, including my sister, I mean, and successful ones. Did that have anything to do? Or, were we selected for this project because we were a certain kind of student? You know, we were all good students and I've read that sometimes in these efforts to desegregate schools, often the people that they push forward are those that are kind of like the [air quotes] “good ones”, you know?

And, one thing that is concerning me is that throughout my career, I got along very well and, you know, navigated these spaces 'cause I kind of had learned the ways to do that. But I have, I've walked in on colleagues, who would be talking about a Black child or some, somebody like that. And I would say, what are you talking about? And they would tell I was not happy. Well, it's not about people like you. You know, it's not you.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: And I said, but that child is me. So we talk about groups of people we have to be open to the diversity within groups as well. There are those who are accepted, those who are not accepted.

And I think, the other thing, is that I am convinced, that diversity is good for all of us.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: It's, it is good for my, my White brothers and sisters, my Jewish brothers and sisters, my Asian brothers and sisters, the Black brothers. We, we will do better in our lives, we will be better emotionally, we will learn to survive, all other things if we can learn to navigate spaces where there is difference.

Andrew: That's beautiful. So grateful for you being willing to come and tell your story and share with us, and it's an important piece and has not been told. Thanks for coming on.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Well, thanks for all you do. I, I just didn't even know this was a thing. I mean, honestly…

Andrew: Yeah,

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: …and I'm just so glad as parents that you have taken this on because it's the only way anything's gonna happen. It's gotta, it starts with you.

Dr. Val: Starts with all of us. That's right. Thank you, Dr. Mitchell.

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: Well, thank you for having me.

[Theme music]

Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Val: So, immediately as I am listening to this father/ daughter duo, the first thing that came up for me was this framework around cultural wealth, and it was developed by Dr. TJ Yosso, and Dr. Yosso talks about community cultural wealth and how we leverage it. Right? And so what I recognized in the moves that Reverend Powell and his wife made in making this decision about how we desegregated schools, they used all of the community capital that they established.

Andrew: Mmmm.

Val: Right? All of the relationships that they had established. And so I was really captivated by his first approach, like going to superintendent and saying… Hey…

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I'd like to have this done. You know. You know, we know each other. We're in the community together. Let us figure out how to do this. And he probably wasn't surprised by the response. Like, eh, you know, I don't really know. I'm trying to get a playground.

Andrew: Gimme time. Gimme time. Gimme time. Don't you want a playground? Right.

Val: Right. And Reverend Powell decided, hey, I'm, I'm moving forward with this, whether or not…

Andrew: Right.

Val: …you agree to this, this is what's gonna happen for my family. And it was no doubt there had been many conversations that Reverend Powell had with community members about how we get this done. And so it was never a decision that was made haphazardly.

Andrew: Right.

Val: It was probably years in the making then there had to be some decisions that were made by members of the community to say, we are buying into this as well. Right.

Andrew: Right.

Val: One thing that he said that gave me goosebumps is he said, this is very different from going to a meeting.

Andrew: Right.

Val: Like putting my children on the line is very different from just attending a meeting, right? And so…

Andrew: Absolutely.

Val: …that is not done without lots of strategy, lots of like building up that cultural capital. Lots of people trusting you to lead them in this way. And, I think that emphasized to me like the power of the people, right? Like as a community we have power and it might look different from the ways in which power is demonstrated in other areas, but our community has power and we can make change happen. And it wasn't because the superintendent or the White community in Petersburg, Virginia was okay with it. It really was, we're gonna use our to make this happen regardless if we get the support from the majority in the community.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean being the pastor of a large Black church in town gives him a certain amount of cultural capital. He comes in with a degree of education and she talks about his focus on the power of language and speaking, quote unquote, standard English.

So he was able to present himself to the superintendent in a way that bought him some credibility such that when the superintendent said, you know, will you wait? And he said, no, actually I'm doing this. The superintendent knew that he wasn't messing around. Right. Knew right away that he couldn't keep pushing this off any longer.

And, he talked about the power that the superintendent had to be able to call the chief of police to be able to call the editor in the newspaper and that power is real. And that's certainly not power that was available to Reverend Powell and, and his family, but there was that real power in the community. And then the trust, like you said, you know, like he, he said he felt like a, like a duck with his little ducklings the first day of school.

Val: I know. Yeah.

Andrew: Those other families trusted him. You know, you think about the worry that he had, at least he's standing there with the kids. Those other families trusted him enough to take those kids under his wing, so to speak, and, and walk them into the school that first day, not really knowing what was gonna happen.

And yeah, I think that speaks to the value that he placed on community, the value that he placed on relationships, the value that he placed on building and earning that trust and, and treating that seriously.

Val: Absolutely. And it wasn't that it wasn't scary, right? And so…

Andrew: Right.

Val: …we'll see the painting of Ruby Bridges and we see her back up straight and her head’s held up high.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And the other word that came up for me throughout the interview was dignity. There was so much dignity…

Andrew: Mmmm.

Val: …associated with this effort. Even though there was fear there, even though there were nerves there, even though the parents and the caregivers didn't necessarily have the conversations with the young people, they taught them a sense of dignity in going in this space.

And could imagine like, especially with the duckling analogy, he had his head up high, and I'm sure all of those young people were following in line exactly like the same way to say like…

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: …we can do this. We are prepared for this. I just imagine like these young people with their heads held high following one of the fathers in the community in such a sense of dignity that even though this is difficult, even though I'm afraid, even though I'm nervous, even though I'm worried every single day that my kid is in this school and I'm afraid that violence…

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: … will be enacted upon them, this is still absolutely worth it. Not only for my dignity today, but for the dignity of my children and our collective dignity.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's something powerful in the leading by example. Which speaks to the, this idea, like you mentioned, of, of the difference between going to a meeting and talking about integrating versus actually, putting yourself and your, your family on the line. He said in that time that I should have felt so bold. I felt, Lord, am I doing the right thing?

Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: You know, it is this bold choice. And the outward impression of it was bold enough that the superintendent knew he wasn't kidding, knew that he was gonna actually do this and that was what he was presenting. But inside, he is still feeling this, Lord, is this the right thing? Is this actually what I, what I should be doing?

Val: Many of the parents who made those decisions for their children have passed on. And so that’s why I think this is such a gift to hear from a parent who made this decision for their child. So like, I don't have my grandfather here anymore, so I can't ask him like, what did you feel when you were making this decision?

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And so, to hear his voice and to say like, I questioned whether or not this is the right thing, and to know that we are still making these same kind of choices. Like, is this the right thing…

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: …to put my kid in this school? In Reverend Powell and Dr. Mitchell's case, it wasn't a selfish decision, like, are they gonna get the best resources?

Andrew: Right.

Val: And I think that's kind of where we find ourselves positioned. You know, in this day and time, like will they have the best resources? It was really about what is the best for our collective community, and it wasn't just about Black and Brown people in that community. It was really about how do we create a world in which we want to live and that I, I just, I can't thank him enough for making that very difficult decision.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And then sharing his feelings about it with us.

Andrew: And then Dr. Mitchell being willing to tell her side of it, and it's complex, right? There is nuance in all of this. You know, you asked her like, would her life have been better had he not made that choice? And, and she doesn't know, right? Like it, it is, it is complicated. There were things that she got from that gave her a sense of resilience, that gave her an exposure to the world that broadened her horizons that are really important. And you know, like her husband said, she probably missed out on Black teachers that really cared for her and really nurtured her. And she probably missed out on some of the community things. It was not an unequivocal good.

You know, I think her whole story really pushes back on the kind of stereotypical version of desegregation stories we often hear, right? It was not about access to a better school. It was not about access to better teachers. It was not about getting out of the poor rundown, terrible Black school in order to get a good education. It was about doing what was right for her community, what was right for the country.

And it wasn't unequivocally good either, right? There were challenges that came with it. There was friends who she couldn't have play dates with. Which she still, I mean, I, from both of them, just like the, the visceral feelings that are still here, you know, whatever, 60 years later was just so evident in, in hearing both of them tell these stories that, that these things that happened so far in the back in the past are still so with them, not just intellectually, but also emotionally. So with them in their hearts, because it was a lot. It was challenging. It was scary.

Val: One thing that stood out to me was when she mentioned that she never felt safe with her teacher.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Right. Not that she experienced abuse from students, but she also didn't feel safe there. She didn't feel like her teacher would protect her. So, as an educator through and through like, thinking about our own power to make children feel safe in school. Especially when they are the only one, especially when they're doing something brave or courageous, like being their authentic selves, how big of a responsibility it is to make sure that they feel safe, that they have an ally in the classroom.

Andrew: Right.

Val: You know, I have said in the past, especially with teachers, in these instances, you are the literal adult in the room. And so this should be your burden.

Andrew: Right.

Val: And it should not be placed on a fourth grader who was doing what her family decided that she and her sister would have to do, part of their, their contribution. That feeling safe I think is really important because I think what frustrates me, Andrew, if I, if I can be honest, when we, um, when we are encouraging our White and privileged parents to go on a tour, check out another school, go to your neighborhood school… I think there is an assumption that Black and Brown folks haven't felt nervous or afraid or whether or not they're making the right decision…

Andrew: Hmmm.

Val: … or that they're, um, they might be sacrificing their children…

Andrew: Mm-Hmm.

Val: …for a greater good. And what I wanna lovingly tell people is no, we've been here, right? We have met you halfway on the bridge. You know?

Andrew: Right.

Val: Just meet us halfway on the bridge, right? Like, we can both make movements toward each other in this effort, right? One particular group of people should not be carrying the burden because another one feels like this is too scary, uncomfortable, makes me too nervous. What about my children and their safety? Well, I also care about my children's safety. I’m also nervous that they're getting the right thing. Right?

Andrew: Right.

Val: And there's little evidence that a White child is in any more danger in a Black school today than a Black kid in a predominantly White school desegregating it in the 1960s.

Andrew: Oh, I, I would say there's, I would say there's lots of evidence that that White kid is far better off, right? There is no White kid at, at a school whose teachers are spitting on them. There is no White kid at an all Black school who's, who you know, is getting Coke bottles thrown at them by the community on their way into the school. For sure, that White kid in an all Black school is in a far better position than, than even, Dr. Mitchell was as a fourth grader going into her school where there was very little drama. You're 100% right. Black folks have come far further than half of the bridge, right?

And it's understandable, right? Like it's your kids, it's terrifying to think about doing something with them that is, you know, counter-cultural, that is not the norm, that feels like it is going against all the messaging you get about what it means to be a good parent. But like that level of fear, that level of concern pales in comparison to what Reverend Powell was feeling walking his little ducklings into school that day. Not knowing what that man who stepped outta the crowd was gonna say or was, was gonna do.

Val: Thank you, Andrew. I'm glad we’re friends.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Me too. You know there was so much struggle in their story. It took so much courage. Like you said, when we started, they are living legends. And I know, Dr. Mitchell was wondering about the costs and the benefits that went along with it. But I think, you know, with sort of a generational lens, I just, I take so much hope from their story.

You know, you talked about Dr. Mitchell not feeling safe, right? Like she said, I never felt like my teacher was a protector of me, and that was hard for her. Obviously, you know, she's still sitting with that all these years later, and yet what she was able to do with that was channel that into a career that spanned 40 years of being the protector for other kids, right? Of finding kids even who never were in her class, but just saw her in the building and felt protected by her and felt like they belonged. And she was always on the lookout for the small kid, the stutterer, the kids who didn't feel like they had a place and making them belong. And what a gift that was to countless, countless students who, you know, I mean, she knows a couple of them. She was just texting with one of those kids, the morning that we talked to her, but also all the other kids who she didn't even know that she played that role for, and that is the generational impact of this very brave decision that her dad made and her mom made back in 1963, that was not easy, that had real costs to it, but the impact of it, left her with this beautiful way of viewing her experience and the things that had taught her.

And I, I wanna just play this tiny clip that, that we didn't get to use in the actual episode of one of her conversations with her dad. Because I just think it's, it really speaks to that.

[clip]

Dr. Sandra Mitchell: So this is one thing that I think is a little different than desegregation integration stories that are told today, because often the Black school, what was left as is more degraded and all of that, and that was not the case. I think this was just about. The fact that we will be better if we all learn together from the beginning.

Rev. Grady W. Powell, Sr.: Okay. And Sandra, that, and that is living in communities.

[end clip]

Andrew: That is living in communities.

Val: That is. She names very clearly that when we're not living in community, we're desensitized to each other. We lose that sense of empathy and connection.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And thus, it has been totally worth it.

Andrew: Right. Woo, this was a good one, Val. Really glad we got to dig into this. So grateful to Dr. Mitchell and Reverend Doctor, I believe he has both actually. So, Reverend Dr. Grady Powell. Just so, so grateful that they were willing to come on and tell this story and, grateful to you listeners for tuning in and letting us know what you think. So we'd love to hear your thoughts on this episode. Send us a voice memo, speakpipe.com/integratedschools. Go to the website integratedschools.org and click the ‘leave us voicemail’ button, or record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us at podcast@integratedschools.org. We would love to hear what you think.

Val: That's right, and, you may have heard an increased amount of passion in this particular episode. I, I, I told you in the intro, it felt kind of personal. And so I hope that you feel passionate about these conversations as well, and that you don't keep it to yourself. Like, this conversation was made better because I shared it with my friend Andrew. So we encourage you to listen, share it with others, talk to others about it. It’s how we keep the conversation going.

Andrew: Yeah. And, to keep the conversation going, we need your support. So head on over to patreon.com/integratedschools. We would be grateful for a few bucks every month to help us keep these conversations going.

Val: Also, you all know that we are on people's radars for being award-winning, and we want to keep up…

Andrew: That's right.

Val: …that trend. So if you listen, make sure you leave a rating or review. We prefer high ratings if you like that.

Andrew: That's right.

Val: Because that gets us into the algorithms for other people to find us.

Andrew: This was a really great conversation, Val. As always, I'm grateful to be in it with you as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time.​