S11E18 – Reflections on Season 11

S11E18 - Reflections on Season 11

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Reflections on Season 11. Val, we made it to the end of another season of the podcast. Podcast has been going for almost seven years. You've been with us for almost four years.

Dr. Val: That is wild. I gave you, I gave you 30 days [both laugh] and here I am.

Andrew: You haven't quit yet.

Dr. Val: Almost four years later. It’s been a meaningful year.

Andrew: It has been a meaningful year. This season started back in September. The world feels like a pretty different place than it did back then.

Dr. Val: 100%, When we started the season, there was a different buzz in the air about what was possible and…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …and now we're living with reality of what is.

Andrew: Yeah. We knew was a possible outcome, but certainly had not fully grappled with what it might mean for this to be the world we were living in. But here we are.

So we thought we'd take a little time today to reflect on some of the highlights from the season, where we are in our lives right now, and what we're hoping for for next season.

Dr. Val: That's right. Okay. So before we get into the season talk, let's get personal real quick. I have a major milestone. So I have now a rising senior.

Andrew: Wild.

Dr. Val: And a rising junior.

Andrew: Coming up on the end.

Dr. Val: I know we've teased a lot about me getting to, my exit strategy here in terms of K-12 education. And it was a blink. It was a blink.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: I cannot believe we're here. We moved to North Carolina when my children were in sixth and seventh grade.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And already, we're doing things like we have already booked senior pictures.

Andrew: Wow.

Dr. Val: That happened. We just created an account for the Common app, which is the college admissions platform. I'm gonna learn a lot this year.

Andrew: Yeah. For real.

Dr. Val: And I'm super excited about it. And, I was expecting a kind of different world to send them off in.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val: So they'll graduate in ‘26 and ‘27 and who knows, who knows…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: ….what it's gonna be like for the next couple of years, as they try to navigate school and what colleges and universities are gonna be able to feel the freedom to do and talk about.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: But I'm excited. If I am crying every episode next season, it's not like my usual tears. These…

Andrew: They’re not the white supremacy headache so much as…

Dr. Val: …these are different tears.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: These are thinking about the ways in which our family is gonna transform over the next little bit. And so I'm just gonna ask for the call early. If there, if we have any listeners who have just finished this journey and wanna come and, and talk to me, I'd appreciate it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: How about you?

Andrew: Yeah. Also, also a big transition year. My youngest finished elementary school and my oldest finished middle school. We spent nine years at our elementary school between the oldest and the youngest. On the way to school this morning, figured probably have done the drive back and forth about 3000 times, you know, twice a day, 180 something times a year for nine years is kind of crazy to think about.

Dr. Val: It is. I mean 'cause what else has that kind of consistency, right.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: How excited are you about high school and that beginning?

Andrew: I'm excited for them both to start on sort of new journeys, and take on new challenges. You know, nine years is a long time to spend in one school community, and that school has, has really changed a lot over those nine years. And so, I think everybody's ready for something new.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I think particularly for my oldest, she's been ready for high school level freedom and flexibility for a while and it's been driving her a little crazy, the tight grip that the middle school has on kids. So I think she's excited about that and, I’m excited for her to, you know, find things that she's really passionate about and excited about and pursue those with a little more space than necessarily is possible in middle school.

And for the youngest, yeah, just like to be somewhere new. It’s the only school she's ever gone to since she was three. And so, you know, for her to have a new environment and new, new friends and new things to explore, I think she is also ready for the increased freedom and flexibility that comes with middle school. And it's, yeah, it's a big, it feels like a big sort of momentous change, for everybody.

Dr. Val: Well, I'm so glad we're still in this together.

Andrew: Me too.

Dr. Val: And, I'm sure our story's about the first day of school next season and all the milestones that will happen for our young people will make its presence in the conversation. So stay tuned y’all.

Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. It was a good season. We had a lot of great episodes, but we also had some big milestones for the podcast itself. We won a signal award

Dr. Val: That’s right. Woo.

Andrew: For anybody watching on YouTube, you can see our signal award here.

Dr. Val: It’s a beauty. It’s a beauty.

Andrew: Beautiful award there. And we were nominated for two Ambies, which was also very exciting. We did not win sadly, but did get to go to the award ceremony in Chicago, which was very exciting.

Dr. Val: Yeah. They are finally putting respect on our name, so you know, you gotta win the second place before you win the first place.

Andrew: That's right.

Dr. Val: We're on the right track.

Andrew: An honor being nominated for sure. And we started broadcasting on Columbus Community Radio. So episodes are going out there every Monday.

Dr. Val: We are out here in the public. That's so fun.

Andrew: Which is very exciting. We grew our Patreon support over the course of the season. Yeah, just had some real recognition, I think for all the work that goes in here.

Dr. Val: And I need our listeners to understand, like my co-host is the man. Okay. And so if there is a good episode, it is because of him.

Andrew: Oh, come on.

Dr. Val: Not only your technical skill, my friend, but your care and consideration in prepping for each interview, for making sure that I always sound good. Um, and just for bringing your full self to these conversations. I think that is what makes our podcast special. I think we are authentic in how we show up.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And I think people can connect to that and, you know I’ve seen you grow and change and, and be challenged and pushed and push me, you know, throughout these almost four years that we've been doing this. And so, I thank you.

Andrew: Well, I appreciate, I appreciate that. It has certainly been a real journey and something that I am constantly grateful for. All the conversations that I get to be a part of with our guests and then with you, it's really, yeah, certainly a highlight of my year has been all the work on this podcast that continues to come to listeners, entirely listener supported.

We have yet to sell you, uh, any underwear or toothbrushes or, uh…

Dr. Val: Not yet. Let us get big though. [laughing]

Andrew: That's right. Definitely grateful for all of the listeners out there who have sent messages and emails and voice memos and continue to support us financially as well.

Dr. Val: We appreciate you.

Andrew: So looking back, season 11, we had a number of great episodes. What stands out to you Val, as some highlights?

Dr. Val: Seriously you're gonna jump right in and ask me how to pick highlights from this amazing season.

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: Um, things that I am always thinking about and constantly like referring to, Susan and Elias.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: “Gratitude and validation: One Family's Journey Through Integrated Schools.”

Andrew: Yeah. That was the episode with Susan, our chapter leader in Lancaster and her son Elias talking about Elias expressing some gratitude for the choices that his parents made about sending him to integrating schools. And the two of them came on to talk about it, which was really powerful.

Dr. Val: And, you know, as adults we talk a lot about the importance of being a part of an integrated school. How there’s nothing to be afraid of and how beautiful things can happen when you are in these spaces and you're cared for and, and, and loved on by high quality educators. And so to have a young person come and say that, and make…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …it seem so simple and plain. You know, I didn't always trust young people's perception of what was going on…

Andrew: Mm, mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Val: … but they know and if we listen, they will tell us. I, I'm just thankful that we were able to have that episode. That's my first pick.

Andrew: That was definitely a special episode for sure. Anytime we get into the parent and caregiver and student conversations, there's always great stuff that comes from that.

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely. I think something else that the way the season played out is, I feel like we had some of the more nuanced conversations

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …that we've had on the podcast, where we might have gone in thinking something…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: … and then met with different information and, and, and pushed us in a way. So one thing I'm thinking about is “How Schools Make Race”...

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …with Dr. Laura Chàvez-Moreno. Like…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …you know, there were times that I really struggled with even understanding some of what she was saying, and that, I felt that a couple times throughout the season.

Andrew: Yeah. I think that that conversation with Dr. Chavez Moreno was great 'cause this idea of like, race is a concept that is designed to divide us and there is real social benefit to having a racial identity for many people. And this idea of being post-race without ignoring race. That yeah, we, we really sat with that one for a while. That was tricky.

Dr. Val: That was tricky.

Andrew: I think the other one that definitely took a lot of grappling and we spent a long time with that certainly pushed me and challenged me in a number of ways, was “Lies and Moral Deficiencies” with Greg Jarrell, um, about Whiteness. His story about kinda the White church and its role in, in gentrification, its role in, you know, urban renewal but also the historical roots of Whiteness and the issues with that. We certainly didn't hold back in that episode. I mean the title says, says a lot, “Lies and Moral Deficiencies”, which is something that he had said about the roots of Whiteness. That, um, definitely was a nuanced conversation.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And not long after that, Dr. Noliwe Rooks came on and talked to us about the Failures of Integration. And here we are,

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: you know, promoting this thing where she argues, passionately, that so much was lost in this.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And do we still continue this path if there are folks who aren't interested in walking with us? And this is something that we believe in. And to, to hear her ideas, to make sense of her ideas, to grapple with her ideas. It was just a lot. Whenever I think about the sacred Black spaces that were lost in integration, like I mourn those.

Andrew: Yeah. Certainly if anybody came to this season looking for uncomplicated clear takes on things like race and integration in schools, we did not provide that this season. But you know, in an era where nuance is often hard to come by, I'm certainly grateful for this space where we can really dig into those nuanced things where we can have the Integrated Schools podcast where really we believe in this mission of true integration that looks different than anything we've ever done before. But that is about, you know, finding a way through together and, and grapple with, you know, the place where Dr. Rooks ends up, at least right now, which is, you know, she feels like maybe we need to give separate but equal a try. And certainly that's not where I am. And I think like how she got there is, is well earned and it's valuable to, to sit and grapple with that and take seriously how she ended up there.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I don't wanna speak for her, but I think one way she ended up there that came up in episodes throughout the season as well, is the lack of love.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Right, and so this season we talked about love as being central…to the work that we’re trying to do.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And it came up from different guests. We didn't like prime them on it and it became like a running kind of theme about the importance of love in this. And I think what Dr. Rooks realized is like love was missing in so many of those original integration efforts.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: That it was doomed to fail because love was necessary for it to succeed.

Andrew: Right. Which is exactly what Dr. Gholdy Muhammad said in her episode that came after that about teaching with love, and that kind of underlying all of her ideas about what it takes to actually teach well is that it's gotta start with love.

And Dr. Eve Ewing also talked about the power of love, and that Dr. Ewing episode was definitely one of the highlights for me of the season. I think her clear-eyed look at the construction of American racism, that you can't really understand education without understanding its role in the construction of racism, you can't really understand where we are without looking squarely at the original sins, which is the title of her book of the country, of settler colonialism, genocide against Native peoples and chattel slavery, that those kind of original sins continue to shape so much of our country. And so much of that shaping is done through the education system.,

Dr. Ewing was great. And then we had to read to us, um, from her book, which was one of the first times we had done that, and that was very powerful.

Dr. Val: Yeah Dr. Ewing, um, brilliant thinker. Hilarious.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Val: And as you mentioned, clear-eyed on the impacts of the ways in which our systems were created and who they were created for, and who they were created upon. Right.

Andrew: Mm. Yeah.

Dr. Val: And that's another thing that I just feel incredibly grateful for to all of our guests. They are so gracious with us. They come on and they are open and thoughtful and reflective, and they allow us to, to dig deep into some things that they are thinking and their ideas. And I think sharing of ideas, especially as an academic, is a practice in vulnerability.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Because, you know, you're holding these things close and, and you bring them on to talk about 'em and you don't know, you know, how they're gonna float away.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And they trust us with those ideas. So, I’m grateful.

Andrew: Yeah. I'm very grateful for that. I mean we, we had some incredible thinkers, Michelle Adams, who talked about the, you know, Milliken v Bradley decision that, her interest in, came out of growing up in Detroit and her own experience going to school in Detroit, and her parents, the decisions that they made for her and for her schooling in the context of Detroit. That then is where the Milliken v Bradley case was seeded. That really led her to writing this book that was so powerful.

Dr. Val: Like, again, her story along with Dr. Rooks rooted in personal family history.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: And it was a reminder this season that so much of what we experience is rooted in that personal family history, if we just look hard enough for it, right?

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: We come from a place where our parents, our grandparents, our great-grandparents, all had experiences with schools that were defining in some way. Right? And for our, our grandparents who may have had segregated experiences, I can speak for mine. She was happy. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: You know, was happy. For my father who integrated schools, that was tumultuous.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And so, knowing that it is in our family histories as well, and that we shouldn't look past our family's histories when we're trying to understand the story is an important reminder.

Andrew: Those personal stories are, are so powerful. Another episode that stands out is The First One, Sandra Mitchell, who shared her own story of desegregating school in Virginia in 1963. And we got to share clips of the conversation she had with her father, the Reverend Grady Powell. That was just, yeah, amazing, incredibly impressive man. And to be able to sort of share her story that hadn't really been told in many places felt like a real privilege.

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely. And Sandra Mitchell, just in her professional life, has been involved with this work for so long, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And there were two episodes that gathered together folks that are working on behalf of these efforts, as a part of their daily job. And so I'm thinking about the wonderful folks that you met at the NCSD conference where you had live recordings there and had some reaction.

And then also our friends at Brown's Promise, Ary and Saba. And then also we had, our good friend, I'm calling everybody a friend here. I hope they, I hope they know. [both laugh]

Andrew: That's, that's part of the contract when you come on.

Dr. Val: Janel George who really kicked us off with “Deny Defund Divert.” Right.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: In terms of the ways in which our efforts have been thwarted for decades.

Andrew: Yeah. It's a reminder that there are lots of people who care about school integration. There's a lot of people out there working on it and working on it from various different perspectives and with various different approaches to making change. I think particularly, in the wake of the election, remembering that those people are out there, remembering those people are doing their work, that even when it feels like kind of the dominant narrative that you're hearing is so much pushback to anything related to racial justice, anything related to diversity at all, to integration, feels like there's like a cultural moment pushing back against that in so many ways, that those voices who are pushing back are loud. But there are lots of people out there who are continuing to do this work, who continue to be committed to it.

And certainly the episode, “Finding Hope Together” that, featured audio from this conference, from the National Coalition on School Diversity, that reminder that people are out there, people care that even if we're not hearing their voices in the news every day, that those people are out there every day doing the work and trying to, make our school system work better, trying to help set our kids up for a future that we all wanna live in.

Dr. Val: That's right. Something else that felt clear this season is the power, good or bad, of caregivers in these spaces.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: The last two episodes are the ones that I'm thinking about, Advocating for Black Educator Wellness with Dr. Asia Lyons, and then The Intersection of Private Decisions and Public Responsibility with Dr. Stephanie and Dr. Lisa.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: In Dr. Asia's episode, she talks about how parents and their resistance to any social justice education at the time, was the lever that pushed her out of teaching.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. She told the story of the parents of 17 kids pulling their kids out of her social justice class that had been approved by the school, had been taught many years in a row, but then in the wake of Trump's first election, parents not wanting to have their kids learn those things anymore, and the power that those small group of parents had that eventually ended up pushing her out of education altogether.

Dr. Val: Thankfully she landed softly in a way that has helped educators around the country.

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: And specifically in her home state of Colorado.

Andrew: Yeah. I think it's a, it's a reminder that, you know, we often talk about how you show up really matters. That it is important to show up. It is important to use your voice, and it's important to be thoughtful about who you're using your voice on behalf of and, and for what end. Because there is the power when parents come together to really actually make change, which has this potential to be really positive. You know, we want to harness the power of parents to advocate on behalf of their kids, and if it's used in a way that is not thoughtful, if it's used in a way that is for a small handful of kids and not the whole school community, that it can really be detrimental.

Dr. Val: Which takes us to our last episode.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And again, we listen and we don't judge. And that's a position we had to adopt in this last episode. Because I think we are strong public school advocates.

Andrew: It was the first time we really dug into private schools as a topic on the podcast. We haven't talked much about private schools in part 'cause they don't tend to make up a huge portion of kids. And I think, we both, I think come with a certain degree of skepticism about that choice, because it feels like it is, opting out of this collective good that I think we both believe in as something that is crucial to having a democracy, having a functioning country is a public education system.

Dr. Val: I certainly have feelings I recognized in that episode around what happens when you feel like the public school is failing, and so you choose the private option. Right. And all I could, all I could hear in part of that interview was like, public schools aren't enough. The people in public schools aren't enough. Like, I want better, I want more. And that, you know, that's the part that feels personal.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And yet we recognize that people are making those decisions for various reasons.

Andrew: Yeah, certainly, definitely another place where I was pushed to think more deeply about it and it definitely generated some feedback as well. I wanna share a little bit of that. Some positive and also grappling kind of feedback.

So Tara in Connecticut, said, “I really needed this episode. I've been feeling super exhausted navigating this conversation locally. And so I often fall back into judging because it's easier and less ambiguous, but that's not how we change hearts and minds.” And so Tara was grateful for the ways that that conversation pushed her.

And then Susan Elias's mom, Susan, wrote in she says,

“I always think areas where we can expand compassion anywhere is necessary. And I applaud Dr. Val and Andrew for attempting that with this episode. I think for folks who have been in terrible situations with their children and are desperate for relief, but yet are struggling with the ethical piece of school choice, I hope they feel seen by this episode.

Personally, I struggled with this episode because I've found that the aforementioned folks are the exception to the rule. In our community, the rule is White parents opportunity hoarding and placing blame on the under-resourced school or the children or the teachers in those schools, when it's really their panic that their children won't get the absolute best of the best. The awfulness of White supremacy is that the system will ensure that their kids get the best of the best no matter where they go, and that's where my judgment kicks in.

This episode made me realize that there are times when I've talked to parents whose kids are clearly in pain and they're struggling with this decision, and I try to exercise compassion in those situations. But I don't think that that's the case most often. And I found myself going back to the judgment part a lot during this convo. I'm not usually irritated during an episode, but I was during this one, which I found interesting. Anyway, thank you Val and Andrew for your courage in doing this one and continuing to try to open minds and hearts. I appreciate the space to have these convos.”

Dr. Val: Yeah. Oh, that sounds like we need wine and cheese. Right.

Andrew: Absolutely. [laughing]

Dr. Val: Thank you Susan. I think your response is the exact type of tension that is worth engaging in as you work to be the best human you wanna be, for the best community you wanna help build. Right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And that's the challenge.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: I don't have the answers, because I left many of these episodes confused.

Andrew:Right. Absolutely. And still grappling and I mean, particularly on the private school front, you know, something that Anna, from our leadership team says is, there's this like White parent tendency to, she calls it like terminal uniqueness. Like my kid is the exception.

So, you know, sort of as soon as their door is open for this is what people should do, unless, White folks will try to cram themselves into that unless door. And I think that the idea that Drs Stephanie and Lisa mentioned that there's not like a scale you can use to say, this is a legitimate exiting of public school, or this isn't, or this is enough of a challenge in the public school system to justify it or not is, is real. And it's, and it's hard.

And something Nikole Hannah-Jones says is like, White parents will always try to talk to her and sort of say like, yeah, yeah, I know I should, but like, here's my unique situation. Trying to get her to like absolve them of, of the choice they made. And she says she will never give them that absolution that like, if, if that's where you ended up, that's where you ended up, but you should be grappling with that. You should sit with that, that should feel like a heavy, hard choice. And maybe it is the right choice in the end but, it shouldn't be an easy choice.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: I do think like trying, trying to hold that space for that conversation and, we grappled with that. We sat and listened and tried not to judge as best we could. And it feels like, particularly in this moment where public education is under attack in so many places, that we really need everybody to, to speak up in favor of public schools.

And we, we need to call in as many people as we can to the mission of well-funded, well-resourced, public, integrated schools that are teaching honest history. That is our only hope if we are going to get through this period, in the country.

And so, the places where I find myself inclined to close off, I'm pushing now to, to, to open up, to welcome more people in, to sit in that nuance a little more.

Dr. Val: I'm glad you mentioned holding space. Holding space requires courage, intellectual curiosity, humanity,

Andrew: Patience.

Dr. Val: patience, and I am of the belief that everyone has a bridge, right? Now, I might not be the bridge for every person, but I can connect someone who can connect to someone, who can connect to someone, who can connect to someone. And that bridge ends up being significantly longer than just a conversation between me and one other person.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And that's, to me, worth the investment. Now, I will tell you, it is a completely selfish decision.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val: I’m trying to save my life and the life of my kids

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: and everyone I love, right? That is what I understand the work to be. I don't, I don't know that everyone feels like it's their work to try

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: to try to be those bridges, to try to hold space. I don't, I don't know that everyone has the capacity to do so. But I do believe that everyone can be reached,

Andrew: Yeah,

Dr. Val: right?

I wouldn't be who I was if I just thought there were throwaway people. We can't throw anybody away. But it is hard work. It is hard work. It takes a lot of energy, and you don't always know that it's gonna pan out the way that you hoped.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And it might be years in gestation,

Andrew: Yeah. That idea of planting seeds feels powerful to me. There's like the West Wing-ified version of the world where like the right speech at the right time makes somebody change their mind. And then you feel like, great, I said the right thing in the right way with the right words, and now that person has totally changed their opinion.

And

Dr. Val: It doesn’t happen like that . . .

Andrew: you know, when, when has that ever happened? You know, like in an ideal world? Sure. But like, that's not what actually happens. What happens is you plant a little seed. What happens is you send somebody to bed that night with this little nagging thing in the back of their mind that's like, Hmm, I wonder about that.

And then another three weeks go by and then you have another conversation, and then you plant another little seed and you water it a little more. And maybe not always, but sometimes in the best version of it, several months, years, whatever, down the road that little seed has, has germinated. There's something to, to take root there that is now starting to, to grow, that is starting to push people to think in a different way.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I think that's the difference between folks who are willing to cultivate these relationships in order to get a deeper understanding of, of what others are thinking, versus someone who is steadfast and wants to cut you down because you think differently.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And I don't see any benefit being that latter example.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: you know? I don't have to cut people down who don't agree with me,

Andrew: Right,

Dr. Val: I also don't always have to entertain them. Right.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: But certainly, I wanna be characterized as someone who is committed to that cultivation of meaningful relationships, where goal is some type of common ground for the common good.

Andrew: Without abandoning principles, without abandoning humanity, without abandoning things that are non-negotiable and while looking for the places of, of overlap and shared humanity.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: And I think that's ultimately the promise of well integrated schools, is giving our kids access to those spaces from the time they're little. Is teaching them that that's the way that we interact in the world. And, and giving them a little, you know, mini version of that as they're starting to make friends, as they're starting to realize who they are as people. Because it's so much less work when they're little kids. You know, they're so much more naturally inclined to do it when they're little kids.

Dr. Val: That's right. And we hope we raise a world where you drive by and you forget why that wall is there, so you’re like, “let's take it down.”

Wow. I mean, you know, once we do that recap, I'm like, dang, no wonder we're winning awards out here. We're awesome.

Andrew: So this will wrap up Season 11. We'll take a little break. Maybe a couple of bonus episodes over the summer. We'll see how things go, but, um, be back for real in the fall for the next season. What are you hopeful for for season 12, Val?

Dr. Val: My hope for season 12 is that we can continue to get rockstar guests to come on and share their, their best thinking with us.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: I would love more parent episodes because I think those help listeners connect to the real moments that caregivers are having around some of these issues and conversations. I hope that we continue to develop. We continue to grow

Andrew: Yeah,

Dr. Val: And that's my hope for season 12. How about you?

Andrew: Yeah. I, I share that. I think continuing to hold space for nuanced, thoughtful conversations, to continue to deepen our relationship and explore the places where we agree, and those places where we disagree, and do it in a way that hopefully serves as an example of how we can have cross-racial conversations about hard topics, um, that leave us in a stronger position than when we started.

And yeah, more guests and, uh, you know, maybe, uh, a sponsor or two and some more Patreon supporters.

Dr. Val: I would love to have a, a, a face-to-face event where we can just bring people together, have our favorite beverage and favorite piece of cheese, and just talk.

Andrew: Yeah,

Dr. Val: And so another live, another live opportunity would be awesome.

Andrew: Another live show would be great. Yes.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: So if you have a great location and think that, a live show in your city would be well attended, hit us up. We would love to talk about that podcast@integratedschools.org And of course, if you've got a story to tell, we want to hear about it.

Dr. Val: Your story might become its own episode, so don’t be afraid to tell your story.

Andrew: Send us a voice memo. We listen to them all, even if they don't necessarily fit in a particular episode, they are all filtering in and shaping the things we're thinking about for future conversations for the next season and the ways that we're thinking about it.

So we are always grateful to hear from you. speakpipe.com/integratedschools, S-P-E-A-K-P-I p.com/integrated schools.

Dr. Val: That's right. And if you're not sending your kids to really expensive summer camp, then send some money to us.

Andrew: That's right.

Dr. Val: you can go to integratedschools.org. And click on the big red donate button. Um, you help contribute to the organization and specifically to the podcast. Every dollar helps.

Andrew: Absolutely. And you can buy merch now. We have IntegratedSchools, merch, public schools, save democracies, t-shirts and sweatshirts and tank tops.

Dr. Val: I’ve got two!

Andrew: I've got two as well. My kids have them. They're wearing them to school. Their teachers are all very pleased, I think. They're getting some probably, extra credit from their teachers for wearing their public school safe democracy shirts to school.

So,there'll be a link in the show notes and on the website there's a link to our store where you can buy those.

Dr. Val: So this is just see you in a little bit.

Andrew: That's right.

Dr. Val: Andrew and I are, are working constantly behind the scenes. We try to get a get ahead of schedule. Sometimes that works out in our favor.

Andrew: Sometimes, sometimes does, sometimes doesn't.

Dr. Val: And so we will be listening to your voice memos all summer as well. So just because we're on a break doesn't mean that we are not back here working.

Andrew: Val, thank you for this season. Thank you for your friendship. Thank you for all of the conversations we get to have. It is truly an honor for me to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next season.