S11E13 – Finding Hope, Together

S11E13 - Finding Hope, Together

Andrew: Welcome to Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Finding Hope Together.

Dr. Val: That's super hopeful my friend.

Andrew: So a couple of weeks ago, I was fortunate enough to go to the National Conference of the National Coalition for School Diversity, NCSD. They've been huge supporters of ours for a long time. They were the ones who put on the event that Val, you and I were fortunate enough to co-host for…

Dr. Val: So fun.

Andrew: … the 70th Brown anniversary. So it was great to be back in DC a few weeks ago to see all sorts of people, Anna Lodder from our leadership team was there. Really amazing gathering. Very diverse. Racially, by age in terms of, you know, where people are working from, researchers to school leaders, to teachers, to policy people, a bunch of Department of Education staff members. And everybody was there gathered to talk about the importance of school integration work, which was very inspiring.

Dr. Val: Right. And just to remind our listeners where we are, things are not looking great for schools, and other cultural institutions.

Andrew: Very true. This was a particularly dark moment when we were in DC. The first night of the conference the Department of Education staffers had all been offered $25,000 to resign, little did we know at that point that just a couple weeks later, half of them would all be fired. Everyone was definitely feeling how heavy things felt and how so many of the institutions were under attack. There was a heavy air and there was something galvanizing about all being together in the same space and seeing all these people who were still committed to this vision.

Dr. Val: You know, when I am feeling hopeless or concerned, really the best antidote for me is to be in community with other people who are like-minded, who are trying, who also can give little pieces of hope, who have shared some of the ways in which they are trying to continue to make change in their communities. And so I can imagine that that space had a buzz that felt tangible, in that moment, and you didn't feel alone.

Andrew: I think just the fact of having a shared space, of having a conference, you know, hosted by the National Coalition for School Diversity, which in and of itself was a little bit scary. You know, the publicity, the media around the conference was scaled way back in the wake of the inauguration because, you know, there was a fear that it would potentially be a targeted environment. And so, seeing a couple hundred people show up and be committed to this. Michelle Adams was a keynote speaker, was amazing as always. Um. And just, yeah, it was, it was really inspiring.

There was certainly lots of conversations that I was a part of about the challenges. The, there were a couple of executive orders about education that had recently come out. There was a dear colleague letter to school districts. There was lots of conversation about the darkness and the challenging times and the things that were going wrong, and I wanted to spend a little bit of time connecting to people's why, why they cared about this in the first place, and the things that were providing hope for them in the challenging times. And so I had a microphone and set out to ask some people about it and got a couple of clips to share with everybody.

Dr. Val: I'm very excited I wasn't able to be at the conference with you. And so I'm, I'm very excited to hear the voices, and you too can add your voice to this conversation by just calling us and leaving us a voice memo. We wanna hear you too.

Andrew: That's right, speakpipe.com/integrated schools. Let us know where you are finding hope in these moments. And uh, yeah, let's take a listen to some of the folks who are at the National Coalition for School Diversity National Conference.

[THEME MUSIC]

Whitney: Whitney Middlebrooks. I am the project Director for the Foster and Diverse Schools grant, with the Winston-Salem Forsyth County School System in North Carolina.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Whitney: I care about school integration because our kids deserve to have those opportunities and resources from diverse backgrounds of people that bring different resources, cultural differences, um, it really expands our experiences, our learning environments, um, and really creates that opportunity to socialize. Um, it creates, um, friendships, long lasting friendships, and again, experiences that you maybe, may would not have experienced if you were only in a certain environment of people that particularly look like you.

Andrew: What in your background led you to believe that? Why do you care?

Whitney: You know, so growing up I maybe have naturally been around people that look like me. Um, I did come from a family where we did value that our culture was important.

Andrew: Yeah.

Whitney: But for me in general, I understand that there's value in diversity. Everything can't be from one experience. Everything can't be from one vision. So I just value those opportunities to learn from different people, explore, and again, it is really that social aspect. I really think it helps people socially…

Andrew: Definitely. Right.

Whitney: …of being able to communicate differently. Um, 'cause everybody is not gonna think like you. And know that this is a huge world. And so we don't want to have our children grow and not be prepared for the real world.

Andrew: Right. I appreciate that you like, name that the value of those spaces that are culturally affirming, and the need for those spaces where we can come together across lines of difference. Yeah. What gives you hope right now in these dark, challenging times?

Whitney: [laughs] The hope I have is very internal, is that and I have a faith. So I'm leaning, I'm really leaning onto that right now because I'll say in these dark times, it's looking a little like…

Andrew: [chuckling] Like externally, it's harder to find.

Whitney: You know, when I, when I open my phone or I turn on the tv, I'm gonna be honest. What I see isn't looking too good. So I have to lean onto my faith. And knowing that, without work, faith is not gonna happen. So I look at it like I still have to do the work, right? To believe in the faith that I believe, right?

Andrew: Ooh, I like that.

Whitney: I have to do the work, you know, I have to continue to show up even when sometimes I don't want to. I have to continue to lean into this work that I'm doing and my colleagues and look at these students and knowing that we, we need to change. So even when it's a little dark, you know, I have to hold on to that and know that I believe that we're gonna get on the other side. Now, how long it's gonna take and what it's gonna look like as we get there… I, I feel like it's gonna be, it's gonna be a little bit of a fight. But I think if we get the right people, the right voices and being okay with speaking up about it and speaking against what's happening, we gonna be alright.

Andrew: Yes. Thank you, Whitney. That's beautiful.

Joseph: My name is, uh, Joseph Boselovic. I'm a qualitative sociologist and I am currently at the School of Education at the College of William and Mary.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Joseph: If we understand or care about a lot of contemporary issues and education a lot of it goes back to these long historical questions about where do kids end up going to school. And how does that matter for the kinds of teachers and resources they have? And what education does or doesn't afford to kids from different racial and economic backgrounds.

Andrew: What do your students think about it? They come to your class, have they thought about segregation before? Are you presenting new information to them? Is this something that's on their minds?

Joseph: Yeah, it's interesting 'cause when we're talking a bit about historical roots of the American education system, I'll say like, oh, have you heard of, you know, Brown V Board of Education? Sure. If most of them have heard of it and then I say, oh, what do you know about it? And, you know, there's normally maybe a pause and some kids raising their hands. They'll say like, oh, it ended school segregation.

And over time they go from realizing, oh, these were these big debates and social conflicts of the fifties, sixties, and seventies through to like, oh, there's actually still student groups fighting for this stuff today. Or still court cases about this today. And they maybe look at their own districts and say, I come from a district where people were bussed in or where there was this choice plan because they're going back to these same fights and so they see it not as some, you know, just moment in time that you cover in like a history of ed class, but as something that really, shapes the landscape of how we think about education today and still shapes this kind of unequal geography of opportunity that, they see themselves as being a part of in their own way as students who navigated the system.

Andrew: Yeah. What, what gives you hope from the students that you work with?

Joseph: A lot of the folks I work with are future teachers or thinking about going into policy and research. And so I think when I see some of the wheels clicking on some of this stuff, I think those are really powerful moments because we often think about these kind of grand, big solutions and solutions to these long, historic problems. But I think being able to see students make connections between like, oh, I see how the decisions I make as a teacher or as a policy maker or what I study can maybe shed more light on some of these things that don't always get attention. And that maybe I, even if, if there are these longer, you know, bigger inequalities, I can be more attentive to this. And even just the way I treat my kids and understand my students. Being more attentive to these things, I think can make some of those small, but really important, changes in the school system.

Andrew: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Liz Nigro: My name is Liz Nigro. She/her pronouns, and I am currently an intern at the Bridges Collaborative and a PhD candidate at UVA.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Liz Nigro: I think especially at this moment, school integration is really important for building communities within our pluralistic democracy. Building community across lines of difference and realizing we're stronger together than we are apart. And I think our democracy and really the future of the planet where we're facing all these collective action problems, it really depends on this work.

Andrew: Yep. Absolutely. These are dark times.

Liz Nigro: Yeah.

Andrew: For sure. Hard to, hard to find a lot of hope. But what gives you hope in this, in this moment as you're finishing your PhD and looking to enter the world of school integration work?

Liz Nigro: Yeah, so I, throughout my PhD have been doing a lot of youth participatory action research, and last year in one of our collaborations, the youth addressed within school segregation at their local high school through tracking practices. And the district right now is doing some tracking practice reform. So I think really seeing youth voice and power at the forefront of this movement has given me a lot of hope.

Andrew: Amazing.

Peter: Peter Piazza. I'm a research assistant professor at UMass Amherst.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Peter: I think it's our best hope if we're gonna get out of this mess that we're in right now.

Andrew: What gives you hope in the, in these moments?

Peter: Oh man. I think like, if everything's gonna be torn down, then good people are thinking about how to rebuild.

Andrew: Mm-hmm

Peter: So that gives me some hope. And, you know, speaking as a parent, it gives me some hope to see my kids loving their experience at an integrated school. And unless our children learn together,

Andrew: Little hope.

Peter: Little hope… our people will, uh, learn to live together. So, yeah.

Andrew: What of the work that you've been doing lately has felt like success?

Peter: Some of the school leaders that I work with are being so brave during this time. Having a focus not only on racial equity, but the way that gender issues have intersected with…

Andrew: Mm-hmm

Peter: …all of the things that we care about. Right. And the way that gender issues have come under attack. There are, there are school leaders who are standing up and I've been so lucky to work with them.

Obrian Rosario: My name is Obrian Rosario. I use he/him pronouns and currently I'm a law student at Howard University School of Law.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Obrian Rosario: I care about school integration because of, being a student that had often been in like gifted and talented, honors, top class, specialized high schools, the veil of like getting resources was lifted when I realized how people in my neighborhood, people that looked like me, they didn't have the same access to me.

And so in my high school, we had a flight simulator, we had industrial type of grade graded materials. We had a whole courtroom inside of our high school. Um, and there's people that didn't even have a cafeteria, didn't even have an auditorium. And so that's really what got me, mobilized me into integrating schools.

Andrew: Yeah. What's giving you hope right now about the school integration movement in general?

Obrian Rosario: What's giving me hope is that I, I feel as if I was called for this time. As an organizer years ago, once I met lawyers and being a student intervener on a case and seeing how the law can be used as a tool for power, as a tool for social change, um, was something that really intrigued me. And I set out to become a lawyer one day. And I'm sitting here on the precipice of becoming that. And so I think that just the fact that I'll be graduating and doing the work that I had always envisioned is something that's giving me hope, even though it's like we're still fighting the same fights, which is not necessarily the most hopeful thing.

Andrew: That's true. [chuckling] Yeah.

Obrian Rosario: Um, but I also would say that learning about the law and just learning how these are not new fights that we've been fighting these fights forever and people have devised strategies, um, is really what's been giving me hope as well.

Andrew: Yeah, that's amazing. Tell me just like a quick thing about Peer Defense Project.

Obrian Rosario: Peer Defense Project is an intergenerational movement lawyering, um, organization. We are 501C3, building legal tools by and with youth leaders to use the law for power.

Andrew: You were also involved in Integrate NYC, right? So you have, you have been these like key pillars of youth engagement and empowerment, Integrate NYC, Peer Defense, all of that. What's the importance of youth voice in this movement?

Obrian Rosario: I think centering youth voice is really important because at the end of the day, we are the people who are attending the schools. We are the people who will inherit these schools, and being the people closest to the issue, we have the solutions. When young people have stepped up historically in this country, we have seen things change.

Andrew: What does it look like to support youth led movements for, for people who are no longer youths?

Obrian Rosario: I think meaningfully supporting youth is one, like giving them the space and the platforms for them to be able to speak out on the issues in a non like, paternalistic way.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Obrian Rosario: Bringing them to the table as decision makers. Young people have brilliant and creative things, so young people can really bring that fresh type of perspective to things.

Andrew: Amazing. Thank you so much for taking some time and for all the work you're doing.

Obrian Rosario: Thank you.

Nyah Berg: My name is Nyah Berg and I am the Executive Director at New York Apple Seed.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Nyah Berg: I think what it comes down to, and I keep reflecting on this Martin Luther King Jr., building a beloved community.

Andrew: Mm.

Nyah Berg: What we could be as a society if we all cherished each other, had empathy for each other. And I think growing up in a multicultural family, like a multiethnic family has grounded those values in me. So school integration is personal to me, because it's brought me joy, but it's also brought me like reflections. And then I saw research that also supported everything that I benefited from, and I was like, oh, well why? Why wouldn't we want this for everyone else?

Andrew: Yep. Say more about your personal connection. Like how, how did that show up in your life?

Nyah Berg: I grew up in a suburb outside of Boston. My family was part of the 1% in that suburb. Right. Affluent, mostly, if not all white. You know, growing up in that environment, but then also going home to my mom, who's White, my dad, who's Black. And having sort of this biracial, multicultural grounding place, but then questioning why that wasn't the case in other spaces and not seeing it anywhere else.

Andrew: You didn't see it anywhere else.

Nyah Berg: It kind of just shaped my passion and compassion for this subject. Also my like, anger and frustration…

Andrew: Yes.

Nyah Berg: …with the more policies that I learned and why we're still fighting to dismantle so much of these harmful policies today.

Andrew: Yeah. Uh, dark times right now.

Nyah Berg: Yeah, just a little bit. [laughing]

Andrew: What, what is bringing you hope?

Nyah Berg: I went to a Black History month celebration, Nikole Hannah Jones was speaking. And I think being in that space and there was someone who sang uh, Wade in the Water.

Andrew: Mmmm.

Nyah Berg: While everyone closed their eyes. You had Deltas in the background from many generations. So I think I'm describing this moment because it's those moments that bring me hope because I see the resilience of multiple generations of Black people, Black families, Black women, particularly Black women, and thinking about the legacy that I get to carry and, and hold, that makes me emotional. Um, really emotional, but also like, empowers me to think about, that we continue on. Like no matter what you continue on.

Andrew: You have to, right. ‘Cause what choice do you have?

Nyah Berg: Yeah, exactly.

Andrew: Thank you.

Jen Goeffry: Jen Goeffry. I am a leadership coach currently.

Andrew: Amazing. Why do you care about school integration?

Jen Goeffry: Um, because as someone who grew up, in a place where my zip code determined my educational outcomes, I don't want that for other students.

Andrew: What is giving you hope right now in dark times?

Jen Goeffry: I feel like even attending this conference is an act of resistance. And I get to talk and meet with co-conspirators and know that the work that we are doing together, um, will continue on regardless of the circumstances that we are currently in.

Etai: My name is Etai Mizrav. I'm a professor at Northeastern University. I study school segregation.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Etai: You know, it all started from my work in Washington DC. I was the manager of policy for the state agency. I felt like I'm doing well for a few years and, after a while, I've started feeling like my work is less and less effective, and I was interested in why that might be.

Andrew: Mm-hmm

Etai: And my conclusion was that school segregation hinders progress in addressing educational inequality. And I became, you could say, a little bit obsessed with the problem of school segregation. And I've grown both as a practitioner and as a researcher to really see it as a, as a root cause of many of the other issues that we talk about.

I'll give you an example. In Washington, DC we have a problem of parents’ contributions. Parents give school. Rather than sending your child to a private school, they're gonna give a lot of money to your public school. Which creates inequality where you have a segregated system where some schools of many parents can give a lot of money and other schools none. Uh, that's an example of a resource distribution problem that would've been resolved if we were to desegregate our schools. Uh, so I, I, I really see it as an issue that is at the core of educational inequality.

Andrew: What, in your background made you care about that?

Etai: Well, you know, I always cared about social justice and I think that brought me to education. I didn't grow up, uh, in the United States. I came here 13 years ago. I don't have the lived experience that some of my colleagues in research and practice have, they were subject of that discrimination. But what I do have, and what I try to maintain as someone who did not grow up here is the ability to look at something and see it as if I've seen it for the very first time.

Andrew: Mm-hmm. Right.

Etai: Be shocked by that inequality. Be shocked by that, segregation, as opposed to someone who may have been a little bit, to some extent indoctrinated to kind of, of feel like it's, it's, it's normal.

Andrew: This is the way things have always been. Of course, it's this way. Right.

Etai: So I try to maintain that ability to, to continue and be shocked. It allowed me to establish relationship between segregation, discrimination, and what I call signaling, which is where the government comes and says good school, bad school. And creates a cycle that fulfills itself.

Andrew: Yes.

Etai: Uh, between kind of how we segregate the students through choice and zoning. We discriminate them with insufficient resources, and then we give the stamp. And say, bad school, don't go here.

Andrew: Right. And then nobody comes. And so then they have less resources and then it's like, yep. See we told you this was a bad school.

Etai: Exactly. So I call that the SDS triangle. Segregate, discriminate, signal. And what this model is, is also a way to look at school segregation as a modern day, 21st century problem. With 21st century drivers. In addition, not as opposed to, but in addition to the historical drivers.

Andrew: Yes.

Etai: And see it as something that we create right here and right now. And it's also a way that is still our role as education policy practitioner, as opposed to the people who plan housing and responsible for the housing segregation, which is very important. But there's a portion in the school segregation problem that is because of our work, education policy practitioner. That's the portion that I'm mostly interested in. I live in a diverse neighborhood in Washington, DC with segregated schools. And we have segregated schools in many diverse neighborhoods. Which tells me that it's not only a housing

Andrew: Right. And the housing thing is an excuse. Right.

Etai: Completely. It's an excuse.

Andrew: And I think the other piece of the housing thing is, is any proposal to decrease segregation between schools, people are going to look at some housing segregation thing and say, “Well see it can't work everywhere.” Ignoring the possibility that where it works, we should do it. We have the obligation to fix the problem wherever we can fix the problem. Maybe we can't fix the problem everywhere, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try where we can.

Etai: The job of the public servant is to seek the realm of impact. Where is it that you could make an impact? And, I wish that more public servants would look, whether it's the 1%, 5%, 50% that they could affect in terms of integrating schools, diversifying schools, and addressing educational inequality.

Andrew: Yeah. What's giving you hope right now?

Etai: I'm, I'm an optimistic person, even though my research is grim. You know, I, I, I teach a class, I call it Policies of Educational Inequality. What are policies of it? Do you actually have? Yes, I believe we do have policies of educational…

Andrew: That are designed for…

Etai: Right. And, every week is another one of those policies. So it's a very grim class and I always apologize to my students about that. But, but in fact, I'm optimistic because the type of educational inequality that we see, that's man made, uh, uh, inequality. And for me, it's sad and pessimistic, but it's also optimistic because we've created that, that means that we could address it. And what drives me is, is, is absolutely a belief. That, that this is a product of policies, practices, and choices and we could make other choices.

Andrew: Yes.

Etai: That would make it for a more equitable system despite, you know, the vicious history that we all know about.

Andrew: Beautiful. Thanks so much for your time.

Etai: Thank you, Andrew.

Effie McMillian: Effie McMillan, chief Equity Officer for Winston-Salem Forsythe County Schools.

Andrew: Why do you care about school integration?

Effie McMillian: It's one lever for opening up access and opportunity, particularly for children who may come from or live in communities that have been historically underserved.

We live in a global society now, our mission and vision for our district is that we're preparing students for the future, post-secondary opportunities, and to live in a global society where they can work alongside, collaborate with, and engage with others from diverse backgrounds.

You can't fulfill that mission or vision. If students are separated and don't have the opportunity to be with their peers. To hear different perspectives, learn different things, and I think it just builds other skills that sometimes the public doesn't believe, or at least the language or conversations that's happening now, that education should just focus on academics, reading, writing, and math. Those things are critical and important, but there are other skills that universities, employers are looking for and just life skills that students need to take into the future. Like empathy for the sake of humanity. Collaborating and cooperation. Being able to hear and understand different perspectives. Like if you don't have access to that or opportunities for that, those are particular skills that you don't develop necessarily. Particularly if it's limited within your community as well. School is not the only place that that can happen. But it is the one place that we touch the majority of children. That would allow for them to have those opportunities.

Andrew: What in your background made you care about that?

Effie McMillian: So where I grew up, it's a very rural community, so there were very limited number of schools that you would be able to go to. The demographics at that time was primarily Black, White, American Indian. We all came together, we all learned together. We all had great relationships that still exist today. It just opened me up to a new whole world. To see the different perspectives, which has really enriched me. I did the same for my daughter with her schooling experience and to me it has just made me a better human, it has made her a better human.

And I think one of the things I'm proud of with her also being a single parent, is that my daughter, who will soon be 31, she can pretty much navigate any environment because she has lived in communities with a wide array of people. She's gone to schools with people from all different backgrounds. And so any circle that she's in, she is able to adapt, build relationships.

Andrew: Other than your daughter, what's giving you hope right now?

Effie McMillian: So there's quite a few things that are giving me hope. The community that I work in, even though we are working to redraw residential boundaries that have not been done since the early 1990s, what I hear from so many members of the community is that they want their children to go to schools where there's diversity. There's no doubt there's many challenges in public education that we also have to grapple with. But I do have hope because there is a large number of people who really value what difference brings to the table. So you have to be anchored in those things to keep you motivated to do the work that, that you feel is right and necessary for all children.

Andrew: Thank you very much.

Effie McMillian: Thank you.

Andrew: Scott Smith, from Minneapolis, what is giving you hope?

Scott Smith: I'm an ever optimist, and I tend to think that in times where things seem so far afield that they actually really help clarify the norm in what people value. So the farther afield we get, the more people come together and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Actually this is what we want for our future.

What also gives me hope is that I believe most people are quite good. And I do believe in the power of love and justice. And that is something that drives all people. And people do want connection. Because that was very central to our ethos. And they don't like division. And so I think that this is also, again, an opportunity for us to clarify what we value and to be who we naturally are.

Andrew: Yeah. That's beautiful. What does the world look like if we, if we get there?

Scott Smith: Well, I mean, it'd be naive to say that, you know, the darkness of the world goes away, right? Because there will always be greed and hunger and fear, and those are really powerful forces. Right? But I feel like there would, there's less fear, there's less suspicion, there's more trust, there's more generosity and hopefully a bit more grace too. I think people are getting tired of being worn down. But I don't think people are ready to give up or give in on their fellow human beings and their countrymen. I think that people are probably actually getting closer to the point of saying this might be enough and we can do better.

Andrew: I hope you're right.Thank you very much.

[THEME MUSIC]

Andrew: So Val, what'd you think?

Dr. Val: Integration efforts, people coming together. For justice, for a beloved community, for opportunities to learn from one another to have meaningful friendships, across racial difference. All of that has been under attack before. And I used to not fully understand this saying that history is prologue, right. And now I can see that a lot more clearly, like we have been here before and we understand what it looks like when our country is at its worst.

And we've seen the beauty of when it all comes together even perfectly. Right? And I, I don't think as large systems, we've seen it come together perfectly, but we've seen it in small relationships, smaller organizations, collective efforts for, for our communities. Like we've seen what happens when we come together, and I recognize that as a place of power.

And so I think. When I listened to the testimonies of the people that you interviewed, it felt like they too were tapped into that. You know, I know this is gonna be difficult, but it feels worth it, and I think everyone was pretty clear-eyed about why they are in the fight and why they wanna continue the fight and why it feels worth it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: You were there. Like what did you think and feel?

Andrew: Yeah, it was inspiring and I mean, you know, so much of my work with Integrated Schools has been done virtually. You and I get together virtually. Our leadership team gets together on Zoom. People are spread all over the place, and every time we get a chance to actually be together in the same place, I think about, you know, the weekend in May and in DC this weekend was really special just to like all be in the same place. We threw a little party on Friday at the hotel, went out to dinner with a bunch of Integrated Schools folks. It was just really special to all be in the same place.

And it was a reminder to me of the importance of doing that because virtual gatherings are better than no gatherings and are nothing compared to actually sharing space with people and sharing a meal together and then to, to do that in, in the midst of so much turmoil, but still see all these people who, I mean, nobody, nobody stumbled. When I asked them, you know, why do you care about school integration? Everybody immediately knew what their ‘why’ was. Everybody immediately knew why they got into this work in the first place.

And I think reconnecting to that in the midst of all this turmoil was really powerful And really, you know, inspiring to me to see so many different people who are engaged in this work in so many different ways, who are all kind of coming at it from a different angle, from youth participation to people who are teaching future teachers and school leaders to people who are doing research, people who are involved in activism, like all of those various things.

And I'm sure there's plenty of things that those people don't agree on. You know, there are charter school folks there and there are magnet school folks there, and there are people who are working at the Department of Education. All these people who, who, I'm sure there are places where there is disagreement, but everybody was there, really focused on this vision of what could a true like multiracial education system look like and what would that give us? And I think everybody kind of tapped into that vision and being in the same shared space with everybody helped everybody do that I think.

Dr. Val: What you just said made me think about our guest and the keynote, Michelle Adams talking about the soul force, right? Like everyone there plays a role. It does not have to be the same role, but we have to be moving collectively in the same direction. And because I too also worked virtually and built community virtually for a very long time. Those bonds are real. We cannot doubt them like they are strong. It's people that I've never met across the world that I am all in for. Right. And when you get together, it feels like you've known each other forever and…

Andrew: You’re like, wow, you're so much taller than I thought, but…

Dr. Val: Right, because of that little box. That's right. Exactly. And so it is a wonderful experience and I wanna encourage people to do that. I think to be able to have that opportunity to be in community, even if it's not, you know, for your work, but certainly in the organizations where you volunteer, obviously in your, in the school, in what your young people attend, that is a way to build that true community.

And for me, it has helped muffle some of the noise that's out there that would force me to believe that we don't have that community, that there aren't people who are working toward the same goal.

Andrew: Yeah. Voices in favor of a multiracial education system right now are, are not super loud and are getting drowned out by the other side. And, you know, something that a number of people mentioned in those interviews was like the need to show up, to speak up, to speak loudly in favor of this moment to say why it's important. I think about Whitney from North Carolina talking about that her faith means she also has to do work. That you…

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: …can’t just have faith. You actually have to do the work to, to like , bring the faith to fruition. I think about Nyah, talking about kind of the generations of Black people, of Black families, of, you know, she particularly called out Black women that she feels like she's sort of inheriting this legacy from and feels like a real obligation to. That there is, like you said, we're in a new version of something that has been going on for a long time, and so there is hope that could be drawn from the work that has gone before.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I think the people who have experienced this before, remember what this moment is like and are, we should seek wisdom from them. And what we also need to do is be really intentional about the ways in which we're talking to our children about this so they don't have to learn the same lessons over and over again. Right.

And I'm sure it's hard to talk about those moments, right? Those desegregation moments in the fifties and sixties and the racism you might have felt in the seventies and eighties and the nineties, right? Those might be difficult things to talk about, and yet if we don't talk about them, then people don't see the need to continue to stay vigilant in our efforts. And so, my hope for all of our listeners is that you are having explicit conversations, of course, age appropriate with your children about what is happening. You can say, “Hey, in our government, we have these certain offices that help in different ways. One of them is the Department of Education.”

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: … “And everybody just got fired from there. How do you feel about education? Do you think the country should care about education?” Like there's conversations that you can have with your children that will help them develop their critical consciousness and their critical thinking around these issues so that they are not caught as new voters unaware of the importance of some of these institutions and don't believe politicians when they say they're gonna dismantle them.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. I think the other piece of that is, it, to say that the Department of Education is an important institution that helps push education forward, is not the same thing as saying that it achieved its mission and we want to go back to the version of education that we had before the Department of Education was dismantled. Right? The Department of Education was doing important work and we need it to do better work to continue to push closer to the sort of ideal version of education. I think it's easy to get caught up in defending these institutions as if they have not also, had their problems and had their challenges.

And, I think the answer can't be to just get rid of all these institutions because we know what education looked like before there was a Department of Education. And it was certainly not equitable. It was certainly not multiracial. It was certainly not pushing us towards being a true multiracial democracy. And we can acknowledge the challenges that education has without the need to then dismantle all of the systems and structures that have supported it.

Dr. Val: Yeah. For folks, especially White folks who might be feeling helpless right now, who might be really caught in their feelings around seeing their beloved institutions fall to the wayside. Two things. One, the institutions didn't always work for everyone. And two, there's hope plus action that we can take to create new systems that are the ones that we want anyway.

Andrew: Yeah. It makes me think of something that Etai said that what we see now is a product of policies and practices and choices and we could make other choices and you know, we're in a moment where certainly my hope for federal level policies from the government that are going to push people to make different choices is pretty low.

But that doesn't mean that as individuals we are powerless. We all have choices about where we want to live, about how we want to interact with our neighbors, about where we wanna send our kids to school, about how we want to interact with our school communities. And those are all things that we can take right now in this moment of turmoil, in this moment of challenge from the federal government to even basic principles of should we have a Department of Education much less should we have multiracial education. We still have individual decisions that we can make that are opting towards justice, that are opting towards equity that are moving the needle in our own ways. We have an opportunity to do something different, to believe in the power of love and justice, as Scott Smith at the end said, you know that there, there is a world, not without darkness, but with less greed, with less…

Dr. Val: Mmmmm.

Andrew: …fear, with less suspicion, with more trust, with more generosity. And the other real beauty of being in community with people is that it is in those spaces that it's easier to see that vision when you're with a group of people who are committed to this idea of better world out there. It's easier to see what that world could look like.

Dr. Val: So we wanna encourage you to, to stay in community. It's really easy to isolate yourself in this moment and lose track that other people are there with you. Just because people aren't loud does not mean they're not working, there's lots of different ways that our resistance can take shape.

Andrew: Right now you have to dig even a little deeper because people who are resisting are also, in some places doing it quietly doing it not to attract attention, but doing it to advance justice. And so it takes even a little more work to go and search out those people, but it's worth it if you can get into community with people who are like-minded, who are committed to a better version of the world.

Dr. Val: Yeah, and I, I would argue that loving one another when right now we're designed to hate one another is a very important act of resistance. And that is within our control and something that we can do better each day.

Andrew: Absolutely. And if you are finding ways to focus on love in trying times, if you're finding ways to get into community, we want to hear about it. Speakpipe.com/integratedschools or go to our website integratedschools.org. Click the leave us a voicemail button.

Dr. Val: And if you have the means to contribute to the Integrated Schools Podcast, we encourage you to do so. Please know that all proceeds go to making sure the podcast and Integrated Schools runs, so that we can continue providing these opportunities for you to learn and grow. You can donate on our website@integratedschools.org. There's a big red button on there that you can press that says donate. We appreciate all donations.

Andrew: You can also join our patreon, patreon.com/integratedschools. Or if you're listening on Apple, join IS Plus on Apple Podcasts, a small monthly contribution, and you get some bonus features every now and then. We just released the extended unedited version of the interview with Eve Ewing on there, so if that's something that appeals to you and you're able, we'd appreciate your support that way as well.

Dr. Val: Continue to listen, to share, to have study groups about what you're learning. Do not do this learning in isolation. That is a sure way to, to stop progress. And we know that progress happens when we move together.

Andrew: Absolutely, even though it's virtual Val, it is special to get to come together with you and talk about these things and be in community with you. I'm very grateful for it, as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.