S10E8 – A Conversation with the Assistant Secretary of Education

Asst. Sec Rodriguez

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I am Val, Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is “A Conversation with the Assistant Secretary of Education.”

Dr. Val: Like of the whole country, y'all!

Andrew: That’s of the country, Val, as of the whole, the Department of Education for the federal government, he's on our podcast!

Dr. Val: We're a big deal! [both laughing]

Andrew: We're kind of a big deal. That's, it is exciting.

Dr. Val: We'll get to that. But it's a new year.

Andrew: It is a new year. Happy 2024.

Dr. Val: New year, new us. That’s it.

Andrew: It is 2024. We are back. We had a nice little break. And we're ready to dive in for some more great conversations here. Tying into our themes for the season… the importance of public schools, the power of storytelling, the power of proximity, and being in community and stamina.

Dr. Val: Whew. And those are big themes, and I think that we have touched on them throughout the year. And I think once you name something, once you put it out there, you start to see it a little bit more. And so, I'm really excited that we have this guest who can kind of tie a lot of those things together for us today.

Andrew: Yes, absolutely. The Assistant Secretary of Education for the country, Roberto Rodriguez. Val, how did this interview come to be?

Dr. Val: [laughing] I'm kind of a big deal, I appreciate secretary Rodriguez for coming on. We met at a convening around supporting bipartisan support for public education and during that time I was able to learn about the work that the Department of Education was doing around fostering diverse schools, a grant that they had. So I heard him talk about this and I said, ‘Hey, I have a place where you can talk about it.’[starts laughing]

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: ‘Do you wanna come on our podcast?’ And surprisingly he said, yes. But that just goes to show you if I, you know, if I'm passing out best friend contracts, there’s a very good chance magic will happen.

Andrew: That's a valuable contract. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting to think about the role of the federal government. We talk a lot about local control of schools and, you know, that's been wielded by all sorts of people for nefarious ends along the way.

But there is certainly a role for the federal government to play. I think it's interesting to hear his perspective on what role the federal government can play in pushing the things that they view as important, and what tools do they have?

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely. And I think this opens the door for a nuanced conversation around everyone's role in this work, and I'm looking forward to getting into it.

Andrew: Alright. Should we take a listen?

Dr. Val: Let's listen.

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Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: I'm so glad to be with you. I'm Roberto Rodriguez and I am the Assistant Secretary here at the US Department of Education for Planning, Evaluation and Policy Development. And I'm so pleased to be part of the podcast today. I want to thank you and your listeners for engaging in this discussion.

Andrew: Yeah. We're glad to have you. Tell us a little bit about your journey to this place. Why education as a focus for your career, and why policy and how'd you end up in the government?

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Sure. Well, I've been working in public service and in education policy for the better part of my career, over 20 years. I'm really honored to be serving in this position in the Biden-Harris administration. I had a chance to also lead our policy development at the White House for President Obama during both of his terms, and also worked in the Senate for the former Senator Ted Kennedy.

But ultimately, you know, I started my journey as an advocate for educational equity and for educational opportunity. I started that journey here in Washington, DC at an organization called Unidos US. And really focused on how to support civil rights and address opportunity for our Latino communities around the country.

And, you know, that mission around equity and excellence for me really runs deep in my blood and in my family. So, my parents are both public school educators. I grew up in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And, you know, a lot of conversations around the kitchen table and in the back of boardrooms when I was younger about what opportunity and what equity looks like for our kids. How does that manifest itself in our communities? How can we do more and do better, to provide that opportunity for more of our students? So, those examples of public education, of civic engagement and of public service, really were brought to me from my family.

Andrew: There is, there is always a family story, right? Like so many people we talk to, it's like, oh, well my mom, oh my dad. I had this conversation when I was like, I was sixth grade in this thing. There's always that sort of connection. I think we talk a lot about the power of, you know, having these conversations about telling kids about the work that we're doing, about, you know, the importance of this work and, and the power that I can have on them. So it sounds like that, that had a role in your life.

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Yeah, that was really fundamental to me.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm. Awesome.

Andrew: So this is the Integrated Schools podcast. We talk about school integration.

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Yeah.

Andrew: Broadly speaking, how do you personally and then maybe sort of, you know, at the Department of Education, think about the value of integration as sort of a tool for, for equity for these values that you, came to from a young age.

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Yeah, well, I'll just start there, Andrew, with my own lived experience, right. You know, I grew up in a court ordered desegregation district in Grand Rapids. So, you know, I grew up in an elementary school that was in its journey around desegregation and where I had the opportunity to learn alongside a diverse group of peers, other Latino students, White students, African American students in my community.

Of course, you know, when you're in the first and second grade, you don't fully appreciate and understand the value of that. But over time, as I've looked back, and as I grew older in my community, I really began to understand in a more salient way what equity looks like, what inequity looks like relative to where you live in the city, relative to the opportunities provided to you, relative to where you were able to go to school.

So it's a personal journey for me. I will say that I am really honored to work for an administration that has made school diversity such an important priority since day one. We've carried in our policy proposals and in our budget proposals for the Biden Harris administration, a new investment around fostering school diversity that would help to support creating schools that more intentionally are diverse by design. And also that help to support and meet our district leaders in their journey around school diversity.

And we have such a dynamic coalition of school districts and school leaders around the country that are committed to this cause, that understand that school diversity and combating segregation can be a really important bridge to greater funding equity for our student, a bridge to more experienced educators, a bridge to the rigorous courses and coursework that they'll need to succeed. So for us, it is more than just having diverse students sitting next to one another in a classroom. It's about the resources and the opportunity that follow that, that lead to success.

Dr. Val: mm-hmm. I love that.

Andrew: Yeah, that's great. And so this is the Fostering Diverse Schools grants. And I know there was just $10 million allocated in the last budget. You just awarded some of those grants out. Talk a little bit about that program and kind of, you know, what, what the hope is with it. And maybe, a couple of the organizations who maybe won some of those grants and what they're up to.

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: We're really excited about the chance to move this piece forward. We had the opportunity to put forth 14 grants under our new Fostering Diverse Schools program. I should note first, this is not a program that is formally part of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act. It is a program that our administration, that the Secretary and the President asked Congress to make possible.

So the grants that we're moving forward are both to support some districts that have already begun a journey around thinking about more intentionally diverse schools, to expand that effort, to think about how that connects up to issues around transportation, how it connects up to other resources, other patterns of opportunity in their, in their district.

And the second part of that is to really support new districts who are taking on this charge for the first time. So we are awarding grants to districts like Winston-Salem in North Carolina, right? Who is…

Dr. Val: That’s right!

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Yeah, we're really excited about that. And they're beginning to look at analyzing their data in new ways around patterns of segregation across the district.

We're awarding grants to organizations like the Maryland State Department of Education, and there they have a plan both to develop new plans for desegregation, as well as to put into place and implement those new plans by bringing together five districts across the state to think together about those efforts.

And if you look at the benefits of even inter-district opportunities that we've seen, we've seen kind of pioneering districts like Boston and some other outer suburb districts work together in programs like METCO for that effort. We think that's really exciting and important. And we've seen places like East Baton Rouge who are another grantee that is gonna be expanding their existing plans around desegregation.

So, you know, our goal here is to foster a stronger role at the federal level to support this work. And we know we have to do that intentionally. We know that some of the backsliding that we've seen - you know, you look at the seventies and the eighties and you look at the fact that achievement gaps, you know, for our Black and White students in, in many of those decades narrowed, right? That is not a coincidence to the work that was underway very intentionally with policies and with practices at the district level. As I was growing up in school, for instance, around how we think about equity and actively combating segregation in the wake of Brown V Board.

We have as a country, over the last several decades, we've, we have not kept pace. In fact, we've lost ground relative to combating segregation, relative to Brown V Board's promise. So we feel we really have to get back at that… this, these grants are part of that effort. And they're part of the stronger leadership we're seeing at the local level to try to really address integration in a more active way.

Dr. Val: I am curious about some of the early lessons that you've learned, even from the applicants. What are you learning that people are trying out in the world in different states and communities?

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Yeah. Thanks, Val. I mean, I think, you know, we're seeing more intentional collection and analysis of data. Who across a district has access to rigorous courses particularly in math and in science? Where are those opportunities concentrated within a district? In what schools and for which students?

I think we're seeing a look at how transportation can play a role in supporting more active desegregation. And one of the things we did back in May in my office is to release a new report that looks at many of the federal efforts underway here at the Department of Education around more diverse by design schools.

We made clear in that report that Title I is an important effort and can be an important funding stream for supporting transportation to support more integration in more diverse by design schools. So that was the first time that the department's ever kind of said that we think that's an important piece. And we're seeing a number of applicants really think more actively about the transportation piece.

And where, where I'd like to go is also to see the housing piece also be addressed. Again, this is really a, you know, when we look at some of the patterns of racial isolation in our schools, they are products of bigger patterns of racial isolation and housing and in transportation.

And so there's a potential for the, for a more comprehensive effort to fit together there. So that's more of an aspiration. I'm not sure this current cohort of grantees has quite gotten there yet, but I think there's a potential to go there.

The other thing that I'd flag is that we really view these grantees as opportunities to move forward as an on-ramp to some of the other federal streams of support to continue this work even beyond the Fostering Diverse Schools program. So for instance, we've expanded our Magnet Schools program here at the Department of Education. We awarded $92 million in this past cycle around magnet schools. And we'd love to get a more robust and diverse pool of applicants applying and taking on that strategy too.

Dr. Val: Yeah, awesome.

Andrew: Yeah, thanks. I'm curious about kind of the, the federal government's role in pushing for things like desegregation, like integration. We believe in local control of school districts. There is a long history of that that I think has been, you know, sometimes served communities well and sometimes been used as a way to, increase racial isolation, increase segregation.

How do you think about kind of the, the federal government's role? What are the tools that you have? Where, where do you come up against the limits of, that local control piece?

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Right. Well that's, you know, that is the fundamental question there, Andrew, that I think, we certainly wrestle with here. And I know a lot of our communities that are working intentionally around addressing racial and socioeconomic isolation, they wrestle with that too.

This is fundamentally a local, a local effort, right? I mean, there is not a federal imperative around requiring our districts to create plans that combat racial and socioeconomic isolation. So what we've tried to do is to open the aperture here at the federal level as an opportunity for districts who are committed to that, who see the intentionality of connecting the dots between more diverse schools and greater learning opportunities for students. See the connection between that and closing their persistent and pernicious achievement gaps. See the connection between that and the value of diversity in teaching and in learning and in fostering a more pluralistic community in their cities. But that is a voluntary effort, right? That's an invitation.

Now we also have important responsibilities here at the Department of Education to enforce our civil rights laws, right, to make sure that, you know, Title VI and Title IX, IDEA, other laws are being enforced to their full extent, so that we are both fulfilling the duty that we have to make sure that no student faces discrimination in their learning. And also to make sure that we're remedying efforts and aspects of discrimination.

So often in that respect, we see a number of communities that come around to the benefits of diversity and the benefits of rethinking their policies and their strategies to tackle that racial isolation, tackle that socioeconomic isolation. Those two pieces go hand in hand. Right, because we know that three out of five of our Black and Latino students are attending schools that are still really segregated where three quarters of students are students of color in those schools, and yet only 6% of our White students attend those schools.

We know that racial isolation goes hand in hand with that socioeconomic isolation. Those are our low income schools. Those are our schools that are less likely to have the resources to provide experienced and effective teachers have the resources to provide that diverse curriculum and that rigorous curriculum.

Dr. Val: One thing that Andrew and I try to model is just the nuance that's required, and the humanity that's required in these conversations, right? We know that no one's doing it perfectly, but we're all trying. So how do you hope some of these systems and districts serve as a model to their states and to their other local districts about how you can do this work, even if it's difficult?

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Yeah, that's great, Val. I mean, I'll just say that I've been really moved and inspired by districts that have come together and both thought about moving what had previously been pretty entrenched policies in their district toward this end, as well as by schools who are starting from scratch to think more actively about diversity by design.

So, you know, I've had the chance to visit with leaders at the Century Foundation, for instance, and other schools that have come together and thought about that. And, you know, those are really beacons of what's possible. They're beacons of innovation to think about, okay, even though our district has been doing this the same way, we have the opportunity to rethink transportation resources, we have the opportunity to rethink how we are investing in our calculus and our advanced physics and science courses and our humanities courses in ways that reach more students and reach more diverse students. You know, we're seeing the opportunity to do that around the country. So I think that's a real, that's a real opportunity too.

And, third, I'd say, you know, thinking about data in new ways, right? Starting to collect that data and that data transparency and the opportunity for the public to see that data and to come together around what does that mean for our students? What does that mean for our students of color in our communities? What does that mean for our low-income students in our communities? You know, it. It provides the chance to have a new public dialogue. And to your point, Val, to really bring communities together in a more deep and thoughtful way about how we move together forward.

And, and I think one of the most important pieces of this is also that this, this doesn't have to be a zero sum equation, right? So we have to really have that conversation with our local leaders, with our community leaders and our parents, so that they can understand that, you know, a: there's just a huge benefit to diversity and to tackling these patterns of racial and socioeconomic isolation. And it's a benefit, not just for some, it's really a benefit for all.

And there's the ability to do that in a way where you know, students aren't losing, students are gaining together and that we're stronger together. You know, that the diversity of our country is our greatest strength. I believe deeply in that, you know, as a fundamental principle. I also believe that, that principle reaches and resonates and reverberates in our communities because I think our parents believe that too. I think when you show them the way forward there to create that in a way that is a value add, you know, it enriches the fabric of our communities and the lives of our kids.

So I think those are the conversations I hope we can start to have, you know, and, and our federal investments are just a small piece of that, but that's the conversation our country needs to, needs to have in a more intentional way.

Dr. Val: Mm-Hmm.

Andrew: Just, just to close, can you sort of, you paint, paint a picture for us. We, we've been talking this season about the power of storytelling, the power of public schools, the power of community you know, in, in the event that the best version, your most hopeful version of fostering diverse schools, we get maybe get some more money in the next fiscal year budget that these sort of programs grow, that these conversations that you're talking about happen, you know, kind of what, what does the country look like? What is the world that we could create if we are committed to this, if we really invest in it?

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Right. That… I love that question, Andrew. I would just say first and foremost, it's important to acknowledge we're at a tough time, you know, in, in our country. The conversations that are being had around education, I find you know, as they're being covered in the media are largely contentious moments that we're seeing rise to the headlines.There are moments of tension. There are moments where we're not reaching beyond this kind of zero sum equation.

So part of the hope here, not just with our Fostering Diverse Schools program, but with the totality of the arc of our investments in what our Secretary calls “raise the bar, lead the world” in our charge to, you know, support great educators in all of our classrooms, to support the opportunity to provide a world class rigorous and relevant, education and to turn the corner on academic recovery in this post pandemic world, and the opportunity to think about the career pathways and college pathways all of our students need. Encapsulated in that is the chance to really, you know, aspire to an education system that delivers opportunity for all right, regardless of your zip code, your background, the language you speak at home, where you grow up. To have the opportunity for all of our students to be successful and to have a system that is funded and calibrated in public education to deliver on that.

And I'm excited about that because our communities believe in their public schools. They trust their public educators and they trust their public schools to be places of opportunity. They trust their kids, the most precious resource we have in our country to, to the teachers in our public education system to nurture and support and grow their learning, but also to support their social and emotional wellbeing, to support their opportunities to learn about who they are, as they, as they develop, and learn alongside their peers, to develop those civic hallmarks that are so important to our country.

So if we think about our public schools as really the first laboratory of democracy, I think it's really important for us to rally all of our resources, all of our support as a country around that effort.

And our Fostering Diverse Schools is a great example of how to get that done. But we're not gonna get there without also making the investments we need, you know, across our system here at the federal level in Title I, and Title II, and Title III for our English learners, in supporting the safety and wellbeing of our kids. The bipartisan Safer Communities Act takes a really important step forward there. But I'm inspired and excited because I see communities coming together around that. Despite all of what we see in the headlines around some of the divisive debates and discussions, our communities are ready to step up in support of our public education system. And, and our charge here at the federal level is to meet them there in that, and be a partner in that charge.

Andrew: That's, that's beautiful.

Dr. Val: Thank you so much!

Andrew: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time, for, for all of the work that's happening there. We definitely look forward to, to seeing more and what comes next and yeah, just really grateful for your time and for coming on the show.

Asst. Sec. Rodriguez: Oh, it's been fun. Thank you so much, and thanks to the podcast for all your coverage and your work.

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Andrew: So, Val, what did you think?

Dr. Val: Well, my favorite part of all of these interviews is we get to know our guests just on a personal level, just a little bit. Right? And their journey to this point in their work never feels accidental. There's always some… a loving adult, typically a parent or a caregiver, who played a role in supporting them or modeling for them to get them to this point in their lives. And so I value that deeply because it makes change feel possible from an everyday standpoint. Right. And so as caregivers and parents, we can model and talk about and live out the values that we want our young people to adopt. And in, in those instances, it's really nice that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Andrew: Yeah. I think about the theme of stamina. It's one of those things that I think makes it a little easier to keep going when the work feels hard. It's not like there was one moment where his parents sat him down and they were like, okay, look, here is your life path. You know, it doesn't happen in an instant. It's a series of small moments over and over again. It's the fact of the work that they were doing, the things that they cared about, things that they were passionate about and the fact that they were sharing that with him along the way.

And who knows, where it was going to lead. But, I certainly take comfort in that idea that, like, if you're doing work that you feel is important and you're sharing it with your kids and you're showing them, leading by example, that, that, you know, you put your values first and that you spend your time and your energy on things that are important, then they are gonna see that, and that is gonna be a value that they will take on.

And so in those moments where it's like, ‘oh God, this again’, it's like, okay, well, but look, if nothing else, what I'm doing in this moment is continuing to lay that foundation for my children to take and move forward with.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And I don't know how many conversations you've had where your kids are like, oh, not this again. But I haven't had any where they're like that. Right. And I'm sure you have any, like, I mean, if I ask them to clean their room, it's like, oh, this again you know? But if I sit down and, and talk to them about our values, or their country, or the country's history or our family's history, you know, they're always open and excited to, to learn more about that. And so, I wanna encourage parents and caregivers to, as Secretary Rodriguez did with his parents, sit down at the kitchen table occasionally and talk about what's going on.

And, I'm always thinking about the idea of civic engagement. Right. That was, that was one of the ideas that his parents talked to him about growing up, civic engagement and our responsibility to be active citizens and participants in creating the world that we want. And that obviously is part of his story and why he ended up where he is today.

Right? He saw that it was his responsibility to act. And I think you and I feel that same responsibility and I think it's okay that our actions look different obviously, than the Secretary of Education, and they will look different based on where we are in our communities and what our talents are, right? But what should remain constant for everyone is a sense of responsibility to act on behalf of creating the world that they wanna see.

Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, he works for the federal government. He works in the Department of Education. It's easy to sort of think of like, well, like he's in charge. It must be his problem to fix.

Dr. Val: Hmm. Hmm.

Andrew: I think, you know, what, what we talked about a little bit in the conversation as well is like this and this idea of, of local control, is that we really do have a bunch of small systems of education strewn across the country. Lots and lots and lots of them. And the role of the federal government, while important, is also limited. And so, you know, he talks at the end there about, you know, he, the, the federal government, he feels his role is to, to be able to step up in support of education, to partner with communities.

The federal government has a role to play for sure, but they need to partner with communities. And the only way they can partner with communities is if communities are also stepping up to say, here's what we think is important, here's what we'd like our schools to look like, here's the support we need and the help we need in order to make that possible. I think that's where the lens kind of shifts back to everyday people like us is like, well what are we doing to kind of be ready to be a partner in, in moving things forward when the time's right.

Dr. Val: Yeah. No, I'm glad you're, you're bringing that up. I'm sure there are instances where I assumed that someone else was going to fix a problem. Right. And so thank you for reminding me and our listeners that, it's not always going to be someone else who is going to fix that problem alone.

My kids and I were on a walk one day and there was a fire hydrant that had opened up, and so I'm like, ‘this is a problem.’ You know, I'm walking by. I got a cell phone, I'm a concerned citizen. Let me call the fire department. So I called the fire department. I picked the wrong one, they transferred me to another one. I ended up having to call three fire departments in order to let someone know that this fire hydrant had opened up.

But in that process, not only were we not the only ones who walked by, other people walked by and like, didn't say anything, didn't see it was their problem. But in that process, I was able to tell the kids like, ‘Hey, sometimes it's gonna be you.’ Like you're going to be the one to see a problem. And then have to take some steps to find some help to get it fixed, right? And it won't always be convenient. It might be difficult, it could be easier to turn your head to the problem. But I want you to feel some responsibility in doing that for your community.

And that's one of the things that I heard and felt in his comments, right? He knows that in his role, in the federal government, what he has the ability to do is to help create conditions and to advocate for some dollars, right? Some dollars towards the efforts of school diversity programs. Right? And so he's gonna take the steps to do that, but the districts and the different educational agencies have to meet them, right? They have to apply, they have to show that they care and they wanna do this. That means people in their neighborhoods and their schools have to say, this is what we care about. This is what we wanna do.

And so knowing that we're all interconnected and that we all have a role is something that I'm thinking about after this conversation. Because there have to be teachers and, and parents and communities who are, are enacting these efforts. Um, even with the dollars.

Andrew: Yeah. And that can be frustrating. You know, like it's frustrating to have to call three separate fire departments and, so people often give up and they're like, I'm not gonna actually make a change. You know, if you had called the first fire department, they're like, yeah, we're not the right ones. You'd be like, all right, whatever. I tried, but I'm done. I'm, I'm moving on. And like, yeah, you can't throw yourself all the way into every problem that exists out there 'cause, you know, there's, there are plenty and time is limited, but I think that that idea that you're gonna keep at it, you're gonna keep trying. And maybe you don't see, you know, to come back to this sort of, you know, hope that we've talked about, you don't maybe necessarily see exactly what the outcomes look like, and you don't actually get to the place where you're advocating for school integration and then all the schools are integrated. Like I don't think either of us are naive enough to think that we are going to see truly multiracial education leading to multiracial democracy in our lifetimes.

And, and yet, like it's important that everybody does the work because it's, it's in that day to day small decisions, it's in those, those moment to moment choices where you can either look away or look at it square, square in the face and decide to do something about it and move the needle a little bit, that we can build capacity, build the muscles to be able to move things forward.

And then, you know, it could, sometimes big leaps happen and sometimes there's an important Supreme Court case or there's an important decision made by the federal government or by your local school board or something, that, that can make things step forward, but the only way those are possible is if there is that sort of on the ground partnership that is, that's constantly pushing along.

Dr. Val: Yeah. You know, I'm, I'm getting some goosebumpy feelings because when we came back from our walk, the fire hydrant was fixed.

Andrew: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Val: Like we never, like interacted, we never saw the work. There was never like an acknowledgement that…

Andrew: You didn't get an award, you didn’t get a medal?

Dr. Val: No, I didn't, I didn't get an award… and not even acknowledgement for me, I was thinking like acknowledgement, that we worked together to solve this problem. And, and that made me think about the ways in which some of these communities are using their dollars. And he mentioned one in North Carolina and one in Maryland. People won't know, like the beneficiaries of the work that has happened won't know, you know, why they have this opportunity or what happened to create this opportunity. They'll just be able to benefit from it. And that just, that feels re that's like a, that's, that's goosebumpy to me. Cause I think it’s really cool…

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Val: …to, to do the work and be behind the scenes and people benefit and they never know. But because of the opportunities that they'll have hopefully they'll be able to make better choices for their families and their communities and, and that feels like important work.

Andrew: There, there's some first grader in Maryland who's gonna go to a slightly different school with slightly different kids and be exposed to slightly different ideas and slightly different people from different backgrounds and experiences, and that's going to shape their life in some way.

And you think about, again, to come back to this idea of what conditions do we create for our kids? What choices do we make? Where do we put our kids? How do we spend our time? And then what, what do we model for them? That kid is gonna have a different experience and then that's gonna lead them into a different sort of life path.

And yeah, like , is that kid gonna write a letter to Secretary Rodriguez and say, thank you for your work on the Fostering Diverse Schools grant back in 2024? Like, probably not, but, but there will be those sort of ripples of those things. And you don't know what the ripples are gonna be. You don't know what the impact is going to be. And so, so if you sit around and wait for the right moment to do the one thing that you're sure is gonna have the right ripple effect, then you're, you're just gonna be sitting around waiting all the time.

And if you go through every day and sort of say, well, what's, what's the thing that I can do today? How do I sort of live into my values today and live into my values tomorrow and live into my values the next day and talk about it then like, yeah, you know, who knows where those ripples might end up.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Yeah. And I often associate ripples with good action. But there, there are things that can ripple out that are bad, right? And so I do think we have to be intentional, and that's something that the secretary talked about as well, like the federal government is saying like, we wanna be intentional around supporting these efforts and we would love more money, but we will do what we can while we can. And we'll try to try to move the needle a little bit and support communities who are doing this work.

Andrew: Yeah. There are lots of communities out there. I think they awarded grants to 12 organizations or something. We'll have a list in the show notes you can check out.

Dr. Val: I would love to have some of those folks on to talk about their efforts.

Andrew: Yes, if you're listening and you're one of those organizations, hit us up… podcast@integratedschools.org. We would love to have you on to talk about the work you're doing.

I think the Department of Education will be asking for even more money. So there's also probably a role for folks to call their Congress people and, and talk about, you know, the importance of this, that, that they should be in favor of spending some more money on Fostering Diverse Schools.

Dr. Val: Yeah. You know, I, I'm always thinking about ways I can contribute once I age out of school. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be a crossing guard… check. I'm gonna care about school lunches… check. And I can also be a person who calls my congressperson and say, ‘Hey, I would love some funding for our local schools.’ Right? Because you know, caregivers and parents who are in the thick of it, they don't always have time to do that. And so they need us to…

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: …advocate on behalf of them.

Andrew: Yep. Yeah, yeah, for

Dr. Val: Look, I'm gonna be a busy, retired person. Okay?

Andrew: You're gonna be, yeah, for real, for real. Super grateful to the Assistant Secretary, for coming on for, you know, sharing about the work that's going on there. Pretty cool to, have somebody in that role be willing to come on and talk to little old us, you know.

Dr. Val: Yeah, no, absolutely. And, and thank you to all of his team and everyone else who's working together on this effort. We know it's not a single person who's doing the work, so thank you for the folks who advocated for the grant, have organized it, administered it, implementing it. There's lots, lots of people behind that.

Andrew: Yes.And, we've got some great stuff on the horizon. One of the things we are working on where we need your help. listeners, is a series on Brown versus Board of Education. May will be the 70th anniversary. There may be a live show coming up in Washington, DC. Just a little tease. We'll let you know more about that…

Dr. Val: Cannot wait.

Andrew: …as the details come together. But we are working on a whole series about the Brown anniversary. Listeners may remember, five years ago Courtney and I did one on the 65th anniversary. Definitely worth going back and checking those out. And we're looking for a whole new sort of series of episodes looking at Brown 70 years later. And what we need from you listeners, is your stories. What is your connection to Brown? Do you have people in your life who were directly impacted? I would argue actually everybody was directly impacted in some way. But are there people who are, there in, in the midst of it and have stories to tell? We want to hear your voice memos, if you've got a, an elder in your life who lived through some of that, and you wanna ask them some questions, grab your phone, hit that voice memos button and record up a conversation. Send it to us. We'd be really grateful. We wanna hear from you. Send those over to podcast@integratedschools.org or go to our website, hit the, leave us a voicemail button.

Dr. Val: Yeah. In addition, please ask us your questions. So if you have questions that you want us to dig into while we're talking about the 70th anniversary, ask them and we can try to reach out to our very special friends to get some wicked smart answers if Andrew and I can't answer them ourselves. We really want your engagement in this particular series of shows, because it's so central to actually the work that we're doing here. So…

Andrew: Yeah,

Dr. Val: …don't hesitate.

Andrew: Absolutely. We'd be grateful for that. And of course, grateful for your ongoing support. We've got a number of new patrons, uh, which is very exciting.

Dr. Val: Oh, that is exciting. Thank you.

Andrew: patreon.com/integratedschools. If you can throw us a few bucks every month to help keep this work going, we would be very grateful for that.

Dr. Val: That's right. And then of course, we want you to continue to listen to our episodes and share them with people, widely, and talk about the learning that you are experiencing here on the podcast. We are trying to continue to build this community, and get more people on board with these ideas.

Andrew: Absolutely. Val, thank you for bringing the Assistant Secretary of Education of the country, y'all, onto the podcast. Um, it's really, it was a treat to get to be in conversation with him. It is always a treat to get to be in conversation with you.

Dr. Val: That's the sound of me brushing off my shoulder. I don't know if the people can hear it.

Andrew: Listen carefully, you'll hear Val dusting her shoulders off. Uh, really grateful to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time, friend.