S10E3 – There Goes the Neighborhood with Jade Adia

S10E3 - There Goes The Neighborhood

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is There Goes the Neighborhood with Jade Adia.

We have an amazing conversation to share today about gentrification with a young adult fiction author. And Val, I am really looking forward to sharing this conversation. “There goes the neighborhood.” It is a loaded phrase. What does it make you think?

Dr. Val: So, when I hear that phrase, I'm always thinking that it's someone who has been established in a neighborhood who sees a newcomer who might not understand the neighborhood's culture, or might be too loud, or park their car on the wrong part of the street. Just someone who doesn't actually belong.

And as I'm thinking about that, I think that person in my mind who says “There goes the neighborhood,” also is a person I see is willing to fight for the neighborhood. For it to, to stay home for them. How about you? When you hear “There goes the neighborhood,” what do you think?

Andrew: Yeah, I share all of those. And certainly prior to sharing the story that we're going to share today, the idea of “There goes the neighborhood” in my mind was associated with White people when a Black person moves in.

Dr. Val: Mm hmm.

Andrew: “Well, there goes the neighborhood. The neighborhood is on its way down and it's time for me to get out and head to the suburbs.”

Dr. Val: Yeah. Of course my, my first thought, unfortunately, was along racial lines. But, you know, now as a homeowner, I'm like, looking out my window to make sure my neighborhood's not going anywhere!

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Val: By whatever that means, right? So that's why I was trying to humanize a little bit the person that might have said that but yours is probably much more honest.

[Val and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: Well, no, I appreciate that! Because if, if our guest today does anything, it is humanize the people who are involved in changing neighborhoods. Um, so. So we were joined by Jade Adia. She wrote a young adult novel called “There Goes the Neighborhood.”

And the neighborhood that she is referring to is a neighborhood that is being gentrified in South L.A.

Dr. Val: And so, we had an opportunity to not only chat with her about the book itself, but also her own personal experiences that really fed into the narrative in a really cool way.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. It's the first time we've had a fiction writer on the podcast. Obviously, like, ties into so many of the themes that we talk about, but kind of taking a different approach to it.

So, we always try to start with some question about, you know, “What is it that led you to do the work that you do?” with all of our guests. And this was a particularly interesting story, I think, of the ways that her own biography, her own life growing up, and then kind of the position she found herself in in the pandemic led to writing her first novel.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And you know, one of our themes for the season is the power of storytelling, and in the story that she tells (both of her life and in her novel) we see how her educational experiences have impacted her, how her family experiences have impacted her, and all of those come together for a story that we can connect to, just on a human level.

Andrew: Absolutely. Yeah. And whether we're adults or, or youth, you know, I think the, the book is, is YA. The characters in the book are 15. It's the summer between their freshman and sophomore year, but the themes that she, she touches on (certainly about gentrification, but even more broadly about family, about community, about relationships, about change), all of these things feel very relevant to people of any age.

Dr. Val: Yeah, absolutely. Summer between ninth and tenth grade?

Andrew: Yeah, it's a fascinating time, as, as Jade points out. There's not a lot of YA that takes place in that kind of age range. Kids are usually older or younger, but as listeners will hear, the, the plot of the story really almost sort of requires kids being in that little transitional period where they're kind of old enough to know what's going on, but young enough to make some bad choices.

Dr. Val: Yeah. We tried to ask questions that didn't lead to too many spoilers.

Andrew: Yes. We hopefully did not give away anything major from the book. So you should get it and read it. And you should do that soon because “There Goes the Neighborhood” is the book club pick for Integrated Schools for the beginning of November.

If you go to IntegratedSchools.org/book-club, you can find out more information. The sessions are the first week of November. It's a really great time, well facilitated, small conversations. Come and join other people from all around the country to talk about this book because it's really an incredible book.

Dr. Val: And reading is always better when done with others. I think, for sure.

Andrew: Yes. Absolutely. Alright, should we take a listen to Jade?

Dr. Val: Let's do it!

Andrew: Alright, here's our talk with Jade Adia.

------------------------------------------

Jade Adia: My name is Jade Adia. I'm the author of “There Goes the Neighborhood” which is a young adult contemporary novel that came out in March of this year.

Andrew: And tell us your, your personal story a little bit. Your background. You grew up in L.A. You went to undergrad, you went to law school, and then–

Jade Adia: Mm hmm.

Andrew: –all of a sudden you find yourself writing a novel! Tell us about that story.

Jade Adia: Yeah! Yeah. So it was not a straightforward path. Like you said, like I was born and raised in L.A. and I grew up here and I grew up in a neighborhood that, although “There Goes the Neighborhood” is, like, completely fictional and I keep insisting to all of my family and friends, I'm like, “It's fake, I promise. I'm not talking about us!” but–

[Laughter]

Andrew: “It’s not you, it's not you.”

Jade Adia: Exactly! It's not you.

But I did grow up in a neighborhood that did have a similar vibe to the fictional neighborhood in the book, where it was a super, interconnected neighborhood where I kind of got to grow up with all of my neighbors having open door policies. Where I would just, like, walk into someone's house and then, like, have dinner and like someone's parent would pick us up and then we'll be like, “Okay, like, let's pick up six other kids who are around here.” Which I didn't realize was even that unique or special until I got much older, and I realized, oh, not everyone has a neighborhood where they walk around. They see everyone who they know, which even as a teenager can sometimes be super annoying or embarrassing. Where, like, you're trying to do stuff with your friends and get into trouble, but then, like, everyone's auntie is watching you, so you can't get away with anything!

[Laughter]

Dr. Val: I definitely had that experience yesterday. One of my younger neighbors, she was out standing away from her home talking to a gentleman friend.

Jade Adia: Mm hmm.

Dr. Val: And I was like, “Hi girl! I see you over there!”

Andrew: “I'm watching you!”

Jade Adia: “I see you!”

[Laughter]

Jade Adia: Exactly. Exactly. It's the, the blessings and the curses of being in like a really tight-knit neighborhood.

So I did grow up in, in LA and had that experience, but though I was always a really active reader and I loved books, I was not at all a kid who wanted to be a writer or anything like that at all. It all came together much later.

I went to college and I was studying, like, ethnicity and race and migration (so, doing an ethnic studies program), which was really important to me at the time, and I think kind of looking back kind of laid the foundation for a lot of stuff that I write about now. But I was really steeped in these issues about, like, racial justice and policing and poverty in America. But not thinking about creative writing at all.

And then I was working in schools for a while. I was doing some school based social work and case management, and had an amazing time working with the students, but I was working in a few particularly, like, high-need schools that had a lot of challenges with, like, meeting the needs of students and also unfortunately, like, a lot of issues with, like, policing and surveillance of their students as well. Which was difficult for me as a staff member who was not aligned with the way that these schools were treating the young people in those spaces.

So, kind of coming out of that environment, I was like, “I'm gonna go to law school, maybe that will help!” And I was, I got to law school, and I was like, “Oh no, this is not what I want to do!”

It's a great path for a lot of people. But as soon as I got there, I think I felt that this was making me feel further from the people I cared about rather than being closer. So it was really just kind of in this period of just being like, “Oh, I think I made a huge mistake going to law school,” and “I want to have these conversations but I don't want to have them in this way.” In this very academic, sometimes, like, often, like, elitist way that, like, cuts people out of conversations rather than bringing them in.

And then that plus a little pandemic/depression/quarantine stuff. And then I was like, “I think I'm going to try to write a book! I think I have all these feelings.”

Dr. Val: Wow!

Jade Adia: And that’s kind of very loosely how it led to starting to write again.

Dr. Val: Wow. That’s incredible.

Andrew: Yeah.

Jade Adia: Thank you. Yeah.

Dr. Val: I think I just ate with my pandemic depression.

[Laughter]

Andrew: It's like, yeah. Some snacks!

Jade Adia: I know. We were all doing our best and trying to figure it out. And I really think that most of it was because during the pandemic, during shut-down, I came back to my childhood home and I was quarantined with, like, my entire family. Like, with both of my sisters, my mom, my nephews, like, my, like, my brother-in-law.

Dr. Val: Oh, wow!

Jade Adia: We were all together.

So I was back in my childhood home, bored. Spending a ton of time with my family, and then also looking at my childhood bookcase and just being like, “Alright, well, I guess I'll pick up a Goosebumps book,” and then I was like, “Wait a minute, this is so fun!” And it, it actually made me enjoy reading again. Where I had been in a huge reading slump because in law school I was like, “If I have to read another case, I'm gonna lose my mind.” I was like, “This isn't interesting.” I forgot that reading could be fun.

And it was kind of like being trapped in my childhood bedroom. Looking at these books and finally picking them up where I was like, “Oh, this is something that's making me really happy. Maybe I should try writing something like this, too.”

Dr. Val: Beautiful. What a beautiful story!

Andrew: I know it's, it's such a, it's such a great journey and then it leads to this incredible book. So, tell us a little bit the sort of, you know, 30,000 foot view of “There Goes the Neighborhood.” What happens in the book and why you wrote it.

Jade Adia: Yeah, okay, so “There Goes the Neighborhood” follows three best friends in a fictional neighborhood in South L.A. who, when one of the friend's families gets an eviction notice, come together to try to figure out how to keep their crew together. Their neighborhood is rapidly gentrifying and things are changing a lot.

So they think of the horribly problematic solution to start a fake gang to scare gentrifiers out of their neighborhood. And, of course, that goes super awry, and they really have to come to terms with what it means to be part of a community, like, what change is like.

Andrew: Yeah, it's such a great story. It's got so much in it. So, you're, you're, you're stuck in your childhood bedroom, you're stuck in quarantine, and that sort of leads you to want to write again. What was the motivation to write this particular story?

Jade Adia: Yeah, I mean, it was a lot of it was just kind of motivated by, thinking about, like, how devoted I was to my friends when I was that age and a lot of those relationships felt extremely place-based at that time, like, as a young kid in LA where there's no public transportation, I don't have a car! So, like, I, many of my best friends were the people who lived, like, around the corner from me and down the street. My actual neighborhood where I grew up, it's very different from the ones that the kids are in, because the kids in the book, their neighborhood’s changing so much and there's a lot of displacement. Whereas for me, it kind of wasn’t until I went away to college and came back that I really started to notice how fast my neighborhood was changing. So I would maybe come home once a year.

So during those four years I was away and I'd come back and I'd be like, “Wait, where's this person?” And they're like, “Oh, they're gone.” And I was like, “Oh, okay.” And I'd go away and I'd come back and I'd be like, “What happened to this restaurant?” And they're like, “Oh, that's gone.”

Going away and coming back during those years is what I really, I really felt it changing in a really, that accelerated way.

And yeah, so the book was really just kind of thinking about what if I was 15 when I was seeing my neighbor change this fast and the anxiety and the fear that I would have about losing a support system. Especially as someone that myself and my family relied on my neighbors a lot. Just being so afraid of what that could look like and, and yeah, me and my friends were also, like, we were so weird and crazy. Like, we would think of something super insane like this to do!

[Laughter]

Dr. Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: A fake gang.

Jade Adia: Yeah! because the kids in the book, they're all so nerdy and they are kind of in this unique place where they understand the history of their neighborhood enough to know that this is a threat, but they're also just removed enough to not really understand, like, the emotional and political ramifications of what they're doing. So, it kind of creates the perfect conditions for these well intentioned kids who've never done anything bad before in their life to think of truly the worst plan possible.

Andrew: Right. I mean, yeah, the plan wouldn't work if they were 12 and it probably wouldn't work if they were 18 or 19. But they're sort of like in this sweet spot of 15, 16 years old where it's like, yeah, they have enough context to recognize that the White people who are coming into their neighborhood are scared of, you know, gunshots and are scared of gang activity and like, “Oh, this could be our way in,” but, but young enough to, to think that it might be a good idea.

Jade Adia: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I, like, had some old journals from high school which were, like, humiliating to read.

Dr. Val: Nice!

Jade Adia: But again, I was back at home, so I had access to them, and I was like, “Oh my God!” But the book takes place over the course of one month in the summer between the kids freshman and sophomore year of high school.

And I also remember that just being, like, the most, like, frustrating time because, like, you finish one year of high school so now everyone thinks that you're a little bit older. But like, you can't really drive yet. And like, no one's really that cool yet. So I think it also makes sense that, you know, that, that's a really awkward summer that there's also not a ton of YA books that take place during that time. Usually YA is a little bit older where they're always 16 or 17, but for this one, I was like, I think they should be younger and yeah, there's, there's, I think there's need for more books about that age and like those early high school years as well.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And you, you started to answer this a little bit, Jade, with your answer about looking back at your old journals. How have you been able to develop the sense of empathy for this age group? Like, how does it feel so fresh to you that you can just speak so authentically with their voice?

Jade Adia: Yeah, I think part of it was, remembering how I felt at that time. Like, through journals or even just reflecting. So the main character of the book, her name is Rhea. While we're very different people, we do have a lot in common, and one of them is that Rhea is, like, deeply, deeply afraid of change.

And that's something that I remember feeling acutely at that age where I had friends that, I had a really tight knit friend group, but I was the one that was kind of like, kind of trying to hold on to our childhood in a lot of ways. Like, I, I remember feeling like everyone around me was changing a lot faster than I was, and that was really difficult for me at that age.

So I think when I was writing Rhea from her perspective, I was able to just remember that and, and see how that theme could ripple out in the book where her childhood best friend is, you know, saying that he may or may not have some feelings for her, and she doesn't know how to feel about that.

And then there's new kids to the neighborhood. So her friend group's changing and it's also expanding in another way. She's going through changes at home with her family. She's going through changes with herself, just being 15 at that, like, cusp age. And then on top of that, like, her neighborhood's changing and it just all feels so overwhelming.

I could just remember even though I wasn't dealing with exactly the same stuff, like that feeling of just wanting to, like, ground down somewhere and not get, like, swept up in all the changes.

So I think just even though I was writing from a younger perspective, I think, like, even for us as adults, like we can still still feel that feeling we're like, “Oh my God, like, I, I can't believe things are going this fast.” So my writing was kind of focused on those big feelings that we all still experience and just kind of remembering, like, how intense it felt when you were younger.

Dr. Val: I can't even tell you how, how super helpful that is and thinking about my own experience. My son, he never asks for anything. But when we moved into this house, um, he was just finishing middle school and going into high school.

And he's like, “Can we move into a neighborhood where I can go to the same school as the friends that I made in middle school?” Because there had been so much change. Like, we moved to a new state in 2020, and so, new school. And it was virtual and then it was face to face, but with masks. And, and, he, he has never like really asked me for anything like, you know, like, he asked for a PS5.

[Laughter]

But he's never asked me for anything, like…. And he said (when we were driving around looking for houses outside of the neighborhood that we eventually landed in), he said “I'm tired of making new friends.” And, um, yeah, I know.

So thank you. Thank you. Just, until you just said that, I forgot how much that type of change we consider young people to be super resilient and not always impacted by these changes as much as adults are. And so, thank you. Thank you for that.

Jade Adia: Yeah, no, and, and thank you for sharing that too. I think one of the fun things with YA books, is that I do think it is a place where adults can get a lot of enjoyment from reading these books, too.

Young people are my primary demographic, and I love talking to teenagers who like to read and who've read my book and stuff. But, but I've had lots of really interesting conversations with friends who are parents, my sister who also is a parent now and stuff, and just thinking about all the stuff that comes up in all of us when we remember all of, like, the big feelings of, of different ages in our life and stuff, so, so yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. That's beautiful. Certainly, you know, one of the big themes of the book is gentrification. Maybe this is like a yes and question, but did you set out to write about gentrification and then figure the best way to do it is kind of in this fictional L.A. neighborhood following these friends around?

Because the, like, visceral feeling of the neighborhood is so present in the book. Like, even though it's a fictional neighborhood, I feel like I was walking through it, I could smell it, I could feel it, it made me hungry. I wanted to, like, eat the food that's in the book!

[Jade laughs]

You could, like, feel the pace of the book, the energy of the neighborhood was, like, so real and present.

Did you want to write, like, a, a coming of age, found-family book and happen to set it in a place experiencing gentrification, or was it like, “I'm gonna write about gentrification, and this is the best vehicle to do that”?

Jade Adia: Yeah, that's such a good question. And thank you. I'm so glad that the book made you hungry. That's like my favorite thing someone said about the book!

[Laughter]

Because there's a lot of food and a lot of just like, the coziness of what makes neighborhoods unique in it. So that makes me so happy.

But, yeah, It was kind of more of the first thing you said, where for me, I knew I wanted to write a book about gentrification. So that's where I started.

But I think the other important context for the time that I started writing this book was it was the summer of 2020. So, it was right in the thick of, like, the George Floyd uprisings and all of the stuff that was happening in the country at that time. So I had also been spending a lot of time being, like, out in the community and, like, attending these different, like, vigils and protests and events and stuff. And one of the things that continued to, like, strike me every time I went to these events was, like, the young people there, like the teenagers that were at these events, were bringing such, like, a different energy to this space than what all the adults were. And in a way that was really stunning to me where there were, like, there was one in, in particular that I was thinking about a lot, where there were, like, there's like a group of teenagers who brought, like, a Bluetooth speaker and were, like, playing music and, like, people were dancing during it.

But like, this was also in the context of this, like, extremely painful moment. And I thought that was so incredible and, like, really moving to just see the ways in which, like, Gen Z and Gen Alpha were just showing up in these spaces, like, bringing something completely fresh.

So, these things were kind of happening, like, side-by-side in my mind where I was like, “Okay, I know I want to start trying to write again. I've been thinking about gentrification a lot having moved back to L.A. after having not been there for a while.” So, that was on my mind. And then seeing kind of this, like, it felt very subversive, the way that these young people were, like, showing up at these protests. And so that was on my mind a lot, thinking about what would it look like to capture that sort of perspective and energy, and also, like, creativity, when, like, tackling difficult issues?

And then I was just thinking about the importance of accessibility. Because, like I said, I was frustrated in law school and how inaccessible it felt. And these protest spaces that were, like, multicultural, multilingual, like, um, people of all ages felt kind of like the antithesis to, like, me being trapped in my Zoom classroom, talking about these things and, and half in Latin. Where I was like, “No one even speaks Latin anymore. Why are we doing this?”

[Laughter]

So, um, so yeah, just thinking about accessibility led to being like, “Oh, YA would make sense.” This would be a way to prioritize a fast paced story that brings as many people to the table as possible, and centers young people.

So, so yeah, I kind of started building it out that way.

I don't even know exactly what made me think of the crazy fake gang thing, but, but I do remember thinking a lot about how funny all the kids at the protest were that I met.

Then the challenge just became like, “How can I make this as fun as possible?” while also being, hopefully, like, very nuanced and having different perspectives on the issue and not having anything just be, like, a clear black or white answer. Cause (as you guys know as well), like, teenagers are too smart for that.

Like, no one wants to hear you say, like, “It has to be this way or it has to be that way.” A very gray area book about gentrification felt natural once I was thinking about all those things.

Andrew: I love, I love that you tapped on, on the joy piece as well because I think, you know, we've talked about these sort of heavy themes that run throughout the book of gentrification, of displacement of, you know, the loss of community and those sorts of things. But there are moments like they're definitely like the, the scene in the bathroom at Dante's funeral, like, broke me! There are definitely deeply touching moments, but there's so much joy and life and humor in the book as well.

Jade Adia: Yeah, I appreciate that. I think that, that was definitely, like, one of my biggest goals with the book where I decided that if I wanted to try to write this book, I wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to paint a picture of a neighbor that's, like, emphasizing trauma or a narrative that feels like it's weighing kids down.

I think we have, like , enough of those types of stories that kind of, like, weigh kids down. Especially when there's young Black and brown people in the story. And those stories are important as well, but like, there are, like, there are a lot of books that are about sad Black girls.

And, when I think about gentrification, there's so many aspects of it that, you know, deeply trouble me. But, like, the one that feels most personal to me is that it's like, gentrification is this systemic attempt to resegregate neighborhoods and scatter people. When these people are separated, like, what we're losing are these, like, really important social ties and social capital that, like, makes people feel safe and makes people feel comfortable and allows people to, like, live, like, the best version of their life. Like, I, I truly think that there's a tremendous human cost to gentrification that goes beyond, like, the economic cost of it as well.

And I think in order to tell a story that maybe for people who haven't experienced gentrification firsthand, or they've experienced it, but like, from the perspective of someone who is gentrifying a neighborhood, and is looking to try to understand or develop empathy about the issue, I think, like, the best way to tell that story is to like, show a neighborhood that is, like, so deeply worth protecting. And, like, the people in it, like, love being there. And they, like, love their friend groups and, like, the, the love of it all has to be the core of this story because that's, that's what's at stake.

So, I really wanted to try to balance writing about the heavy stuff, but, like, continually emphasizing, like, there's a reason why Rhea feels so strongly about protecting her neighborhood. And it's because it's, like, a really wonderful way to live, and that's something that all of us should be thinking about when talking about these issues. Where it's like, it's, it's people and relationships at the core of it.

So yeah, it just felt important to try to make the book feel fun! So like you said, where you were like, “I could feel myself walking around this neighborhood.” I'm like, “Yeah!” Like, that's how I want people to feel, because that's how I feel about where I grew up. And that's how a lot of people feel about their neighborhoods.

And especially the ways in which gentrification can create these very, like, corporate, socially isolated styles of living where people don't really talk to each other that much anymore. Or, there's a lot of the same types of stores, and there's, like, a reduction in diversity. I want to show a book that shows like, or, there is another way to be a part of a city, and that's nice and worth, you know, worth protecting as well.

Andrew: I hadn't thought of it in those terms until you just said that, but in my mind, when I think of, uh, neglected part of a city (a city that has been disinvested in, where you would imagine gentrification to happen), you think of the harms that that kind of place can cause. And so in, yeah, in my mind, that is a place that is weighing down on the people that are there.

But you read your story and, and that, like, clearly the only thing that is, like, keeping that community alive and afloat is the community itself. It, the, the community does such a job of uplifting everybody who's there, of supporting everybody, of keeping everybody sort of on their feet. Such a huge wide diversity of people all being supported and upheld by that community.

There's like a simple story about gentrification, which is like, “It's urban renewal. It's blight, it's, you know, neglected communities that need investment. And so, we're going to bring in the investment. And so instead of, you know, $200,000 rundown houses, we're going to have million dollar condos. And that is clearly progress and good.”

And, and I think that, you know, our listeners are probably willing to dismiss that version?

Jade Adia: Mm hmm.

Andrew: But I think there's also a story about gentrification, which is like, it is, like, unequivocally bad. That change is bad. And I think this is, like, where Rhea starts the book, right?

It's like, “Nothing can change. Everything needs to stay exactly the same.”

“This, this kid who I've been friends with for my whole life now wants to hold my hand. No!”

[Laughter]

Like, “This is, everything needs to stop! This is too much. Everything should stay exactly the same.” And, and, and that's like, obviously not a sustainable, way into the future either.

And she sort of comes to this acceptance that there does need to be some change. They do need to, maybe their friend group can grow. Maybe that doesn't mean that everything is going away. Is, is there some kind of theme around the change of a neighborhood that, that kind of, you know, mimics Rhea's journey over the book?

Jade Adia: Yeah. That's a really good question. You know, there's a couple different ideas of, not necessarily solutions, but just, like, ways forward that are proposed throughout the book. Um, because one of the other things I want to make sure is it's, even people in Rhea's neighborhood completely disagree about gentrification.

There are some people that are like, “I'm a Black homeowner, I want to see it increase my property value.” And then there's other people that are of the perspective where they're just like, “If it's not for everyone, then it’s for no one.” There's other people that are talking about the role of violence in neighborhoods.

And, and even though, interestingly enough, like, there's been a lot of studies that gentrifying neighborhoods often increase gun violence because it creates a high stress environment. And, like, a lot of these social disruptions can actually exacerbate certain issues.

So, so I think that's also lost in conversation about gentrification sometimes where, if we're thinking about, like, how to best support different communities (and having real, like, conscious local approaches to doing that), part of it is, like, making sure, like, people feel safe and protect in their neighborhood.

So when I think about, like, some takeaways for young people, I like to try to talk to them about the importance of, like, place-based stuff, because I think that one of the themes of the book, and Rhea is, like, an extremely disillusioned young person. Where she's like, “I can't vote, and even if I could vote, I don't know what my vote would do. I've watched all of these protests, and I don't feel like the moment carried on further than, you know, these protests.”

So, one of her mentors in the neighborhood is organizing a protest. Rhea is kind of like, “I don't even really want to go. I don't see the point of it.”

Andrew: “What’s that going to do?”

Jade Adia: Yeah, what's that going to do? And I think that that disillusionment is extremely valid, especially now, like in this post-pandemic. Like, young people have gone through a lot there in their early years.

But I do think that being rooted in your local community does provide a lot of opportunities for political resistance. Mutual aid is talked about in the book which is this, you know, the idea that if you know your neighbors and you're part of an internet connected community, that's one way that you can create social safeguards, like, outside of a political system. Outside of relying on the state.

And then there's also talk about, like, the importance of being involved, like, in your literal city/county government. You can do so much at the local level, and you don't have to want to be president. You know, you can be upset with, like, what's happening on a national scale, but if you're really thinking about, like, your day to day life and how government interacts with it, like, looking extremely local has a lot of opportunities.

So I also hope that young people really take that seriously and be like, “Oh! Like, you actually can be involved in politics at these levels.”

Dr. Val: You know, last season we spent a lot of time, uh, making connections about action items for, for listeners and you just gave us a thousand. So, um, so thank you. My follow up question was one of our, our themes for the season this year is about perseverance and sustaining, like, these efforts to enact change.

What can readers learn from your characters about that?

Jade Adia: Mmm. I love the theme of perseverance. It's funny because in this book there's multiple points where you're looking at what the friend group is doing and you're like, “Please give up!” You're, like, “This is going too far.”

[Laughter]

So there, there are points where you're like, “Stop!” You're, like, begging them to like–

Andrew: Stop persevering!

Jade Adia: Exactly! Stop persevering.

Dr. Val: I love it!

Jade Adia: Um, but then there's also obviously like you, you, you're rooting for them and you want them to win and stuff. I think for young people, on the topic of perseverance, just thinking about the importance of, like, remaining open minded and your disillusionment is valid. But open mindedness, like, is your skill. And even though the kids in the book, like, they, they start off with an idea that's insane, but, you know, by the end of the book, like, they're all able to change for the better and have more honest conversations with, like, their parents, their friends, their neighbors because there is this willingness to, like, change their mind.

Perseverance is extremely important, but I feel how tired and fatigued a lot of young people feel, and so that's, that's hard sometimes. I'm like, “Yeah, I really do feel you,” where it is, like, very hard. And you feel like you're inheriting, like, police brutality. There's climate change, like, there's all these things that are on their plate.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Jade Adia: But change is constant and it's really just a matter of, like, how you as an individual can choose to, you know, be a part of change in positive ways that are positive for you, positive for the people you care about.

Um, so yeah, I don't know.

Andrew: One of our, one of our other themes for the season is the importance of public schools and the school in the neighborhood is Bayrex Charter School. I wonder if you can tell us about Bayrex Charter School and how that features into the book.

Jade Adia: Ah, yes. The reason why I wanted to have the kids attend a charter school is because I do think that there's a lot of complicated politics around charter schools, and specifically charter schools in Black and Brown neighborhoods. And I think it's important to look at the flow of money in neighborhoods, especially when people are claiming to support young people and their families and the people around them.

And I think unfortunately (though not the case everywhere) schools are another place where sometimes exploitation can happen. A lot of people try to make money off of poor communities and Black communities and Brown communities, and I think that schools aren't exempt from that.

In my own education, I've been to a variety of schools. I went to public schools, I went to private schools, but I am someone that truly does believe in public schools and the importance of public schools just as community hubs, but also as aspirationally (hopefully) at least places where there's at least some accountability in terms of how money is spent.

So yeah, I wanted to talk about charter schools because I wanted to just show that nothing's easy. Like, the, the people in the book involved with the charter school, they're also people of color, and I think that's a complicated issue.

With this book, I didn't want to just be like, “All of the Black characters are heroes, and all the Brown characters are great. And then all the White people are evil,” where it's like, that's not how it is. It's not, like, it's not that simple.

And I think when we look at institutions like schools and a lot of nonprofits, you can really start to see all of these things complicated about, like, money, power, exploitation, and the ways that people can sometimes spin a really good tale to say that they're really helping people. But if the people who are in charge don't actually reflect the community that they're serving, that gap can just create so many issues.

So yeah, so I was like, “I'm gonna put a problematic charter school in the book! Why not?”

[Jade chuckles]

Andrew: Yeah. It speaks to me as well as, like, the promise that, that the folks pushing gentrification make is like, “We're going to make everything better. Just trust us. Let us come in and we will make things better.”

“We've got this new restaurant that's even better than your old restaurant. So it doesn't matter that, you know, that person who's owned that restaurant for three generations is displaced because look at our new…. And the new taco restaurant that comes into your neighborhood where the only salsa they have is pico de gallo.”

Jade Adia: Yeah!

[Jade laughs]

Andrew: A beautiful example of this, like, “We've got it! Trust us. Trust us. We've got it.”

And I think what you said is exactly right. It's like, who is in charge of that? Who is leading that? And if it's not somebody from the community, if it's not somebody who knows the community, it's not somebody who's rooted in the community, then, then they're likely to miss, regardless of what their intentions are.

And obviously, in, in the book we, we don't need to give any way, but like intentions are not always pure in the, in the best of circumstances. But even when intentions are really good, you still end up missing if you're not rooted in community. If you're not, you know, in relationship with the people who are most impacted.

Jade Adia: Exactly. And I think that it also goes to how, you know, in America we have this culture of holding up, like, the disruptors. Like in tech and, and finance stuff. The archetype of the disruptor is kind of like the hero, the aspirational, like, the “wonder-kid” of capitalism. But it's really just like, I really think that we should deeply question this concept of, like, “disruption equals good; disruption equals the solution.” Because,

Andrew: Progress.

Jade Adia: Yeah! I don't think that that's how, like we were saying, like, change is natural, innovation is important, but for systems to be in place that are set up to favor people who identify as disruptors over favoring people who are actually part of communities, it's super problematic! I think it's really, I think it's really scary.

And I think the kids in the book kind of recognize that. Where they're like, they're kind of looking at these, these people and the, the ways that they're talking about their neighborhoods. The ways that the people at the school are like, “Oh, we're trying to get special funding so we need you guys to pose for this thing.” Like, the young people are really aware that like, “You guys, there's something that doesn't feel good about this,” and, and the story definitely ends up validating their hunch about that where, yeah, sometimes these people that are coming from outside and saying the perfect things, it's not gonna end up being the perfect solution, for sure.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. Who, who's the book for? I, I've, I've seen elsewhere that you've talked about, that you didn't see great representation of yourself in YA books. That you didn't, like, find yourself in literature until you were older. I'm, I'm guessing there is some, you know, desire to reach young Black nerdy girls.

But who else are you sort of hoping will, will get the book, and then what are you hoping people will do with it once they dive into this world?

Jade Adia: Yeah. Definitely first and foremost, like, for young people of color to kind of see themselves reflected, like, joyfully, but also in a real way that reflects, like, the complexity of, you know, growing up in this country and stuff. So, so that's one thing.

And I understand that it can be a hard book to read in a classroom because, like, it's, it's written how a lot of, like, my friends and, like, young people in my life talk. So, in certain schools there may be a discomfort around that? Um, but I do think, like, my, my dream would be for the book to be in a lot of classrooms because even for young White kids or for kids who maybe aren't in urban spaces, who aren't seeing these things firsthand, I, I really do think that, like, these issues are only getting worse and only affecting more people, and it's important to talk about it.

Like, I think that down the line when we are talking about gentrification, it's going to feel like talking about redlining. Like, I feel like we're, like, experiencing living history right now. And, like, that's not being taken super seriously, especially, like, within our education system sometimes.

You know, and not saying that, like, my book is necessarily like the one that should be on people's syllabus. But, like, I would like for a lot of schools in urban areas to be talking about urban issues, because it's young people that are being affected on the front lines. And this is a really crazy era we're in, and those of us who are feeling it firsthand, like, we know that. But I think time will tell that it's going to get bigger and more complicated.

And it's very hard to figure out how to sustainably live in this, like, capitalist economy that we're in. And I hope that people can read this book and at least just start thinking about what it means to do any sort of place-based work. Or what it means to think outside of systems, um, not in the way that the kids in the book do, because their idea was bad. But by, like,

[Andrew laughs]

But by the end of the book–

Andrew: Just for the record!

Jade Adia: Yes, for the record! I know! I always, I'm like, please don't, I'm like, get to the end of the book, please! Like, if you drop off in the middle, you might think it's still fine, it's not fine, um. But, but yeah, I hope that the book can just be, yeah for anyone that's, like, ready to kind of talk to kids about different solutions to finding a more sustainable way forward in their city.

Even if they're not supposed to be talking about gentrification . And if people can walk away from the book kind of being ready to really talk about, like, change in their life (even, like, interpersonally), that would make me happy. Because I think there's a lot in the book about that, about the importance of like, opening up dialogue and opening up yourself to having conversations about this, so. So yeah! Honestly, I'd be thrilled if anyone reads the book! But, but yeah.

Andrew: For sure. I think you're selling yourself short, I mean, obviously, it's a YA book, but anybody would benefit from reading this book. I was so moved by it and just felt myself like living with the characters after I finished it and thinking about them and their lives, and painted such just, like, a visceral picture of, of, like you said, like a community that is so worth saving. Of something that is so beautiful and, and lovely and, and worth protecting, regardless of the change that may be inevitable, that there's something in that that's worth protecting.

So I think everybody should, everybody should get the book and read it.

Jade Adia: Thank you! I appreciate it. Even if the takeaway is just people read the book and it kind of makes you be like, “Oh, I don't actually know my neighbors.” And maybe the next time you see your neighbors, you do kind of wave and softly introduce yourself. Like, no matter where you live or what your neighborhood looks like, that's also a great takeaway too.

Like, we don't have to be so isolated. And if you do feel that way in your community, like, there are, like, small steps you can take to at least start building those connections with people around you. Um, I think we'll all be better for it.

I'm so happy that I got to talk to you all, though, about it. What y'all do, it's just, um, a really cool mission. And I, I love the idea of, like, you know, parents and families talking about these issues together, and with the young people in their lives. It's very cool, very cool to see.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, it is our book club pick, four sessions coming up in November. So, get the book, read it. Come to book club, integratedschools.org/bookclub. You can get more information and register there.

Dr. Val: Thank you for joining us!

Andrew: So grateful for you spending the time coming on, talking about it.

Really grateful for the book. I'm so excited to see what comes next, future work from you. We'd love to have you back to talk about whatever's next. And, uh, yeah, thanks for coming on.

Jade Adia: Of course. Thank you for having me! And thank you for picking “There Goes the Neighborhood” for the book club! Yeah, that's so exciting.

Andrew: Absolutely. Absolutely.

------------------------------------------

Andrew: So, Val, what'd you think?

Dr. Val: Can I say, like, how much I really, really enjoyed that conversation in a way that I just did not expect. Right? Because, you know, we're talking about a fiction book, which we haven't done before. And, probably through the pandemic, my attention span for fiction just has shortened, right?

And so, to be able to sit with an author, who I found incredibly thoughtful, incredibly connected to a sense of place and what is happening with the young folks around her, was just really powerful.

One of the first things that she talked about was the beauty of her neighborhood growing up. And how she could go into, you know, different neighbor's houses. Everybody knew each other. Doors were unlocked, and it felt safe and people would look out for you. And, I absolutely felt that in my neighborhood growing up, right?

We were always in the middle of the street playing kickball or something else. You know, we knew everyone on our block on, you know, the next couple of blocks. It was a time where you could go wander and then your parents weren't worried about you! You just go and–

Andrew: –Come home when the streetlights turn on.

Dr. Val: Literally! Like, on your bike, gone. Miles away. You know, and it was a joyful time and you actually wanted to be out in the neighborhood with your friends exploring. And that was cool.

And so, even her telling that story reminded me of my childhood and how I felt just really comfortable and safe doing that.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, I had the same sort of experience. I mean, in my block, I think there were like 18 kids under the age of 12 or something. It's just like kids everywhere. And, and yeah, there was definitely a sense that every parent on the block was parenting all of the kids on the block. And there was a sense of comfort and a sense of place, a sense of safety in that.

Dr. Val: So when I think about, like, my past neighborhood, the beauty of it, I felt comfortable. It felt like home. and then when I went away to college, I never moved back (right?) to that particular neighborhood.

So every time I would go back, it would continue to change, right? And we lived very close walking distance to, um, what I still lovingly call Joe Robbie Stadium (I don't know what the name of the Miami Dolphins Stadium is at this point).

[Andrew chuckles]

And, once they built that, they put in some palm trees. They put in some business that we never had before. Right? And so you would see all of these changes and, you know, because these changes were happening as I was growing into adulthood, I was aware that these changes weren't happening because, “Hey! We want to beautify this Black community.”

It was like, “Hey, we've built the stadium here,”

Andrew: “Other people are are going to come and it's going to reflect on our city and so now–”

Dr. Val: “And now we have to ‘invest’ in, in the community.” And that's really upsetting! Right? Because one of the things I hate about gentrification is there's the assumption that investment in a community is not necessary unless a certain population is moving into that community.

As if the people who live there already don't have the same value.

Andrew: Right. Certainly one of the most powerful things of the book for me reading it was just this, this incredibly beautiful, rich, description of this neighborhood. The ways that she presented it as, like she said, “Something that is so worthy of being kept, something that is so worthy of loving and wanting,” is such a powerful reminder that there is value everywhere.

Dr. Val: That’s right.

Andrew: People are valuable and people find ways to build community and create life.

And I think the, the image of this neighborhood is so counter to the way (certainly the media portrays neighborhoods that are gentrifying, right?), the story that gets told is that gentrification is urban renewal. The story that gets told is that it is about investing in “under-invested” places so that they can be quote, better and ignoring the value that actually exists in those places to start with.

Dr. Val: Yeah. It's complicated because, of course, I want some palm trees and some stores and some restaurants in the neighborhood. Who doesn't want that! Right? And, it's also a signal that, yeah, things are changing.

And so one thing that I really valued in Jade's work was the way in which she was, A) able to have a really nuanced conversation around this topic and to, to create such a sense of empathy for all of her characters. And one thing that I just, I keep thinking about (and it kind of makes me want to revisit mine) is that she went back to her journals and was reading through what she felt like at that age, and trying to really get connected.

Now I, I mean, I kind of want to go back…

[Andrew laughs]

But let's, let's be real.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. Yeah!

Dr. Val: Yeah, probably a lot of TLC lyrics if, if I'm being honest.

[Andrew laughs]

That's probably what was in there.

Andrew: Yeah, I am not 15. So maybe a 15 year old reads it and feels like it's not as authentic as it felt to me. But I mean, in my experience of getting ready to interview her, I had to remind myself that I was not interviewing Rhea, the narrator from the book.

Like, she was so compelling and felt so authentic that I had to remind myself that this was a story.

Dr. Val: And I think this is the power of stories. It made me, in an instance of gentrification, really want to listen to all of the stakeholders that…

Andrew: Yes.

Dr. Val: Are impacted by these actions, right? There has to be a scenario in which it's win-win for lots of stakeholders. I don't know those. I don't think we often look long enough to find those win-win situations?

Andrew: To me, I mean, that ties into our other theme from the season about the power of being in community. And certainly the charter school subplot of the book is representative of this, this idea that even well intentioned people who are coming into quote, unquote help, if they are not from the community, if they're not rooted in the community, if they are not in relationship in the community, are likely to go astray in those attempts.

She doesn't sugarcoat the harm that is caused by gentrification, but there are little bits and pieces, little, like, nuggets of ways of some people who are showing up who may be doing it slightly better.

She has this quote early on, she says,

A few feet away, I noticed two White teenagers walking through the crowd. From what I can tell, they are the only non-Black or Brown people here. They smile and laugh as they walk around with food that they bought from the Ethiopian stand. If only everyone who moved here would come to our events like this, rather than just walk their dogs while avoiding eye contact with us, and only waving at people who look like them.

Dr. Val: Mmmm. Yeah.

Andrew: Change is inevitable. But how do we show up? And, you know, it comes back to this sort of school conversation is, like, how we show up really, really matters.

Dr. Val: One thing that, you know, I appreciate about Jade's work and I think fiction in general is that it makes a difficult topic accessible and opens the door for us to talk about it in a way we may not have talked about it before. And it sparks curiosity, right?

So if you have a young person who's reading this and wondering, “Hey, how do I show up as an ally?” Or “What do I need to know about gentrification?” Or “How do I, you know, get involved in my community?” Like, this, this story serves as a vehicle for action, I think, and, and deepening curiosity around your own community.

Andrew: Yeah. The kids in the book are so empowered and, and, you know, initially probably not so much for good. The fake gang is, like, not a good idea. But, they walk through the world with a sense of their own power to make change. And they're sometimes disillusioned and sometimes they feel like, you know, maybe they're not sure their change is going to happen.

But I think that it's hard for me to imagine a 15 or 16 year old reading this book and not coming away feeling like there was a role for them to play in their neighborhood. In their community. In, you know, fighting for change. And I think the more people we can kind of bring into the idea that we all have both the ability and also then the responsibility to make change, the better.

Dr. Val: Yeah, and I think that's another thing that makes Jade's work so genius is that I think that age group often feels like they can't do a whole lot, right? “I'm not an adult, so people aren't listening to me.”

Right? We, we have a bias against young people who stand up ‘cause we assume, like, “You don't really know what you're talking about.” And so, to be able to provide young people examples of how they can show up and, and start to develop, you know, our, our last theme of the season, that perseverance, is just a really important element of the story.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

There's, there's one other piece that, that I've been sitting with that certainly the way that, that Jade tells her story, there's a lot of harm that comes from gentrification. There is, uh, you know, displacement, there's the loss of culture, there is conflict that can arrive. Also, you know, the research on the benefits of socioeconomically integrated neighborhoods is quite compelling. Very similar to the research about the benefits of integrated schools.

And, certainly I don't think Integrated Schools’ message is “Go gentrify neighborhoods,” because, because there's so much harm that can come from that. And yet, there is a way in which sort of saying, like, “You should go and enroll in your local global majority school” could be read as a similar sort of ask. And I sometimes struggle a little bit to reconcile those two things.

Dr. Val: Yeah. It's really in, in how you show up! Right? If you show up and you demand this, or you devalue this tradition that has been there forever. Or it becomes about only your kid, then yeah, it'll, it'll feel like more traditional gentrification, “I don't have a space here. You're pushing me out.”

And I think gentrifier,

[Val laughs]

like colonizer–

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: –is, is, is a persona! Right? Like, if you come in to colonize and say, “This is now mine. Thank you for your service. Get off. Get away.” Then that's, that's completely different energy and you'll be met with energy that is resistance.

Andrew: Yeah, the similarities to school feel very easy for me to make here because it's like, are you showing up with this idea that “I know what a good neighborhood is, I know what a neighborhood is supposed to look like. And it's these, this, this, this, this, and this. And so we need to start working right away on CHANGING this neighborhood to make it match MY vision of what a ‘good’ neighborhood looks like.” Very same experience to a colonizing, you know, mentality when you show up in a school and say, “Well, I know what a ‘good’ school looks like.”

“I know what this school needs. It needs these things, these things, and we need to get rid of these things and change it in this way.”

Dr. Val: Yeah. I imagine when you come in and you might have the idea (because you're human) that this is what a good school should include. Definitely checking in with the community that's been there, because it's building the coalition so that you make sure that all voices are heard and valued in that process.

Andrew: We had Kfir Mordechay on the podcast a while back, who's a professor at Pepperdine University, who studies gentrification and, and one of the thing that I that I always come back to from that conversation is he pointed out that changeover in who lives in a neighborhood is directly related to the wealth in that neighborhood. Like, poverty increases neighborhood turnover.

And we call it gentrification when the people who are coming in look different than the population who's there. But, but gentrification in most circumstances doesn't actually increase the pace of turnover.

Dr. Val: Interesting! I have to go back and check out that episode.

I have a lot to learn about gentrification. You know? I have, I have lots of questions, have lots of wonderings about is there a way to quote, revitalize a neighborhood and still maintain some of the beauty that was there already? I have wonderings about what would it actually take to establish interracial communities and if people actually want them? I, I think people do. Because I wouldn't be here talking to you if I didn't think people did, right?

You know, I'm wondering about the barriers. Whether they're internal or external and whether there's, like, that pressure (that you often talk about from like a White person's experience) to follow the set of unwritten White rules for, for your family. We have to do a better job of identifying the barriers.

Andrew: Yeah. I don't think we have any great examples out there to point to, to say “This is how it should be done.” But I, but I agree, I think there's a lot of people who would like that. And my hope is that the more people who have more truly integrated schooling experiences, the better we can do that, that those kids will grow up to, you know, kind of seek that out in a more helpful and, and hopeful way.

Dr. Val: Because it will be the norm for them.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Val: Because it would be abnormal if a White student sees no people of color around and they're like, “Where, where am I?”

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And to come back to the power of storytelling, the story that, that Jade tells with “There Goes the Neighborhood” just, brings the power of, of community and the power of relationships and the power of story to light in so many powerful ways.

I'm so glad that we got to talk to her.

Dr. Val: Oh my gosh. I really enjoyed listening to her. She's brilliant. She will absolutely change the world. I have no doubt.

Andrew: No doubt! And she'll be, she'll be totally low key about it too.

Dr. Val: She will. She'll be like, “Look, this is what we're going to do. Revolution's coming. And it's in this cute little book.”

Andrew: Mutual aid. Overthrow capitalism. Here we go.

Dr. Val: That’s it.

Andrew: Yeah. Listeners, what did you think? What did you think of our conversation? If you read the book, what did you think of the book? Let us know. Send us a voice memo. Speakpipe.com/integratedschools. S-P-E-A-K-P-I-P-E dot com slash integrated schools. We would love to hear from you. You can go to our website.

Click on the send voicemail button on the side of the website, or just shoot us off an email, podcast@integratedschools.org. We'd love to hear how you're grappling with the idea of gentrification, with change, with neighborhoods, with your young adults in your lives. Are you reading books like these with them, and what conversations are they sparking?

We'd love to hear from you.

Dr. Val: And he's not kidding. Like, we really would love to hear from you. So, like, click stop right away, make your voice memo, send it off. We can't wait to hear that. In addition, we need you to share this episode and any other episode that feels good to you. So, take a listen, share it with someone, talk about it.

These things are done much better in community. Listen and share immediately.

Andrew: Absolutely. And then head over to patreon.com/integratedschools and sign up to throw us a few bucks every month. A cost of a coffee, the cost of… 10 coffees, whatever you've got, whatever you can spare. We would be grateful for your support. This podcast is a labor of love, but it is not free to make.

So, your support is what makes it possible. And we're so grateful.

Dr. Val: We are very grateful to you as listeners and for your engagement. Thank you so much.

Andrew: Absolutely. Val, it is an honor to be in this with you as I tried to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.