S7B1 - Race, Class, and Power in Our Schools: Mark and Max from School Colors

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Race, Class and Power In Our Schools: Mark and Max from School Colors.

Val: School Colors! Woo!

Andrew: We are back! I know it's summer, it's summer break. We were supposed to be, uh, on vacation, taking some time off. But we had this great opportunity to connect with Mark and Max from the School Colors podcast, and thought we'd drop a little bonus episode into the feed.

Val: Absolutely. The first season I was on the road and, like, every city I went to, someone was like, “Have you heard School Colors?” “Have you heard School Colors?” So, you know, I had a little fan-womanning at our guests this time around.

Andrew: Yeah. Listeners will probably remember we had Mark and Max on for the first season of School Colors, which is all about Bedford Stuyvesant and Central Brooklyn and gentrification. The arrival of White parents into a community. We played one of their episodes.

It was really about this kind of idea of White parents rallying other White parents to try to come and quote, fix a school, and the problems that come from that. And now they have a second season, which is also great and they were willing to come back on and talk about it.

Val: Yeah. And this time they are in Queens, New York. Which I understand is like a hop, skip, and a jump from Brooklyn. Feels maybe like a different world?

Andrew: Yeah, one of the things I appreciate about, about School Color is the first season and this one is that, you know, it is really hyper-local and really digs into hyper-local issues, but they are themes that definitely show up across the country in in various ways.

Val: Absolutely. I've had a chance to, to be in school districts around the country and it feels like it's a very common theme, regardless of the city, right? You'll have communities that may have some diversity, but the schools aren't necessarily diverse. And even if you do have a school that is diverse, sometimes you have that school within a school. And so, although this is a very local investigation of a current issue, it is certainly one that goes across all communities and, um, a lot of people can connect to it, wherever you are.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. There's probably at least a little bit of New York city context that's worth laying out here before we jump into the conversation, because Mark and Max are definitely deeply steeped in the New York City context for both the season and for this, this conversation.

And I certainly don't know very much about New York, but, kind of, you know, broadly the things that feel important for listeners to know about New York City going in, it is the largest school district in the country (about a million kids) but those are broken up into 32 smaller districts that make up the New York City public school system.

And, you know, they don't have direct autonomy as small districts. They don't have their own school boards. They're all under mayoral control, but they do have these things called Community Education Councils, or CECs.

And these are kind of, I guess, the vehicle for parents and community members to provide input about the direction of the school. Uh, I'm sure that they work better in some places than other places, but, you know, the idea is if the, the Department of Education (or the DOE) has something that they want to have happen in a community, the CEC is probably where they're gonna go.

I think most of the time these CEC meetings seem to be fairly sleepy affairs. You know, 15, 20, maybe 30 people. If folks remember Season One, which was set in District 16, many of the characters that were in the season were part of the CEC or spoke up at CEC meetings. And it's actually a CEC meeting in District 28 that starts off season two. And, um, it, it's, uh, it's a bit of a dumpster fire.

Val: Yeah. To say the least, to say the least. I appreciate that context, cause I think, just generally, a lot of caregivers don't know how to get involved in, in these meetings. And if there's not a school board, you kind of feel even more away from the action. And so, the idea that so many parents showed up to have this conversation around what it looks like in this district to lead some diversity effort, it becomes… an interesting conversation.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, just District 28 is kind of embarking on this diversity plan for the schools in the district. And this was happening in five districts across the city. And, you know, I think the main goal is basically increasing the diversity of the student body. It actually came out of this work that happened in District 15. It’s, like, so hard to keep track of - they should give them names or something. Should be like Fred and George and Wilmer, or something! Because the numbers are hard to keep track of.

Val: They are, for me.

Andrew: Yeah. I, I get, I get all turned around. But I believe District 15 had this, kind of, community-led effort that actually is the end of the Nice White Parents podcast from New York Times that kind of was a, a really kind of “ground up” community-led effort to look at increasing diversity in schools, in their, their district. And, um, felt like there was some positive things that came out of that. And so the Department of Education said, well, let's do this in a few others. And so District 28 was one of the places that that was supposed to happen.

And it was this, this CEC meeting was kind of the kickoff from it. And it, it did not go well.

Val: Yeah, and it makes me wonder, like, what folks’ fears are around these types of meetings, um, around diversity efforts. Because, as Mark and Max point out, like, Queens was a diverse place. This is a place where it felt like the community would be amenable to making sure that every student got what they needed. And it turned out it wasn't as simple as that.

Andrew: Yeah. Vigorous, certainly vociferous pushback.

Val: Ooh! That’s good!

Andrew: To, to, uh, to a plan that didn't even exist! I mean, there's a, you know, there's, there's so much that gets, that gets packed in here and why listeners should definitely listen to the whole season of School Colors. Um, because, you know, they, they said “We are gonna start this planning process.”

There was no plan yet, but people already showed up furious about their kids being put on buses and, um, the quality of their schools going down and all these things that –

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: – weren’t even actually part of the conversation yet.

Val: Like, had not happened at all. And I think it, it really gives us all of the listeners an opportunity to unpack some of the fears that we may have, that we haven't named yet. And, I think a lot of people will see themselves if they listen to School Colors season two.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. If you want to listen to it, it is in the Code Switch from NPR feed. So, um, if you go and search anywhere for Code |

Switch, um, which is an NPR podcast, they are running the whole season in their feed. Really great stuff. There's so much in it that I appreciate. I, you know, they're they really lean into nuance, um, which they did also in the first season.

Val: They do. Yeah, for sure.

Andrew: I don’t know how many times I have encouraged people to go listen to their episode on charter schools from the first season, which I think is one of the most nuanced and kind of thoughtful discussions of a topic that gets so heated so quickly. And, what I really appreciate about this season is they, they do kind of move out of the (something that we've been talking about here) moving out of the, kind of, Black/White racial binary, and really, really bringing in other stories as well.

Val: Right. You know what I wish also moved out of Black/White binary? Anti-Blackness. But.. heh. It doesn’t seem to.

Andrew: Yup. That does seem to be a consistent theme–

Val: Yeah. For sure.

Andrew: –through this conversation. Yeah. I know this conversation didn't do anything for your White supremacy headache.

Val: Absolutely nothing. But the people were nice!

Andrew: Yes, they were, they were very friendly.

Val: The other thing that I just appreciate about the season is how interconnected they are when they talk about schooling and housing. And again, I, I don't know much about Queens, but they had me Googling, internet searching. Trying to find out, like, you know, what these communities were actually like.

And I, I learned a lot. So I'm hoping that folks take an opportunity to, to not only interrogate, like, schools and what's happening there, but what's happening in their neighborhoods, because they are so intertwined.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And I, I appreciate that they, they, again kind of leaning into that nuance, like housing and school segregation are intertwined, and that is like a thing that people say to stop the conversation. “Oh, well, your schools are segregated, cuz your housing's segregated. There's nothing we can do. And so, move on.” And they really, they really push past that, which is nice.

Alright. Should we take a listen?

Val: We should!

Andrew: Alright, here we go.

Val: Let's do it.

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Mark Winston Grifith: Mark Winston Griffith I was born in Central Brooklyn. I've lived here most of my life. Until very recently, I was the executive director of a Black-led social justice organization based in Brooklyn called the Brooklyn Movement Center. But, um, over the decade have also been a, a journalist.

I left executive directorship of the Brooklyn Movement Center and now, and really trying to make a go of it, full-time, as a journalist.

Val: Awesome.

Mark Winston Grifith: And, I have two children who have been in public school, private school, charter. Um, my oldest one is off to college, and my youngest one, my – thank you! My younger one is in high school.

Max Freedman: Hi, my name is Max Freedman. There's a siren going off. Coming to you from Bed-Stuy. That's how you know,

Mark and I created School Colors together. The first season of the show was about Central Brooklyn, where we both live and work. And we got the opportunity to do a second season, thanks first to the Spencer fellowship in education reporting at Columbia University. And that's what I've been doing for the last two years of my life. Um, yeah, I have a cat that is just off-camera right now.

Andrew: Yup. And, and you don't have to make any choices about where she goes to school.

Max Freedman: I don't have to make any choices about where she goes to school. Which is, uh, which is yes.

Andrew: That's awesome. So, we had you on for the first season of School Colors. You really dug into gentrification and arrival of White parents into a historically Black community in Bed-Stuy. And now you get to do a second season. And I'm wondering if you can tell us what's the focus of the second season and how does that relate to the first season?

Max Freedman: So the second season kind of picks up where the first season left off. In the sense that at the end of season one, we found out that District 16 in Central Brooklyn was going to be one of five districts to go through a diversity planning process. One of the other districts that was one of those five was District 28 in Queens. Which at the time, I had never heard of, but in November, 2019, we did a promotional event for the first season in Bed-Stuy and a mom from Queens came to Brooklyn to our event to come up to us afterwards and say, “You have to pay attention to what's going on in Queens.”

Val: Wow.

Max Freedman: “Parents are going wild on Facebook in my neighborhood. I don't know what to do about it.”

A couple of weeks after that came the event that kicks off Season Two of the show, which is this Community Education Council meeting in District 28. Which clearly this woman who came to see us saw coming. At which 200, 300 people showed up to a room that was built for 70-something.

Um, these meetings sometimes have 10 or 20 people at them and they were in the hallway banging on the door, trying to get in to make comment, to express their objection to this proposed diversity plan for this district.

Val: So Season One is set in District 16, and you've moved to District 28. So that's a move from Brooklyn to Queens. Can you tell us a little bit about District 28?

Max Freedman: It is, it's a really big district. It's about seven miles from one end of the other. Which in New York is big.

Andrew: Right.

Max Freedman: And, it's about 40,000 kids and this district has been known for a very long time to have two distinct universes.

There's the North side and the South side. And there is a “Mason-Dixon line.” And for as long as this district has existed in this form, which is about 50 years, people have said there's a Mason-Dixon line separating the north and the south,

Andrew: So this Mason Dixon line. On the North Side is wealthier, maybe Whiter, but certainly less Black. The South Side is poorer, more Black. And something about that just kind of feels hard to reconcile in my mind with the story that gets told about Queens as being this place that is just, kind of, You know teaming with diversity.

Max Freedman: Queens is, of course, like everybody talks about Queens as being the most diverse place in the world. And they're right! It's true. So Queens is incredibly diverse and Queens is deeply segregated. And so that provided us an incredible opportunity to look at that situation, that contradiction, and start to peel it back.

Andrew: When you were conceiving of School Colors was the plan always to move beyond Central Brooklyn? Like, step outside of your, kind of, you know, “home field” there, so to speak. That, you know, the, the first season had so much of your own personal stories because you live in Central Brooklyn. Um, how, how'd you think about leaving Central Brooklyn and, and taking on some other part of the city?

Mark Winston Grifith: When we started Season One, I'm not even sure we thought of it as a “season one.” That is, there was no franchise in mind. We really thought of it as a one-off thing. I mean, it didn't even, didn't even start off as a podcast, but it kind of evolved into that over a period of time.

And so the theme has always been race, class, and power in American cities and schools. And as Max mentioned, when we heard about District 28, we saw it as an opportunity to do some things that we felt, I wouldn't say limited by, but when we were doing season one. First of all, Season One was very personal to us. And that was perhaps one of the most fulfilling and exciting parts of it for us is the ways in which we wrote to weave our own individual stories into it.

But we were also a little conscious of the fact that the story so much hinged on this Black/White binary. And it, if you can talk about race, class, and power in American cities and schools, it's important to understand that that doesn't stop with Black and White people. That it goes far beyond that.

And, I think for us District 28 just seemed like a perfect opportunity to jump headlong into that conversation. To really talk about the complexity of race. And it was difficult for us to sort of leave our comfort zone of the place that is our home turf that we know and love, being Central Brooklyn.

So we did, you know, we've had the stretch and the same kind of, uh, I would say, you know, personal attachment to it is not there. That we had in Season One. But again, it gives us an opportunity to explore some, some things that we weren't able to do in Season One.

Andrew: You talk about the sort of themes of race and class and power. The first season got into gentrification a bit. This season seems to really go head first at housing and housing segregation and kind of public housing. Forest Hills Gardens and that whole history.

Why dig into housing as a, as a focus when you're talking about schools?

Max Freedman: So the, the first season, actually, started its life for me as a research that Mark and I did together while I was in grad school for urban design. So that, the connection between housing and schools has been my interest really from the beginning. From before the beginning.

And so, I was really excited that this season gave us the opportunity to focus squarely on housing. Um, in episodes two and three, in particular, there's, there's chunks of it that are just housing stories, which I was excited to get into. Because I mean, so many people said to us (and it's such a cliche) as we were reporting this season, like, “Well, the schools are segregated because neighborhoods are segregated” and that's supposed to stop the conversation.

Andrew: Exactly.

Val: Mm-hmm.

Max Freedman: And it's like, to us, I think that's sort of a challenge. It's like, okay, you want to stop the conversation? We're going to start the conversation there. Why are the neighborhoods segregated? And these particular neighborhoods in Queens give us the opportunity to talk about that in terms of public housing, private housing, in ways that, that, um, both speak to things that have happened in other parts of the country, but also, like, directly affected other parts of the country.

In particularly, in the case of the “neighborhood unit,” which is this, this, um theory of, of, of neighborhood planning that was devised in Forest Hills, in the 1920s, that then was exported all over the country. And if you're a nerd about this stuff like we are, really recommend you check out the paper that Ainsley Erickson wrote with Andrew Highsmith about Forest Hills Gardens, because they really go through in, in a lot of detail, the influence of the neighborhood unit idea on different city planners, who plan cities across the country, including maybe where you live, so.

Andrew: Yeah, Forest Hills is such a great, kind of, hook to tell so much of this story on, because, because it does really tap into, you know, the housing piece, the segregation piece. The ways that government policies recreate and sustain segregation. It, I certainly found it fascinating, I'm assuming that you all did too since you have an entire episode called The Battle of Forest Hills, so I mean, maybe we can start, you can just give us sort of like a quick overview of Forest Hills.

Max Freedman: So when we talk about the North Side and the South Side of the District, when we're talking about the North Side, most of the time we're talking about Forest Hills. And Forest Hills is, I would say, middle class neighborhood, upper middle-class neighborhood with a kind of upper class enclave inside it.

Um, and that's Forest Hills Gardens. and Forest Hills Gardens looks like no other place in New York. They, it’s, it doesn’t actually have walls around it, but it might as well. The street grid is designed so that it's, it feels hard to get into. You can't park there without a permit, which is not true in any other part of New York that I've ever been to.

The street signs are different. It's all designed like a, like a Tudor village. Um, and there's this sort of cathedral-like school in the middle of it that's called The School in the Gardens. And Forest Hills is this, was this planned community. It was planned by the Russell Sage Foundation, um, in 1909.

And they called it an “urban oasis.”

The city was growing incredibly fast in the first decade of the 20th century. And it was dirty, and industrialization, and lots of immigrants. And, um, the Russell Sage Foundation wanted to prove that you could live the good life inside the city limits. And so they built this place.

And then the story that we tell, that really, that the historian Ainsley Erickson tells is that, um, there was a planner who lived there, who was employed by the Russell Sage Foundation, who was inspired by living there to say, “Oh, this is what every place should be. Every, every neighborhood should be like this. This is what a ‘good neighborhood’ is.” And a good neighborhood is defined by a school in the middle, uh, and homogeneity. Keeping like people together.

Val: Mm-Hmm.

Max Freedman: And keeping unlike people out. And that was incredibly influential.

Andrew: Ainsley Erickson is, is amazing. And I guess I'm surprised that I continue to be able to be surprised by just how, like, blatantly racist the government policies were in the past.

I should not be surprised anymore. But she, you know, she talks about this idea that the Federal Housing Administration in 1938 basically said that neighborhoods are worth investing in if their schools have harmonious racial groups.

Max Freedman: Specifically in the schools. Uh –

Andrew: If your schools are segregated

Max Freedman: – have inharmonious racial groups, the neighborhood is the property, property in the, in the neighborhood is worthless.

Andrew: Yeah, I, yeah. I mean, I shouldn't be surprised it is yet another way that kind of White supremacy replicates itself.

So that kind of sets the scene for Forest Hills, but it didn't come to be this way without controversy. So what is the “Battle of Forest Hills?”

Max Freedman: So, the Battle of Forest Hills. It was a battle over public housing in Forest Hills, Queens. There was very little public housing in Queens in general. And we're talking about, at this point, the early seventies. The way that New York City had built public housing after the Second World War is that once public housing became something that basically was sort of culturally assumed to be only for Black and Puerto Ricans in New York. The New York City Housing Authority just built more public housing for which there was a need. And sometimes even a clamoring. They built more public housing in neighborhoods that were already segregated Black and Puerto Rican neighborhoods, or neighborhoods that were trending in that direction.

So neighborhoods that were already segregated, just became bigger and more segregated.

When, uh, New York City got a new mayor named John Lindsay, who was a liberal Republican, who, uh, was a liberal Crusader, sort of how he branded himself. And he wanted to change, he wanted to change that. He wanted to build public housing, in parts of the city that didn't have any public housing. Use public housing, use government housing to rectify the harms that the government had done through the way that it built housing. Um, which is pretty logical. Um, but, uh, encountered huge resistance from homeowners, uh, in Forest Hills, led by a man named Jerry Burback, who owned a, a house nearby and was worried about his property value.

He started something called the Forest Hills Residents Association. He was a real character, uh, Jerry and his wife, Sherry.

Val: And they later moved before it happened, right?

Max Freedman: And then they moved before the building ever happened

Val: I hate people.

Max Freedman: Um, no comment, I don't know. They're extremely loud vigorous resistance that, uh, you know, politicians jumped on the bandwagon. Ed Kotch was, uh, who later became the mayor, uh, was on the side of the protestors saying “We shouldn't build this project in Forest Hills.

You're just going to bring the neighborhood down. Just like all these other neighborhoods have come down because you build public housing there.” In the end, the, the, the mayor decided to negotiate a compromise, kind of, plan.

And the person he brought in to do this was Mario Cuomo who at that time was not well known, was just a practicing lawyer. But he negotiated a compromise plan where this, uh, public housing was built at half the size originally planned, and then he became famous and he wrote a book about it. Um, and then became the governor.

Andrew: Right.

Max Freedman: And the father of another governor. And most people have no idea that this happened, except maybe they know that, like, Mario Cuomo did something in Forest Hills.

Andrew: Right.

Max Freedman: I will say about Forest Hills, is that it, it's a place that people come to to get away from other people. I say that almost without judgment.

I mean, I think lots of us make choices to get away from places, to get away from people. This is too chaotic. And in different ways, Forest Hills Gardens being the most, sort of, extreme example a hundred years ago, but even the rest of Forest Hills still, it's, it's a place that people move to, for a, kind of an “urban oasis.”

Mark Winston Grifith: But I will say though, I don't think people necessarily are conscious of that, right? They're not, I don't think, not most people saying, “Oh, I'm moving there because I want to get away from this.” I think that they see the neighborhood, they see the schools, they see the demographics, and want to be a part of that.

And so, they see that as a positive. They see the people who were there as opposed to the people who are not there.

Andrew: Drawn to something rather than moving away from something.

Mark Winston Grifith: Right. And it's really striking when you hear people talk about “how diverse, how diverse, how diverse” these, these parts of Queens are. They are diverse, but the one thing they don't have is Black people.

And so it's, it's striking how people talk in terms of diversity, but Black people become almost invisible in that equation.

Val: Hmm. I think also what I learned from the first couple of episodes is, “Also don't like poor people a whole lot.” Can you all talk a little bit about how income influenced what you all learned?

Mark Winston Grifith: Yeah, and I will say that I don't, I'm not totally satisfied with how much we've engaged questions of class in, in this season. It's not to say that we haven't. I mean, it's intertwined with so much. But I would say the most striking example for me of, like, sort of where race and class sort of come together, is when we talk about the Battle of Forest Hills, and you have people protesting the introduction of housing projects. And there's a line that we say in there is that, like, it may or may not be Black people they don't want here, but, but certainly they were very explicit about not wanting to be next to poor people.

Max Freedman: They were insistent that they were not racist, that they had no problem with Black people, but they had no problem saying that they didn't want, uh, what they would have called “welfare people” around. Which of course was code for, for poor and Black. So that's a very obvious example of that.

Mark Winston Grifith: And, and what's, what's really striking about that is when, you know, it's something we kind of tuck in there, and I don't know to what extent people really held on to it. But, you know, after we talk about the Battle of, of Forest Hills, we see that that public housing project that was being introduced, they ended up building it, although at half the scale that they were originally thinking. But even after all of that, they still manage to keep the Black people out of the projects for the most part.

Andrew: Right, right. It was still, it was still like 70% White or something when it finally launched.

Mark Winston Grifith: Yeah. So even in that moment where, you know, poor people were able to make it in, those poor people were more acceptable at the end of the day because they were not Black.

Val: It's okay. Andrew knows I have a White supremacy headache that flares up in these conversations. And so, I don't know. I don't know how y'all have done this for two years. Um.

Mark Winston Grifith: I want to speak to a question you were asking before, talking about housing and housing policy and why we chose to make that a big part of the season. I think what's true of, not just folks that we focus on in this season, but just all of us in general (particularly those of us who identify with community and neighborhoods, and people who consider ourselves activists), we oftentimes see ourselves in a way where we, we’re like brand new.

We don't have a deep sense of what has come before, in institutions that have been established, and how we got to these places. And what was really frustrating in talking to people during the season was the extent to which people had such an ahistorical understanding and view of things.

And really, and that's not, that's, I don't want to say it's any fault of their own. But, had no sense of their neighborhood, had no sense of policy, had no sense of why things were they, they, they are. That is, people were looking around in District 28 and just saying, “Oh, it's this way because, you know, people are choosing to live this way,” with just a complete denial of how we got there. Not only that the past happened, but the past lives in the present.

And, particularly what was, what was really interesting about this story was not only the history in New York City that we were peeling back, but what was happening right there in Forest Hills. When you talk about, again, this Battle of Forest Hills, when you talk about Forest Hills Gardens and how that got started, and how that became a model for the building of neighborhoods across the country. You know, I think our naive hope was that people would hear that. Would see themselves and hear themselves in voices from the past, and would have a broader view on how we got here.

And, you know, my fear is that we're going to bludgeon people with this history, they'll get bored, But it's, it, it would be irresponsible to talk about these, these stories without panning back and seeing. You know, we, we think of our, we see ourselves in these very parochial ways? Really just getting to see the world around us and how we are a part of a continuum.

Max Freedman: And I'll add one thing about the Battle of Forest Hills, just cause I think you could hear the way that I described it and go, “Oh, it's one public housing complex and people got mad. Of course they did. This is what White people do, whatever. We have a word for it. You know, it's just, it's just NIMBY shit, um, it's not that surprising.”

Except that the Battle of Forest Hills became a national story because it happened at a real potential pivot point for public housing, for government housing. Um, and really for the sort of the, for, for the liberal state, for the New Deal liberal order. Um, in the sense that, this very active government intervention in the housing market, which was the building and public housing all over the country. In New York, the mayor and the New York City Housing Authority saw the ways in which that had done harm to people, and wanted to readdress that harm.

Andrew: Using the power of the government.

Max Freedman: Using the power of the government.

And instead what happened is that we just stopped building public housing.

And specifically because of the Battle of Forest Hills, um, as, as government officials acknowledged at the time, certainly put the stop on the idea of using government housing to integrate neighborhoods, in the way that they had wanted to do with the Forest Hills Houses.

That never happened and Forest Hills became a cautionary tale.

Mark Winston Grifith: Yeah. And, and, and that's when I, before I used the term “ahistoric,” but also people don't have a sense of the ripple effect and the impacts of what they're doing now on future generations. As far as policy, as, as far as people's lives. And so you, you have to understand that when you are in the position today, you are dictating policy and practice for generations to come. And that has an impact on countless lives and countless opportunities. And, and so when I talk about a continuum, it's not just looking backwards, it's also being conscious of, you know, what happens going forward.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I love that you find these, the, these people, these characters, so it's, like, easy to find yourself drawn to, you know, maybe either repulsed by, or kind of drawn to people from the past. Because I do think it kind of forces you to look at, “These were people very similar to me who are making decisions in this moment.

And here are these kinds of ripple effects,” and, and hopefully at least that does then push people to think, “Okay, well, like what am I doing now that 50 years from now there might be a podcast about?” Or a holographic-cast or whatever it's going to be 50 years from now! That is like, you know, how, what is that story that's going to be told 50 years from now about people here? Because there are certainly people who show up in the season, people from 50 years ago who don't come across that great. Like, what are we doing now to make sure that we are less likely to trigger that kind of reaction 50 years from now?

Val: There was one sassy part when you told the, the anecdote about the woman who moved into the house and the impact on her, um, family and generations, um, about when they built the community resources, and then the neighbors who were throwing tomatoes at them came over to start to use them? I was like, of course! Of course, because we all benefit from these well-designed beautiful communities where we can all be together.

There was one quote that came from one of the guests and it said, “Ah, where do the liberals go when it's in their community?” Love to hear some of your thoughts about that.

Max Freedman: Well, there are some people who think that they're liberals and they're just not. They're just lying to themselves about what that means.

Mark Winston Grifith: I mean, I. Let's think about it, though. I mean, the identification as a liberal has always had, sort of, uh,

Andrew: Hypocrisy baked in.

Mark Winston Grifith: Right. hypocrisy and latent racist tendencies too.

Andrew: Right. And, and to that quote, Val, I mean, I, it felt to me like there were these parallels between the fight over the housing project in Forest Hills and this fight over the diversity plan and, and and maybe so much of that is caught up in this idea of like where did the liberals go?

Max Freedman: Where did the liberals? Where do the liberals go?

Well, something that the Battle of Forest Hills and the fight over the diversity plan in the present have in common is the, the powers that be being caught totally flat-footed. Um, in Forest Hills, in the early seventies, the idea was out there that because Forest Hills was a Jewish neighbor, they would be more amenable to public housing than an Italian neighborhood. That project was originally planned for an Italian neighborhood. And they were like, “Oh, that's probably not gonna go so well.”

Um, uh, so they moved it over to Forest Hills and they thought that it would go better because Jews were more liberal. Uh were then and are now. Um, and, um, we saw what happened.

Um, I think similarly in the present, Forest Hills still has a reputation as being a liberal neighborhood.

But the flat footedness comes not just from the institutions, but also, um, from people in the community who might actually have been in support of the diversity plan, who were not organized.

It's very easy to organize based on fear, people who were organizing based on fear, organized very quickly and effectively to organize based on, um, you know, an idea of something positive that you want to, uh,

Andrew: That might or might not work. That's like,

Max Freedman: That may or may not work. Like, that's much, that's harder, longer, uh, more patient work.

And so those, those folks are out there. We've talked to them. And they are working, but that's a different kind of project, and they were not ready for this diversity plan, um, brouhaha in late 2019.

They're trying to get ready now for if it comes back and we're going to talk about that in the last episode of the season.

But the, the challenge that they face is that we're talking about (when the, the “they” that I'm talking about is still mostly White people) in the Northern part of the District who still struggle to build relationships across the Mason-Dixon line of the District.

Um, because everybody does.

Mark Winston Grifith: Right. And think of how many conversations have now been foreclosed on, you know? By this resistance to the Diversity Working Group and the working plan? Not necessarily because they oppose it, but the way in which it was opposed. And the passion with which it was opposed. Who's going to want to step into that conversation ever again? Right?

Andrew: You know, so you dig into this, like the process around Forest Hills Gardens and the kind of community engagement process. And, the, you know, “powers that be” being caught flat footed a little bit, which feels like a complete echo of where the whole season starts, which is this kind of diversity plan that all of a sudden people are showing up.

And no matter how many times this poor woman says “There is no plan right now,” nobody believes, nobody believes her! They're like,

Val: There was no plan.

Andrew: And I, I think as you said, right, like people show up when they're pissed. And so, like, you know, Forest Hills Gardens went through a whole community engagement process. They filed all the paperworks. Like, “Here it is, we've done the community engagement. Now we're going to start doing it.” And all of a sudden people show up and they're furious. Or you have this diversity plan where people are like, “I already know it's going to come because it happened in this other district.”And so they're going to show up furious.

But like, what, what is the, what does it look like to do this better? Like, what does, what does community engagement look like that actually brings people along, that doesn't just cater to the loudest voices. That doesn't just cater to the voices with the most privilege.Is there a better way? Certainly being caught flat-footed, we see doesn't work. But, like, what is it, what does it look like to do it better?

Max Freedman: This was supposed to be the better way. I mean, the thing, you know, the people who were behind this process in District 28 and these processes around the city believed that they were innovating a better version of community engagement around these issues. Um, and I do want to say (and we're gonna get more specific about this later in the season) the reason that the process stopped was not because of the parent opposition.

And I do think if you hear Episode One, you probably assume that it was this parent opposition that stopped the diversity plan and it's not true. It was the pandemic. So we actually do not know what would have happened. And they were, they were making plans to incorporate some of the feedback they got from these parent opponents and keep going. And they, then they did, just didn't get a chance because of covid.

Val: Mmm.

Mark Winston Grifith: Yeah, and let me say that while a lot of (people will roll their eyes at the idea of this) what had happened before in District 15 in Brooklyn, that was the template to some extent, or at least the inspiration for these diversity working groups. What people were really sort of pushing back against was the idea that these diversity groups were being organized and initiated through the DOE, right? But what you saw in District 15 is where parents came together, and decided that they did not like the segregation and the discrimination that was occurring within schools in their district. They did research. They organized. They got government, they got elected officials together, and they ended up creating a plan that in many ways was a partnership between a lot of different people. And they, they ended up having an impact on policy in District 15, that again, not everyone is in love with, but some people feel is an improvement on what was there before.

And so, there I think is a good example, not a perfect one because there is no perfect one, but a good example of how people talked to one another, they even argued, but they did it and they did research, and they came to an informed decision.

What I also mentioned in this series is that I was on the Community School District 16 Diversity Working Group. We also were paused because the pandemic. Actually, I shouldn't say pause, we probably just, it's probably stopped. But there you had a Diversity Working Group coming into a neighborhood that is still predominantly Black. And a lot of us were asking, well, this is not for us, this is for those, those crazy White people over there. Right?

And, and yet it began a conversation about how resources are distributed. It forced us to question how diverse as a Black community we are, and, and really sort of valuing that. And, it put us in the path for a conversation that ultimately was going to result in the improvement of schools in the District for everybody.

Now we will never know what's, what would have happened because, because again, the pandemic shut things down, and I don't think the current administration has any appetite for these kinds of things. But, I think you see glimpses of what could have been in, in other organizing that has occured.

Max Freedman: And I will say, you know, um, give credit where credit is due, there's a podcast episode about what happened in District 15 and it's the last episode of Nice White Parents, um, for the New York Times. And something that I think, um, Chana Joffe-Walt, who, who produced and hosts that show, um, hits on in that episode is talking about interest convergence. Which is the idea that, that, that part of what makes it, made District 15 happen was that you had people with different interests whose, whose interests converged.

And in District 28, you don't have that. You have a lot of people who feel like this system is working just fine for them.

Andrew: Right.

Max Freedman: People on the North Side. And that, that makes it much more difficult for something broad, with a broad base and, and grassroots to emerge. Also, cause, like, cause people just don't know each other, honestly, in this district.

Andrew: One of the things that Jerry Burback says in episode three is like he threatens to, you know, sell his house to a Black person. Basically that, like, this is like the ultimate threat, right? to the, to the neighborhood. “I will sell my house and leave.” And, and you see so many of, like, the echoes of that in the way that White parents often talk about public schools. Which is, you know, like, “If you don't give me everything that I want, I'm going to leave. I don't know if you see that kind of linkage to the way White parents continue to talk about schools from that threat.

Val: Mmm.

Mark Winston Grifith: Well, I will say that it drives so much public policy, right? Because, there's so many elected officials who see that as some of the ultimate threat, that middle-class White people are going to leave. They're going to take their tax dollars. They're going to take their “White sensibility.” They're going to take their resources. And then your neighborhood, your city, becomes a shithole, right? It becomes 1970s New York, where the Black and Brown people have “taken over” and it was lawless.

And so, that's proved to be in a very effective threat. Um, and we talk about it in this season, how it's something that elected officials all over consider, and it's part of what gives White people so much power. And it's power that they don't even fully, they never really fully appreciate. Um, the, the, the power that they wield when they are somewhere, or when they threaten to leave someplace.

Val: I appreciate you calling that out and that episode.

Max Freedman: Well, I appreciate that you heard that, um, parallel, because I hope that the people who have said that to us at the present also hear that parallel.

Andrew: Hear that. Right.

Max Freedman: I hope that they hear themselves. I don't know if they will. I don't know. I don't know if they're listening! But, I hope that they hear themselves, because it's the same. I mean, yeah, it's also not just White people.

Andrew: Right,

Val: I hope listeners hear themselves in the one speaker who said, “And so I didn't speak. And I was glad, cause I felt like I was the only person here who actually thought it was a good idea.” And so that not speaking up and not providing an opportunity for other people to stand with you. Right? So talking about being unprepared in that organizing space, but maybe her voice would have given other people courage, so.

Max Freedman: To her credit, that woman has spoken a lot since then.

Val: Okay, good!

Andrew: That's good. But yeah, I mean, that is that's the moment. And, and, you know, like you said earlier, anger is like a powerful, driving force. We've talked about this before, you know, like, it burns, it burns fast and, and bright and also burns out. So like, where is the moment, particularly as a White person to take that, kind of, power that you may not recognize and just stand up and say, “I think this is a good idea.”

We are constantly encouraging listeners to think about those opportunities and stand up and say something. Because it probably doesn't alter the course of history in massive ways, maybe? But maybe that is that kind of opportunity to kind of shape what, what the “holo-pod-graphical” whatever 50 years from now is talking about.

Max Freedman: I like how futurist this, uh, this episode has become.

Andrew: Not sure how we got here!

There's this theme that you can come back to a couple of times of, of, you know, I forget who said it, but something about, you know, “Folks just want to help the South Side. But, but, like, on behalf of the South Side, not with the South Side.” That there's been this, like, theme of like, “Well, I know what the South Side needs. I know how. We, we need to help, uh, help the South Side out,” or whatever, but it's not a “in relationship” with people. What do you

And it sounds like that's sort of what you were saying, Mark, is we look at places that it's successful and it may be as successful because there is actually a community that comes together and says “Our interests converge.Here's what we actually want. Let's go do this.”

And then I think there's, you know, maybe it's, neoliberalism, maybe it's kind of politicians who want an easy win. But it's like, “Well, let's just, like, copy and paste that somewhere else.” And if there isn't that same kind of community relationship and community buy-in, it feels like “doing to” rather than “doing with.”

Mark Winston Grifith: Right. And, and, and it's it. It was so striking how people were saying, “Look, all you have to do is fix those schools.” You know? Um, “Don't worry about mixing up kids. Don't worry about us over here on the North Side. All you have to do is fix those schools in the South.” And people just never saw themselves in relationship to those people in the South and did not see the extent to which their fates were connected.

And that's, that's the problem with self-interest. If you can only see the self-interest up to like the tip of your nose, then it's a problem. But if you can see your self-interest in not only in other people, um, growing and prospering, but being in relationship to them while that is happening, that is far different than what we were hearing coming from people in District 28.

Max Freedman: And I will say in the last episode of the season (I think) we are going to tie a lot of what we've talked about to, kind of, national politics and things that have happened around the country in the last two years.

Val: Yeah. In the self-interest talk, I think it's Cuomo and I pulled this quote, “Remember we have to do this because we love ourselves, not because we love them. In the end the only thing that works is self-interest.”

Andrew: Yeah. That quote was rough. Definitely encourage listeners to go listen to it. It does feel like maybe a single listen is plenty, but you know, you have Mario Cuomo saying just really appalling things about Black and Brown folks. And, basically kind of ending up on the side of, it is in our self-interest as White people to try to, I don't know, basically, like, make them better people. Um, Yeah.

Val: Yeah. How even in, again, that liberal space, when you're disparaging Black and Brown people and, under-resourced people, um, and it feels just gross. It just feels gross.

Mark Winston Grifith: Yeah, no, that, that, that, that quote you, that quote was like a low point for. It's it's a gut punch.

Val: Yeah. Y'all gave a warning, too. So, thank you for that.

Mark Winston Grifith: Right. That's true.

Val: Andrew knows this, so, we just moved into a neighborhood. I have a White neighbor, right to my left. A Black neighbor to my right. You know, White neighbors down here. Black neighbors down here. Latinx neighbors. We’re, like, super diverse. Picked it. Really excited about it.

None of the White parents send their kids to the public school that is a walk from here and across from a golf course.And I think I understand already, but, um, but I think even in that, right? Even with that neighborhood segregation, when we do have these integrated neighborhoods, that we really work to find, and to be a part of, and we can wave to our neighbors and I say, “What school do your kids go to?” It’s the charter or the private school.

I think I, I'm just shocked. Right? Because we've worked so hard. And so my kids' school, um, which is the 90 second drive away is all Black and Brown. And, that just befuddles me. Any insight that y’all have, just based on your reporting so far.

Mark Winston Grifith: Yeah. I mean, this is a constant theme for us, and it has been in, in, in both seasons. And in this season, you will actually hear a parent say, “Why doesn't anyone want to be with us? Why doesn’t anyone want to be with us?” And she's talking, she, this is a Black mother talking about the fact that what the opposition to the diversity planning process seemed to represent was people just recoiling at the idea of sharing space, sharing classrooms, sharing the neighborhood with Black people.

Now, I do think it is, it is more complicated than that. And at some, levels it's not! Right? There's a theme that I think we're going to come to in the last episode. You know, we can get really sort of in the weeds or in the sky about integration and segregation and why people do this and why people do that.

But at the end of the day, what we have to really come to grips with, is that classrooms and schools with Black people, the assumption is that they're inferior. The assumption is that the, that the education that they're providing is inferior. The assumption is “If you want a good education, you have to be next to a White body, or the very least, a non-Black body.” And, that's really difficult to hear. But it's something that I think is pervasive in New York City and across the country. And it's something that's not only internalized by White people and non-Black people, but I think by Black people as well. And so, you know, a big part of this season is not only asking why are people not coming to schools on the South Side where you have a predominantly Black neighborhood. But also why are predominantly Black schools persistently struggling?

And so, yeah. I, I don't know if I have a nice, neat answer for you, but, uh, it is one of the themes that we explore in this season. And I think one that we’ll always, that we're constantly trying to come to grips with. And as, as a Black parent myself, and as someone who has navigated those issues, it's something that I ask myself every day.

Andrew: The first half of the season-plus is, is great. Uh, it's another wonderful contribution, I think, to the conversation. The first season was amazing and this is, this is it too. I really appreciate the, the living into the nuance. The, you know, the idea that there is, that there are not simple answers to any of these things.

That housing is a problem and schooling is a problem. And, you know, we still have to try to fix both of them. That integration is potentially powerful and potentially harmful. And we have to, kind of, deal with both of those things. That, you know, the power of community, um, and, and coming together. I just feel like you guys do such a great job of, of leaning into all that and really, uh, yeah, grateful that it's out in the world and people can listen to it. And encourage everybody to go listen to all the episodes and, and the last couple that are coming out soon.

Val: Thank you all.

Mark Winston Grifith: We’re grateful that you, that you all listened to it and took notes. And came with those questions. You, you have no idea what that does for us!

Val: Oh, good! Good.

Mark Winston Grifith: Knowing that people, like, actively listened! You know?

Max Freedman: Yeah, I'm going to cry.

Andrew: Yeah, it's great. Well, yeah, best of luck! And, uh, it sounds, it sounds like there's 32 districts, so you've got about another 30 seasons to go and . . .

Mark Winston Grifith: Bite your tongue. Shut your mouth.

Andrew: Come back on when the next one's here, we'll look forward to hearing about it.

Thank you so much.

-----------------------

Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Val: Oh man! Like, always! I'm always left with, like, lots of learning, um, from all of these episodes. And thinking, and reflecting, and just grappling with, I think, just the fullness of what we're working with when it comes to creating integrated justice-oriented spaces. Right? Because it's not enough for us to be in the same city block as Queens has taught us. Right? There's still a lot of work to do to make them justice-oriented spaces.

One thing that I wanna talk about is, like, knowing the history of an area and how it's very easy to move in. Okay, I'm talking about myself! This is, this is a mirror. It's very, it's very easy to move into an area and just make assumptions about why things are the way they are, or make assumptions that people haven't been working to change the conditions that are there.

And so, my school district in Florida, like, we definitely needed to diversify the teaching population. And I thought that was gonna be really easy. What I did not know is that we were under a consent decree, I think it was up until 2006. And then, there was a lot of distrust, obviously, from members of the Black community, with how well the school district would educate the children in the Black community.

And so, I'm from a different part of Florida.I'm moving. I'm like, “Yeah, let's do this!”

Andrew: “I've got the answer! More Black teachers!”

Val: That’s right! Right! That's an easy fix! And I just naively went in, just not knowing about all the work that had been done before, and all the harm that had been done before. And just thinking, like, “I can fix this by myself.” Like, all I have to do is use my voice and I, I can fix this.

And so, I think, was it Mark who talked about, like, knowing the history of an area. Or being curious about the history of an area and knowing, like, the folks who have done the work before you.And having that historical knowledge of the area and the work that had been done.

So I, I wanna encourage folks to really spend some time inquiring about, like, “Why is the school district or this neighborhood the way it is? Like, what happened?” Cuz there is going to be a story behind that. These perfectly manicured neighborhoods don't show up just outta nowhere. Um, these gated communities don't just show up outta nowhere, right? There's intentional design, policy, things that make them so. And so, knowing that I think helps people understand what they're up against and, and the work that has been done and the work that needs to be done.

Andrew: Yeah. I totally agree with that. And it's easy to think about, you know, “Oh, I, I just arrived. So, like, I must be the first person to look and see that there's a problem here.”

Val: Right! “Maybe I'm the only one who sees this.”

Andrew: Right. Like, so, so maybe I do need to speak up and, and, and there is value obviously in speaking up. But I mean, I think even, so I'm, you know, moved back to the neighborhood where I grew up. Certainly have, like, some kind of historical context and understanding of the neighborhood, but even then, coming back here, the, there's like a, a Whitewashed version of the story that gets told. That it's, even if you've been in a place for a long time, I think there's, like, still work to do to then go out and learn. Like, what's the real history, what's actually happened here? Who are actually the voices who maybe don't get elevated, who maybe aren't the ones that make this nice, neat story that shows up in a magazine profile of a neighborhood? But who are the people who are out, kind of like, actually doing the work? And I've, I feel like I've spent a lot of time, even just in my own neighborhood that I feel like I know really well, learning and unlearning so many things about, about the past.

Val: Well, I can guarantee there have been marginalized voices that have spoken up. Right? I can guarantee. Because, as we know, and I hope continues to be a running theme through all of the conversations that we have, Black and Brown caregivers love their kids, want the best for their kids, don't want shortcuts for their kids. Right.

We know this, so we know that folks were, were speaking up in spaces where their children aren’t being served.

Andrew: Yeah. There's a lot tied up in that, you know, one, one piece of it is the way that we White and otherwise privileged folks are able to kind of manipulate the system to actually get better quality for our own kids. To, you know, use the school choice processes or the charters or the magnets, or, you know, whatever the kind of tools are in your district to get into a place that is actually probably doing a pretty good job of serving your White kids, at least academically.

And then there's, yeah, there's the lack of relationships. There's the lack of understanding and this narrative that Black and Brown folks don't care about education, that then, you know, kind of gives this permission structure to be like, “Well, I, I care about education. So I know what's best and I'm gonna come in and, and” you know, “I'm brand new here.

And the problem is that I have not yet been in your school. The reason your school is not great is because I have not yet come–

Val: Wooh!

Andrew: –you know, be, bestowed my, my, my,” what Mark talked about, like, “‘White sensibilities’ on your school. And that's why it has not been successful yet.”

Val: Yeah, no, that sounds like a hot mess! Um. And it sounds like the truth, right? It sounds like the way some parents approach, unfortunately, even the, with the best intentions, some of these integration efforts. Right? And, I think that's why it's essential that you need a community to help be a mirror to how you're showing up. You need some other folks to say, “Hey, you know, I need you to slow down a little bit,” or “I need you to like, listen a little bit to what is happening.”

Andrew: Redirect that enthusiasm–

Val: Right. Correct. Absolutely.

Andrew: –in a more helpful way. Yeah. And that piece of kind of White parents able to get what they want, or privileged parents able to get what they want, that I think, you know, we talked about in the, in the conversation about District 28. You know, District 15 had this, like, interest convergence. That there were a lot of folks with a lot of, you know, from a, a lot of varying backgrounds with a lot of different amounts of kind of social capital, who all felt like things weren't working exactly the way they wanted it to.

And then you end up in this place here where you've got this kind of enclave of folks who are like, “No, actually things are fine for me.” And those are the folks with the most kind of, uh, unearned power and capital, and they're sort of, like, “Yeah, sure! Like, we would like better schools, but like don't try to fix it in my neighborhood.

Val: Like, fix them. Yeah. “Fix them. You can leave us out of this.” Now you said like, don't fix this in my neighborhood, and I will tell you, I need a, I need a White secret, ‘cause it seemed like you and Max knew what was going on and I did not. What is NIMBY?

Andrew: Yeah, NIMBY. Not In My Backyard.

Val: Ah! Ahh!

Andrew: Yep. And it, uh, yeah, I think you, you see it all over the place. “NIMBYism” the like progressive ideals are worthwhile, but–

Val: Ooh.

Andrew: – not if they affect me at all. Right?

Val: Oh, I'm using that!

Andrew: “We should definitely have renewable energy, but not if it means a windmill that blocks my view of the ocean. We should definitely have integrated schools, but not if it means my kid doesn't get the, um, you know, extra special, double, advanced honors version of school. We should definitely have more affordable housing, but you certainly can't put it anywhere near my house.

That is the kind of, yeah, NIMBYism.

Val: You should not teach me a new word you don't want me to use, because literally every other, every, every other episode, every other episode, I be like, “Mm-mm! Look at NIMBY. That sound some NIMBY-ism some over there!”

And, you know, I'm glad we can, we can laugh together, and still understand, um, just the seriousness of what we are trying to accomplish. And it's my hope that people are pausing to reflect on their own actions and their ideas and how they might be showcasing NIMBYism. And I think, I think folks probably assume, like, “I can't, I'm not, I certainly am not doing that much harm. It's just my kids’ elementary school. It's just my kids' middle school. It's just my kids' high school. It's just, like, I'm not doing that much harm. You know, I'm just looking out for my kid.” And I think we just have to expand the ways in which we imagine the future where it's not just looking after my kid. It's how do we look after all the kids?

Like, literally all the kids can win. They can all win!

Andrew: Right. Yeah. And yeah, I loved that, that, that Mark was talking about of, kind of the, the, the ripple effects. You know, the, these small choices that parents are making. These small decisions, these small policy decisions that get made at a Community Education Council meeting with 30 people that 50 years from now, like what, what path have they set us on?

What are the ways in which that ripples out into the future? And, kind of, what responsibility do we have to engage, to show up, to speak up to, to, you know, be a voice for justice, to be a voice for positive change. Because, on the one hand, no one person is going to solve this. Certainly, you know, me saying that I am in favor of a diversity plan does not by itself, you know, solve racism in the country. And there is this way in which all the decisions we make have this ripple effect into the future. And I think we have to be, we have to, like, carry that the, the burden of that responsibility and take that seriously.

Val: I was able to listen to Dr. Hasan Jeffries recently, and something that he said that really stuck out to me was, you know, “We are not responsible for the past, but we are responsible for the future.” Right? So every choice that we make, every decision that we make, um, it matters in how we shape the world moving forward.

And, I think that's just something important to consider. Like, how can you leave this place better?

Andrew: Yeah. Yep. That's what we're trying to do here, Val.

Val: That's right.

Andrew: Some other people who are trying to leave the world better in, in yet another incredibly well-placed segue, are some students, uh, in New York City, uh, the Miseducation Podcast, we had them on, uh, awhile back on one of their earlier seasons. They have a new series out that is called Keeping Score, set in one building.

It's called the John Jay Educational Complex um, which just says a whole lot just right there.

Val: Says a whole lot!

Andrew: It's one big brick building in Brooklyn that has four separate high schools inside of it. Each school, they're all on a, their own floor. And they all are kind of totally separate universes with different demographic makeups, and different focuses. But they have a volleyball team and, uh, the students put together a very compelling podcast about, you know, what the promise is of sports as a tool for integration. And so, we're gonna take a little listen to a preview of that. Encourage folks to go and listen to.

Val: Go students. Okay.

Keeping Score: The New York public school system has been called the most racially segregated in the country. So many kids want to make a change. But a high school girls volleyball team is redefining what it means to play together. I want this to work. I really do, because it has the potential to be incredibly anti-racist. From WNYC studios and The Bell, it's Keeping Score.

Listen to this special series on the United States of Anxiety, wherever you get podcasts.

Andrew: So, yes. Go check out the Miseducation Podcast. Search for “United States of Anxiety” anywhere you get your podcasts and check that out.

Val: You can get the School Colors podcast in the Code Switch feed.

Andrew: And you can always get our podcast right here on our own feed, where we will keep having these conversations! We'll keep trying to find some joy, and it is still our summer break, but we will have a few special treats coming.

Val: Yeah we will!

Andrew: Starting in July, we are re-running our Between We and They series, so be on the lookout for that. And we'll be back in the fall with a whole new season and all sorts of great new conversations.

Val: I can't wait.

Make sure you subscribe to our Patreon. It helps make this podcast go and we want to keep going. Invite friends to listen, share the study guides. We want this conversation to continue to spread out.

Andrew: patreon.com/integratedschools. We'd be grateful for your support and Val, I am so grateful to get to continue to be in this with you as I try to know better and do.

Val: Until next time, which is not too long!