S7E11 – A Framework for Antiracist Education

S7E11 - A Framework for Anti-racist Education

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is A Framework for Anti-racist Education. Val, this is one, I mean, I guess I say this every week. I'm excited for this episode, but I'm really excited for this conversation today and not least of which, because for the past 10 episodes now, you have been showing up as Val, a Black mom from North Carolina. And you've been doing an amazing job. It has been awesome to have you.

Val: Thank you. Thank you.

Andrew: But you also do have a job, that is not this podcast. The job that I am quite often distracting you from. And you get to show up and talk about that work today, at the Center for Anti-Racist Education. You want to tell us about it?

Val: Yeah. So I'm the Academic Director for the Center for Anti-Racist Education also called CARE. And we had a chance to talk about some work that we're doing with one of my favorite humans on earth, Brittany, a Black woman from Wisconsin.

Andrew: She is very much from Wisconsin.

Val: I love it.

Andrew: Yes, Brittany is awesome. You have collected a number of fine folks over there…

Val: Oh man.

Andrew: …at CARE. Yeah.

Val: So our goal is to equip anti-racist educators with the knowledge and skills that they need to do the work and the curriculum to help them do it well.

Andrew: Yeah. And how long have you been at CARE?

Val: It's been a little over a year now that we've been setting the foundation for this work. And we're really excited that we have things to share with the world that are really resonating with people.

Andrew: Things like this framework that we'll hear about in the episode. It's a powerful tool that I think lots of educators are finding use in. And I think also, I mean, I, as not an educator, found a lot of use in it as well. So hopefully folks will download it and spread it around.

Val: That is my and our hope, because really this work is about creating an anti-racist future that we can all thrive in. And, you know, we've talked about that before. Those are our goals here as well. So I think it's a nice fit.

Andrew: Yep. You never get a break from this Val.

Val: Ahhh, I don't.

Andrew: It’s all this work, all the time.

Val: I don't get a break. But maybe… I'm trying to find a hobby that's... That should be part of our outro next time. How's my hobby going?

Andrew: We'll be checking in on your hobby.

Val: Alright.

Andrew: Let's take a listen.

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Brittany Brazzel: I am Brittany Brazzel. I am a Wisconsin living, Wisconsin loving it, tundra winter, oh my gosh. I'm a mother of two. Happily married. I work for the Center for Anti-Racist Education as a professional development specialist, with Val, my awesome supervisor.

Andrew: That's great. I love that when you said Wisconsin, you really leaned into the Wisconsin accent.

Brittany Brazzel: It's thick.

Val: Well, I love it, ‘cause at this point when I read messages or emails I say it in your voice. It's, I love it. It’s my favorite.

Brittany Brazzel: It's thick. I try to hide it sometimes. And then I'm like there's no hiding that. Like, there is no hiding.

Val: Let's go, go with it.

Andrew: Yeah. We'll talk about CARE in a minute, but how'd you find yourself engaged in anti-racist education work? What in your background brought you here?

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. So I decided to become a teacher pretty late in the game in terms of. Teachers usually know they want to be teachers at a really young age and I was not that person. I almost didn't even graduate high school. So for me to then get into education, I definitely got into it with the mindset that I'm going to be that teacher I wish I had. Like, I want to be that kind of rebel kind of teacher that can engage with kids and understand kids, because all kids are going through something.

So I wanted to be that educator. So as I was going through my teaching courses, if you will, you started to kind of hear “culturally responsive teaching” and “equity” started to kind of creep in there, but nobody really said anti-racist or anti-racist education.

So I didn't have that language or really that framework until I was probably two, three years in, where one day I was kind of sitting, I was, like “oh, we're just being anti-racist, like, why can't we use that word? Why is nobody using that word?” And so from there, I really decided to just go hard.

And I started with just learning history, reading books. Then I found Clear the Air on Twitter, which Val, you know, is a superstar of that. So I found my community. So it was really like this perfect alignment of the stars, of me kind of learning my history, finding a community that I could engage with professionally, and then I really started to just focus on myself and who I wanted to be as a teacher. And, kind of, started unpacking my upbringing and why I hated school and how did I then become a teacher? So it was kind of a two year period of just learning and growth, before I finally was like, wait a second, I'm an anti-racist educator. I am a social justice, anti-racist educator champion and I'm going to own it. And then from there I was just trying to get anybody who would listen to me, who wanted to learn with me, and it kinda just stuck. Now I’m in it.

Andrew: That's great.

Val: I’m so lucky, Andrew.

Andrew: Obviously.

Val: I really am. I really, really am.

Andrew: Can you say a little more about what it was like as you were unpacking those things in your background that made you hate school that made you feel, like, disconnected from that? What were some of those things and have you sort of tried to push back against that?

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. So in my community, when I was going to school, we were probably a 90-10% district, 90% White, 10% Other, if you will. So I always felt different. I always felt like an outlier. I always felt like I wasn't supposed to be there. And my sophomore year of high school, we have counselor meetings where, they are essentially you meet with your counselor, you start planning your future. And I had never really thought about my future. I'm a sophomore, you know, I just got my license, like I'm trying to enjoy life. But my counselor brought me in and very openly said, you know, “I don't think you're college material. So let's look at, kind of, these trades.” And I was like, “Trades? What? No. I want to go to college. I think.” But to hear those words out loud from an adult who is supposed to help me kind of prepare for that part of my life, I shut off. I was done. That was, that was my tipping point. I was like, well then why, if I'm not college material, then why am I going to school?

Andrew: Why finish high school?

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. 100%.

Val: That’s a great, I mean, very honest reflection, right?

Brittany Brazzel: 100%. And I was just done with it and I was not a bad student. You know, I am thankful that I kind of learned the system. Okay, if I do my homework and if I kind of study for a test and pulled Bs and Cs, I'll be alright.

I enjoyed learning. I really loved history. It was kind of my subject. But after hearing that, I was done and I just attended school socially for the rest of the year. But by senior year, I was done. Like, I think, gosh, I would love to pull up those attendance reports from my senior year. They are bad. They are bad. I do remember my mother sitting me down one night, like you're going to have to go to court for truancy. I had never heard that.

Val: Wow.

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. I mean, I was not going to school. I was like, I don't need you anymore. And I figured I'll get a job in retail. I'll make some cash, I'll move out and I'll just live my life. And so I had, gosh, probably three years outside of graduating. And then I finally was like, wait a second, I need an education. Like I gotta get a real job. I can't work retail for the rest of my life.

Val: You didn't name this in your story with the guidance counselor and, just for the listeners, do you think your racial identity had anything to do with how she saw you and your potential?

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. I've thought about it a lot. And up to that point, there really was no indicator academically that I couldn't make it in college. I was a basketball player. I was heavily involved with our music program. You know, I was pulling Bs and Cs. So there was really no reason to suspect. So yeah, I do think racially, especially at that time, I mean, I could tell you who the Black kids were in my class. We didn't have a large Hispanic population at that point. And we didn't have a large Asian population. So it was very much White and Black. Um, you know, so I think about it. I, you know, she never said like, “Hey, I'm racist today. I don't think you should be…” You know?

Andrew: They don’t usually. Unfortunately, they don't usually.

Brittany Brazzel: Exactly. I wish! It would make things easier.

Val: That would help, that would help.

Brittany Brazzel: Oh gosh. But yeah, I do think about that. What other indicator besides my race could have led you, a school counselor, to say, “you're not college material.”

Val: Hmm. That’s tough.

Brittany Brazzel: I don't know.

Andrew: What was that moment when you decided, okay, I actually need to go back? What was the transformation that pushed you back into schooling?

Brittany Brazzel: Oh, yeah, the turning point was I became a mother. I became a mother and looked at my son and was like, this retail electronics job is not going to give you the life that I want you to have. And so I immediately enrolled in a program. I went down the history route and I was like, you know what? I could be a history teacher. I could be a teacher. Hey, I could be, you know, the teacher that would have helped me and, you know, taught me all these things and opened my eyes to all of these things. I really didn't want to be... I wanted to be the teacher that I wanted as I was going through high school.

Andrew: That's beautiful.

Val: Isn’t it?

Andrew: And so that took you to CARE. And, Val, can sort of give us a little overview of what CARE is?

Val: Yeah. So, the Center for Anti-Racist Education, our mission is to equip anti-racist educators and advance anti-racist curriculum. And we understand that the two go hand in hand. So even if we give you the best book, some of the books that we talked about on the podcast, there's still a lot of damage you can do, if you are not equipped as an educator to have these conversations around race and racism.

And so, while we definitely believe it's important to talk about these things, we also believe it's important for the adults who are having these conversations to go through their own process of being prepared for them, right? Because what we don't want is for additional harm to be caused in having these conversations.

And so, in 2020, obviously there was a lot of activity nationally and globally around racial justice and anti-racist support. And so, we were like, how can we contribute to the conversation in a way that makes learning how to be an anti-racist educator really tangible, applicable? I can. I know how to take the steps to do it. That's the work we have attempted to do.

Andrew: Yeah. And so that's how this CARE framework came to be.

Val: Right. So we started with five principles, right? Because, again, and to Brittany's point, you know, there's lots of words that are out there for anti-racism. And it's still one of those words where people don't actually know what that means. So we started with those five principles. Something that we wanted people to be able to remember and like list off.

Andrew: So let's hear them. What are the five principles?

Val: In the research for the principles, I think we found a lot of examples, currently, that we think fall on our first principle: affirm the dignity and humanity of all people. Right? So it's a lot about caring for students, belonging. So our first principle is affirming the dignity and humanity of all people.

The next one, we recognize that people don't know a whole lot of our nation's history or our world's history around race. And so embracing those historical truths which, you know, as you can tell right now in our country, we're having a difficult time wanting to do that. And there's efforts to keep us from doing that. And so embracing those historical truths will help us, you know, just be honest about our past so that we can move forward.

And then that third one, that developing that critical consciousness, I think that's a lot of what we do on the podcast, where you and I are talking through some things and learning how to see the world from each other's perspectives and just really thinking through that, right? And I think that is a skill that as you develop it, you can't turn that one off, right? So you're looking at everything differently in the world, and that's what we want young people to do.

That fourth one, recognize race and confront racism. We recognize, in schools especially, there's a hesitancy to name race. And there's also a hesitancy for whatever reason to confront racism. And I can't figure out why. ‘Cause I think that, you know, we've all decided in history that racism is bad. I think we've decided that, but for whatever reason, it's difficult. I think, right? I know that was like, hmm.

Andrew: I would like to think so. Some people definitely have.

Val: I think we've decided racism is bad. At least we're trying to fix it on this podcast and we will by the end of this episode, but.

Andrew: No pressure, Brittany.

Val: No pressure, no pressure, Brittany. We asked the guests to fix racism while they're here.

Brittany Brazzel: We got it. We got it.

Val: And so recognizing race and confronting racism is something that, although it seems pretty simple, is not something folks regularly do, including educators, right? And as we get people more comfortable with normalizing conversations about race and confronting the racism, we hope that will speed up this process to our anti-racist future.

And then, of course, creating just systems, right? Really thinking about how the whole system functions. And I think that's also a lot of the work of Integrated Schools. Like how to push on the system to make sure that it is the place that we want for all of our kids to go to school.

So those are the foundational points and I think they will stand the test of time. And I think there's something that people can get behind.

Andrew: Yeah, shared humanity, historical truths, critical consciousness, race, and racism, and just systems. And those are kind of these five pillars that then, this framework that you created kind of, helps educators, school leaders, principals figure out how do I look at these and say, “Okay, these are important. Now what?”

Val: Right. So what do I do now that I recognize, yes, I want to affirm someone's humanity. Here are the skills, behaviors that you can do, to help reach those goals.

Andrew: Yeah. Brittany, what of those? I mean, they're not hierarchical. It's not like you do one and then you graduate to the next. You have to kind of be doing them all at the same time, but was there one of those principles that stuck out more to you or felt, kind of, resonated more with you in your experience?

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the biased-history buff in me gravitates towards historical truth. I'm really a firm believer in getting that context and that foundation, because, as Val said, we just really do not know our history. We know parts of it. We know, kind of, big highlights. But in terms of, kind of, the nitty gritty to how we got to those highlights, we don't know. It's hidden. So I gravitated towards that.

But then I also gravitate towards critical consciousness because you really do, when you start to work on how to see things, what you're looking for, and really kind of tying that into who you are as a person, it just changes your whole life. I mean, I can't even watch TV without looking at commercials and being like, did you see that? Did you just see what they did there? Like, who's their diversity team? Come on. You know? And so, right?

Val: Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, how did this get on TV?

Andrew: There is not one Black person on your staff? Seriously?

Val: Not one?

Brittany Brazzel: Right. How many people saw this before it aired? So that one is really impactful, just because it really changes just the way you walk, think, speak. And it's really cool because once that light bulb turns on, you can't shut it off, you can not turn it off. It's so cool.

Andrew: I want to go back to the historical truth, because one of the things that I appreciated in the framework is this idea of balancing stories of oppression with those of agency, resistance, and perseverance. There's sort of, the first step is like, okay, let's actually tell the story of how brutal slavery was. But if that's all we ever tell, then the story is kind of all like, “woe is Black people.” And they have only been victims. Can you speak to that, telling the other side of that a bit?

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. 100%. I think when I started my deep dig into just learning American history. Oh, I was angry. I was so upset because… And I'll be the first to admit this, when I found out and learned who James Baldwin was, I was very late, very late in my years. And when you learn and you read his words and you realize that that was kept from you or hidden. And I didn't have access to that, at an age when I needed to have access to that. Oh, it just, it just gets my blood boiling. And then I start to think...

And I have all these memories of sitting in history class. And, okay, you know, slavery's coming up, you know, the Civil Rights Movement’s coming up. And in my case, you know, being one of few Black students in the classroom, you just get this feeling of dread and angst. And it just sucks, because, you know, soon as they say the word Black or African-American or slavery, you just hear chairs creak, you know? You hear papers shuffle and people start looking at you. Because they also don't have access to the history. And so they're going to look for that one reference: “oh, the Black kid in the back.”

So it's just a tension-building, awful moment. And it can be solved by just presenting all of the sides, the good, the bad and the ugly. You know, if I would have learned about slavery alongside Frederick Douglass, that's a totally different experience for every kid in that class. And so I really appreciate the fact that we've highlighted, “Yeah. You're going to have to talk about some ugly and dark things, but a lot of really beautiful, good, just, amazing examples were happening at that same time.” So put them together. Like, what harm is that going to do to share the good and the bad together?

Val: To your point, Brittany, what a difference it would have, I think, also made as a student to learn more about the collective action that people took across racial lines, right? And so I think part of the issue. And Andrew, I would like you to speak for all White people.

Andrew: Yes ma'am.

Val: But part of the issue is like, I think, Black folks in that situation that you described are sitting with shame, you know, and White folks are sitting with guilt, right? And not figuring out how to have that conversation together, where we know since the inception of slavery, there have been people who opposed it. And there've been people who oppose it of different racial identities, right? So why don't we know those stories? And how much more empowering would those stories be and how much further along in our journey would we be, if those were the conversations that we had about these very terrible things. There were some terrible things, and there were people always fighting against those terrible things. I think it would make a huge difference for White people, who are fearful of having the conversation, if they knew part of the conversation also included, there are people who work together to oppose all of these bad things that you hear about.

Andrew: Yeah, that piece feels so important to me and like such a tricky line to walk because, on the one hand, like, I feel a tendency, like, “oh no, like, not all White people. Like don't associate me with that and, kind of, like, I'm not one of them,” which kind of absolves me of my own role right now in pushing back on these systems in some ways.

But then it feels like we are asking White people to come up, brand new, today with a new way to be White people. And we actually don't need to do that, right? There are historical examples. Like the abolitionist movement was full of White people. There were White people who were deeply committed to these ideas.

If we can tell those stories as well, then it sort of, there's like a, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel here, we are trying to tap into something that has been part of some strands of White culture all along. And how do we kind of pull those bits out, without ignoring the harm that so many White people do, without pretending that there's not some obligation for White people now to try to push the ball forward? But that we're not doing it in a vacuum or we're not trying to come up with it brand new, right now.

Val: I think you're exactly right. And I wonder how many White people know the name of a White abolitionist that they’re like, yeah, I want to be just like… Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman. Like, can White people name those people, right? And just the power of being able to have, like you said, that specific example, that historical example of here's someone who I am inspired by and is doing the work.

Did you know that there was a White guy at the March on Washington, out there, lighting it up. I think it's Walter Reuther and he says, “there's a lot of talk about brotherhood. And then some Americans drop the brother and keep the hood.”

Brittany Brazzel: Walter. Walter said that.

Val: Walter was not playing.

Andrew: Wow. Wow.

Val: Walter was not playing. So get you some Walter, get you some Walter.

Andrew: Yep. That's good stuff.

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah, there are, especially during, you know, the forties, fifties, and sixties, there are White abolitionists out there that were doing the work without fear, and they were empowered to do the work.

And I think, as a kid in a classroom, like, I want my students to feel that. I desperately tried to create that environment where my entire class could engage in these conversations, because oftentimes this is their first experience with it. And how cool is it to have, you know, a totally integrated classroom of kids from different backgrounds and experiences and knowledges, just questioning and sharing and learning. I mean, I think that's what all teachers want is that kind of magic that can happen. And that comes from being intentional about balancing, kind of, that oppression and that power.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, White people have been plenty centered in historical narratives. You know, we don't want to, like, refocus the Civil Rights Movement on White people. But not ever holding out those, like, I can't think of, I don't have a name now. I'm thinking about that. I don't have a name and I feel like that's a problem. I got some homework to do.

Val: Yeah, ‘cause I'm here for the solidarity. I really am. So we gotta figure out how to do this together.

Andrew: Yeah, but we don't have to figure it out from scratch. I mean, and that's the…

Val: Exactly.

Andrew: Yeah. Let's talk about some of these other principles. Maybe dig in a little more. You know, thinking about the value and possibility in all students. Why does that need to be one of these core principles?

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah, I mean, I'll take you back to my counselor. If my counselor had this framework in, you know, 2000, whatever it was. You would've seen me as a valuable person, as a human, a thinking, learning child, you know, 15, 16 years old during that conversation.

And I just think sometimes we forget in classrooms that every student really, truly is a gift. They are walking through that door, bringing their best self in that moment, and we should be tapping into that. I would have conversations with colleagues and just kind of get emotional. Once these kids graduate, they could close their social circles if they want. Never again. If they choose to be in integrated spaces, they can say, “you know what? I've done that. I did my K-12 years. I'm done.” And they could really close off and isolate. And then what? That's going to help absolutely nothing. And so there really is magic in that classroom. But, we have to make sure that every single student is looked at and thought of as the best, you know. Let them kind of just come in as themselves and just go. And that does not happen often. That is not the majority of experiences in classrooms across this nation.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Let's talk about race and racism, naming race and racism in the classroom. How does that play out? Why is it important and, I guess, they all sort of blend together, but how do you differentiate that in your minds, between creating just systems and naming race and racism? Are those… They feel closely related to me, but maybe I'm missing something.

Val: Yeah, I think for me, they kind of all feed into creating just systems. Like, if we are doing the things that come before that one, you can't help but create a just system. Because if you actually affirm the dignity and humanity of someone, then that would be a just system that you would want to have for them.

About the race situation. I think something that we have to remember, and I can't remember who said this exactly, but, as educators, we are the adults in the room, right? And so it's very easy for us to model talking and grappling with our own understanding of race and racism in a way that young people may not, right?

And so, how do we start to normalize that? And so, even if we're reading a text or, you know, if we're studying a historical figure, or there's something in the news, right? I mean, like, “man, from my perspective, as a Black woman, here's what I'm thinking. Here's how I've seen the world. Here's how it connects to my experience.”

And so even beginning to normalize that, I think, goes a long way. And just recognizing that we all have a racialized experience and it's not going to be the same experience.

I think sometimes, there can be feelings of frustration amongst students when another student doesn't understand their experience, just because they haven't lived it. And until we start talking about that, we won't ever know, right? And so how do we, how do we normalize that? How do we have those conversations? And I think as the adult in the room, the educator can absolutely model what that looks like.

Andrew: Is there some tension in that? I feel like, maybe I have an overly simplified view of what teaching is, but you know, on some level, as the teacher, you are there to be the expert. You are there to share the truth, to be the voice that knows what is what. And it feels like there's some tension between that role and the role of acknowledging that there are different experiences. That here is my one experience and you might have another experience and those are also valid. You know, how do you think about holding both of those things at once?

Brittany Brazzel: You triggered me with my teaching experience, because there are kind of two lanes of teachers. There are some teachers who really do truly, “I'm the expert. I know it. I've been doing this for however many years.” And then there are teachers that are, “I'm not the expert. I'm here to learn with all of you.” And so, I think you're right. I think there are some teachers that want to hold on to that kind of expertise.

So I think you just have to kind of grapple with what kind of teacher you're going to be. And really, as parents, also, who would you rather have your student learn from? Somebody that's kind of guiding and learning with your student as more of a mentor really? Or somebody who's going to just throw all of this content knowledge at them?

Val: So, I enter in these classroom spaces knowing that, historically, Black woman perspectives have been minimized anyway. So the idea that anyone would accept what I said as complete truth, never even crossed my mind. Like, you know, so, and I don't know. I don't know.

Brittany, I agree with everything you said, and I'm wondering, I'm just processing now. Like, did I approach teaching as we're learning together versus here's my knowledge because of my positionality as a Black woman and people are gonna question my version of the story, you know? I don't know, but I think that that's some of it. But I never approached teaching like I have all the knowledge and you have nothing to contribute.

So I don't know if it's a simplified understanding of teaching, but I would love for more teachers to adopt the idea that our young people have something valuable to offer and make room for their voices in the curriculum and in conversations. And I think those, that type of action goes a long way in creating the anti-racist system that we want, right?

Andrew: Say more about that. The connection between that.

Val: Yeah. So, for me, that goes right into affirming the dignity and humanity of all people. And it goes right into creating a just system. And it goes right into developing a critical consciousness, right? So I see a student who might be considered an outsider or marginalized. I am elevating their voice in the classroom, because I am showing the other students in the class, their voice matters as much as everyone else's voice. And so now I’m acting in a way that demonstrates that. And my system has changed.

And it's forcing the other students to be like, hey, I might have overlooked XYZ marginalized person before, but I have a student in my class who always has something good to say, and the teacher is always encouraging them. And so now when I go out into the world and I see a person that looks like that, I am not automatically assuming that they don't have anything to contribute.

So I think they're really simple actions. I do. Like, I don't think anything that we have put into this framework is so out of reach that every educator can't do it. It really makes me wonder why this is not done yet.

Andrew: Yeah. If every kid who shows up in your building, in your classroom, has humanity and has something to offer and you can create a system that acknowledges that, then everybody benefits and the system becomes more just.

Val: Absolutely. We don't want anybody pushed out to the outside. We don't have school within schools. We don't have some schools having more resources than the others.

Andrew: Yeah. The principal at my kid's school talks a lot about, like, teaching as, like, facilitating learning. What the teacher's job is to actually just facilitate the learning. And that you're building their skills and their competencies and their ability to engage in conversation and productive dialogue and learn how to research and do all these things. But the kind of direct transfer of knowledge, like filling up their little empty brains with your facts, is not so much what's important.

Val: And I'm glad you asked that question as a parent–I really am because–as a parent who isn't a teacher. Like most of the parents I know are also educators, right? So I don't know what parents who aren't educators think should happen in school. So that was really illuminating for me.

Andrew: Yeah. That ability to engage in it as a learner with your students. I mean, that makes perfect sense to me. And it's certainly not the vision that I have of any of the teachers that I had growing up. That was not the model that I was exposed to. And I think we often assume that schools are exactly the way they were when we were growing up, you know, like nothing has changed in education.

And I see a lot of conflict arising among parents in classrooms and stuff like, well, where's the worksheet we're supposed to be working on, or this new math doesn't make any sense to me. And it's like, yeah, like teaching is not happening, fortunately, is not happening the same way it was 20, 30, 40 years ago because the profession has grown, right?

Val: That's it. Because we have Brittany to say like, I'm going to be the teacher that I needed.

Brittany Brazzel: 100%, 100%. I would love for parents to read the framework and be like, “I don't want my teacher to do this.” You know, like every component, every indicator that is in that framework, I would hope parents would read that and go, “oh, if my child's teacher was doing even half of these. Wow. I know they're in good hands.” You know, we're not out here to harm kids. That’s not our intention. The system we work in was created to harm kids.

Andrew: Some kids.

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. The system, the entire education system is and has been set up to only allow a certain small percentage of students to thrive and survive.

Andrew: Yeah. And I guess, yeah, maybe to like push back on myself. I mean, I do think actually, it is actually harming all kids. It is clearly not harming all kids equally. But even those kids that the system is setting up to quote unquote thrive are not thriving the way they could if everybody's humanity was being recognized. If everybody was learning historical truths, if everybody was developing that critical consciousness, and you know, naming race and racism, and thinking about just systems, that actually benefits all of our kids.

Like my kids are much better off for all the ways that these things are happening in the building that they are in right now, and would not be as well situated to be contributing positive members of society, if they were in a space where they were just getting the resources and the attention that only the privileged White kids get to, kind of, set them up to quote unquote thrive.

Brittany Brazzel: Absolutely.

Val: I'm reading the framework again and I'm still so thankful to the group who helped author this. But you know, thinking about a parent reading this… Selects materials and resources that positively reflect the identities of students, families, and the community. There's nothing to be mad about with that, right? Continuously evaluates and adjusts practices to better ensure that all students feel safe, welcomed, and valued. Uses questioning strategies to develop student thinking and analysis skills, right? Like there's nothing evil or harmful in any of these, because our vision of an anti-racist future is one where everyone has everything that they need.

And yeah, I hope parents do read it and do start asking questions about how to make these realities possible for the schools in which they send their kids.

Brittany Brazzel: Like I just, I used to wish and pray more parents would show up at a school board meeting. You know, teachers, we have some power to change systems in the district, but really that comes from the community, that comes from families, that comes from parents being involved, showing up at meetings, questioning, you know, district leadership. In terms of real true system change, it has to come from parents.

Val: I think to your point, Brittany, one of the reasons why they don't know to do that is because they are still developing their critical consciousness, which I think is the power of Integrated Schools and this podcast and the book studies, right? Like this is active, critical consciousness development that is happening.

And so pat yourself on the back, because it's like, this is part of the work, right? We're definitely modeling analytical thinking. We're definitely building in meaningful conversations for us to understand power, systems, each other. Like the work is happening here. That's the only reason why I said yes.

Brittany Brazzel: It's true. We don't work where there's no work.

Val: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.

Andrew: Yeah. In the sort of opening you encourage school leaders to engage caregivers and community members with the framework and be transparent about your goals for an anti-racist school. How have you seen that play out in ways that are helpful? And what can parents do to show up for that, to support that, to give the school leaders the kind of positive reinforcement and encouragement to keep doing that?

Brittany Brazzel: I think for me in my community around here, we had about a year where equity was kind of the code word for race and anti-racism, social justice work. You know, it was all lumped into, oh, well, our school's doing equity work. But what does that mean? And I would love for parents to really start to question that well, what exactly do you mean by equity work? You're having your staff go through equity professional learning, but what are they actually learning about?

And if you don't hear “anti-racism,” speak up, say it. Say, I want my teachers to be anti-racist. I want my students to have an anti-racist teacher. I think we just need to get more empowered with the use of that word. It's still very scary for a lot of people, which I struggle with. Like we're anti-racist, you know, like…

Val: Pretty straightforward.

Andrew: We should be able to agree on that.

Brittany Brazzel: I just don't get it. But you know, get a little forceful, because district leadership oftentimes will gauge the politics within the community. If the community feels like they're going one way, they'll kind of side with the community, because the community holds the power. Parents hold the power.

Andrew: Especially White parents.

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. Especially White parents. So get a little bold.

Val: I think if you brought me to an open house and you said, hey, we're really looking at this anti-racist framework. Parents, love for you to start asking questions about it, looking into it, which one really stands out to you. How can we collaborate on ways to support this for our children together? That would make a huge difference. So I say be as transparent as possible. I can't think of anything in here that needs to be hidden. So, just take it in, bring the parent conferences like, hey, I read this really cool… Have you seen?

Andrew: Have you seen?

Val: Make your papers shuffle, you know, all of that.

Andrew: Can I ask you something Brittany, about what you just said about parents kind of showing up and demanding. I think there is also a tendency for the liberal White parent who just, like, read White Fragility for the first time to be like, oh, I've got all the answers and this is what the school needs to do. And kind of march in, particularly if we’re thinking about, you know, parents who are, you know, a small handful of White parents in an otherwise largely Black and Brown school. How do you think about kind of tempering that, to be supportive, without trying to dominate or take over the conversation, which is something that is not necessarily a White parents forte?

Brittany Brazzel: Yes. Well, I'm a firm believer and practitioner of stay in your lane philosophy. So make sure you know what your lane is. You don't want to overstep. And, like, get out and make some friends. Make some other friends with other parents. If our kids can go in the classroom and integrate, and, you know, have magical moments all day, then the parents, waiting to pick up, can do the same thing. And so from there, you can start to build those coalitions. And so then you don't go in there demanding. You go in with a group and then it doesn't seem so out of balance, if you will.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. The importance of community, of showing up and getting into community, and then figuring out how you advocate. But in the meantime, I do think there is a role even before you've built that community, when you see a teacher or a school leader trying some of this to just be like, “yo, I'm here for that. Keep up the good work. Thank you. I support that.”

Val: Yeah. That's it, that’s it.

Brittany Brazzel: Listen, teachers read their emails. It's a myth that we don't. We read them. We read every word. Send an email, like, “wow, I saw that, you know, little Johnny came home and was learning whatever.” Send that teacher a little one sentence message that says, “Really thank you for opening little Johnny's eyes to Frederick Douglass.” You know, I don't know, but send that thank you.

Val: Andrew, I always appreciate you reminding me how Whiteness might operate in these spaces. When I'm like, yeah, go do it. You're like, but wait, Val, wait, you actually...

Andrew: Slow down.

Val: You actually don’t want that.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean you do. And, like you said, like with critical consciousness, as soon as you start seeing it, you see it everywhere and you see it in your school. And you're like, I got to do something about this. But, you know, being one step ahead on the journey, there's still a long journey ahead. And so it was like, “alright, hang on, let me, like, come to understand things a little better.” And that, I think that's where that, to your point, Brittany, the community piece is so important. Because if you've made friends with 10 parents at pickup and they're all like, yeah, I'm kind of feeling some kind of way that my kid hasn't learned anything about Frederick Douglass. Then when all 10 of you show up and you're like, hey, we'd really like to learn about Frederick Douglass. It's really hard for the school to ignore that.

Brittany Brazzel: Oh, there will be a school-wide email out that night. These parents came in hot. I mean, so you want to talk about power and change and systems, it's right there. It is literally just hanging out at pickup.

Andrew: So just to kind of wrap up here, I think, I mean, the framework is amazing. It's so awesome that it is out there. That it is digestible, actionable, you don't have to have a degree in anything really to read it. It is perfectly understandable for even a parent like myself who doesn't really know anything about teaching.

It feels like if I was a teacher, I would be like, okay, I could start with one of those things. Like that doesn't feel overwhelming. But the other thing that I took away from reading the whole thing is, like, it is geared towards educators, it is about school leaders, but it really feels like advice for life. Like if you take teacher out and just put in…

Val: That makes us so happy.

Andrew: …human being. It's like you want, I want to recognize the humanity in all the people that I come across, I want to understand historical truths to be a better person. I think, you know, developing critical consciousness. Once you see it, you can't unsee it. Like that feels really important. Being able to name, race and racism where it shows up and work for just systems that all feels like human goals, you know?

And it speaks to me of the power. It's part of why Integrated Schools is focused on schools is like that work feels really hard to engage in, particularly in your neighborhood. If your neighborhood is mostly all other White folks or in, at the grocery store, you're like, hang on, how do I stop and think about all of the, you know, building up the skill set to do it, because I think it is a skillset that requires practice. It requires intentionality. Feels hard, but schools feel like such, this opportunity. Because we have a kind of contained environment where you actually do, we haven't ever done it, I think. But you could in fact, imagine a school system that was doing this every single day. And imagine what the kids who got that every day could be like when they were around to, you know, to kind of be in charge.

Am I missing something? Is this like actually life advice, hidden as advice for educators?

Val: For sure.

Brittany Brazzel: That’s our low key goal.

Val: Yeah. That's our high key goal. I'm feeling, I've been emotional all day, but I think I'm just feeling really grateful that you see promise in it as just a human. And I think, for me, this is really about, how do we reach our greatest human potential, as educators in schools, in the world? And so for you to be able to see yourself in this, even though it was designed specifically for educators. I think we really wanted to be thoughtful about making it something that everyone could plug into. And everyone could be proud to say that they are anti-racist and what that actually means. So I am super honored. Like that's the best thing you could have said about it. So thank you.

Brittany Brazzel: 100%.

Andrew: That's great. Do you want to shout out the other folks who worked on it?

Brittany Brazzel: Oh my gosh, the crew, as I call them. Yes. Okay.

Andrew: Listeners will recognize Sarah-SoonLing Blackburn, who was on the podcast as well.

Brittany Brazzel: Yes. And then myself and Val. We were there. You have Pam Ferrate. We had Josh Parker who helped us. And then Jackie Rodriguez-Vega, Chicago teacher. She was, “woo!” She brought the fire.

Val: Woo! Love me some Jackie.

Brittany Brazzel: I mean we had, we really did. We had the all star crew come together. And we all have different backgrounds. We all have different experiences. We were a diverse group of people in every way you could think. And it was just really cool to collaborate and have all of us kind of just brain dump this vision for anti-racist educators of the future. And it worked out. I mean, as you said, we created a document for human life, you know.

Val: That’s such a big deal.

Brittany Brazzel: Yes! It's huge.

Val: Such a big deal.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, thank you for doing it. Thank you to all of the people who worked on it, and for coming on and sharing, and for all you do, Brittany, every day and Val, obviously, for showing up here, but also for your professional work, because it’s important.

Brittany Brazzel: Yeah. Thank you. This was great.

Val: Yep. Awesome.

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Andrew: So Val, what did you think?

Val: Man. It was just really good to talk about our work and I'm just thankful to have had Brittany on here and for you to join in. It's just, it's been nice.

Andrew: Yeah, she is great. I love the Wisconsin in her and her passion. And she just like fully lives into her status as an anti-racist educator.

Val: Absolutely. And I think what is really powerful about Brittany's particular story is that she talks very honestly about her own journey being, what she would describe as, a late one. But then still feeling like she could contribute and add and make change. And I think that's really important for anybody to hear, wherever you are on your journey.

Andrew: Yeah. And the idea that you can hate school, you can feel like I didn't have the teacher that I needed. And then instead of saying, so school as an institution is out, say like, alright, I'm going to go back now. And I'm going to be the teacher that I wish that I had.

Val: And I think that also speaks to us not giving up on any child.

Andrew: Mmm.

Val: You know, Brittany talks honestly about that situation with her counselor and how essentially the counselor was like I don't see the path for you that would lead her to where she is today. And so I think it's really important for all of us to recognize the humanity of every single child that's in front of us. And to know that there's a future out there that we can't ever anticipate. And so we need to pour into them, as much as possible, to get them what they need. This is not hard. This is not hard.

Andrew: I don't know. As a non-educator, it sounds pretty hard to me.

Val: You know, what I think about a lot in our conversations is how much of the issues that we have today go back to that first principle. The fact that everyone's humanity and dignity are not affirmed. Because if they were, then the systems that we created for all kids would show that we value them in the same way.

And so I think one thing that parents in this Integrated Schools community, they do and can do in enrolling their kids in integrating public schools, is declaring that yeah every kid has value. And my kid has value and so do all of the other kids in this school. And yes, we might have fewer resources, but there's still richness here. And I think that's really important.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. I mean none of this stuff is simple. None of it fits on a bumper sticker. There's lots of nuance in all of it. But if there was some kind of, you know, underlying principle that seems to unite, at least the people who are involved in this movement, the people who show up to, you know, chapter meetings and book clubs and are part of the leadership team here. It is this, like, deep belief that all kids matter. That my kid is special and so are all kids, other kids. That my kid deserves love and so do all of their kids. And so, you know, if there is some kind of unifying thing and, I do think, right, like we talked about in the episode, if you get that right, so many other things flow from that.

Val: So many other things flow from that. Right. And I think it's really important for us to stay tuned in. One thing that I really appreciated from your comments is that it wasn't just a tool for educators. It was like a tool to be a better human and, you know, just replacing the word educator with human.

And that, that made me tear up a little bit because that's the goal. That is the goal. And so to be able to provide a resource document framework for anybody to pick up and say, I can do this on my anti-racist journey, felt like a huge amount.

Andrew: Yeah. It's a very powerful document. It's deceptively powerful. It like it, you know, it looks pretty simple. You're like, oh yeah, that all makes sense. And then you read it and you’re like, oh wow.

Val: Oh, wow. Yeah, the more you read it. I am still shocked at it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: I'm still shocked at how dope it is. So pick it up y'all. Pick it up. It's free. It's free.

Andrew: Go get it. That's right.

Val: But I want to know about your own teaching experience and maybe even your own children's school experience at this point. How have you seen some of what's in the framework show up?

Andrew: Yeah. I think, you know, I made this point in the episode, like, we think of teaching as static. That, you know, our kids’ experience is exactly the same as ours. And my kids' experiences is not at all. Even in the exact same school with, you know, not vastly different demographics. They are having such a different experience than I had.

I certainly don't remember any conversations in elementary school about race at all. I don't know if they were thinking about this. I don't know if they were trying to live out some of these principles on the sly, you know, without kind of naming them out loud, which feels like much more of what was happening oh, so many years ago.

Val: And I want to co-sign that because obviously we didn't create anti-racist education with this document, right? This is based on decades of teacher practice, learning from others, veteran teachers who have been doing this work, but didn't have, like, this exact language for it. You know, we really learned from others and the research about what works for kids.

Andrew: Yeah. My kids' experiences is so wholly different. They are getting that all the time. And I think the leader in their building, all the way down, it sort of trickles down to the teachers. There's a lot of intentionality in the building around anti-racism, which I feel very fortunate about.

Val: Yeah, I need to shout out my daughter's history teacher. So one day she jumps in the car and she's like… She's so excited about history class. She talks for 30 minutes straight and she ends with, and that's the impact of imperialism, right?

So I'm like, yes!

Andrew: 7th grade?

Val: Yeah, just want to shout out my daughter's history teacher for embracing those historical truths and, like, naming them and helping students develop their critical consciousness. Because now my daughter is seeing all of these connections to the world around her, based on the historical truth that she's learning in class. And I think that makes a huge difference.

So can I tell you, like, the best news that I got this week? That I saw this week? Did you see the recent CBS poll?

Andrew: Yes.

Val: Okay. For those of you who have not seen the CBS poll, the vast majority of people polled are against book bans.

Andrew: Like 80%.

Val: Yes!

Andrew: Across race. Across political persuasion.

Val: I know! So exciting. And then 84% of White people saw there was either a major problem or a minor problem with racism. And so, I think we're doing a good job. It felt like a victory to me. And it feels like an invitation to bring something like the framework into your school saying, hey, guess what? Most of us here agree that this is how we should treat our kids. So let's figure out how to make those system-wide.

Andrew: Yep. Did you, I don't want to, like, kill your buzz. But I had the same initial reaction to the racism question. And then I was like, I think that there's definitely some people in that, “yes, it's a problem,” who are talking about “reverse racism.” There's definitely some White folks who are like, racism is definitely a problem. All those Black people getting jobs that we’re supposed to have. All that reverse racism.

Val: Man. You always trying to just bring me down. I mean, if that's the case, then I'm sorry for those people. But even that gives us the opportunity to talk about racism, what it looks like, what it feels like, how it impacts all of us. I think it's still an open door…

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: …that we have to go through. And then I think just in having these conversations, in having the language, we'll figure it out, how to walk through that door and talk the same talk.

Andrew: And a good place to start is bring the framework with you.

Val: That's it. Super simple. It's really hard to, it's really hard to argue against, and it's really easy to defend what we're asking folks to do in that framework. And I think that is something that is key for parents who want to have the conversation. It's really hard to say, no, I don't want every child to have a sense of belonging in the school.

Andrew: Right.

Val: And if they say that, then please exit immediately and alert the authorities.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. And there's a way also, I think, that it is somehow simple, without losing the nuance or the complexity. Like it is straightforward. Like I said, it's hard to argue with anything. I think it also, if you're willing to read it, it quickly disabuses you of these, kind of, false notions of what, you know, culturally responsive learning is. ‘Cause you're like, oh, it's not affirm the dignity and humanity of only the Black kids in the classroom. It's affirm the dignity and humanity of everyone.

Val: Yep. Yep.

Andrew: That sounds pretty good.

Val: And in writing it, we really wanted to, and this was on purpose, this is intentional, to not center only White people. It was like, how can anyone, with any racial identity, come to this framework and really say, I have a place to plug in where I can be more anti-racist?

Andrew: Mmm.

Val: Because it's work for all of us.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. Well, it's great stuff, Val. It was so fun to get to hear you, deep in your field of expertise, sharing your professional work. It's another side of you that has been so nice to get to know as well.

Val: Oh, thank you. I'll be back in minivan mode next episode. So don't worry. Yeah, I'll be back.

Andrew: I will say we let Brittany off without solving racism.

Val: Ah, she tried.

Andrew: We're going to have to get somebody next time for…

Val: I definitely think our next guest has ideas about solving racism. I definitely know, I definitely know she does. So now y'all all have to listen because I think next episode is when we solve racism.

Andrew: That's the one. So hit that follow button. Give us a subscribe. If you want to help us keep making the podcast, head on over to our Patreon: patreon.com/integrated schools. Throw a little money our way each month to help cover the cost of making this podcast. We would be very grateful.

Val: Yes. Also share broadly, widely. Again, this is a free podcast. Like it doesn't get much better. Share with everyone. Share with your neighbors. Share with your friends. Share with your enemies. We want everybody to listen to this.

Andrew: That's right. That's right. Well, it's a pleasure to be in this with you, Val, as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time, dear friend.