S7E8 – Parenting for Racial Justice

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Val: And this is Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Parenting for Racial Justice. Val, it is a new year. We are back! How are you feeling? New year, new you?

Val: New year, new me! I'm close to being Dr. Val now. So I definitely expect one of those generated applause lines when that happens.

Andrew: Absolutely. Absolutely. We can take care of that.

Val: Yes!

Andrew: Yeah, I am. I am not feeling the new year, uh, “Go get ’em,” like, attitude. I feel like, oh gosh, here we are.

Val: Really why?

Andrew: Still in the, I don't know. It just feels like nothing feels new and, uh, rejuvenating to me.

Val: Hmm.

Andrew: What does feel exciting to me is this conversation. We're going to talk about parenting for racial justice. I feel like we sort of are always talking about parenting for racial justice, but specifically, this episode today, there's an organization in Brattleboro, Vermont called The Root Social Justice Center.

Um, and they were founded back in 2013 as sort of a hub for social justice organizing in Vermont, which I didn't know that there was a hub in Vermont for social justice.

Val: Nice. Vermont is on it.

Andrew: Yeah, they've got good stuff. And so back in the day, they had this program running that was called Parenting for Social Justice. It was like a series of workshops started by this woman, Angela Berkfield. She's a white woman, worked with a number of people of color as co-facilitators to do workshops around parenting for racial justice and parenting for economic justice, and gender justice, and disability justice, and had a really positive response.

And, they decided they were going to write a book about it. And so that was sort of this Parenting for Social Justice book.

Val: And, I think that there is a direct tie between our parenting and our school choices for our young people. Right? And so, as much support as you can get, as a parent and someone selecting schools, I say, seek it. Right? So there are workshops in your area. People you connect to through integrated schools. Uh, you need a community.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. Um, this is a parenting book. I have to admit I do not, in general, like parenting books. Um, I probably need them.

Val: You know what? I don't know how many parenting books that I've read and I try to be really careful about parenting advice. I try. So if I've given you parenting advice ever, and you have not asked for it, I'm sorry. Um, but I just, I have one, one piece of advice. Can I share with the people now?

Andrew: Please.

Val: When they are very little, from the beginning! You never tell them what you're going to do. Everything is a surprise. So that way -

Andrew: Yes!

Val: Sometimes a surprise can be Target, and sometimes a surprise can be Disney World. And everybody's happy. We're going to a surprise today. And then we pull up to McDonald's. Boom! Surprise!

Andrew: Surprise! Surprise, we're going to shovel the sidewalk. Surprise!

Val: That's it! That's it.

Andrew: I like that. But this book actually is, is nice because it is not a, sort of, “Here is the one thing that works.” But it is really, like, “Here are the conversations you should be having. Here's some things you should be thinking about. Here's some activities to get you started, thinking about and having conversations with your kids.” But not a, kind of, checklist “Here are the six steps to raising an anti-racist kid” because, um, that's, it's not like that. It's not that simple.

Val: People are asking for that checklist. Unfortunately, folks, it is not out there because we would have already shared the link!

Andrew: Right. We'd be done with this! Yeah. Podcasts would be out of business if we had the checklist.

Val: We try to end racism every episode, y’all, like, we totally would've shared it already.

Andrew: Yep. I think back to our episode with JPB Gerald called “Checklists and Merit Badges,” and I think he has an article that, that, you know, White people always want the “Give me the six steps and then let me get my merit badge that I can prove that I have a raised an anti-racist kid,” and this book does not do that. But it does, it does really have a lot of actionable steps. There's things that, you know, it asks you to do. You can engage with it in a really participatory way. If you can find a group of friends to engage in it with, it's really powerful in that way, but it is not, it's not simple.

Val: Right. Not at all. And I do highly suggest having a group of people to do this with. I think that's the only way we make it ‘cause it's too hard otherwise.

Andrew: Yeah. So sadly, last September, uh, Angela, the main author of this book, passed away from breast cancer. She was only 44, tragic loss to, to really the whole, uh, community there in Vermont. But I think much more widely, her impact has been felt.

But, Chrissy Colon Bradt is an Afro-Latina, married to a White man. She has two kids under six. She's thought a lot about what it means to, you know, support her kids in developing a positive racial and ethnic identity. And she co-wrote the chapter on parenting for racial justice in the book. She also serves on the board of The Root Social Justice Center in Vermont. And she was willing to come on the show and share about the book, and about Angela, and about, you know, how she thinks about this idea of parenting for racial justice.

Val: Let's listen in.

Andrew: Okay. Fair warning, I had a cold when we recorded this conversation.

Val: Yeah, you're a cough in the beginning when maybe I was like, what is happening?

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Chrissy Colon Bradt: I am Chrissy Colon Bradt. I'm a mom of two. I've got a seven, almost seven and almost two. They're just two weeks on the calendar birthdays apart, and I live currently in Connecticut.

Andrew: Awesome. Just before we get any further, I would love to just talk a little bit about Angela. Uh, she was the author of Parenting for Social Justice and she recently passed away from breast cancer, which was just such a loss. I'm sure, for all those who knew her personally. And, uh, just for the larger community of people committed to justice.

I wonder if you can tell us how you met her and, and what, what she meant to you.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. I've been reflecting on Angela a lot since she passed. And I met Angela, I actually can't place the moment. I feel like she floated into my life somehow. Probably I think definitely through The Root Racial Justice Center in Brattleboro, Vermont.

You know, I don't even know how we started. It's like this funny thing. I'm not even sure how we started leading workshops together! Just, I feel like one day she asked and I was in. And I, um, at the time had been, kind of, part of a small nonprofit startup. And we were working on, sort of, the intersection of social justice and contemplative work. And Angela wanted to bring some of that, kind of, compassion work and developing the skill of compassion to, to her work.

And I'll say that when she asked me to write this chapter, I still was like, “I'm not sure I have anything to lend. Other than that, like, I'm trying really hard and thinking about this. I don't know that I can, like, write anything down that would be meaningful to other people.” Um, I think what was amazing and is amazing about Angela and her spirit, I'll say the same of it, is that she sees something in people she brings people together. Um, she has the capacity, I think, to see beyond, kind of, your own frame of yourself. And I felt that in, in this text.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, she sounds like, like just such a force.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Right? Yeah, definitely a force.

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you coming on and sharing a bit of her spirit with us because you know, I never, I never knew her when she was alive. But reading up on her and getting to know her through her writing and through this book, it's been really a privilege. And so I appreciate you coming and sharing some of her with us.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Thank you. It's a pleasure, actually, to do so. I feel honored.

Andrew: Yeah. I want to talk about the book, but before we kind of jump into it, I'd love to learn a little bit more about you and your background. And, how you came to find yourself, uh, committed to racial justice, to social justice and working on these issues.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah! Part of it was my own experience, really growing up. I grew up in Newark, New Jersey, in a housing project. I had a mom who recognized from the beginning that education mattered. Um, and I'm the baby of five, and I'm the baby by a big chunk. So I think by the time I’d come around, she had sort of experienced schools and I think was a little more savvy.

She would comb through whatever opportunities were out there. One of those opportunities actually turned out to be an access program that she learned about in the newspaper. It was like its second year in the making. She's like, “You're going to get into this. You're going to write this essay. And I'm going to mail it and you're going to do it.” And I was like, “Okay,” because that's the kind of kid I was. And so I found myself at a boarding school.

I thought it would be like “The Facts of Life.” It's not. Was not, but I did. And that's why I wanted to go to boarding school. I just thought that show at least seems fun and that boarding school would be fun.

So I found myself, kind of this inner city kid, totally out of my element at a school in Newport, Rhode Island, that I chose because it was on a beach and I love beaches. Again, there wasn't a lot of thought here. The teenage me was like, “It's on a beach. It will be fun. It seems cool. And so I'm going to go.”

But it was, it was a shock to the system. I had never encountered wealth like that. Just, like, privilege like that? I didn't know anybody lived like that. Anybody had drivers or multiple homes.

Um, I mean, there were sports I'd never heard of. Like, I'd never seen lacrosse. What was that? You know, field hockey! I was like, what is this thing? So, it was all, it was this sort of shock in it. I found myself wondering “How can this exist?” And my whole life has been in a very different setting with a very different system. How can these two things simultaneously exist? And yet, I don't even know! And that there are whole groups of people who don't know. Um, no one I grew up with knew about anything like that or had experienced it.

Andrew: And I, and I would guess the kids that you were meeting, similarly, had no idea about your life experience.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Oh, no! I think they thought they did. I think they had pretty clear stereotypes that maybe wasn't really totally true.

And so I think it was really boarding school, and it was having an advisor who in the seventies had been like one of the first Black students at a boarding school. Um,

Andrew: Oh, wow.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: And that, that guidance that adult and his wife who sort of took all of us, kids of color. And I say “all of us” and it was probably 10, you know, across four grades, kind of under their wing. And, um, gave us a space that felt like home and a place to kind of ask questions.

I think until then I hadn't thought a lot about any of this, really. Other than I wrote about Malcolm X every year I could, as a kid. Like, every book report. My mom was like, “Are you going to pick someone else?” So there was something in me that was, like, fascinated by this and curious. But, um, I think that was the first, sort of, visceral experience of, there are different ways of being out here in the world, um, and different access and, and it felt unfair.

It felt, you know, I thought about friends I had or siblings and their school experiences, and it just didn't seem right. That in order to, in order to access that I had to leave.

Andrew: It's interesting to me. I mean, you, you write about that kind of experience and kind of actually finding yourself. And, it sounds like your advisor that they were sort of. like, at least one adult to kind of ground you and root you in that. But you, you left your home life. Your Afro-Latina, upbringing to go to this almost entirely White boarding school in Rhode Island. And that was where you were able to actually kind of find yourself.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. I think people are always amazed. And it wasn't perfect, right? And it, and, and painful at times. There've been many things I've had to sort of deal with-

Andrew: Oh, I'm sure.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: -as an adult. But, I think part of it is having educators there who've had those experiences. Who can name them. Who make you feel like, “Okay, I'm not alone.” And I have the right to take up space here? And that I can do something with this. I felt very viscerally, uh, for my advisor. I think he, he really, would not ever let me have the wool over my eyes. We had a lot of tough conversations and a lot of times where he would say to me things like, you know, “You've got to, you've got to try harder. You've got to be better. You've got to show up in ways that these other kids are never going to have to. And, and then you're going to get half the credit for it.”

Um, but he, I think, you know, for me, it really, like, forced me to have to find something! Some center in me to push through. But I'm, I'm eternally grateful.

Andrew: Yeah. Right. Because, it also gave you enough of, like, a sense of, of home. Or a sense of place to not just live in the outrage of that. Cause it would be very easy to just be like, “This is crap. This should not be the way of the world. I'm not participating. I'm outta here.”

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. And there were moments where I was like, “I am done.” But I also, you know, it was also the reminder of, like, this will, this will open things for you in different ways. And it did. I mean, I think that's part of my gratitude to the experiences that, at that age, I got to travel to places I would not have gotten to travel to. I got to meet people. And so I was fortunate to have educators who put in front of me texts and writers that I, you know, I don't know if I would have encountered at the same timeframe. And I'm grateful for that. Cause I, I also found refuge in those texts.

Andrew: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about like, kind of your own racial - I mean, I feel like so much of parenting for racial justice is about, kind of, instilling racial, racial identity. And it, and it sounds like your own racial identity, sort of, journey when you were quite young was also interesting.

I'm wondering if you'll talk about that?

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah! I'm happy to talk about that. So I, um, grew up in a very Puerto Rican household. All women. I've been reflecting a lot recently on my grandmother and just a home that was full of Spanish and culture. We visited Puerto Rico when we could afford to. I never felt anything other than Puerto Rican. Like, if you had asked me as a kid, that was the first word that came to mind.

But we, it wasn't something we talked about. That never really came up at home. Other than that, there were lots of comments about, like, um, “You are not Black. You are tan.” And there's so much colorism within Latinx families and communities. And certainly with mine is no exception. And I am the darkest of my five siblings. So it was a conversation that slipped in there in many ways about my hair. About all kinds of things.

And I, my, I remember so vividly this - my mom will deny it till this day, but I'm like “Mom, I remember this. Like, so clearly you can't deny it.” It's a memory I know happened.

Andrew: We don’t have fact checkers so we're going with your word on this. If she wants to come on and dispute it, she’s welcome!

Chrissy Colon Bradt: If Mom hears this, Mom, I love you. I've forgiven you. It's not your fault.

But, um, you know, I had this like one of those standardized tests in front of me, You know, it's like “Check how you identify” or whatever the language was. And I couldn't, I had no idea what to check. Like, it had been clear to me I was not Black. I didn't know that Puerto Rican fell under Hispanic. I must have been in, like, fifth or sixth grade.

So, you know, I didn't, I had no education about all of this yet. And I stared at that thing for what felt like the entire test. Like, I don't know what to-

Andrew: Your options were like Black, White, and Hispanic. Those were-

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. Right, right. Asian. And I was like, “I don't think that's me,” you know? But there was also, like, Pacific Islander. I'm like, “What is that?” You know.

Andrew: Right.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: I didn't even know what half the terms were. Uh, so I went home, finally, you know, after the test. And said to Mom, like, “What do I, what do I check?” And I'll remember this plain as day, cause I was like, “Well, that doesn't seem right.”

My mom was like, “Check the White box, cause you're just as good!”

Andrew: Mmm.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: And I understood that to mean, like, there was some measurement in this test that was testing whether I was good enough. And so I had to check White because that was the best option. Um, and I remember feeling, like, lost. Just like, that doesn't make any sense to me! And it, you know, my mom is not one to carry on the conversation. That was like, that was the end of the conver-

Andrew: That was the end.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: It's like, I answered-

Andrew: No followup, please! Check White, you're just as good, move on. Yeah.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: You're just as good. And now it's time to eat dinner. Um, and that stuck with me for it, because I knew it wasn't right. But I also knew, I didn't know who to talk to about it. I didn't know who to ask those questions of.

Andrew: Mmm.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: And it just, it was one of those things that sat with me for years. And it wasn't actually until high school until I was, you know, given some language. Until I could spend some time thinking about my identity, that I could make some sense of that comment, and where it came from, and what she meant. But also, like, be able to name who I was in ways that felt authentic and real to my experience.

And I'll say that like, uh, and I think this is the important part for, for parenting, is that it's a journey that continues, you know. I feel like I'm still exploring my racial identity, and what that means, and how I show up. And I've moved in a lot of different kinds of spaces. And in each time I think I'm, I'm pushed to questions sort of like, how do I identify and what does that, what does that mean to me? And what words are meaningful. And that's evolved over time. And I'm, I feel good about that. I feel that means I'm thinking about it.

Um, and I think that's important.

Andrew: Yeah. In hearing you, you talk about that in reading your story a little bit about, about your family. I'm just struck by the ways that White supremacy culture, kind of, influenced your own family. Even in a, like, predominantly Puerto Rican setting, your mom still knew that, like, to get you ahead in this country, to set you up for success, you had to lean on whatever proximity to Whiteness you could get to. “Lighter skin,” you know, “Check the box. You're you're, you're definitely not Black.” There's this way that White supremacy just kind of replicates itself, even outside of the context of White people.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: A hundred percent. And it's, I think I was blown away by that when I had my son. My husband's White. We've got to talk about it. But when I see it creep in from my family, you know, I remember when he was born, one of the, all the comments are always about the kid’s eyes.

“They have beautiful eyes!” Sure. But I remember my, my sister, I think it was. Someone said something about, like, “Oh, their eyes aren't brown!” Right? As if it was so great! Yes! Congrat- you did something good! You know? And I was like, yeah.

But there were just those sort of small comments about, you know, “nice hair!” Or all of these things that I'm always feeling like I have to kind of, like, finagle my way through. And maybe provide, both in a little bit of a, of an explanation to my son. But also a little bit of a, like, “Here's how we're trying to think about this. And here's why this is problematic or, or actually hurts.”

Andrew: Um, yeah. So your husband's White and now you have two kids. If you had to kind of look at them, what would you guess that their racial identity is.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Oh, this is great. So my son will, my son is, cause we've been talking about this since he was little, he has ideas. But, they're often read as White.

My, you know, my kids are very light-skinned. They’re, you know, what I would call “White passing.” The oldest one had super blonde hair until fairly recently. The little one is pretty blonde. And so, you know, it's, uh, it's, uh, I'd say a thing I'm aware of that they walk around with privilege.

Andrew: Right.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: I know from my kind of professional work, from my own experience on some level, that being multi-racial is, is a challenging identity to hold. It's an identity that brings on a lot of questions and a sense of, like, “I fit in nowhere,” right? “I'm not, I'm not Black enough. I'm not Asian enough. I'm not White enough. None of this works for me, and no one feels like they know who I am or where it feels like they can identify me and that feels hard too.” I've heard a lot of that from kids.

Andrew: Yeah, I think you wrote something about the racial identity development for people of color requires a strong and healthy sense of in-group belonging. And, like, finding that in-group is really hard.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah!

Andrew: So let's, let's talk about the book, Parenting for Social Justice. This was a project of Angela's that grew out of some workshops that she was running in Vermont for parents thinking about parenting for social justice and, and she brought on a bunch of co-authors for various different chapters.

And you co-authored the Parenting for Racial Justice chapter. What drew you to want to partake in the book and was the goal of the book?

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Angela drew me in. I, I rarely said no to Angela. I don't know if I've ever said no to Angela. When she asked, I was like, “I will be there.”

Andrew: She has passed away, and here you are on this podcast.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yes, exactly! So, you know, the racial justice piece, more than anything, is personal. And I feel like it's, it's the one that I felt like I could speak most clearly to? One that I felt, maybe, certainly not that I've arrived in any conclusion of a journey, but that I felt I'd spent the most time on my journey and could really speak to. And then I think a lot about with my children, and that I wanted to explore in that way. It is, kind of, central. I mean, we certainly talk about all of the ways that humans show up in our family, but that, that one for me feels particularly, um, resonant, because my kids are, are, are multi-racial.

Andrew: Yeah. And so the book, I mean, I appreciate it because it, you know, it's, it is ostensibly a guide to parenting. And what I appreciate about the book is that it is very much, like, “Here's the thing that worked for me. Here's something else that worked for somebody else and you have to find out what works for you. But here's some questions you can ask yourself to start thinking about bringing these conversations into your parenting.”

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. And I loved Angela's vision for that. She felt very strongly that it needed to be something that people could be active with. That they could be in practice with.

And I appreciate that. Cause this really, I think kind of gets at the root of what it means to parent for social justice, which is that you've got to really be thinking about yourself. That this isn't going to be successful if your idea is, like, “I will make sure my kid has all of this and I'm not going to at all deal.” Yeah, “This isn't about me” because fundamentally it is about us, as parents.

Andrew: Yeah, it is. It's, it's easy to, like, I even feel the draw of like, “Ugh, this is complicated, but I bet my kids can figure it out.”

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Right!

Andrew: “Let me just, like, let them. I'll set them up better and then everything will be fine, and I won't have to worry about it.” Yeah. Yup.

The book is, uh, I mean, maybe it's disappointing for some people. There's this, like, you know, the White desire for checklists and, like, “Tell me the six steps I have to do, and then I will just do it and I won't have to worry about it anymore.”

And this does not give you that. It gives you a lot of actionable things to do, and it is very interactive.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: It's not the “When the kid says X, you say Y and you will fix it.” It doesn't work that way. Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah. So let's talk about that, kind of, you know, parenting for racial justice. One of the first places that I appreciate the book starts is, sort of, that that it's, it's never too soon to start the conversation. That our kids are aware from six months old about differences in race. That it's there all the time.

And there's this sense, certainly among White folks of, like, “Well, I just don't want to put this burden on my kids yet. I want them to be innocent and live in their little innocent bubble for as long as possible.” And, and sort of right from the very beginning you guys say “That's not, we, you can't.”

Chrissy Colon Bradt: You can't! And the truth is the bubble isn't really innocent. I mean, you know, as a person who has worked in K through 12 schools, we have kids say things. Um, make choices on play in, in nursery! Right? At four! They're making choices about who they play with or who they won't play with, based on perceived, you know, racial backgrounds.

And so, they're not living in some innocent bubble. They're, they're making choices. They're, they're internalizing messages that we either intentionally pass on or, or unintentionally pass on. And so it is never too late.

I think, I, I think I tell this story in the book, but my little one, we started little. Like, about two, two and a half. We would look in the mirror and we would talk about like, what's the same? And what's different? And from the beginning, he was like, “Mommy's skin is different than mine,” you know? Our noses are the same. And we talked about like your, our hairs, and it just, like, he noticed it.

And out of that grew other conversations. And then, you know, I thought, one of the, my favorite moments is when we got to tell him that he was going to be a big brother. And his first question was like, “Will he have sandy skin, like mine? Or will he look different?” Um, and so we started reading, I think it's called, um, “My peanut butter, big brother,” or “Your peanut butter, big brother” or something, which is, uh, a book about an interracial couple. Similar, they're about to have a baby and the older kid is wondering, like, “Will this kid look like me or have hair like me?

Or will it be like grandmas?” Um, and “Which grandma,” you know? And so, we started to do that. And my son would love to go through the pictures and say, like, “He's going to have lips like this, and eyes like this,” you know. And it was lots of fun.

Andrew: I mean that, that's a beautiful, sort of like, simple starting place from very young ages. The kids notice it, they're going to see it anyway. You can start sort of normalizing talking about it. Like, oh, these things are the same, these things are different. Different doesn't mean bad. They're sort of, they're sort of all sorts of, uh, easy, easy ways in there.

One of the takeaways for me, at least of, of, kind of, my own racial identity development and journey, is the importance of being comfortable with discomfort. Of, like, not tying a bow on things. Of not having some solid answer, or whatever. And one thing that feels challenging is we want to engage in conversations with our kids that are age appropriate, some topics have to be simplified. And, we can't simplify down so far, you know, the kid wants to know, like, “Who's the good guy, who's the bad guy?” What, you know, like we can't simplify down that much.

How do you think about that, kind of like, tension between simplifying without getting rid of the nuance that's important?

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. You know, it is a tension and sometimes I don't get it right where I'm like, I just talked and he's long, he's, like, over there on some other thing, you know? I just told a whole story about, I remember this happened once and my husband was like, “He stopped listening, like, 10 minutes ago.” I was like, “Shoot!” I was going too! I had, I was like feeling my moment! I was like, oh yeah, you're done. So, you know, I think it is tricky.

I'm a big fan of the “coming back.” Um, the kind of layered conversation. And sometimes kids are amazing and they will bring it up, you know? So my first answer is always pretty simple, um, to, and to see if, like, how deep his interest is in this moment. Um, and I, I find that my son, it might be like six months later. I'm like, ooh! That's still playing in there! He'll bring, he'll ask a question. It comes.

So, you know, I think it's tricky. I don't think it's, I, I don't think we'll always get it right. But I think it's important to say something. When the moment is there, when the question comes up. Even when you see something. Sometimes we'll be watching something and I'll say, like, “Oh! I've noticed in this town, in this cartoon, everyone is White! That's so interesting to me. Like, that's just interesting.” And sometimes he will bite and sometimes he's like, “There's my mom again, on that soapbox.”

Andrew: Here she goes! Right.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Here she goes. Cause I, he started to do that a little bit. I'm like, Ooh, I gotta, I gotta get some savvier here.

But then sometimes he will bring it up at the oddest moments. And want to ask questions, “Why?” or “Where are all the Brown people? Why aren’t they in this town?”

Andrew: Yeah.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Um, and so that gives us an opportunity to revisit. So sometimes I think we get really excited and eager and we want to give the perfect answer. Tie it with the bow and, and be excited about where they're going to take it.

Um, and it just doesn't work that way. At least not with my kids! Maybe someone else’s kids.

Andrew: No, I. Yeah, I have the same experience all the time. And I think it's, you know, particularly if it's a, if it's a topic that feels hard, that feels challenging. You're like, “Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to do it. I'm going to build up all of my energy and I'm going to go for it. And I'm going to try, and I'm going to do all the things that I've learned, and I've been practicing and I'm ready and I'm gonna give it all!” And the kids, like, zoned out. And you're like,

“No! This was my, this was my monologue! I've been practicing this,” and they don't get it. And then you're like, “That's a failure,” But it's not actually a failure. If you have this idea, like, you're just, you plant a little seed, and maybe it's ready to revisit in two weeks. Maybe it's in three years, maybe it's in 15 years. But, like, planting those seeds is valuable in and of itself.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: And I think, you said it's practice, you know. Parents will often say, like, “I feel, I'm nervous to enter into these conversations with my kid.” And I think back to the self-work. I say like, “How many, have you entered these conversations with adults?” Like, part of that is practice, is practicing having the conversation, practicing, talking with another parent.

Like, I got asked this question, “What would you say?” I find that sometimes I'm like, “I said this, but now I'm wondering if I should have said,” or like, “Maybe, he didn't quite get-” and it gives me the opportunity to just to keep talking about it and to practice. Practice being in that conversation and in that place. And yeah, sometimes your best monologues go on deaf ears.

Andrew: Yeah. Right. There are some things that are actually hard for kids to grasp because of, of their age. But I think there's also a lot of things that I find that, like, seem like they're, that feel like a really big deal that are hard for adults, because so much of it is about, like, unlearning things. But that actually there are - I mean, there, and there are plenty of things that our kids have already learned, even when they're quite young, as we mentioned earlier - but there are lots of things that our kids are just learning for the first time that's actually much easier. Like, there are ways in which this, we, like, make this work harder than it needs to be.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. I found that when, the times where the things come up and I'm trying to get, it's bigger than the individual. That it's systemic. And I think I, I've been guilty at times of making that more complicated because I, that was a late learning for me, you know?

Andrew: Mmm. Right. Yeah, yeah. Right. The things that you think are going to be the hardest sometimes they're like, “Great, next. I got that, I've internalized. It makes perfect sense. What’s next?”

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Makes perfect sense.

Andrew: Oh, that was so much easier than I thought it was going to be!

Chrissy Colon Bradt: I love those! Cause when I think about some of the conversations I've had with my oldest one, I tell him every morning, you know, “Be kind, be curious and stick up for people!”

And there is an educator in their building, who is different than other educators. And I happened to do a lunch duty and, kind of, be a parent for a day with my son. And there was an interesting conversation at the table! You know? that was like, “So-and-so is kind of funny. And he walks like this and he talks like this.” And so I was able to kind of model, uh, “Ooh, I,” you know, “Why, why do you say that's funny?” And like, we, you know, it was a great conversation, ultimately. And we talked about, but afterwards I talked to my son about, when I say stick up for people, it's one of the ways, that's a small way you can do it. Is by asking questions and helping people see that the things that they are saying might be hurtful.

Um, but he was like, “Mama, I think they think it's funny, because they don't see people like him in cartoons.”

Andrew: Mmm.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: And I was like, that might be it! Right? Like, we don't see people like him. Right? And he's able to say, say like, oh, there's I, if you don't see them, then it's different. And it's weird.

Andrew: And he recognizes already that, like, that is, that's what pushes people towards, yeah. That's so interesting.

I mean, it speaks to me of the, the importance of, like, the environments that we put our kids in, um, to be able to see those things. To be able to recognize difference as normal. To be able to not be surrounded by all kids who are exactly the same as them.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. I'm a big believer in, like, in cultivating a sense of wonder about that, you know? Like, isn't it amazing and awesome! And don't you want, I want to know more about how other people live. That are different than, like, I just, I'm curious! Because, like, that's not how I do it! And so, let's cultivate a sense of, like, wonder and amazement for all of the ways that humans live. Because we are, we're everywhere and we, we live differently everywhere we go.

Andrew: I want to talk a little bit about, about our ancestors. This was such a powerful part of the chapter for me. And, and I think, you know, one of the things that White supremacy culture has cost White people is a connection to our ancestors.

And, it's something I struggle with a lot because on the one hand, to your sense of wonder, I think it's amazing to see these character traits in my daughters that I also saw in my grandfather. And to, like, see the ways that, kind of, the generations play out through us. And I want them to, you know, feel connected to that.

And you can't go too far in White ancestry without running into, like, really problematic people. And I don't want to, you know, deny that I don't wanna pretend that that's not true. And I don't want to push my kids away from their ancestry and leave them kind of disconnected, because I feel like that is like one of the ways that, that White supremacy perpetuates itself is. Your, you have, kind of, two branches of ancestry for your kids to tap into. Like, how do, how do you think about that? How do you think about, kind of, weighing those things?

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Thanks. That's a, this is a great question and, really interesting. And resonates only because we've had this funny story. My husband's cousin recently traveled to Barbados and traced their grandmother's family back to the 1600s. Um, and she sent me a text with a photo of the church, and I turned to him and I said, “Ah, you're a long-term colonialist, huh! Like, 1600s in Barbados. Uhh…”

Andrew: That's generations, for sure!

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. That's some sketchy existence! You know, we totally joked about it. Um, but then had a real serious conversation about, they were human. They experienced life. There's, there's story and history and learning to be had from those ancestors?

And I think about that a lot. Like, um, certainly as a, as a, as a White man, my husband is not as intimately tied to, um, his history. He has very little and, and granted, White supremacy has also severed my ties with ancestors,

Andrew: Right. Oh, right, yeah. Clearly.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Um, in different ways. So I think there's an opportunity, to not only connect back to, kind of, the, the traits and the tenacity and the, the learnings of our ancestors. But also to, to think about, kind of, “How will I be a better ancestor going forward?”

You know, kind of an opportunity to really think about what can I take away from this, this life of, of someone else and what might I want to add to that. Or, you know, I think there's also this beauty and the ability to have two, two sets of ancestors come together and, um, think about, kind of, what, what power lies in that and moving forward.

I mean, it's, I think it's a, it's a tricky one, but I do think it's really important, um, to continue to, to learn and, and to face and to grapple with a little bit.

Andrew: Yeah. Right. Then how do you, how do you make sure that seven generations from now, somebody is looking back at you and being like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. They, I mean, they were also problematic and, and yet they, like, tried and they kind of tried to move things forward.”

I mean, there is sort of, like, a theme throughout all of this, I think of the, of, as we were saying earlier, that's not a, it's not, it's not a task. It's not something you check off and that's complete. That, like, what I think about trying to really cultivate in my kids, this sense of wonder that you're talking about, is this curiosity, is this ability to recognize the systems when they see them. To see the ways that, that, you know, their privilege is playing out in their lives.

And then to be constantly curious about what they can do with that, and how they can do better. Because even if you, like, make a huge, a huge bunch of progress, and they come to some greater understanding, they're still living in this world where they're not seeing, you know, cartoons of people who look different from them. Where they're being fed all these messages. You have to be constantly undoing that, uh, as, as you go.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: And I think the greatest gift is, is that they can see it. If they can see it, and they can name it, then they can do something. Like, seeing it and naming it as power and of itself. And, you can think about what, what your, what role you want to play. That you have a role to play in making it better.

And, I believe that another world is possible and I believe that that world lives, lives in, in the future generations. I'm not, I'm not going to see it. Um, but, but I'm going to do my part to, to allow that my, my kids become part of it or can help generate the next version of that. Um, but that I've got to keep, I've got to keep at it so that they take away something. And I think the naming and the recognizing is the first step in that. Which I think comes back to, like, I've got to live something different, right?Again, I've got to own it.

Andrew: He has to have some example, yeah.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: I just hope he does it and talk to him about it. If I'm not, if I'm not living it, he will live what I live. He will recreate what I do.

Andrew: Right.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: For the most part.

Andrew: Yeah. You, you have this beautiful adaptation of touching the earth that's in the book and, and there's this line in there that sort of speaks to this. “I pour all this suffering on the earth and ask the earth to help me transform it into wisdom and compassion.” Um, and it sounds like that's sort of, there is, there has been suffering, there has been harm. There has been trauma, but we can actually hopefully turn that into something more beautiful.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Yeah. And I think that takes bravery, you know. I think, um, it's hard to turn towards the difficult. There's suffering still happening. Happens every day. And I think part of it is learning to turn towards that. Um, and building our own kind of ability to do that so that then we can transform it.

But I, I believe that if I'm not trying, if I'm not giving my all at doing that, then my kids won't be able to. And so, my hope is that I'm, I'm doing some of that modeling and I'm doing that work, to transform things and that they both will too.

Andrew: Well, I, you know, I think about the suffering and the loss of, of Angela and this beautiful book that has really been a gift. And so I thank you for channeling some of that grief and trauma into this beautiful conversation and really grateful for you coming on the show.

Chrissy Colon Bradt: Thanks for having me. I feel really honored to be able to, carry on her vision, um, and to, to share that with you. And it's been a really fun conversation and just a good opportunity to chat a little bit.

Um, and I'm super grateful for your, for you sharing, kind of your parenting journey. It's been really interesting and I'm excited to learn a little bit more about that, that, that journey as I continue on my own.

Andrew: Well, thank you so much.

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So Val, what did you think?

Val: Well, first I want to just acknowledge the lasting impact of Courtney and Angela in the space. Right? So even though they are not physically here with us, they, their work carries on, their legacy carries on. And it, I'm just really moved by that.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I can't help, but feel the, sort of, similarities between Angela and Courtney and just the, the kind of tragedy that that community went through. That the Integrated Schools community went through. And hopefully the beauty that is coming out of it on the other side.

Val: Thank you, Angela and Courtney.

Andrew: Yeah, for real. So what did you, what were you, what are you sitting with after that conversation?

Val: I'm sitting with a couple of things. One of the things that I wonder about is parents opening themselves up to having these really hard, hard conversations with their children.

And so, you know, a couple of times she mentioned just how her mother didn't necessarily have the language to support her, and thus she didn't have the language to kind of process some of these things, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And it just might've been difficult for her mother to even, you know, maybe she hadn't processed it, right? Because, we live in a reality where a lot of these conversations aren't happening at home. We're close to banning them in schools. Right? So fewer and fewer people are going to be able to talk fluently about these things. And so, the practice is really, really important. So I'm curious, what has been the hardest conversation that you've had, with your children around race or racism?

Andrew: That's a good question. I think, my mind sort of goes in two directions. One is, like, the what's been kind of the hardest, like, logistically? Or kind of from, like, a content, you know? Like, helping them understand the systemic nature of racism or kind of the, the ways that the structures are set up to reinforce, and just the mechanics of that? And helping them understand that it kind of feels tricky?

Val: Super complex, right? Yeah.

Andrew: And then the more emotionally difficult conversations. But, I don't know. I need to think about what those conversations actually were.

Val: I remember mine. And I think I remember mine because it was one of those that you don't see coming? Right?

So typically I have been very good at planning our conversations around these things, right?

But this happened. My husband and I, we were watching the news, uh, in 2017. And, I didn't realize my daughter was in the room. And they were showing, uh, video footage from Charlottesville. She was, um, seven. And so, she's standing there like behind us watching the TV and, um, she makes it known that she's there. And she’s crying. And she asked me two questions. She was like, “Why don't they like Brown people anymore?” And then “Can we move some place where they like Brown people?”

And, um. Those questions because those are questions that I didn't have answers for. So it, the answer really just was me holding her while she cried and me saying, I don't, I don't know. You know, I don't, I don't know the answer to these questions that you're, these really tough questions that you're asking.

And so, I think it's difficult for parents to, um, say “I don't know” to their kids? Especially around these very challenging topics. And so, opening yourself up to these hard conversations, um, I think is significant because those types of conversations, when you are deciding your school or when things are happening in school, like those are the conversations that you're going to want to have with your children, right?

Like, those are the things that you want them to feel comfortable coming and talking to you about. And, you know, is it easy to say, “Hi, five-year-old, this is where you're going to kindergarten, because guess what? The system's racist! I don't want you to be completely immeshed in White supremacy. So, we're going to go to this school and we're going to try to work it out. And yeah, it might not be the same level of funding, and you might not have the same experience as your friend who lives in the neighborhood, but we're sticking to our morals!” I mean, that might not be the conversation that you have with your five-year-old.

Um, I mean, I would’ve! But, it's alright. I understand. It's difficult. And yet if we don't open ourselves up to having those conversations to our children, what is the alternative?

Andrew: Right.

Val: The alternative is, like, what we heard from Chrissy. Hey, you're checking this. This is what we know. Don't ask any questions. I'm moving on with dinner.

Andrew: “Check the White box. You're just as good.” Move on.

Val: Um, it’s time to eat dinner. Right? Um, and so I think it's really on us as parents who care about the learning and the schooling of our children to, to really be open in that way.

Andrew: Yeah. There, there is, I mean, I feel this tendency myself. To be like, well, let me just set them up for success. Or, let me put them in an integrating school. Let me let them make friends with kids who don't look like them. And then my work is done, because that's much easier.

And, and you know, my oldest is not yet in middle school, but I would imagine that as they get into middle school and those, sort of, identity pieces start to become more and more important in their social settings. And, um, kids are starting to make more sense out of that, that it's even more important that they have some grounding. That they have some, you know, space to come and process those things.

Val: Absolutely.

Andrew: OK, I got one. I don't know if this was the hardest conversation for my kids, bu I had this impact on me. My oldest was, she was quite young, we had sort of been talking about civil rights. I think we'd read a book about Rosa Parks and, um. And you know, she was trying to wrap her mind around like, well, so why White people didn't want Black people to sit in the front of the bus, that doesn't make sense. And,

Val: It doesn't. It doesn't, young person. It does not.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. She just didn't, she didn't really get that. And, and she was, trying to, like, put some good and bad into understanding this. But basically like, “White people were bad. Black people didn't want White people to sit in the back. They just wanted everyone to be able to sit where they were. And like, isn't that the better position to have?” sort of was where she ended up.

And I was like, yes! This is why we're having these conversations. She's getting it. This is so amazing. And then she was quiet for a little bit and then she was like, “I don't, I don't know if I would want to sit in the back of the bus.” And then she was like, “And she got arrested? I was like, yeah. She's like, “I don't think I would want to get arrested.”

And I was like, “Well, you know, you don't have to, you don't have to worry about that. You're a kid, this is not, like, your job right now. You're five or six.” And she was like, “But she was riding the bus.” And I was like, what? And it became clear that she had no frame of reference for people other than kids riding buses. Because of the privileged existence that she had lived.

And all of a sudden, I was like, “Oh wow, we still have a lot of work to do.”

She's imagining Rosa Parks as a little kid.

Val: On a school bus. Yeah.

Andrew: On a school bus. Because I don't take public transportation to, to work. She didn't know anybody who took a bus to work at that point.

And all of a sudden was like, oh man. I feel like we're making all this great progress on race. And then there's this, like, whole other piece of, like, class and privilege that, that we've just, like, totally ignored!

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: And she thinks Rosa Parks is like an eight year old on the school bus who wouldn’t give up her seat.

Val: Yeah, that would be even, oh my God. That would be extra terrifying.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: What it made me think about is the idea of White innocence, right? So, I think a lot of these conversations don't happen because we're trying to protect White innocence.

And, just the idea that, you know, do my children not deserve to maintain some innocence? Right?

And I would argue silence about these issues is not protecting their innocence at all. Um.

Andrew: Yeah. I know that, right. Chrissy said the, right, like, the bubble isn't actually innocent.

Val: Right.

And I think. What would, I think, make me feel like a loss of innocence is if I learned later that my parents knew this and lied to me all the time. Or didn't trust me enough.

Andrew: Mmm. Right.

Val: To have these conversations, right? Because I think innocence is related to trust. And so, if we can't trust our parents to have these conversations with us, then that's when I'm like, why don't you tell me this? Like, you knew this!

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And you kept it from.

Andrew: And you kept it from me. And, right. Did you keep it from me because, because I couldn't handle it? Right? Like, you didn't trust me to be able to handle this.

Val: Right. And I think, you know, part of our job as parents, and this, this will carry over from school too. And obviously I would love for all of these conversations to happen in school in, uh, a loving, integrated community. Um,

Andrew: Yeah,

Val: But they won't always! Right? They, they don't always, um, and so. You know, all of us have to play whatever role we can, in making sure these conversations happen.

But one of the things I think that's important is supporting students with their identity development. And so what does that look like? And I think, you know, I. Honestly, I think why people have the hardest time. Because you all have been socialized to see yourselves as “normal” and not necessarily have a racial identity.

Right? Whereas, my entire life. Entire life, right? Knowing I'm Black, knowing what it means to be a Black American, that has been part of my conversation for my entire life. Right.

So I might have 40 plus years on someone who's listening to this podcast right now, in understanding what it means to have a racial identity and develop my racial identity.

And so I, I know that's difficult, but I do think it's not a bad idea to figure that out together, while you're talking to your children, right?

What does this mean for us? Um, and so you can start your journey when you have your young people. It's okay if you didn't start it right away, you know, you didn't start it earlier.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciated that. That piece of the conversation. That, you know, that they're a) like our kids are aware of it from the time they come out, basically. They are starting to pick up clues about it, and that you're never going to get there on behalf of your kids, unless you're doing the work yourself. That you have to lead by example in this.

Val: Yeah. I mean, my heart broke for her a little bit when she talked about, just in her own family, and how, because of her hair texture or whatever, you know, it was just often pointed out, in her kid's eye color, right? Um, and so being able to, to have that racial identity development, for yourself and for your children, I think is just important and, um, obviously complicated.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure.

Val: So I think, in-group belonging I think that's key,

Andrew: Yeah, that that's, that's the, you know, the kind of, uh, the path to racial identity development requires some kind of in-group belonging and sense of home.

Val: Right. And so, you know, growing up, I had that. Do you feel like you have that, in a way that you could articulate as a young person, or a now mature person?

Andrew: No, I mean. Only in as much as I kind of felt like everywhere it was my in-group. You know, and I feel like that is, like, of all the benefits that I feel like I gained from, my, you know, schooling experience of being one of a small handful of white kids. There's all sorts of good that came out of that.

And one of the things that I continue to struggle with now is my comfort level in situations where I'm in the minority is quite high. My ability to be aware of the impact of my arrival in those spaces is quite low.

Val: Mmm.

Andrew: So that's, like my, my learning space now, because everything felt like my in-group. Because I had White culture everywhere, and I had this experience and being in school where I was, where I, sort of, found community with a bunch of Black kids. And, and that always also felt comfortable.

And so, I think that learning now about the, the power of my arrival into Black spaces, and the ways that that changes Black spaces, has, has been a struggle.

Val: I would love to, like, be in an all Black space with you, but you have a little, like, earpiece. And I'm like, “Andrew, Andrew, that's not. Nope. Abort! Abort, Andrew! Oh my God. Do you see that front woman's eyes? Oh my gosh! Stop with that joke! Oh no, oh no!” I would love to do that!

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Um, that's, yeah! That's, that's super interesting. Because still as an adult, I am acutely aware of my impact in a room.

Andrew: Right. Yeah. I definitely am working on becoming more and more aware of it. It's “blessing and curse,” right? Because so much of the world has been opened up to me because I do feel comfortable in most environments, in conversation with people from all different backgrounds. I have been enriched by all those conversations that I've gotten to have.

That had I had sort of a, uh, you know, that, like, tight feeling of like, “Ooh, I'm kind of uncomfortable here,” people would not have opened up to me in the same way or been able to engage in the same way. And for a long time, I think I just thought about that as an, as, you know, sort of unquestioned good. And, and I think it's in recent years that I've really started to think more about the, that my arrival in those spaces is not without cost.

Val: Hmm. Well, I mean, I just met you last week. And now you know my whole life, so.

Andrew: A couple weeks ago.

Val: Uh, yeah! Just a handful.

Andrew: Can I tell you something that I, that I was sort of struck by? You know, thinking about schools, you know, her, her son saying, “I think that those kids think that that's weird because they don't see people like that in their cartoons.”

Val: Hmm,

Andrew: I was like, super powerful! This five-year-old has already recognized that representation matters.

And it makes me think about, yeah, just the importance of exposing my kids to a huge variety of people who live life in various different ways. And, that they can see all those people as fully human, in all of their differences.

Val: That fully human part, for sure. That requires so much intentionality. I know she talks about the planting of a seed. And, you know, just adding that, you know, what, what is watered grows, right? So you can plant the seed. But if you don't water it, ever. Like, it's an ongoing process, right?

Because there's so many messages coming at our young people. From school, from home, from TikTok.

Andrew: From teachers, from TV, from the radio, from-

Val: Everywhere! Right?

That, we have to make sure that we are not leaving our young people, to just figure it out on their own.

Andrew: Right. The importance of the environments we put them in is really big in that, and letting them, not just see those people, in the book that they read on occasion. Or in the, you know, one cartoon. The Doc McStuffins, or whatever. But also that and adding to that. Making relationships with kids. But, rightly to your point, it's not enough, contact is not enough. They can't, you can't just throw them in the school and hope for the best that they will, that they will find shared humanity, unless you're also having the conversations.

Val: Right! Right. Because you know who else had contact? A lot of contact? Enslavers and enslaved. That didn't help nobody!

Andrew: Right. Lots of proximity-

Val: Nobody. You know? So we can't assume just that being together is the answer because-

Andrew: Not being together is not the answer.

Val: Correct.

Andrew: Right. But just being together is not enough. Yeah. Yeah, and I guess that, you know, sort of the flip side of that, like what environments we put our kids in feels like an important piece of parenting for racial justice. But also, the conversation piece feels really important to how we and how our kids show up in those spaces.

So, you know, my kids are going to be much better able to participate in their school community in a way that's helpful, in a way that's productive, in a way that is actually, you know, leading towards beneficial contact, and not just contact for the sake of contact, if we are doing this parenting for racial justice work on the side.

If, if outside of school we're having conversations about it. We're talking about these things, and we're giving them the vocabulary to be able to talk about it. And helping them, you know, do that kind of recognizing piece. Helping them see things when, when they feel wrong.

Val: Yeah. But, I feel like if you are a White child who is critically conscious and you show up in a school with all Black and Brown kids, you really don't have to worry. Like the Black and Brown kids will have your back!

Cause we're looking for allies.

We're not, you know, we're looking for allies!

Andrew: Well, and one way to try to make as many allies you can is parenting for racial justice!

Val: Yeah. Andrew as always is a pleasure chatting with you! Um, and I know that we'll go out there and do a better job parenting immediately.

Andrew: That's right.

Val: As we were this close, like a pinch away from solving racism this episode.

Um, so we wanted to invite you to come back. Because I think next episode is the episode that we're going to do it. So not only come back, bring three friends, but we are encouraging listeners to continue to join us on this journey of growth.

Andrew: Yes. If you have enjoyed this, if you want to support this work, head on over to patreon.com/integrated schools. You can join. We've got monthly happy hours. We've got transcripts. We've got facilitation questions. Come and check that out. Or, don't take any of that, but just show us a little love to keep this podcast going. Keep it ad-free.

Val: That's right. And we should be winning awards. So if you recommend us for one, that would be dope!

Andrew: Spread the word. If you've been thinking about sending the podcast to somebody in your life, send it to them. If you've been thinking about posting about it on your mommy Facebook group, or sending it to your cousin in Topeka, go ahead and do that! 2022. We're looking for some serious growth here, so we'd appreciate your help.

Val: Thank you so much.

Andrew: And Val, it is always a pleasure to be in this with you as we try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time. I can't wait! Ooh, the next one's going to be so good!

Andrew: It's going to be good.

Val: Ohh!