S8E3 – Between We and They – Part 3 (Re-release)

Between We and They - 2022 Re-Release - Part 2

ANDREW: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I’m Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

COURTNEY: And I’m Courtney, a White mom from Los Angeles.

ANDREW: This is part 3 of our 5-part series, “Between We and They: A School Integration Story”. If you haven’t listened to the first two, go back and do that now. When we left Beth, it was October, and she was feeling pretty good about her decision to move her kids from the privileged school in her neighborhood to a poorly rated school miles away.

COURTNEY: She felt that it was the ‘right’ choice, but it was also bringing up a lot of feelings for her, and making her look at her own privilege, and the narratives she had told herself about good and bad schools.

ANDREW: She was also struggling to understand her feeling that this school wasn’t actually as bad as she expected. In fact, we didn’t even catch up with Beth until June of 2019, right after her daughters finished their first year at the new school.

COURTNEY: I tried to record with Beth throughout the spring but she would continually say that everything was fine and that there is nothing to report. She wasn’t consumed with worry or dread about how things were going. They were having a good - maybe unremarkable - year.

BETH: Yeah, I feel like the year has generally been for the most part uneventful. So I don't know. I just kind of wonder if it's a useful conversation for people to listen to.

ANDREW: And so we waited until the school year had come to a close, and then we asked Beth to reflect on how the year had been.

BETH: I mean, this year has been really an incredible, transformative year for me personally. I know this is about the girls, but for me personally, it's just… It's hard for me to even reach back a year to think about where I was...

COURTNEY: One place where Beth “was”, was feeling heartbroken about the PTA....

BETH: I've participated. I've gone to as many meetings as I can. I volunteer and bring stuff when I can. There aren't too many parents who are willing or able to help out. So if I could help out, like, you know, help blow up balloons for the last day of school like I'll do it, you know, that kind of thing? I really, really tried to keep a low profile at the school in general, but I also wanted to help out if the PTA wanted help.

ANDREW: At the beginning of the year, the PTA’s goal was to celebrate the 5th graders with a field trip to a water park… and, well, they did it.

BETH: We did. Yes, we did. The PTA raised the money. I helped organize it, you know, just made the phone calls and stuff. Um, yeah. I mean, I think that was one of the things that the PTA president wanted to do for the kids. And I appreciated that, you know, like she just really was. I mean, she didn't have a graduating 5th grader. She really wanted that for the kids so...

COURTNEY: It was a victory - a small victory, at least compared to the financial victories her old school racked up, but it was a victory nonetheless, and through it Beth came to think differently about what a “good” parent organization could be. Committed and caring parents who were working on behalf of the kids, and building relationships with each other in the process - that has value far beyond a balance sheet. And coming to see that value, helped Beth move past her pity and the disconnect it was causing.

BETH: I do feel more connected to the PTA in general, and the people there… It’s a, you know, really a fledgling organization and fledgling relationships. And so, yeah, but I'm part of that. …

ANDREW: Beth feels part of the PTA - as “fledgling”as it is - they are becoming her we. And what did that do to the pity she had felt?

BETH: But I did. I did feel pity. And I don't like to talk about my experiences at the new school with the people from the old school. But I did share a little bit about, you know, that our PTA doesn't have more than $30 right now. That was the beginning of the school year. And she gave me, this woman gave me this look of just profound pity, and I just saw it on her face, and I was so turned off, I thought, “Oh, that's what pity is.” It was really eye-opening to me. It was very disgusting. And I haven't felt pity since then.

You know, I think that her, the woman's expression on her face, it just impacted me so much. And I just saw, like, how really repulsive it felt to be on the receiving end of that. Like, wait a minute, like we, WE do not need your pity. You know, you want to donate money. Great, But don't do it out of pity. And I know it was just that moment as I was telling her that I was feeling pity. And so then to see it reflected back at me. I was just like, eww, is that what I look like? It did kind of feel like a spell was broken.

ANDREW: Being on the receiving end of this pity helped Beth see all of the implications of pity - the source of it, and the power it can hide.

BETH: I think it felt so repulsive to me because all the look conveyed to me was deficit. It was like she saw nothing else but bad, tragic, and deprived. That’s great, you think like “Oh, poor school.” But enough of that, “What are you gonna do about it?” Because your inaction and your pity is maintaining this vast discrepancy -- if we're just talking about PTA funds -- you are maintaining that with your pity and your inaction and your indifference. Is it? -- I mean, it really is indifference. I know you're gonna put on a face of pity, but really, it's just indifference.

The other big piece of this is: this is your system, this is our system that we created, that we set up to favor us, that works perfectly well for us. We designed it this way. We want it this way, and we want to keep it this way… So when you're looking at me with pity, I know that you're not seeing your piece in this, I know that you're not seeing how you are participating in this system that is so unjust.

COURTNEY: Coming to be a part of the new school community, the pity she felt became something else, something other than dismay at injustice and anger at disparities. It became, instead, caring about people - real, actual people. Knowing that there are structural systems that maintain advantage for some at the expense of others is one thing…. Being in community with those who are affected by it, that’s something else.

BETH: One of the last weeks of school. You know, I have a third grade mentee, so I'm in her classroom working with the classroom, and then I have lunch with her, and lately it’s been she wants me to just sit in the cafeteria with, you know, with her class. So I'm, you know, getting to know these kids more and more and more. And so I'm just, like the only adult at their table. So at this last lunch, three of these third graders told me that they're not coming back next year, and my heart just sank.

And whatever, they weren't able to really tell me like the details, where they're going and whatever. But at the end of the lunch, like, I really felt very heavy and really kind of heartbroken that I wasn't going to see these kids next year. So at the end of lunch, I just kind of called my mentee over, and I sat down, you know, so now she's a little bit taller than me, and I just like, really gave her this heartfelt goodbye and like, I really thought I was going to follow you through high school, and I am going to miss you and all this stuff and I felt like, like my tears coming. And she was super sweet, like this girl is like, she's got such a hard exterior and there have only been a few times when I've seen, like this tiny little girl self, like come out and I saw her in that moment, and she just gave me the biggest hug and she squeezed me and it was just so sweet.

And I just, you know, after that, like, I went home and cried. But this doesn't feel like pity. It feels like real loss. I mean, I don't want to overstate my role, but I feel like we had a relationship, you know, my mentee and I and some of these other kids, and it grew throughout the year. I really don’t want to sound like, you know, I want a cookie for having lunch with these kids. I can’t say if my presence was transformative or profound for them, and, but, it actually was for me. And now they may not be there next year, so I just feel really sad about that. Which is, I think, hopefully is different than pity. Which is what I was feeling...

COURTNEY: Pity is driven by platitudes, a detached sadness about someone else’s misfortunes that might prompt one to maybe donate money. Empathy, on the other hand, is something much more profound -- a shared experience, a giving of oneself, a deep emotional engagement with people, not a feeling about them.

ANDREW: This journey from pity to empathy was built on relationships - they weren’t always easy to create, and they continue to be a work in progress, but through that process Beth has started to think of the people at the new school -- the kids, the parents -- as a “we”. There’s power in knowing and caring about people as individuals…

[Music Interlude]

COURTNEY: Beth’s journey toward anti-racism, the learning she’s doing, has led her to a deeper understanding of all of the ways her privilege is unearned - all of the ways she has benefited from the structures in our society. She had expected this privileged part of her identity to be a focal point through the change in schools. But what she didn’t expect . . .

BETH: It brought my ethnic identity front and center every single day, in addition to my privilege, but my ethnic identity more. Because I started off this process as you know, a privileged person, which we are, and I say that we are privileged because I am half-White and you know, being Asian is different from being Black or brown in our society. I mean, it’s different from being White and privileged but the privilege still feels real. And I know it’s unearned...

So here I just kind of went with it like I was a privileged person, and I kind of put my identity, you know, to the side. But it just became a thing. It became a thing for me this year, and it just took me aback. I really wasn't expecting that. I mean, I think throughout my life, I've had periods in my life where I've where my ethnic identity and being mixed has been like, the thing. You know, it's been a big part of my consciousness and my reading and, you know, everything. So I just kind of thought I was done with that, but I'm not.

So I've just been struggling to find my place. You know, I don't really feel like I fit at the former elementary school and that parent crowd . And I don't really feel like I fit in the present elementary school and that crowd. And it's okay, um, I'm accustomed to being in this in between. So in some ways, I feel like that being accustomed to the in-betweenness, has made this process so much easier than I think somebody who's monoracial. There's just a familiarity there, you know, like a familiarity with the in-betweenness with the discomfort, it's almost like comfort in that discomfort, you know, like, oh, I've been here before and I know this.

COURTNEY: For an integrating parent -- and especially those who have been mostly around people who are “just like us” -- integrating can feel really discombobulating, awkward, disquieting. Here, though, Beth sees her mixed race experience as an asset -- her lifelong sense of always being ‘in between’ has given her practice in being uncomfortable, and has made this experience easier. But easier isn’t the same as easy.

BETH: Yeah, I just feel like I'm now. I'm constantly thinking about my ethnicity. And how do I identify again? You know, am I White? Do people read me as White?. It's just kind of throwing me into this, um, place. And it can be kind of lonely. It's also been kind of isolating. I feel like I've lost friends and I haven't acquired friends. So I feel like I'm very, I feel very isolated.

There's also something missing, which is sort of like this personal connection, which I don't, you know, that takes time. But all this to say, like, this kind of in-between space, you know, has also been very lonely. And I'm okay with it. I think it takes time. I think it would take time, and it did take time in my own neighborhood school.

ANDREW: Maybe making connections at her new school will take even more time, but for now, she is in an “in between space” - not fully fitting into her new school - at least not yet, but feeling further and further removed from her old school community. And while she expected her privilege to create some distance in her new school, she is surprised by the way her racial identity created distance with friends and neighbors from the old one.

BETH: I've come to the conclusion that the people around me in my neighborhood, either they never have or no longer see me as White. I mean, I live in their neighborhood, so they must see me as privileged like them. But I think that they don't see me as White. I guess I kind of hoped that my decision would open up conversations among my friends at the former school. And I think that my decision really shut down any potential for conversation around this. Maybe that's not the right way to say it, but I just feel like I've just experienced a deafening silence around this. So and I honestly don't know what to make of it.

So, I was kind of hoping in the beginning that people would see me like, like them. I'm very much like them, um, because, really, I am in many, many ways. And so I just kind of thought, like, through this decision and through my, you know, my research and my exploration, they might be curious and just want to hear about it. But I was wrong. I was very wrong.

I'm guessing that me being mixed might be a way that people can ‘other’ me, and therefore like “Oh, I don't have to worry about what she's doing because..” You know, I can’t really articulate it, but I just feel like my half-Asianness is a way in which I can be cast out, set aside and othered. You know, like I'm not with them anymore. I'm kind of on the other team.

That has been part of my process as well… just kind of experiencing and handling the silence around my decision. What I struggle with is like, why do I feel so hurt then? Why do I feel so -- this is a little bit strong -- but abandoned and dropped. You know, like why do I feel like shocked? Like, how can you turn away from me?

The reason why I feel so hurt by the silence is because it feels like they're shunning me because of my identity. And I know that sounds a little crazy, but -- how do I articulate it?-- it just feels like there's a… the shunning feels not just because I made a decision that they don't like, it feels a little bit like because we're not White. Because my family is not White, that’s why they’re going to shut me out. You know, I will never know that because no one would ever admit to that. But I just wonder...

COURTNEY: Beth hadn’t really expected her friends to join her in changing schools, but also wasn’t expecting that teams had to be picked and that her choice would put her on another one. Using silence, she feels like her friends and neighbors are protecting their privilege by ignoring its existence. While she feels the sting of being “dropped” and the distance created by the “deafening silence,” she holds out hope that maybe she is planting seeds that will just take time to germinate. In the meantime, she’s finding herself wanting that distance, too.

BETH:. It is somewhat mutual. I certainly have stepped out. I have different values and a different focus right now. So it's been a little bit sad and still I say that and then I can't help but say that I, you know, even running into people this summer… a couple of mothers I got into a conversation with them. One of them I felt like I was close to at one point, and the conversation just centered around middle school. Now my daughter's going into fifth grade; she needs to start thinking about middle school and applying to magnet programs. You know, which I kind of fundamentally disagree with. But the conversation was just focused so much on the magnet programs and this application and that application... And then she turns to me like where, where is your daughter gonna go? I said, I don't know. And that was it, like, I really don't, I can't engage in that conversation. I can't engage in the minutiae of, like, applications and it feels so meaningless to me. So it's this hyper focus on my own kid. I just can't do it and I can't, I kind of have no patience for it.

ANDREW: These conversations focused on the minutiae, the details and ways to get more things for their kids without focusing on the things that Beth thinks are really important. But talking about these things with her neighbors is difficult -- not only for Beth, who is trying to understand the history and the impacts of race in America -- but also for her neighbors who seem to be ignoring it ...

BETH: I think that there's a real inadequacy when it comes to talking about race. That's just kinda across the board. I don't want to get on my high horse about that. I am learning every single day and I'm trying, you know, I'm trying to be better about the conversation around race and ethnicity and class. But I kind of feel like the people around me in my neighborhood, in the former school community, they're very invested in maintaining what they have.

And I think that my decision in some strange way maybe threatens that. I represent sort of a crack in their bubble and I'm out. You know, now that I'm out, they gotta quickly repair the crack, you know, so that I could be on the other side and they can maintain their, you know, safe, comfortable bubble. And it's, you know, I use that word deliberately because I feel like I've heard parents around me talk about the bubble that they really like.

COURTNEY: Calling out racism and pointing out the structures that support it is socially dangerous work. There is often a social cost to challenging the systems that advantage the people with whom we are talking … Beth hears the “deafening silence” as a way that her neighbors can ignore the “crack” that she has put in their “bubble”. But also, Beth feels that being half-Asian gives the neighbors a simpler way to ignore it, a way to dismiss it, discount it.

ANDREW: As isolating as it feels to be on the outside with her neighbors, and to not YET feel a part of the new school community, Beth is also finding something valuable in the transition. Lonely as it may be, there are also aspects to this that feel freeing. And, once again, Beth is surprised.

BETH: Well, it is liberating to just be in an environment that doesn't feel so stifling. And the reason why it feels stifling is because it just feels like there’s one way to be. And that is, the White normed, upper middle class way of being a parent, and I'm not that kind of parent. And so, yeah, that feels very significant to me. So it does, that feels very liberating.

But also, I mean, it's also part of, you know, part of the school culture. Um, you know, music is a big part of the present school culture. You walk in and there's music playing, like loud music playing in the lobby. And that's how the principal wants it to be, like there's just music all the time and the kids perform, and there’s a step team. I mean, it's so small, but it feels significant. There's just so many, different ways to be so it does feel liberating.

COURTNEY: The former school would never have loud music playing in the hallway. The new school is not abuzz with parent volunteers and fundraising pressures. But it is more than just swapping one school culture for another. It’s also parenting itself.

BETH: I just honestly had no idea how much of a burden it was for me personally to be at the former school -- it just didn't feel right. And it was a feeling that I couldn't really articulate beyond I'm not a helicopter parent like most other parents here. And I don't want to be volunteering at the school for every darn event or be making cute little cupcakes for this event or that event. You know, they're silly examples, but it represented the culture of the school and the culture of the parenting style, you know, this kind of Pinterest parenting style at the school. And I know it's not unique to that school. I just had no idea how much of a burden it felt to me. Like, that's not the way I do it. It's just not the way I do. And I don't want my girls to think like I'm gonna be at their beck and call and in service to them all the time. I had no idea how much of a burden it was until I left it.

And now this past year, on the two occasions that we went back to the former school for their events, I got so anxious. The second time we went, you know, I'm kind of stomping around like I just don't want to go. And this is the last time we're going to this event. I'm very anxious about being around these parents again, Like, are they gonna talk to me about, like, the weather? Because I don't want to talk about that, you know. I'd rather talk about real stuff, you know? So just letting that go. It's just so liberating. And I'm living the way like... It just aligns with the way I want to parent.

And I kind of hoped that, like, this would be good. I really didn't know how great it was going to be, but I was just really kind of crossing my fingers, and I'm not a religious person, but I was, you know, really, It was really kind of a leap of faith.

ANDREW: Beth grew to appreciate the ways in which her new school provided the freedom to parent how she felt was best, to let go of the competition and the pressure of the old school - that there were many ways to parent, rather than just one. This freedom gave her the space to focus more on being anti-racist, and through that, she found even more liberation.

BETH: It's hard for me to even articulate the significance of this. But this process has been SO profound for me. And when I started this whole antiracist process, deconstruction, whatever you want to call it, it felt like so scary and really heavy. And a year into it, because I feel like I've really been actively, like trying to be antiracist like, really trying. I'm not saying I'm succeeding, but I'm actively trying every single day. And, you know, a year into it, I feel like there's something very liberating about this. Like I no longer feel so heavy with, like, “My God, did I just say, did I just think something that's so deeply racist?” It's like I do, I do. I have those thoughts and like, Oh, wait a minute, this is why I have it like, this is what it means. This is how it manifests like, this is what it looks like. I can pick it apart, and in picking it apart, I sort of remove it from me and I look at it, I hold it, it's still mine. And then through the deconstruction, through the analysis, like, it's liberating you know? Like it's still it's still part of me, I'm still holding it, but it's, there's something liberating about it cause it's not like me.

I don't know. It's a little bit hard for me to explain, but I just feel like I know it feels very stifling and heavy and oh, my God, very anxiety provoking, but let it be for a little bit, and I hope through the process, like, it can be very expanding and almost liberating.

COURTNEY: While she has studied and read and learned -- and took a family trip to bear witness at the Legacy Museum and Whitney Plantation, Beth feels like the decision to change schools was crucial, a necessary part of her journey toward antiracism.

BETH: I don't know how one could be in that process and thinking about, you know, acting in a way that's antiracist and still be in that monoracial, privileged community. It's very... it's a sliver of life, a sliver of society. And I don’t know how you could do that.

COURTNEY: While she still lives in the same house, in the same largely White, privileged neighborhood, Beth’s experiences across town are redefining where and how she belongs. A growing, deepening distance from her neighbors and a slow building of trust and relationships in her kids’ new school is changing how she thinks about “they” and “we.” And this change is evident not only in her ability to move from pity to empathy, but also how she feels about her own progress toward antiracism.

ANDREW: Beth knew that she wanted -- maybe even needed -- her family out of the bubble and the constrictions of those narrow ways of being And by trying to first do no harm, trying to listen deeply and participate humbly, trying to work toward antiracism -- Beth now has the space to find perspective… and maybe even liberation.

COURTNEY: But, school is for the kids, after all, so join us next time, when we learn about how the year went for Beth’s daughters. From academics to playdates to behavior issues - the girls have also gone through a major transition and become a part of a new school community. We’ll hear from them directly about how it went.

ANDREW: Music in this episode is from Blue Dot Sessions. If you’re enjoying this series, please share it with your friends, leave us a rating or review (it really does help people find the podcast!) and support this all-volunteer effort by donating at integratedschools.org.

COURTNEY: Thanks to Beth for sharing her journey. We are grateful to be in this with you all as we try to know better and do better….