S12E3 – Raising Antiracist Kids

S12E3 - Raising Antiracist Kids

Andrew:Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I’m Andrew, a White dad from Denver, and this is Raising Antiracist Kids. We’ve got a special treat for you today. A few weeks ago, Val and I were invited to be guests on another podcast that we are fans of called The Raising Antiracist Kids Podcast.

It’s hosted by an interracial couple - Tabitha and Adam - and I actually connected with Tabitha back in 2020. She reached out to Integrated Schools to talk about pandemic pods for an article she was writing for a column she was writing at Romper at the time. I’ve followed her work ever since. I was thrilled when she and Adam launched their Substack - Raising Antiracist Kids - and then their podcast by the same name. So, when they invited Val and I on to talk about building antiracist school communities, we jumped at the opportunity to be on the other side of the mic, so to speak.

So, we’re going to share that episode with you today. We encourage you to check out their Substack and their show which is full of great resources for parents who want to prioritize antiracism in their parenting. There will be links in the show notes. Val and I had a great time being guests on their podcast. So, if there are other podcasts you listen to where we would be good guests - let us know! Send us an email: podcast@integratedschools.org. About that or anything else on your mind, let us know what you think of this conversation with Tabitha and Adam. We’ll be back in two weeks with another new episode.

Ok - here is the Raising Antiracist Kids podcast

[THEME MUSIC]

Tabitha: Hi, this is Tabitha St. Bernard Jacobs.

Adam: Wait, are we doing full names now?

Tabitha: Sure.

Adam: Hi Tabitha, Adam.

Tabitha: And this is the Raising Antiracist Kids Podcast.

Adam: Um, we are really excited you're here.

Tabitha: Let's get into it, shall we?

Adam: Welcome to Raising Anti-Racist Kids Podcast with Tabatha and Adam.

Tabitha: Yes. The topic of today's podcast episode is Parents as Partners, Building Antiracist School Communities. And today we're gonna talk about what's happening in this country, the context with which we're having conversation. And then, we're gonna talk about how parents can be partners to teachers, and admin, and kids, and so forth as we aim to really build an antiracist community together.

Adam: And, um, we are very excited to have our very first guests. Andrew Lefkowits and Dr. Val Brown are cohosts of the Integrated Schools Podcast. An award-winning podcast, which is a part of their work to prepare families with racial or economic privilege to commit to integrating their children, driving new narratives about education, and advocating for justice in our public schools. Integrated Schools now has 43 local chapters around the country, and their podcast won a Signal award and was nominated for two Ambies.

Dr. Val Brown: Nice.

Adam: So welcome, welcome, welcome.

Dr. Val Brown: I'm just honored that you all think we are cool enough to share this space with you. I'm not even kidding.

Tabitha: Oh, you are super cool!

Adam: As we have heard you do on your own podcast, we're gonna start by asking you to share a little bit about yourselves. Andrew, we're gonna start with you.

So, what led you to launch Integrated Schools podcast?

Andrew: Yeah, I grew up in Denver. I moved away and then moved back when my oldest kid, who's now 14 was, was four, about 10 years ago. Um, looking at schools was like, “Okay, there's a school I can buy a house. It's a quote unquote, good school. It's a school that my sister actually went to.” When I was growing up, it was a very integrated, balanced neighborhood school.

And I was like, great. I don't know anything about schools. But it seems like other people say, this is a good school. This is what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to buy a house in the best school I can. That's what being a good parent is about. Great. My work here is done.

And then I got back and, and started looking a little more deeply at the school and started thinking back on my own elementary school experience. And my own elementary school is about a mile or so from where we moved. And when I was growing up and also when I moved back, was almost entirely Black and Brown kids, was largely low income students. And that experience had a huge impact on me, on kind of my view of the world, on how I relate with other people on the things that I think are important. And I thought, like, “This good school that I'm getting must be giving my kids that kind of experience.”

And then, I started looking a little deeper. I was like, oh, actually this school that we paid, you know, I don't know how much more money for our house to be able to have the privilege of going to, is not gonna give my kids any of that stuff. It was at this point a 85% White school, uh, you know, 80% economically advantaged school.

And didn't seem like it was gonna actually give my kids the, the things that were so valuable to me about my elementary school experience. And so, I was just sort of struck by this, like, tension, like why are the messages that I'm getting about what it means to be a good parent in conflict with what I think is important, and the messages that I'm getting about being a good citizen, about caring about the world, about, you know, being a progressive minded person who thinks that racial justice is important, these things feel like they're in conflict.

And I was curious if anybody else was feeling that same tension and sort of, you know, hopped on the internet to try to find other people who might be and came across Integrated Schools. Um, the organization was started in 2015 by a woman named Courtney Mykytyn.

And she was also sort of grappling with this question of like, “How, how do I reconcile these two different messages?” And, I ended up connecting with her, on a Zoom call and then met her in person. And, uh, at the time she was just having lots and lots of one-on-one conversations. And she was like, “I can't have one-on-one conversation with every White parent in the country.”

So, um, I was like, “Oh, well what have we recorded some of those and put them out as a podcast?” And so, in November of 2018, we launched the Integrated Schools Podcast. Really, it's a place to just sort of grapple with those things, to have those conversations, to see if anybody else was curious about those same things.

And, um, tragically Courtney was, was struck by a car and killed, at the very end of 2019, which was a, a real tragic loss to the organization, but there were enough of us who pulled together to keep the organization going in the wake of that. And then, a little more than a year and a half later we invited Val to join as the co-host.

Adam: So,

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

Adam: Obviously that's, that's a good transition to you, Val. What led you to it?

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah. So, during that same window of time in 2016, I founded an organization online called #ClearTheAir, and it was for educators and people who loved education to talk about the intersections of race, racism, and education. And to just be real honest about what we were seeing in schools, how we should show up as educators. And built a, a, a pretty significant following in that work. And, uh, one of my colleagues at the time said, “Hey, there's this organization, Integrated Schools, who's working with parents. Maybe there's some intersection there.” And so I actually do what all people do to make deals these days. I slid into the DMs. [everyone chuckles] and I said, I said, you know, let's figure out an opportunity to talk.

And I think it was about a month before Courtney died. And so, some time passed. And Anna reached out and said, “Hey, we would love to still figure out how to connect.” And honestly, one of my questions and pushes for the Integrated Schools team was that I saw that the title of it was “Integrated Schools,” but it was talking only to White parents. And I, I wondered like, is there a space for me here? Like, can we really talk about what this means? And if everyone has a seat at the table. Um, I was very, very, very busy, but Andrew ran me down over and over, sent lots of emails. [Laughter] Just kidding. I was his second choice. I just wanna put that on record. [Laughter]

Adam: Andrew, it’s out there now!

Dr. Val Brown: That's right.

Andrew: That’s technically true.

Dr. Val Brown: I was his second choice.

Andrew: It was the right choice, though! It was the right choice.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and once we got to the point where we were talking about joining the podcast, I, I saw it as a real opportunity for us to model what we wanted the conversations to be like around the country. And to show people that we could, we could have these nuanced conversations about things that, you know, we're both grappling with, um, from our perspectives and our identities and our, our places in the country.

And, and figure out how to, how to do good in the process.

Tabitha: Thank you for that. So, Val, one of the things you, one of the questions you asked yourself and asked Andrew and the team was really is there a place for you, is there a place for Black parents within this movement, within this community?

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

Tabitha: How do you feel about it now? How is it landing for you?

Dr. Val Brown: Oh, that's such a good question! So, yes, I, I, I certainly feel like there's a, a place for us in the movement. You know, sometimes Andrew and I will get into conversations where we're like, “Well, I, I understand why Black people don't wanna do that!” [Val laughs] Right? You know? I get it. And recognizing if we are going to figure out how to win, it has to be together. Like, that just has to be what we all sign up for. And so, I do think it's very easy, like, in a homogenous racial group, to feel like you're really doing the work, but you don't know how well you're doing the work until you try to do it interracially, right?

You’re like, “Okay, I'm down for the cause, I'm ready to do this!” And then someone of difference is sitting across from me. And you realize that what intellectually you think is working, you haven't figured out how to align that with your values, with your actions, with your words, in the same way that you're able to intellectualize it.

I'll speak for all Black people, which I do occasionally. [Everyone chuckles] Um, I think if we don't take the seat at the table, then we won't have our perspectives heard.

We won't have our needs addressed. That it will continue to be a conversation about us, around us, and, and not include us. And I think it's really important if we are, if we are all one in this integrated movement, we all have to be at the table to make it work.

Tabitha: And create it. Yeah.

Adam: That really, yeah, definitely made a lot of sense.

Tabitha: It's also a conversation that we have, 'cause we do anti-racist parenting work, and we notice that lots of the people who come to our workshops and trainings and so forth tend to be, uh, mostly White and multiracial. And people have asked questions about if there's space in the antiracist parenting space for Black folks and “Is there lessons for us to learn?”

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Tabitha: And the answer that I, that I always say is yes, because I think bias can exist wherever you land. And I think we all have things to learn from being in multiracial spaces and we all can teach our kids really significant things from them being in multiracial spaces as well.

Dr. Val Brown: Absolutely, absolutely.

Adam: What I heard is that you kind of started off as like, were like, “I don't know if I'm gonna do Integrated Schools for very long.” And here we are. [Val chuckles] However many seasons, you know.

Dr. Val Brown: This man won't let me quit! I told him.

Andrew: I ask you nicely to come back.

Dr. Val Brown:Yes.

Tabitha: But I think you both also do really incredible work together. It's something that's needed within the podcasting space, within any conversation about, about, um, antiracism. So I think it's something that's, like, deeply relevant, especially in these times when–

Dr. Val Brown:Yeah.

Tabitha: –parents are trying to figure out how can we, as schools face attacks on DEI, as you know, book bans are happening. It puts more on parents to have to figure these things out.

Dr. Val Brown: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Andrew: I think that like, the power of modeling, you know, like, like, like Val said, you can do it in your head all you want. You can read all the books that you want, you can study all you want. You can get an A+ in, you know, your anti-racism study course.

But, like, it doesn't mean as much until you actually try to put it in practice, until you actually sit down and have a conversation. And so the, the places where into a conversation with Val, not not thinking twice about in alignment somewhere, and then all of a sudden it's, like, “Oh wait, like, now I need to sort of dig a little deeper. Now I need to explore a little more.” Like, that's, that's the gift to me of getting to be in conversation with Val every episode. But I think hopefully one of the things that people take from listening to the episodes is that we can do this and we don't have to necessarily agree every time. We can step in, in wrong places.

I mean, Val's second episode on the podcast–

Dr. Val Brown: I was gonna say! Oh, that's what, that was the example I was gonna use.

Andrew: –went hard, of the conversations we were reflecting on and, and something that that, that one of the parents from the organization said that sort of struck her wrong, but we just went, went right after it and sort of–

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –talked about it. And that, that,

Adam: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: The ability to do that, and come out of the other side, you know, with a closer relationship, with having more understanding, there, there's so many places where I think people get scared and they don't want to talk. Or they don't wanna say the wrong thing. Or they don't wanna, you know, offend somebody.

And so, we just, like, retreat to reading another book by Ibram X Kendi and like, that's good. You should read those books.

And that's not actually changing the world. You know, like, it's, it's going out and being in relationship with each other. Like Val says, we only win if we win together. So.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

And, and that, and that example of, of that second episode, you know, I was nervous and I'm sure Andrew, you were nervous too, because we, we were really just getting to know one another. And I thought to myself, “Do I really tell him how I feel about this episode?” Because, you know, I could offend everybody in the whole organization. I just got here, you know?

Andrew: You’re brand new.

Dr. Val Brown: And, that's right. Brand new. And, I think there was a little, like, getting to know one another and how we felt about things in that moment. I'm, I'm actually glad it happened so early because it allowed us to see each other in a way that if we had held back, that we wouldn't have been able to for quite some time. And, I think it, it paved the way for us to know that we could experience that and get through the other side.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val Brown: You know, which, which felt really important. And I think gave me a lot of confidence about having the conversation with you so publicly. Yeah.

Adam: That's, that's really great.

Tabitha: That's powerful.

Adam: Um, we heard a little bit about Andrew's background. Val, can you tell us a little bit about what brought you to the work?

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah. Yeah. So I, I come from a family of educator activists, and I tried to run from that as long as I possibly could. Everyone around me was an educator growing up, and so I always recognized the, the power and promise of education. And then, specifically around, engaging civically, just in your community, right?

So my grandfather always said, you wanna leave a place better than you found it, whether that's the house, your community, anything.

And so, I started my career as a newspaper journalist, and that was fun until I had to go, like, on police raids.

That's, that's not my vibe. And so, I went back to school. Um, I've done a lot of positions in education, including middle school teaching, high school teaching higher ed, nonprofits. I did my doctoral work in professional learning and specifically the professional learning that educator activists need in order to do their work well in communities.

And so, I come at this not only as a parent, but also as an educator in this space. And so, that allows us to, to have multiple layers of conversation. Because I tried to run for, from it for so long, it doesn't actually feel like a choice. It feels like a calling. And I'm okay with that. You know, I feel at peace with that. I feel like I am answering the call.

It's interesting. Some of my Black friends were like, “Val, you have so much patience and grace to, you know, to have these conversations and to wanna do it so publicly.” And it really, it, it doesn't feel like a burden. It feels like I am doing what I am supposed to do, and my hope and my prayer and my, my work is rooted in that this is going to be valuable to someone at some point.

I remember someone, it was around 2016/2017. Someone that I worked with like four years ago, finds me, sends me a text message like, “Hey, I know I wasn't listening back then, but I totally understand what you were saying now.”

So my hope is that someone will hear these conversations at some point and it will click, and it'll be worth it.

Tabitha: Val, I wanted to ask you, you said before an activist educator.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

Tabitha: How do you define that?

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah, so, um, so an, an educator activist, when I,

Tabitha: Educator activist.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah. When I was thinking just about my work in general, I was really missing my grandfather at the time. He's passed several years now.And my dad, like, simultaneously sent me just some old letters that my grandfather wrote. And I was reading them and he was a social studies teacher.

He was also the first director of Head Start in 1965 in Sarasota, Florida.

In this letter that I quote in my dissertation says, essentially that it's not just about what we're doing in the classroom, it’s about what we're doing in the community, right? It’s a “both/and.”

And so, educator activists recognize that there's power not only in educating, but we have to think about all of the conditions around a student as well, right? And so, if we recognize that one of our students, any of our students, all of our students, are struggling with poverty, what does that mean? What type of work do we decide to do, not only in our school community, but maybe in our larger community that will help address that root problem so that our kid can continue to thrive in an educational space?

And so, educator activists, they, they care about the social issues that are affecting their children, and they don't ignore them, and they don't assume that kids can just overcome them when they come into their classroom. And they care enough to do something about it with the community in which they, they work and they serve.

Tabitha: That’s powerful. That’s really powerful.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah, hopefully, hopefully everybody gets at least one in their life. And, and, and these educators aren't always public, but many of them are, because they are so passionate about an issue.

But it can show up in the ways in which you teach young children, like, the ways in which you ask them to critically think about an issue that's happening in their community.

It can show up as service, it can show up as using your voice, as an advocate in some, some public way. But, too often educators are asked to leave their identities at the door in the name of, like, being neutral. But, you know, that's impossible, and so it's, it's owning that feeling empowered by that and wanting to do good as a result.

Tabitha: That's powerful. And I also think this idea of neutrality is, is not a thing, especially in this time when educators have to be thinking about ICE knocking on the door.

Dr. Val Brown: Correct.

Tabitha: Asking for students. Like, there is no neutrality either. You're there to educate and protect your students or,

Dr. Val Brown: Or what?

Tabitha: Or not. Which is a tough place to be. Yeah.

Adam: Yeah. And, and kind of you're, you're there to, to educate all of your students. That's the other–

Dr. Val Brown: Correct.

Adam: –thing that I think is often overlooked. This is what I hear from your work and Integrated Schools is there's power dynamics at play.

There are people at play and there's, there's relationships that we have to build. But, if we are not gonna be having these hard conversations, if we're not gonna be actively working to dismantle some of the systems that essentially made school segregated in the first place, then, then it's not gonna happen.

Dr. Val Brown: Right.

Adam: So we are the Raising Antiracist Kids.

Andrew: Yeah.

Tabitha: We're THE Raising Antiracist Kids

Adam: We are, we are THE!

Dr. Val Brown: The! That’s right.

Adam: We're actively trying. How about that?

Andrew: Yeah.

Adam: But, where do you see the connection between Integrated Schools and antiracist parenting or antiracist action?

Andrew: Yeah. You know, sort of big picture, what we would like to see in the world through the work of Integrated Schools is, like, a true multiracial democracy.

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Where we are actually sharing power equally, where we are actually creating space where everybody belongs. Where the presence of everybody in the country makes the country a better place. Like, the only way we get there is if we, is if we overcome the hierarchy of human value. If we overcome racism.

And, to me, the way we do that is through relationships. The way we do that is through getting to know each other. And it is not easy, but it is so much easier for our kids to do that.

Our, like, natural state is to want to connect. Our natural state is people, is to want to find and find shared humanity, and get close to people. And so, if we can create environments, and we don't do a very good job of it. We don't do a very good job of it for all the reasons that we don't do a very good job of it for, for, for adults, because we don't have a lot of models for it.

But I think if we do a good job of creating environments where kids can actually find their shared humanity, can see each other on equal terms and build those relationships that they wanna build anyway, that, that gives them a skillset that gives them a belief in the power of it that, that you can't really replicate intellectually.

That gives them a heart connection that makes them feel like, “Okay, I know this kid. The story about, about Ruby Bridges is messed up to me, not because intellectually that seems unfair, but because I can imagine my good friend in that scenario, and that doesn't feel right to me.”

And so, I think, like, we need to do all the things. Like, you know, anti-racism is a large project and we need to do all the things, but for me, it's really hard to imagine doing it well while keeping our kids in segregated spaces.

Dr. Val Brown: Mm. An interesting thing happened to me, I was in South Carolina on a, a work related trip and,

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val Brown: I was talking to a Black man from a Southern state and he mentioned that when he was like nine or 10 years old, he had a White friend. They would always hang out in school and he was wondering, like, “Why can't I ever come over to your house?” You know? And so one day he goes over to the house to play basketball. And when he gets to the house, the White boy's father is putting on a Klan outfit. Right? And the father's like, “What are you doing here? You know, we don't like you people. Why, why is this kid here?” And, the White boy, he stood up for him. He was like, “This is my friend.” They both got in trouble for being together. And yet, they couldn't stay away from each other. They are still friends to this day.

And, he showed us a picture of his friend and his son who also now has Black friends. Right? And so, Andrew, when you talk about, like, children being essential to us, unlearning all of the hate and bias and, and anger, and just the things that tear us apart, they are essential to that.

If, if nothing else, we can learn how to love fully and wholly from young people.

And so, for all anti-racist raising kids, parents, like, it is essential, it is essential that you don't serve as the block to that, right? That you don't cut that off from them. And what a miracle it is that that kid had a father with such hateful views who was still able to see the humanity in his friends, so much so that they're still friends today. Right?

Tabitha: We have so much to learn from children.

Dr. Val Brown: We do! We do.

Tabitha: We have so much to learn from them. And I also think about the fact that our children are sort of swimming in White supremacy in this country. And, uh, even when there's intentionality around teaching them anti-racism, teaching them about equity and, and social justice and so forth, that there are still things that they pick up on around them.

A common theme that we sometimes hear in our work is that, you know, they're too young to learn bias and that they only learn about bias from their parents or people around them. And the reality is that things like the media, it has a powerful impact on them. The shows they watch, the books they read.

And we talk a lot about intentionality around all these things, around the six building blocks of anti-racist parenting, which I'm glad, Andrew, you about sort of moving at the speed of relationships. And leaning into relationships, not just on a one-on-one basis, but also in community with each other in larger communities, 'cause that's also something we talk about, the power of building anti-racist communit, especially in-person community.

Andrew: Yeah, I think that, that, like, you can't fake that. You know?

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Like you, you can put all that other scaffolding around and, and set yourself up to capitalize on community as best as possible. And doing that work is really important.

Tabitha: Right?

Andrew: But if, if you're trying to teach your kid that we are all equal, that they should find shared humanity, and then you're opting to put them in the, quote unquote, good school where they're surrounded by nothing but White, wealthy kids, like what message are you actually sending to them?

How are they actually going to internalize the idea that we are all equal if all of your actions them, like, “Oh yeah, we can go serve soup to ‘those people.’ You can maybe play sports with ‘those people,’ but when it comes to the things that are important to us, like our education, we're gonna keep you in this sort of cloistered bubble where you're not gonna actually have exposure to anybody who's different from you.

I think, like, those messages are, are nearly impossible to counter. No matter how many books you read, no matter how many, you know, webinars you watch, no matter how much kind of intellectual work you do.

Tabitha: Exactly.

Dr. Val Brown: I have a lot of White supremacy headaches during our, our podcast episodes. I'm not gonna lie. I'm like, dang man.

Andrew: Nearly every episode, it sneaks in there.

Dr. Val Brown: I'm like, dang man! Gosh. You know? However, however, I will say that the longer I'm in this work, the more grace I'm able to find because the more I realize how thick that bubble is. How you can live your whole entire life and literally know nothing about anyone who is different from you. And, if I may speak for Black people again, um,

Andrew: Just for the record, I never ask her to speak for all Black people!

Dr. Val Brown: No. I just do it.

Andrew: She opts into that!

[Laughter]

Dr. Val Brown: I just do it. Um, but I, I think that is something that we could learn and find more capacity in which to lean in. Right? If you really think about someone's whole existence was designed to keep you out, keep your issues out, keep your thoughts out, keep your ideas out, to minimize you to, make you feel like you are nothing. And they are trying to break outta that bubble. If they are actively and, and it is a struggle and it's ugly and they're messing up, like you have to give some points for that.

I didn't have that same battle, right? There, I, I cannot reflect on a time where it felt uncomfortable to talk about race with my family. You know?

Andrew: Mm-Hmm.

Dr. Val Brown: I cannot think of a time where we couldn't talk about Blackness or what it meant to live in America in a racialized society, or discrimination or like, I can't think of a time where that was unsafe conversation in my family. And in fact it was common, you know?

So yeah, I, I, I don't envy that bubble at all. And, and I applaud people who are trying to, to break out of it, as ugly as it looks. And I, I hope they have, and they meet people who are willing to meet them at least part of the way. You know?

Tabitha: Yeah.

Adam: It seems like you all have to be, I mean, we all have to be very intentional about breaking that bubble, but especially White folks.

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Adam: Because like you're saying, like if we don't, we could pretend like we don't see that bubble.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

Adam: I worked in New York City schools for a very long time, and New York City schools are incredibly segregated.

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Adam: Um, you know, especially racially segregated, but, but economically, and you could be 10 blocks away from the next school, and it could look entirely different.

Andrew: Right.

Adam: And the only way to break the bubble that you're talking about is to be super intentional about it.

Dr. Val Brown: Yep. And that, that can be scary and painful, and jarring. And you start to question everything. And the questioning everything could, could lead you to retreat. [Val chuckles] Because “It's scary out here. I don't recognize this place. This is not what I was taught the world was.”

Andrew: Yeah. It comes back to the power of community. It's why I think, like,

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: You know, the, the, the resources that you all offer Raising Antiracist Kids, it's like people need somewhere to land.

It's one thing to be willing to take the step, to let go of all the messages that as White people we have received about how the world is supposed to work, about meritocracy. It's an intentional project of White supremacy for you to not be able to see the bubble.

Dr. Val Brown: Right

Andrew: Like, the invisibility of the bubble is intentional. So, first you've it, which is a big step. Then to break out of it, you have to know that there's somewhere to land on the other side.

You have to know that in giving up all of these there is some, there's a soft place to, to be. And that's where I think, creating communities, it’s what we try to do at Integrated Schools, is create these pockets (43 chapters now) is like, here's a soft spot where you can land. If, if you're ready this step, we've got you. You're, you're okay. You're in community. You may feel like you're going against everything your parents ever taught you. You may feel like you're, you know, you're, your dad who's putting on the Klan outfit, like, to reject that is, is a big step to reject–-

Dr. Val Brown: It is, it's a beating.

Andrew: –all the notions. Right.

Dr. Val Brown: It’s a literal beating as a child, you know?

Andrew: To reject all the messages you're getting about what it means to be a good parent. To reject the, the things that your neighbors are, the ways that they look at you when you say your kid is going to the school down the block, all those things. The, the only way to get through it is, is with community.

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Tabitha: We're sort of driven to think in very binary ways of people as either good or bad. And I'm thinking about what you said earlier, Val, about extending grace to people who are committing to this work and who are maybe in a very messy way trying to work through it and struggle with it. And I really love that, because I think that we, we always say that we, we work with people who are looking for the “how” and who have already committed to–

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tabitha: –if they're gonna do the work. And I think about the fact that so many people are struggling with it, and it's messy and it's not a sort of binary or either good or bad, or everything you do fits into these neat little categories.

Andrew: Right.

Tabitha: I think that's a huge, of the work that we do is having grace for people that are willing and committed to the struggle.

Dr. Val Brown: I mean, if they found us, that's already work that they've done! Right?

Also, I need so much grace around so many things. When I think back on my limited or ignorant thinking around any, any of the other isms that didn't directly affect me.

Since 2016, I have thought more deeply about having citizenship. And what that means and how that is a significant area of privilege for anyone who is not feeling that, um, yet. You should feel it right now. You should, you should see it in every community and every street and on the news, right? Like, so I, so I recognize I need so much grace, and if I am asking for that from anyone who is willing to help me as I am stumbling, it, the very least I can do is extend that to someone who is, who's also trying.

Tabitha: Yes.

Adam: I really appreciate that and, kind of, giving as much openness. I’m thinking about, the episode y'all did around kind of, like, is integration working?

Dr. Val Brown: Dr. Rooks.

Andrew: Noliwe Rooks? Yeah.

Dr. Val Brown: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Adam: That was quite a, uh, challenge to, uh.

Dr. Val Brown: That gave Andrew a headache! [Val chuckles]

Andrew: For like for weeks, and then I'd go back and start editing it and a get a headache all over–

Dr. Val Brown: That gave him a real big headache.

Adam: Be-because the assumption is that, if we want to desegregate, we have to send Black and Brown students to the White schools.

Dr. Rooks said essentially, she's like, “I'm not against integration, I'm against integration in the way that it is currently done.”

So have you seen examples of it working?

[Val giggles]

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Val Brown: I think we regularly asked “Have y'all seen this working?”

Andrew: I would say we’ve never really tried true integration, real integration. The, uh, IntegrateNYC that high school students came up with these “5 Rs of real integration,” sort of like laying out what does, what does it mean to, for a school to be integrated in a way that actually works for all students?

Because we've never tried that, right? Like in, in the wake of Brown v Board, well, we did nothing for a decade. And then in the wake of the Civil Rights Act, we were like, “Okay, fine, we will begrudgingly allow Black kids to come to White schools. And we certainly have no use for Black teachers.” So we fired a hundred thousand of them.

“We have no use for Black principals,” so we fired a whole bunch of them. “We have no use for Black schools,” so we closed a whole bunch of them down, and like, “Fine, you can come into our space, but we are not gonna change our space in any way because you are here. Your presence is not gonna make our space different in any way.”

And even through all of that, we know there were a lot of benefits. Rutger Johnson out of Berkeley has work showing this sort of, like, longitudinal benefits to kids who were exposed to what ended up being more resources. We know that “green follows White.”

The money follows the White kids. You put, you put Black kids in White schools and they are going to get access to more resources, and that is gonna have positive impacts. And there was a real cost to the way we went about that. There was a cost to, you know, communities. There was a cost to teachers, there was a cost to the profession, and then there's, like, active harm being done to kids every single day.

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Betina Love calls it, you know, like “spirit murdering” happening every day in schools, because we have not actually done the work to create inclusive, welcoming environments, where everybody actually feels like they belong to do that.

So I think, you know, Dr., Dr. Rooks, is that a her, kind of, faith in our ability to do that in the short term is pretty limited, which I understand.

I still feel like it’s our only hope to get through. But from, from the beginning of Integrated Schools as an organization, we have talked about the importance of “What does the school actually look like when you get there?”

So first of all, our mission is, largely calling in folks with privilege to do the work of desegregating.

I drive my, my oldest across to the other side of town to go to a school that is almost entirely Black and Brown kids as part of doing work of desegregating, because that one-way model where we're just giving Black and Brown kids access to White schools has so much harm.

But then how we show up in spaces makes a huge difference. So, like, when I get there, am I trying to take the school over? Am I trying to remake the school in my image or am I trying to become a part of the actual community?

So, I mean to, to go back, to go back to your question, I think you, you can find some schools here and there that are doing a good job of creating really inclusive environments. I think they're, they're pretty few and far between. And I think they're few and far between because there aren't a lot of incentives to do it. There aren't a lot of great models to do it. We're not really training teachers or administrators to have the skillset to hold a community like that.

We have a largely White teaching force, Whiter school administration, and spend very little time trying to give them the skillset that it takes to hold a multiracial community together. And, like, if a school leader's job is anything, it's to hold a school community together.

And there are so few models of what that actually looks like. And so we see schools that are White and privileged, and stay White and privileged, and have White and privileged administrators who feel like they're doing a good job. And their test scores look good. And so the district is like, “You're doing great!”

And then we have schools that are full of Black and Brown kids and, and we have administrators who just cycle through there. And the, the rare handful of integrated spaces, you know, to hold onto that, to maintain those spaces is really hard. And to have the skillset to hold those, I think is something that we haven't done a good job of, of building the kind of workforce to do.

Tabitha: You said something that really resonated with me. You said the way that parents and White kids show u in schools that are predominantly Black and Brown also has an impact. We see this happening a lot online, especially post 2020, where White folks in particular come into Black and Brown spaces and they want to be, like, the most anti-racist and they want to–

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Tabitha and Adam: –sort of be, like, “the voice” of everything equity related. So can you talk a little bit more about how White parents and can, can also teach their kids to show up in spaces where maybe they're not centered, maybe they're not the focus. But they have to find a place within a community.

Dr. Val Brown: I think it's my favorite episode of the season: Elias?

Andrew: Susan and Elias, yeah.

Dr. Val Brown: Susan and Elias, that's a mother and a son, and the son spoke about being a White kid in a, in a Black school community.

Andrew: Yeah, so he's in high school now and his parents opted to move him out of a, a fancy private kindergarten into the neighborhood school where he was a, like, one of a small handful of White kids. And he remembered this feeling of, like, not being centered.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

Andrew: That, like, it wasn't about him.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

Andrew: And, you know, I don't know how he dealt that when he was five or six, but at 16 he was so grateful to have had that experience, because he recognized that that was not the normal experience for a White man.

Adam: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And so, to have that perspective, again, you, you could teach, you could tell him that a thousand times, but until he actually felt it as a 6-year-old, it, it just didn't, like, land in the same way.

Dr. Val Brown: And, it really stuck with me his, his, outlook around, what's possible when parents not only commit to showing up in a way that doesn't harm the community, but also talks to their kids about what that looks like.

And he also started to see how other schools thought about his predominantly Black school. So he would hear other schools at sporting events talk about his school, right? Assuming that he was not like one of them. And to have a sense of kinship with, with the community, was something that he also took away from that.

The idea that the schools that I went to, the schools that my children go to are not good enough for White families. That always feels so deeply personal. I don't understand it. It makes me sad, because there are, there are some White folks who will do anything but, you know, put our kids together in the same school. And it feels painful.

So when I first started this work, I really wanted it done [Val laughs] by the time my son got to like second grade, right?

He was like, in kindergarten, I was like, we could totally fix this by second grade.

And so, once I settled on understanding that this is a marathon relay race, I felt like my part of the race was more manageable.

Yes, it's a marathon, but I'm not going to fix it all in my lifetime. And so when we were dealing with 400 years of institutional racism on every level, the fact that I thought it was gonna take me two years….

[Laughter]

Andrew: You're a boss! You’re a boss, Val!

Dr. Val Brown: Just two–

Andrew: Don’t sell yourself short, but that was a big project–

Dr. Val Brown: Just gonna be two years that it's gonna take me to fix this. And it, and when I first started doing anti-racism work around the country, I told my grandma what I was doing and she was like, “I went, went to one of those trainings back in the 1960s.”

I'm like, oh, damn. Ugh! That must be bad. But yeah, once, once you understand that yes, this is a hard marathon that you're running and, it, it will not be fixed in your lifetime, to completion.

You'll absolutely do some good while you're here. You'll do a lot of good while you're here. But especially in our current context where it feels like, I just don't know which way we're going. We are, we are swimming upstream currently.

Right?

The fact that people spent generations upon generations upon generations enslaved. Literally everyone that they knew and could remember being enslaved. To know that just like these really good 70 years that I have, that feels like, okay, I've done my part. For the people who could not see, could not see the four of us on a call, could not see you all married, could not see me and Andrew rockin’.

And like, that was, that was unimaginable. Right? And so, it feels in many ways, like a privilege to be in this part of the race where we can be in this space where we do know, like, we have real allies and real people who are trying every day to get to the other side. I mean.

Andrew: Damn. Look at you conjuring up some hope, Val! I didn’t think you had it in you!

Dr. Val Brown: I, you know! I can't. Look, look, look, I can't say I was hopeful when I got here. You know? I'm like, dang.

I try not to read the headlines before we record. [Andrew laughs]

Adam: But, I love visual of the marathon relay of–

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah.

Adam: –we're here to pass it on to. So, this is a back to school episode.

Dr. Val Brown: Okay.

Adam: And we're thinking about how parents can go back to school and be, um, in community with the educators and the other parents in their school around anti-racism, around integration. What are, what are some things that they can be thinking about and, and doing right now?

Andrew: Like, step one is getting and building trust and building relationships. So certainly if you're showing up new at a school, particularly, you know, if you're a White parent showing up at a school where maybe it's not entirely full of White parents, like taking the time to sit back, to get to know the community. To look for all of the assets that exist in the community.

So often we come in with this idea that “this school is broken,” or “I'm gonna come fix this school,” or “I'm gonna get six of my friends and we're gonna go over there and make that school great.” Ignoring all of the wonderful things that exist in the school community.

So, you've gotta try to become part of the community and, and you don't necessarily get the benefit of the doubt just for showing up.

I think, you know, modeling “What does it look like to, to find community?” Our kids are watching us all the time. We can say, “go out and, and make friends with kids who look different from you.” But, uh, when we get on the playground, who are we talking to? It's so easy to go and find the people who look like us and, and probably have similar life stories to us and jump straight into a fair, fairly surface level conversation.

It's much harder to get through that kind of initial “get to know you” phase of a, of a conversation with somebody, if you have very little shared experience. But there's such, like, a richer conversation that can be had, if you can do it. And so where, how are how are showing up, where, who are we talking to on the playground?

Who are we trying to build relationships with at a, at, at a school, I think are key, you know, kind of first steps as, as you're thinking about the new school year starting, those are the places, what I'm, that I'm thinking about now. Both of my kids are starting new schools this year is like, how do I, how do I show up and say, okay, who, who do I want to get to know?

Who do I, how do I want to be in community in this school?

Dr. Val Brown: I made Andrew get a Black Lives Matter sign for his yard once,

Andrew: That does not sound exactly the way I would like it to sound, Val!

[Laughter]

Dr. Val Brown: Um,

Andrew: It’s true. You encouraged me.

Dr. Val Brown: I did.

Andrew: I wasn't, like, resistant to the message”Black Lives Matter”

Dr. Val Brown: No, no, you weren't.

Andrew: I just didn’t have a sign in my yard.

Dr. Val Brown: That's right. I think right now, show up! Show up with some buttons, show up with a shirt that says, I am someone who understands and knows, and you can talk to me about certain things. Because I do think White folks in particular, if you have a stance that you are, are willing to stand on, let someone know.

I went on a field trip to St. Augustine, um, Florida with my daughter once, and it was like high, like, super racist, the, the whole tour and everything else. And I'm just in shock. And this White woman, she leans over, she's like, “I cannot believe this,” right? And I'm like, oh! Okay! All right. “Me either.” Right?

[Laughter]

You know? And so, um, both of us and our kids were together for the rest of the tour, like, processing and asking critical thinking questions around what the young people were hearing, right?

But I thought it was just gonna be me and my daughter, right? Because we were the only Black folks on the trip. So I needed her to say, “Hey, I am also looking at this critically. I also see that there's an issue.”

So, White folks, in, in showing up, let people know what you stand for. And it can just be a button. I, I, I peek people's buttons all the time. And I, and I compliment them.

The other thing I will say is we know that educators are, are under attack. And so, if you see an educator and they're, they're sharing something or their syllabus, or they have a poster on their wall. Too often they don't get the, the kudos that they need in those moments. Like, “Hey, I, I really support this work.” So if you are a caregiver or a parent and you see something in your, in your kids' classroom, go ahead and email that principal, you know, copy the teacher. Let them know publicly and often how great they are doing. Because more often than not, the teachers are getting complaints about what's happening and not all the kudos. If your kid comes home and says how much they love their teacher, let somebody know, right? Let your community know that the teaching at the school is phenomenal and my kid is having a great time and here are the ways that they're developing.

Using your, your voice as a parent in the way that you would promote anything that you love, you should do that with your school community.

Tabitha: Yes. I love that. And I also think about if you're White and you are starting with a button, think about how you can always, sort of graduate from there.

Dr. Val Brown: Mm-Hmm

Tabitha: Onto the next thing.

Dr. Val Brown: Right.

Tabitha: You start to expand your work within the community. And I'm, and, and I'm also thinking about finding your place and so forth, but start small and keep on going.

Dr. Val Brown: That's right.

Tabitha: Keep growing and keep expanding and so forth.

Dr. Val Brown: Yeah. We need all families to continue to share that message with folks.

Because there's too many counter-messages to those ideas. And so, we have to be loud and proud that our schools are fantastic, that our children are doing well, that you are safe and loved here. Um, because it's true!

Tabitha: Thank you so much for taking the time to join us.

Adam: We really appreciate you all bringing your wisdom and your knowledge to the microphones, not just in tonight’s, but in other ones. And we're going back in the archives and listening to, to old ones and we're gonna put some, some links, especially to the ones that we referred to tonight.

Andrew: Yeah.

Adam: But I think definitely encouraging people to go back and listen. Um, really appreciating you all taking the time to keep going at it and one of the things that I love is that there's a community out there. Yes. There's a community of people working on this. You are building community.

43 of them so far. I would ask you: how can people get involved in your work? And, um, and then really thank you all.

Andrew: Thank you. Yeah, thank you for having us. This has been a lovely conversation. And, and thank you for all the work you all are doing. Like, the kids are the only hope. So, we've gotta start, gotta start with them young. You can go to integratedschools.org, It's our website. You can find the podcast anywhere you find your podcasts, the Integrated Schools podcast. And, um, on the website you can find, a local chapter. You can join our book club. We've got great sessions coming up, reading e viewings, original Sins. At the end of September. We've got, uh, Caregiver Connection. So we connect people one-on-one.

If you're thinking like, “Oh, okay, my, I've got a, I've got a kindergartner who's just starting and I'm not sure how I feel about this school. I need some, I need some community and I need somebody to lean on.” We'll connect you with somebody in a similar situation or in a similar geographic area, or somebody who's kind of “been there, done that.”

We have something called the Two Tour Pledge, where we encourage people to go out and tour two schools that might not otherwise be on their list and find some good things about them and share those things with their community. And you know, we're on social media, so you can always find us there at Integrated Schools.

Tabitha: I also just wanna say on a personal level, in the current climate where any work that has to do with anti-racism, equity, anything like that is under attack (not just from this administration, but from the people that support them, just regular people that support them), I am grateful for the work that you all continue to do. Just, your voice is very clear and the work is really, really powerful, and I'm honored to be able to listen to what you've done so far.

Dr. Val Brown: Awesome.

Tabitha: And looking forward to what you have coming up in the future.

Kids: You've been listening to the Racing and the Rest Kids had Cast is tab on Adam. The music was done by Steven Jacobs and Adam Jacobs. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for joining us.

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