S12E2 – Identity and Purpose with Bryon Sanders

S12E2 - Identity and Purpose with Byron Sanders

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew White dad from Denver.

Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: and this is Identity and Purpose with Byron Sanders. Val, we’ve got a good one today. A friend of yours. You have not missed yet. Every friend you've brought on the podcast has been spectacular.

Val: I mean, they are interesting people.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And, uh, I appreciate Byron for coming on. We met through some professional connections and became quick friends. I think part of it is because we share a birthday month, so obviously…

Andrew: You must be... You must be close, right?

Val: That is a special connection there. Uh, but I have always really respected Byron, the work that he does, the way he approaches the world, and what he's trying to do, to impact the community around him.

Andrew: And he's done a ton of things.He's working for a healthcare company. He is on the school board in Dallas. But I think the work of his that really made me excited to talk to him for the podcast was a job he recently left at an organization called Big Thought that really is focused on creating learning experiences outside of just the traditional classroom. So, after school programs, before school programs, then also kind of push in or pull out programs in schools.

Val: Yeah. And I think that is important to us because we recognize that in this moment we are going to need as many entities as possible to support our young children for the values that we have that people together across difference and, and show them what's possible in a good way in the world.

Andrew: Yeah. I think one of the things about Big Thought, they came up with this Creator Archetype, and he'll explain that in the episode, but just this idea of kind of the, the skills and the tools that we want kids to have that maybe there's not space for in our current education system, that big thought was really focused on providing in those sort of third spaces. And I think, you know, particularly in this time where we're looking at the federal government pulling back support for things that we think are valuable in schools, we look at teachers being under attack. Where can we turn to these third spaces and try to get some of those skills instilled in our kids, even if the public education system isn't able to do that in this moment?

Val: Yeah, I think what is a good reminder is that there are caring adults in every industry who want to support the growth and development of our young people. And so we expand our community and recognize there are many entities and people who care about young children and the world we're trying to create for and with them, I think that's really important. And I think what connects both of us to Byron, even though he's in a slightly different field, is our recognition that our identity is tied to our purpose and the impact that we wanna make.

Andrew: Yeah. His journey to sort of finding his own identity, which is a really powerful story that we'll hear in the conversation, you know, coming to terms with his past and figuring out not just what he wanted to run away from, but what he wanted to run towards is such a powerful story and really drives his purpose and why even through the various professional activities he's engaged in there's been this thread underneath of how do I be a community member? How do I, you know, help people? How do I pour back into my community and serve?

Val: Yeah, and it's, it's funny I realize that you and I share that run to. We have not been able to escape this work, even if we try.

Andrew: It's true.

Val: So I feel kinship in that way.

Andrew: Absolutely. Shall we take a listen to Byron?

Val: Absolutely. Let's do it.

Andrew: Alright.

[THEME MUSIC]

Byron Sanders: Byron Sanders. I'm here in Dallas. And I guess 20 years in education in multiple different capacities. From starting a tutoring company called Group Excellence. Fantastic. All the way to fast forward, fast forward, fast forward, I was recently elected to the Dallas Independent School District Board of Trustees after, uh, seven years of having been a CEO, Big Thought, which is one of the most fantastic nonprofit organizations in the country in youth development. Uh, helping build 21st century skills, specializing in and really elevating the necessity for us to build real learning experiences outside of just the traditional classroom.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: So the bottom line is, man, been at this for a long time in a lot of different seats, and as always, I carry my people and my family and my ancestors with me. So, yeah. Excited to be here with y'all.

Andrew: Thank you. Yeah. You've done some work in healthcare, you've done work in banking. Covered a whole lot of ground. It seems like there's been a focus on making a difference for the most marginalized, for closing the opportunity gap. Why, like, who poured that into you? Why do you care about that?

Byron Sanders: Man. So my first model was my mother, um, 40 year educator. She retired and I called her today, actually, she called me today. Today's my birthday, so mom called me.

Andrew: Hey, happy birthday!

Dr. Val.: Happy Birthday!

Byron Sanders: But yeah, my mom she was my first, teacher role model, and she's always been service oriented. We would have kids always over our house. And you know, my mom to this day is exactly that same human being. She retired and she's doing the same thing that a lot of teachers who retired do, which is teach. That's, that's where I learned probably without even explicit lessons that you're supposed to live life, with an eye toward an impact for other people.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: Biggest thing that really entrenched that though was, um, and I know we're, we're getting deep real quick, but…

Andrew: That's how we like to roll.

Dr. Val.: Yes.

Byron Sanders: …um, so I did not know who I was for a long time, and my whole identity, my whole like, you know, worldview was shaped off of trying not to be something. [music] So I was trying not to be like my dad. I grew up in a household where there's domestic violence and so everything that he was, you know, you know, I know it sounds weird to say, I'm grateful. I'm grateful for the perspective that I was blessed to have, which is you can either repeat the things that you see or you can be like, nah, that ain't gonna be me.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: So that pushed me in a, in a, in a really positive place because I was literally running from negativity. But what that did was it, I, I was only somebody relative to something negative, I had no space, place, or incent to figure out who I was, what was my purpose, what was my identity, what was my mission.

And so I actually built a really deep skill on serving, being involved, being engaged. But my motivation was I did it because every time I was at practice or rehearsal or the, or the, or the track meet or the football game or something like that, we weren't at home. And if we weren't at home, mom was safe. That's why I did it.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: And then I would not only have to go and do something, but I had to go and do it great. Cause I needed a good report card or a sticker or a trophy or something that I could come home, run inside and be like, “Dad, look, look, look, look, look, look what? Look what I got. Look what I got. Aren't you happy? Isn't this cool? Isn't this funny?” Because if I could do that, then mom was safe. I noticed dad's in a good mood. Mom's safe. These were things that I was carrying with me since I was six years old.

So while that did allow me to show up as the happy, gregarious, liked to make people laugh, you know, just super extroverted kid who does great in school and everything else, because it was coming from trauma that I had not resolved, it is possible to swing that pendulum too far. Even in a good direction.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: For me, I ended up being one of those people who was almost manically doing good without any discernment on should I be involved in this? Should I, I, who, who is this actually helping? Right? Nah, I'm a fixer. I've been fixing all my life.

Dr. Val.: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: That needs fixed. I'm about to go fix it. Should you? I don't know. That's immaterial, but it's about to get fixed. So I'm at college, you know, these have been my habits. I joined a fraternity 'cause I was about to fix that too. And this, this fraternity uh, there, some of the practices were a little tore up from the floor up.

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: And I would say illegitimate. Especially the intake process. The pledging process was some wild things we do.

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: I was like, so here's what I'm gonna do. Bet I'm gonna go under cover. I'm gonna get my letters, I'm gonna come through. And they ain't gonna say, you can't do it. It was like, ah, nah, I'm on the inside. I got my, you know, and this is why we're gonna change it. Then I'm gonna go recruit a bunch of other guys and they gonna come in and then we're gonna all vote and it'll be like this dramatic moment. There'll be like music playing in the background. It's like, yeah, it is our chapter now we goin legit. That's how it played out. In my mind.

Andrew: Yep.

Byron Sanders: That is not what actually ended up happening. What happened was, uh, near tragedy, [music] we almost took a young man's life. And, and I say we, 'cause I was complicit in that. After I had gotten my letters, I'd recruited a couple of guys. Uh, one of these guys to this day is one of my best friends. And at the time, one of the other guys was a deeply good friend and they trusted me, which is one of the reasons why he said, okay, we'll go through this process. And he almost died, man. Drank too much water one night and was in the hospital, ER, they thought he was, they thought he could die. By the grace of God, he survived. What do you think happened to everybody who was involved in that? Zero tolerance. It was national news, expelled.

So here I am, the kid who had modeled my life off of doing everything right. Right. Now I'm expelled, facing potential charges, and, I'd been to the principal's office once in my life.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: And so now I fell into a very deep depression because I was like, yo, my, my dad was a college dropout and an abuser, and here I am expelled in a hazer. And I saw those things as being the exact same, and I was like, [music stop] I cannot escape this. [more music]

So there was a moment where I actually thought maybe I should just take myself off the planet because I'm not trying to hurt nobody anymore and I don't, I, the shame is too much. [end music] And that's when Earl Johnson stepped in. Earl Johnson was at the time the Vice President, I believe, of enrollment in admissions with the University of Tulsa. And when no one else would give me a second chance, that man did.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: I ended up getting a chance to go to the University of Tulsa as an expelled student, off of an exception that he chose to push for, just to give me a choice. And previously, again, remember, I'm the Midas touch kid. If I want to fix it, it gets fixed. I'd had a deeply humbling process and I was brought to a place where the only way that I got another chance was through the grace and participation and trust of another person. And I couldn't have seen it any other way. It had always been like that, but I thought I was hot shit. I thought I was dope. And that lesson has shaped my worldview ever since.

So the reason why I believe so deeply in community work, the reason why I believe so deeply in spending every day to create the pathway or bridge from somebody's today to seeing their best selves is because I had it happen for me.

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: Um, and, I don't know of a better tool than education to do that. And that's why, you know, of all the different things that I do, education is always gonna be core to some of that work, even with the work that I'm doing now in healthcare professionally, I'm such an addict that I was like, and now I'll go run for school board.

Dr. Val.: I know when I saw that I was like, wait, what?

Byron Sanders: As I'm launching a major enterprise, you know? But I was like, well, sure. No, no, no. It makes sense. It makes so much sense, Val.

Dr. Val.: Yeah

Byron Sanders: That's how the, that's how the perspective came about, and that's why I do what I do.

Dr. Val.: You did say we're gonna get deep, real quick and that we've been deep pretty quickly, but we've never been that deep pretty quickly. That, that was, that was, that was really fast. So much to unpack there. So did you imagine yourself being an Earl Johnson in these roles?

Byron Sanders: That's, that's exactly what I did. The biggest thing that Earl taught me actually was that my capacity to be an Earl Johnson for somebody meant that I had to, um, understand my why. When somebody asked me what is the greatest advice that I can give to anybody, professionally, relationship, whatever, get to know who you are and why you exist. Earl Johnson went through that process 20 years before he ever met me.

Dr. Val.: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: He was going to the NFL. He had done all his things right at school. He had a dream of playing in the NFL. So he graduated from the University of Tulsa, got drafted by the Steelers. Then he gets hurt and the kind of hurt that eventually ended his, his career prematurely. And so now he's like, you know, this was the dream. Now the dream's not even possible.

But he did something that is so illustrative of what, what I think we should all do, which is instead of like, okay, what do I do now? Let me find the next job. Let me just, reflexively snap to something. He kind of paused, sat in it and was like, well, why did I want to do any of that in the first place? And he realized it was, it was to be a role model. It was to be a lighthouse for somebody's, uh, vision of themselves and, you know, to help somebody know that they can go out and achieve, right?

So he was doing that as a symbol for the people that he came from, the community that he came from, and, and the people that he knew and loved. And so they could see, yo, if I can do it, you can too. So, he was like, alright, where else can I do that then? And then he came back. The place where he saw he could best live out that purpose was in college admissions. So he came back and he started off as admissions counselor at the University of Tulsa.

And 20 years later, when there was this little kid from Oak Cliff, DeSoto, Pleasant Grove, Southern Dallas, who needed somebody to hear his story and not just cast him away, Earl specifically uniquely, was that person. And I had been rejected from many other institutions that I was trying to get back into. He's the only one who heard my story.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: So because he found his identity and his purpose. He was in the position to have the kind of collision that I needed in order to save my life. And so that was the lesson I took from that. So I have my mission statement. I know why I am doing what I'm doing, and even though you look at my resume, you're like, what is this dude doing with his life? Every single one of those steps, thank y'all. Uh, every single one of those steps has actually made sense because they're mission aligned. He helped me know that I needed to find my mission.

Andrew: He, he helped you find the positive version of who you wanted to be, to strive for, as opposed to the negative version of who you didn't want to be, that you were running from for so long.

Byron Sanders: Exactly. That's exactly it. Yeah.

Dr. Val.: Hmm.

Andrew: Beautiful.

Dr. Val.: I wanna shift a little bit from all of your positions in education, like what are you seeing right now? What alarms you right now? What encourages you right now?

Byron Sanders: Yeah.

Dr. Val.: Where do you find hope right now?

Byron Sanders: Now that is a question, friend. Um, you know what I find hope in, I find hope in my imagination.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: And I mean that without the butterflies, daffodils… Because yeah, because we're in, we're in some pretty tough times. No doubt. And this is not gonna be a surprise to anybody listening. I know it ain't a surprise to you guys.

I'm seeing a startling, shocking speed of the dissolution of things that I was raised to adore. The Civil Rights Movement, right? The Voting Rights Act, the Civil Rights Act, that came out of, out of the Freedom Rides and the sit-ins and, the Children's Crusade, right? Like all of that stuff. And it is literally vaporizing before our very eyes. And it hasn't taken a long time.

Andrew: No, it's been fast.

Byron Sanders: It's been real fast.

Andrew: Yeah.

Byron Sanders: And then the other problem that we're having is, we are getting to a place where we literally can't talk about things that actually literally happened. We're not even talking about like, you know, having a subjective opinion about things that we're getting to a place where we can't even say this thing happened. That is scar to me and should be scary to a lot of people.

My hope though, comes from the fact that I had things that I was raised on that I was proud about, and those things were the culmination of years and years of blood, sweat, tears, and people who had never even seen that good things were possible for themselves, and people who looked like them and came from their communities. All they had was their radical imagination.

Andrew: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: That I can go from being an enslaved person to a world where we're sitting here on a podcast, first of all, on a box that talks to you and there's another person sitting way away, that's the first thing. But…

Dr. Val.: Right.

Byron Sanders: We're free. I got a house, I'm sitting, I'm sitting in my house. My kids are getting a phenomenal education that is the wildest dreams of the people that I'm talking about.

So what we have to fight against today in order to make sure that people have access to real opportunity no matter what race, creed, religion, or ability, a person’s gender sexual identity, right? The fact that we're fighting for that world, it's almost light work compared to what a lot of our ancestors went through.

So that's the thing that gives me hope. If they could do it, who am I to be like, oh, woe is me. And the world ahead of us is just in, insurmountable. It's just not true.So if the pendulum can swing in the direction that we don't want it to go. Lord knows it can swing back. And I can't say that it can't 'cause we've seen people do it. So that's what gives me hope. But that is what I'm seeing.

The last thing I'll say on this too, another thing that I'm seeing is to get even more specific, we're in a crisis of men and boys right now. Women's revolution, women's rights, especially the momentum that we really got going around the sixties, seventies, it created a more expansive definition of what being a woman is, which is great. That's what we needed. I no longer only have to be a nurse or a teacher or, or a homemaker. Those are phenomenal things. And I can be whatever else I want to be too. I can have my own bank account.

Dr. Val.: That's right. My own credit card.

Byron Sanders: Wild. Yeah. I got my own credit card.

Andrew: Yep.

Byron Sanders: This is so crazy that we're talking about in living memory of, of color pictures where that wasn't the case. Okay? So that happens, which also means I don't only have to be married, I can be divorced. I don't have to get married at all. Right? Like, I, I can, I can live, I can be outside without a man on my arm or something. Um,

Dr. Val.: I could be outside. [laughing]

Byron Sanders: I could be outside, right? With a T and then two Ss. Two Ss too. I could be outside and outside. [Everyone laughing] And at the same time that the definition of a woman grew, the definition of a man stayed very small in my opinion. And not that men are small, just who we can be was small. Okay? If I'm not the main bacon earner, then what am I? Or okay, I am struggling mentally right now. I'm struggling emotionally right now, but I'm also a man, which means the box says I can't go and ask anybody for help. I don't know how to build friends, 'cause that would mean that I need them. And I'm a man. I don't need any god dang thing, right? Like, so that, that is our world. We can only do these jobs.

Dr. Val.: Right.

Byron Sanders: So bell hooks put it best. She said, I'm surprised we had a revolution. Men, where's y'all's? Because y'all seem okay with trying to cling for this very small definition of your humanity. And because of that and seeing the world move so far beyond what that used to be, we are struggling. We're in a void. We're trying to find our identity and the people who are filling in the space because we're not talking about it. We're not being explicit about what masculinity actually is and what a positive reflection could be at a broad systemic level because we're not filling in that space, it's like Mad Libs. Some craziness is coming in and filling in blanks.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: The red pills, the mantle sphere, all of that extra stuff. And for the first time I saw a stat that showed that there's fewer boys today who believe that a woman should be paid the same amount for the same work, and that should even be able to work outside the house. There's fewer boys who believe that than five years ago, for the first time in recent history. That's a problem. That's scary. And we gotta fix it. We gotta start to build systems that speak to man-ness and adjusting to that kind of reality.

Richard Reeves’, Of Boys and Men should be required reading for anybody in education and anybody in work that has to do with boys or men, which is gonna be everywhere.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: We should all be reading this and we actually should be looking at policy solutions the same way that we started to get smart about how are we gonna create spaces for women to get into STEM, into the workforce? How are we supporting them?

We actually need to recalibrate and make sure that while we keep those things going, don't stop 'em, we need to help men figure out their place in the world today. Because the thing that happens when women don't know what their, where their place in the world is, is we survive. [Val laughs] When men don't know where their place in the world is. Um,

Dr. Val.: Mmmm.

Byron Sanders: We burn things down.

Dr. Val.: Mmmm.

Andrew: It gets ugly fast.

Dr. Val.: We haven't really talked about boys on the show. I think you're giving us some, some things to really push on, I think what you're offering us today are different angles to think about how we even understand the young people who are in our school systems to begin with, and the ways in which they are being served or may not be served, and how all of the spaces that our children are in, we should be thinking about and considering these things. And so, you are, are currently not a teacher, you're currently not working in schools, but you care deeply about these issues.

Byron Sanders: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val.: Why do you care at this point, right? You've made it through, you've made a positive impact. Many people can say you've done enough.

Andrew: You have another job and you decided to also become a school board member.

Dr. Val.: Of both a higher ed institution and one of the largest school districts in the country. You know? So why do you, why do you still care?

Byron Sanders: Ooh. Now that is an interesting question. You can't unsee things.

Dr. Val.: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: You know, times where I feel most, uh, helpless is when all I can do is sit by and watch. I have to be in the fight. And that's not everybody's ministry. I understand that. Right. And, and it shouldn't be.

But, as you can tell, I get passionate about stuff. And if you don't know, just ask my wife. And, these tangents can go long as you could probably also tell. My, my, my belief is too strong that I don't think that the work that we have been doing is in vain. I actually think that my imagination can become a reality. And one of the things that I feel I have, uh, gifts in is to connect with people, to tell stories that help people understand maybe the root of the issue, and that we can have a systemic and strategic solution to those kinds of things. And that it's not all charts and graphs and that there's soul in it. That is a gift that I have. And I also believe that every gift is an assignment. Every blessing is a responsibility. And…

Dr. Val.: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: …If I would only accept the gift part and not the assignment part, then I feel like I am… going back to that mission… doing Earl Johnson's legacy, a radical disservice.

So that's why I had to get back into it. And I believe that education is not just a space for student achievement in, in how we talk about it. I believe it is a place for identity shaping. I believe it is a place for purpose discovery. I believe it is a place where kids learn how to fight in a positive way and what to fight for. I believe it's a place where kids learn how to love, you know what I mean? And learn how to receive love.

And I know it feels weird to talk about stuff like this when we're talking about large school systems. I get it. But I think precisely because we don't talk about stuff like this and we don't actually incorporate things like purpose and identity into the model, a lot of people miss out on the what, to what end part. The what for part. Why am I here?

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: And when you look at our, our boys of color, when you look at our, our low income communities, many of our young people struggle, obviously because there's an imbalance in resources, right? But one of the most compelling things that I ever saw was that the single greatest predictor on whether a person is going to be able to have positive life outcomes, thriving, escape the cycles of poverty, is whether they felt like they had purpose or not.

Andrew: Mmmm.

Byron Sanders: So often we're like, okay, move from this instructional method to this instructional method. Those things matter because there's, there's results there, right? But honestly, truly, human beings been learning for thousands of years.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: We've been building stuff for thousands of years. Do I believe that the learning matters to me? Do I believe that it's connected to my thriving both today and tomorrow? You can't just simply tell somebody who's living under duress, ‘Hey, keep your head down. Pay attention, and in 12 years, this is going to really, really pay off for you.’

Andrew: That algebra equation you just learned is gonna totally save you right?

Byron Sanders: Bro. I promise you. I promise you. A squared plus B squared equals C squared.

Andrew: Trust me.

Byron Sanders: You see what I'm saying young man?

Andrew: This is gonna get you out. Just give it time.

Byron Sanders: Just give it time, I promise you.

Dr. Val.: Yeah.

Byron Sanders: Yeah. The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. My brother.

Dr. Val.: I haven’t even heard that word since the nineties. Since the nineties. Since the nineties.[everyone laughing]

Byron Sanders: Y'all don't hear me though. Okay. The powerhouse of the cell. What's up? Why any of this matters to me, is, is so, it is, we, we don't do well about the sense making and there's research that suggests that, that is a key part that we're missing at all levels and all socioeconomic levels. I think we would actually have better outcomes and we would see a better culture shift if we actually felt like that was part of learning. It’s gotten a little bit more difficult to do these days because now, um, we are ideologically constrained, especially in Texas and places like it. But there's ways to do it.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: But we gotta bring identity shaping purpose finding into our school models in a material way.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val.: What, so what role would community and specifically interracial communities play in that purpose and identity? In that sense making?

Byron Sanders: Um, the reason why I was able to thrive at Greenhill, which is a private school on the north side of town where it was mostly White people and rich people, and I'm neither, is because of the education and the grounding that I got in my culture and my identity at Adele Turner in Oak Cliff, where I came from.

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: Everyday was Black History Month. Felt like, um, they, they found ways to, to loop our history and culture in positive ways to dang near every assignment. And, um, that stayed with me. And in times where I started to question who I was, all I needed was a little reminder. It was like, no, remember, yes, you are Black and you are smart. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: You know?

Andrew: It would've been easy to fall into that belief based on the messages you're receiving at this largely white and wealthy school without the foundation that was instilled in you.

Byron Sanders: That's right, man. That's it. And so, so community matters a lot because one, that's where people are, who are not your teacher. And I think that's actually really important. It's important to have teachers, but it's important to have those supplemental voices to continually motivate you, encourage you, allow you to see a version of yourself, like a walking billboard of, of something that you could be, that you might not have known before. Right? That exposure, that discovery takes place. So those people matter.

It also matters because then out in community, you get to contextualize the learning that's happening, and that contextualized learning oftentimes involves the backdrop of your culture and your identity. Again, all of this stuff is happening at the same time. So, you know, algebra is algebra. Algebra is super algebra if I understand the references that are in the information right? That's why we bring hip hop in and urban references things. Everybody's like, oh yeah, yeah, I know that one. I'm interested. Let's, let's, you know…

Andrew: Now I see why this matters to me. Now I see why I should care.

Byron Sanders: Engaged, right? And in a, in a country where race and ethnicity has been so ingrained into how we tell our stories, how we show up, how we identify, to de-populate the education space with those markers makes the learning feel inauthentic. And it makes it feel like the children are being deliberately either lied to or told partial truths. Kids pick up on that stuff.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: And in a world where you're having folks say you can't talk about that. Isn't it wild that we can't talk about Black history in an all Black school? It's wild that we can't talk about the Latino contributions to society in like a 99% Latino elementary. And we specifically can't because we're told you don't do that 'cause it makes some people uncomfortable. Who?

Andrew: Right, right.

Byron Sanders: They’re not here to be uncomfortable.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: Who specifically doesn't want me to talk about me? That's how crazy it is that, that this is happening. Right? So that's why we have to have the opportunity to bring culturally proficient pedagogy and culturally proficient curriculum and materials and culturally proficient experiences into our schools. 'Cause otherwise it just feels like you are lying.

Andrew: Right. Right.

Dr. Val.: [Val laughs] I didn't mean to laugh, but it's true. I wanted to ask Andrew a question. I'm just curious, Andrew, do you have any idea why White folks don't want Black folks and Latino folks in their predominantly Black and Latino schools to talk about their own culture and identity?

Andrew: I mean…

Dr. Val.: He gets asked all the White people questions like I…

Byron Sanders: Nah, no, listen.

Andrew: That's why I'm here. That's why I'm here. I mean, some part of it is just like if you teach Black kids Black history, if you teach Latino kids Latino history, you are empowering them to know that they are more powerful than they think they are. That that is like a threat to the power structure that if, if you understand the history, the ways that Black people were crucial to the creation of the country, to where we are right now, then you have to acknowledge that they will continue to be crucial to the ongoing future of the country. And that feels scary.

Byron Sanders: Andrew, why does it, why does it feel scary? That's the part that I actually, because I, because I understand exactly them recognizing that, that we, we feel empowered. Why does that, why does that translate as fear?

Andrew: So, hmm, there's probably an onion here with a lot of, with a lot of layers to peel back on that, I mean, I think one, one piece is, you know, I think White supremacy is based on like the zero sum lie that if somebody else has more, then I will have to have less. That like the way we maintain a hierarchy of human value is by assuming that the pie is fixed. And so if you get more pie, that means I have to have less pie.

I think there is some fear that if you grapple with the history of abuse perpetuated by White folks, it's easy to assume that if, if folks of color get enough power, that there will be some desire for revenge or some desire to like reenact those same power structures back on on White folks. Um…

Dr. Val.: We just trying to mind our business truly.

Andrew: For sure.

Byron Sanders: And that's the part that I, I man, it Val, like, I was like, man, what is it? What will it take for White people to know? And not all White people, y'all know what….

Dr. Val.: Yeah, of course.

Byron Sanders: …to know, we just trying to, we just trying to live, we just trying to mind our business.

Dr. Val.: That's it.

Byron Sanders: Let me be.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val.: That's literally, I'm just trying to run my business. [Val laughing]

Andrew: I think, I think the other thing and, it actually comes back to this, what I was thinking about when you were talking about our sort of like narrow definition of masculinity, that like, as we expanded the definition of femininity, we didn't do anything with the definition of masculinity. I think a similar thing happened as we broadened the possibilities for people of color. We didn't do anything with the definition of Whiteness.

Dr. Val.: Oh….

Andrew: And I think, I think, that there's a real kind of parallel between the story you were telling about masculinity and our, understanding of…

Dr. Val.: Andrew…

Andrew: Whiteness and…

Byron Sanders: I think you onto something.

Andrew: I do think that there's a way in which we have not grappled with what it means to be White in the same way we haven't grappled with what it means to be male as the definition of the things surrounding Whiteness have changed and grown, and I think that makes people really uncomfortable.

Dr. Val.: Wow.

Byron Sanders: So I, I just gotta say one, thank you for, for saying that. And it's, it's kind of when things are kind of sitting right in front of you, uh, and then it clicks one day, you, you just helped, you just helped something click for me because for the longest time, I, I think we've all kind of been in spaces where like, you know, the, the term White people is an erasing term, right? How many times have White people say, uh, I'm, I'm just White.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: Like, you aren’t just White. I mean, you're, you're a living, breathing, sentient human being. You have culture, you have norms, you have cool things that you like to do. There's, there's parts of, you know, go go to some other country and be like, oh, I'm just White. No, you, you will have a distinct flavor.

Dr. Val.: You will. You'll have a distinct flavor.

Andrew: A distinct lack of flavor.

Byron Sanders: You know, but that's the thing. Even that's a flavor. You know what I'm saying? They make rice cakes. [everyone laughing] Some people love those.

Dr. Val.: That is a flavor. That is a flavor. Rice cake has a flavor.

Byron Sanders: It's a texture. It's a texture.

Andrew: More texture than flavor, but sure, yeah.

Byron Sanders: But, but to, but, but to your, to your point though, man. I had not thought about it because you're right. During the sixties, during the fifties.

Dr. Val.: Yeah…

Byron Sanders: It was a growth in the definition of what being a Black American can be.

Dr. Val.: Absolutely.

Byron Sanders: Right? There's a growth in the definition of what a Latino could be. But to then not be able to go through that same exercise on some level. And y'all probably been in these work social equity trainings where you, like you're saying like, name, name, cool things that you like about your culture. And then, you know, Black people started going like, “pa, pa, pa, pa, pa”. And then, uh, the Latinos over here, like pa blah, blah. Then the Korean, and then the White people are like, uh, you know, uh…. [Val laughing]

Andrew: I like, I like all your stuff.

Dr. Val.: This is, no, this is mind blowing. This is, this is really an aha. This is a huge aha, Andrew. This is huge. Yeah.

Byron Sanders: And I, and, and there might be, I'm not saying that there's jealousy, but there's a little bit of like, you know, well, I'm cool too. You are, you are. But…

Andrew: I think that the challenge is, like the creation of Whiteness was created in order to create a hierarchy of human value, like Whiteness at its core is by nature, a dehumanizing project.

And so it's you know, talk about like a healthy White racial identity versus a positive White racial identity. Like Whiteness is a problem. And so it's, it's very hard, I think to kind of thread that needle. Like, how do, how do we sort of like hold onto this idea of a pride and a heritage and a, a tradition of, the vast number of White people who participated in, uh, emancipation, who participated in the Underground Railroad. Like there are people that we can look back on and, and, and fall into without then like reifying the idea of Whiteness. And I think that's like a, that's a tricky thing to do. I don't know that we have great models for it.

And I think that's one of the things similar to the ways we haven't presented great models of masculinity for kids to hold onto. We also haven't presented great ideas of Whiteness, and this is how I think we end up with the kind of the White teenage boy falling down the rabbit hole of everybody's telling you that everything, everybody except you is special and you have nothing to feel special about. And so I'm gonna give you this thing to feel special about, but the thing I'm gonna give you is White supremacy. The thing I'm gonna give you is the KKK, you know, ethnonationalism is this sort of really toxic version of it.

Dr. Val.: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: So, so it, with that being the case, because it is, that is it, that is so on the nose with that being the case, one of the things that I think people who are more progressive don't do particularly well is allow multiple things to be true. Oftentimes I feel like, you know, every damn body gotta be put through a pH balanced purity test. And so I've answered the question, is it even okay to have a favorite president these days? You know, but, but I, one of the ones that I'll cite is George Washington, and then you'll immediately hear George Washington, slave owner, George Washington, hypocrite. George Washington.

And I was like, yes, and George Washington could have been a king. He could have been an emperor. Matter of fact, they wanted him to be. And the colossal amount of self-restraint that it takes for a person to literally be sitting at the top of the mountain and to be able to be the unhinged dictator if he wanted to be, that was possible.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: And it takes a colossal amount of, one, foresight, two, humility, and three, wisdom to say no, not only will I not be, but it is in our best interest to make sure nobody ever is allowed to either.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: This is the model that we're gonna set as the first guy out the gate. That allowed us to have quite a bit of precedent that we could build on that empowered us to ultimately have the kinds of things that allowed the Civil Rights movement to be possible, even under great duress, pushback, and attack. Right? Those things are true. Those things are also true.

Andrew: Right. And he was a slave holder. Andy was a hypocrite. And that is true. Right?

Byron Sanders: And all those things are true, and that's why, on the flip side, we end up deifying a lot of people too when we don't go into some of the nuance of their humanity. You know, if, if we would all embrace just a little bit more humility, and understanding of being able to hold things true at the same time, I think…

Dr. Val.: Mmmm.

Byron Sanders: … it would give White people a better chance to see themselves in a more positive light. Because shame ain't helping no damn body.

Dr. Val.: It’s really not. It's really not. And it's very difficult to see your heroes' shadows. It is. There are many of our folk, Byron, who have lots of shadows that we would like to ignore. Um, and we do.

Andrew: And we do ignore 'em. Yeah. I mean, and I think that's, like, that's part of the problem too, right, is like we, we want either hero, heroes or villains. And if you're, if you've got one flaw nowadays, you, you are a villain regardless.

And then we have to ignore all of the ways that our heroes were also flawed. And then people feel like, I want to be a hero, and as soon as I do something wrong, as soon as I say the wrong thing, as soon as I post the wrong thing, now I'm a villain. And then it's sort of like, well, what, what good is there in trying to be a hero anymore? I may as well just like embrace my villain-ness.

Dr. Val.: Hmm.

Byron Sanders: You know, it's so wild we're all in this work. And I believe that, that you all, believe in restorative justice and all that stuff, and so I believe that, right? And then one time this boy was really mean to my daughter. I was like, man, you better get your, don't you ever come around here no more. You're dead to me, right?

Dr. Val.: Of course. As you should.

Andrew: Yep.

Byron Sanders: Because it got really personal. It's like that was over there. But then when it got real close to me, I was like, nah, nah. And it really wasn't what he did. It really wasn't that bad.

Dr. Val.: How old is your daughter?

Byron Sanders: She's, she just turned 17.

Dr. Val.: Okay. Okay.

Byron Sanders: And I was like, ain't no boy gonna be out here mistreating, or maybe casually ignoring my daughter. [Everyone laughing]

Andrew: Right. Treating slightly less than an ideal, whatever the point is.

Byron Sanders: Slightly less than ideal.

Dr. Val.: Being a 16-year-old boy.

Byron Sanders: Being a 16-year-old boy.

Dr. Val.: You better not…

Andrew: Yep.

Byron Sanders: All that grace and stuff went right out the window as soon as it got… But to that point, I guess that bringing it full circle, right? Like that, that's what happens in real life too. Whenever we're talking about us, things that have to do with me and my identity and my people, you know, everything's cool and, and great until, until it hits home and then I'm forced to actually live out the principle.

Andrew: Right.

Byron Sanders: That gets a lot harder.

Andrew: The thing that, that my Black elementary school, I went to an almost all Black and Brown elementary school. What that gave me was, was the belief that it's not zero sum. Was the belief that a shifting definition of Blackness did not actually threaten me that a country in which, in which people of color are more empowered actually is better for everyone because, because of the relationships that I built, because of the friendships that I had. Because of seeing that, the risk of retribution is not, is not, is not a real thing to be worried about.

That actually like we are all humans. That we actually like crave connection. That we actually want to lift each other up. That like at our, at our base, when we feel supported and when we feel like there is enough that we actually want to lift everybody up. And it's those relationships. And I think that's where the power of school, where the power of education comes in, where the power of, of like meaningfully integrated spaces, not just throwing kids together, but actually like building spaces where kids can, can see their shared humanity. Where kids can find that they are actually more alike than, than different. That that's how we create a generation of people who believe that our country is better if we're all better off.

Byron Sanders: Here's the thing. Waiting for integrated communities, we gonna be waiting for a long, long time, economically integrated communities. I think that we can use our schools as a pathway toward that eventual beautiful, imaginative future, but I think our schools as the only place where anybody has to go for 13 years of their life, this is the opportunity to create those integrated experiences economically and racially.

Dr. Val.: Absolutely.

Byron Sanders: And any strategies that push us further in that direction, is a strategy that that's worth embracing.

Dr. Val.: Andrew and I talk a lot about how our modeling these conversations is really important 'cause you can do these in your affinity groups, but until you do it across difference, it's just theory and good ideas and things that you're reading from books. And so if you do not, practice actually engaging in these conversations with people who think differently from you or have a different perspective or will challenge you on something that you have believed to your core, then you just wingin’ it, you know? And...

Byron Sanders: You out here winging it.

Dr. Val.: It's cute because you can like be a keyboard killer, you know, and talk about how pure you are until the kid comes knocking on the door and it becomes something personal.

And I think what we know to be true specifically around what we're asking our listeners to do is it becomes personal when you decide what school my kids are going to, how much am I actually about that integrated life? How much am I actually about shared resources? And I think that's a lot of what our listeners grapple with because you feel like, I have to give my kid the best opportunities available. And you've been taught that that is not at a predominantly Black or Brown school. And I just heard from you that your experience at your Black and Brown school was necessary for your identity and your wholeness…

Byron Sanders: Yeah.

Dr. Val.: …moving forward.

Byron Sanders: And Val, what happens when you and your Black family, are now having to make a decision about, you know, your beautiful Black child,

Dr. Val.: And Andrew, Andrew excuses it all the time. He is like, look, I can't be mad. I can't be mad.

Byron Sanders: But you know, this is why we gotta get to systemic solutions because we, if we keep asking everybody to be, Martin Luther King and, and to have his moral compass, and this is why I get so mad whenever somebody is like, I made it out. I was like, yeah, you did. How hard was that?

Andrew: Right?

Byron Sanders: 'Cause what you just said sounded very difficult. And, yeah, there's, there's probably like 5% of the human population capable of overcoming all of this stuff that you overcame. You're like, well, I did it. Look at you… your broke leg. You, you done lost a finger.

Dr. Val.: Right.

Byron Sanders: You made it. Yes.

Dr. Val.: One of your eyebrows singed off.

Byron Sanders: One of your eyebrows singed. Good for you. [everyone laughing]

Andrew: Limping…

Byron Sanders: And also…

Andrew: …head in a bandage.

Byron Sanders: …and also, and also everybody should not have to be that strong in order to just thrive.

Dr. Val.: Right.

Andrew: Yeah, for sure. You spent a long time at Big Thought, and as, as far as I understand the, like the organization is focused on kind of before school, after school, in school, creating opportunities for kids, closing the opportunity gap, creative in the arts, in sports, pouring resources into schools with a particular focus, around the creator archetype. Can you talk a little bit about kind of the work of Big Thought and then why creativity was such an important piece of it?

Byron Sanders: Yeah. Big Thought was about these, non-traditional learning spaces. What a wonderful opportunity to use the extra leash that we have. The less rigid, you know, policy-based structure in order to create experiences that build all the skills that we know really, really matter, but are oftentimes not given the elbow room to be flexed, like problem solving, critical thinking, creative expression, teamwork and collaboration. Civics and service engagement, right?

The reason why all of that was so important was because we're in a world where, as y'all have seen it, the skills that are being required in work are radically changing so fast. AI is fundamentally changing the world right in front of our very eyes, right? And it used to be, okay, I'm good at math. So? so is chat GPT.

Andrew: Not as good as chat GPT.

Byron Sanders: So now it's not really a function of do you have the technical skill? The question is, what is your imagination? How can you think creatively about solving a problem? What are the right questions to ask? Right? That stuff that honestly, our model of education has not been particularly adept at targeting, but you know, what helps? Out of school time experiences, non-traditional learning experiences, learning by doing experiences.

That's where you build those skills and we can codify that. We can measure it, and we need to hold ourselves accountable for it. That's what the Creator Archetype was designed to do. We created five different domains of social emotional skills building, academics and artistry, design thinking, digital fluency, civics and service.

And those are the ones we need to be building because quite frankly, we just don't know exactly what the jobs are gonna look like by the time today's fifth grader graduates, shoot, by the time today's 10th grader hits the workforce, and so we have to be giving them those adaptable skills for whatever the dynamic future looks like. That's why Creator Archetype was created.

Andrew: And I think that the creator archetype really spoke to me because one of those domains is academics and arts and, and it's like half of one of the domains is what we spend so much time and energy focused on in our schools, is what we measure schools, is what we hold schools accountable for. And yet you like tell me like, what do we actually need to do for kids? And I look at the creator archetype. I'm like, yes. All of those things. We need kids to know who they are. We need them to have social and emotional skills and a language to be able to communicate with each other,

We need kids to be doing arts. Like we need creativity in the world. We need kids to be generating new ideas because particularly, you know, talk about the advent of AI. You talk about the ways that education and, and, and work is changing, like creativity is not going away. And we have, we have neglected that for so long. You know, digital literacy, like obviously if, if our kids need to learn anything, it's like, how do you actually interact with the ways that our world has been taken over by computers and particularly this idea around service.

You know, like how, how are we then giving back to the world? Because, because we have such a focus on individuality, we have such a focus on what is the education doing for me and not what does my education allow me to do for my community and for my world.

Like, those are the things I want my kids to learn. Those are the things that I want them to come away with. And, we do a tiny little sliver of those in schools. I mean, schools do all of those things when they're doing things well. But the only thing we seem to measure schools on, the only thing we seem to hold schools accountable for, the only way we say to other parents like, this is a good school, this is a bad school, is one tiny sliver of one of those things. Why I really appreciate all the work that the Big Thought did around kind of creating these spaces outside of the traditional classroom.

And I think right now, in this moment where there is so much policy pressure working against those things, there are so many places even in progressive, but certainly you look at places like Florida, you look at places like Texas, what the sort of state level mandates are for classroom time are making those things harder and harder and harder to find. It seems like there's real value in this moment in community coming together to say, our kids are in school for seven hours a day. Where else are they and how do we create spaces where these other things that are actually important to us can happen?

Byron Sanders: Yeah. We really need community right now. We really need community spaces because in the places where you can't talk about who you are, where you come from, your identity and your culture, we can't do that in these buildings. But, you know, who can?

Andrew: The Boys and Girls Club.

Byron Sanders: Grandma, the Boys and Girls Club.

Dr. Val.: Yep.

Byron Sanders: Rec Center right here, or the community center right here? Freedom Schools can happen. So when is, when is an afterschool program, not just an afterschool program? Right now.

Dr. Val.: Yeah.

Byron Sanders: But this would, this basically is, is our entire thesis about how the education system should be anyway. It should be inside, outside, it should be live, it should be community centered, community rooted, and it should be youth driven and youth informed. Bottom line is, if, if we can do that, we'll be able to create the kind of children, then young adult, then, you know, eventually the owners of the system themselves, who knows how important it is for us to advance past kind of this stickiness that we're in right now.

That's the only way it's gonna work, because as much as I am a bit of a radical, I am not going to advocate that our school district does some things that's going to absolutely result in us losing hundreds of millions of dollars. I can't. Our schools are too important and they're too important, not just for learning, but this is where kids eat. This is where they're safe. This is how we make sure that we keep some of our young people outta gangs and stuff like that. We need our schools. And so I'm not gonna do something that's gonna jeopardize that. As the trustee of this institution right now, I can't fight that fight like that. So what I need is help. We need community spaces to pick up the baton.

Dr. Val.: You need that help. And then you need to be Earl Johnson in the system making paths.

Byron Sanders: Amen to that.

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Byron Sanders: that point ain't never gonna change.

Dr. Val.: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Thank you. This has been a beautiful conversation. Your career, the things that you have cared about and worked on and fought for, I think are, are very inspiring. You are clearly a fixer. This positive vision of what you want to be, that you are running towards, I think has, I'm sure, had ripples for many, many people. And, uh, really grateful for you coming on and sharing it, sharing your story with us.

Byron Sanders: Wow.

Dr. Val.: Thank you for saying yes. Literally, he did not hesitate. I didn't, I gave him like zero context. [laughs]

Byron Sanders: Easy.

Andrew: Val asks, you say yes.

Dr. Val.: Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Byron Sanders: Thank you.

[THEME MUSIC]

Andrew: So Val, what'd you think?

Val: You know, there's a lot that resonates with me from this conversation, and I wasn't quite sure where it would go and we went so many different places. But what is sticking with me, is that every gift is an assignment.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: And I think that is something that feels important to elevate for our listeners. Because I don't always believe people believe they have what it takes to contribute to the world in a way that feels meaningful. And if you have the opportunity in your search of who you are and what motivates you and what inspires you and what energizes you, and you recognize there's a gift there, to then see that as a responsibility feels like a green light to do things that you might have been afraid to do before, right. When you felt like you did not have enough to give.

And we joked in the opening about, we couldn't run away from this if we tried. And maybe that's why, maybe we can't, because it is a gift and we see it as a responsibility to provide a platform to have these conversations and, and to model in the best way we know how, the world that we are trying to create. So, I think those words have given me some peace around what it means to show up, how I can show up, um, and to not, for it to not feel like a burden.

Andrew: Yeah. I totally agree and what that makes me think of is also, you know, where he said he takes hope from, which is his imagination. You know, it is easy these days to struggle to find hope. But I think that combination of feeling like, there are gifts that I have, which means that I have a responsibility to do something with them and to get motivated to do something with them requires hope, right?

Like action requires hope. And part of the struggle right now is you know, the feeling of feeling a little, intentional. And to be able to go back is be able to be like okay, like where, where have we come from? What have we already overcome? Who has shed blood and sweat and tears in order to get us to this point? And like Byron said, like, you know, in many ways this is, we are in a crisis in many ways. Things are hard and in the grand scheme of things, it is light work. Like who are we to say wo woe is me. I can't contribute right now.

If we have gifts, we therefore have a responsibility and there is some hope in channeling that into creating a better world. And it may feel like that's a far, a far away place right now in many ways. And, many people have been in further away places and contributed and believed and had hope, and had gifts and, and took that as a responsibility to, try to advance things.

Val: You know, when you mentioned like it seeming like a dark place, I wanna take us directly back to Byron's story and how he met his eventual mentor, Earl Johnson. And so, even in the times of darkness, like there are people that we can look to that can offer a hand in a way that we don't know where that is going to lead, and we also have the ability to be those people as well.

And that right there does give me hope because in his darkest moment, there was someone to say, “Hey, I'm not throwing you away.” Or, we can be in community, or here's how we will hold each other up. You can rely on me to look out for you in this moment. And you are not going to find those people if you stay isolated alone in your house.

Andrew: Yep.

Val: So you have to find ways to connect. I absolutely believe in connecting virtually. So if that's where your community is, great. And I have also, again, always admired this in you, that community that you are building, like in your neighborhood, at your schools. Right. You know, and so because I always worked outside of my immediate neighborhood, it has taken a while to develop that community, but that is also where you will find it so it can feel dark, it feels darker when you're alone. Get out in community because that will give you some of that hope that you are seeking.

Andrew: Yeah, the surefire way to find an Earl Johnson in your life is to try to be an Earl Johnson in somebody else's life. You know, if you feel like you are in need of somebody to believe in you, start by trying to believe in somebody else. As Byron said, like the only way he got another chance was through the grace and the participation and the trust of another person. Going out and finding other people, like you said, you know virtually if that's where it's at. But any way that you can in person, in real life and, and showing people grace and participating in things with people and trusting people is, is the way we build connections. And those connections are what actually create the strength to overcome challenges.

Val: It's easy to get overwhelmed these days, like super easy for me. And what I have done to like counteract that, is to go on a walk. And whenever I'm on a walk, I see trees, I see flowers, I see skies. Even yet, recently, I went for a walk in the rain. I stumbled upon a hashtag that I am going to participate in. Now. I have not done any hashtagging for real in a minute. You know, I, yeah, it's been, it's been years at this point, which sounds wild, but it's, um, bloom scrolling and I was like, you know what? I can add to the bloom scrolling timeline.

Andrew: I love it.

Val: And today, I passed a flower, and in the flower was a little worker bee. And that worker bee was doing that pollination thing and making sure that there were gonna be blooms somewhere else too.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Val: You know? And that's what I'm holding onto and I hope, I hope to hear from our audience like, what is it that is not only giving you hope, but what are you, what are you holding onto that feels real and tangible?

Andrew: Yeah, definitely let us know. We wanna hear that. The other piece from the conversation that, that I've been thinking about a lot is this sort of, you know, this link between, the very narrow definition of masculinity that we still have…

Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: … and the very narrow definition of Whiteness that we still have. And the bell hooks quote that, that Byron mentioned, where she says like, we had a revolution. Men, you know, where's your revolution?

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: You know, we'd love to hear from listeners what sort of resources, who, who you're listening to around this idea of both masculinity and Whiteness, because I do think that is at the root of a lot of the conflict and turmoil we are seeing right now.

Val: In that conversation, like you opened the door in my mind that I hadn't thought about yet, and it was, you know, we were able to apply it both to, to masculinity and Whiteness. And because I am the beneficiary of a Black Pride revolution, of a Woman's Right revolution. Like I feel my own sense of expansion in that. Me expanding, my own sense of self expanding does not squeeze anyone else out. And so I am always curious about why that feels like a threat, you know? Um, and that we have to squeeze people down to have a sense of self. And so if we can, if we can figure out how not to do that, I think that'll go a long way too.

Andrew: Yeah.

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Listeners, how are you thinking about how our definitions of masculinity, our definitions of Whiteness serve to divide us, serve to limit our potential…

Val: Yeah.

Andrew: …and serve to make it harder to connect with people. Shoot us a voice memo, speakpipe.com/integrated schools, or send us an email podcast@integratedschools.org. Just record a voice memo on your phone and email it to us, or just, uh, hit us up on social media at Integrated Schools. We would love to hear how you're grappling with that.

Val: Right. For anybody watching our video today, I have on my favorite Integrated Schools hoodie.

Andrew: That’s right.

Val: Public Schools Save Democracy. You could twin with me and Andrew at any point. You can go to our website. Click on the link that says ‘store’, and you will see multiple options and colors. I always get compliments when I wear this hoodie.

Andrew: That's right.

Val: Also, while you're on our website, go ahead and check out that red donate button because we could use all of the support that we can get in order to make this podcast come to life, we are grateful for your donations.

Andrew: Absolutely. Yes. And if you wanna see Val's shirt and you are just listening, all our episodes now are up on YouTube. We would appreciate it if you'd go over to YouTube and subscribe to the show. Helps the algorithm feed us to more people. Um, there is lots of negativity being fed to people on YouTube, and so the more positivity we can spread, the better you liking and following the show on YouTube would go a long way towards that. We'd be grateful for it.

Val: That's right.

Andrew: Well, Val, as always, thank you for bringing your friends on the show. You never miss. Byron really blew my mind in a lot of ways. It was a great conversation, grateful for it, and grateful to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Val: Until next time.