S11E16 – Advocating for Black Educator Wellness with Asia Lyons

S11E16 - Advocating for Black Educator Wellness with Asia Lyons

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: And I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Advocating for Black Educator Wellness with Asia Lyons.

Dr. Val: I'm super excited about this episode, as a Black educator who I still identify as, and recognizing that our wellness is really important for our families and our students.

Andrew: Yeah. Dr. Asia Lyons is actually a local friend who I know here in Denver and we finally got a chance to have her come on the show.

Her work has really focused on Black educator wellness. She runs a Black educator wellness cohort, h er dissertation work is on racial battle fatigue…

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: …and its impact on not just Black educators, but also their families. And then she hosts a phenomenal podcast that so listen to called The Exit Interview: A Podcast for Black Educators, where she interviews Black teachers who have left education and gives them a chance to tell their story about why they left, about what it was that led them find some career outside of the classroom despite being educators at some point in their careers.

Dr. Val: Yeah, I don't wanna give much away, but Dr. Asia's own personal story is how this came to fruition. I'm always inspired by folks who use their own pain, and then turn around and, and create something that helps someone else.

Andrew: Yeah, The Exit Interview really came about because she left teaching and really wanted a chance to tell her own story. Fought to get an Exit Interview with a superintendent of the district and realized that she was not alone in having that desire to be able to tell her story to be heard. And so through her work with this term that I think is just like, so beautiful as archival justice. She is capturing these of people who maybe didn't have their story listened to, never had a chance to tell their story in the first place, and archiving them for the sake of justice.

Dr. Val: And you just saying that reminds me that as everyday people we can be. Holders of archival justice by listening to people's stories, by believing their experiences, and so it's such a powerful term. I'm glad she introduced it to us.

Andrew: Yeah.Alright, should we take a listen t o Dr Asia?

Dr. Val: I'm looking forward to it.

[THEME MUSIC]

Dr. Asia Lyons: My name is Dr. Asia Lyons. I am the CEO of Lyons Educational Consulting. I am a podcaster. I host and produce The Exit Interview, a Podcast for Black Educators. I'm a mom, a wife, a bird mom, Mr. Prince Charming is my bird. And uh, yeah, I go out in the community and speak about healing from racial battle fatigue, specifically for the betterment of the souls of Black educators.

Andrew: Hmm. You were a classroom teacher before.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I was, 12 years. Yeah.

Andrew: When did you know you wanted to be a teacher?

Dr. Asia Lyons: I went to school originally to be a chemical engineer, because my dad told me that's what I needed to do, right? And I'm like, whatever Dad says, 'cause he's the best, and flunked out of engineering school in this, my second year, was not prepared for, uh any type of college, to be honest. I went to a gifted high school, but what I found was that I was still woefully ill prepared for college.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And so, came back to Detroit and I'm from Detroit. Came back to Detroit and knew that I couldn't just like be at home and just start working. So I went to community college. So there was a community college not far from me and I didn't have a car, so I caught the bus there and signed up to be a business major 'cause I wasn't sure what I wanted to be. And was put in work study at the childcare center at the community college. A nd about a month in, someone said, who worked there, her name is Jennifer. Like, you should be a teacher. Like, you're really good with kids. And that was it. Went home. I was like, oh God, what am I gonna do?

I gotta figure this out. You know, at this time I'm maybe 20. And the next day, went back, changed all my classes over to education classes or pre-education classes. Finished there. And then the next bus stop over was the University of Michigan's Dearborn campus.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I was like, well, I don't have a car. I could just keep catching the bus. And that was it. I was a teacher.

Dr. Val: Awesome.

Andrew: What did you teach? What age kids?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, I taught fourth grade for a year, fifth grade for five years, and sixth grade for six years. And when I taught sixth grade, I taught a math class. And then I also taught towards the end of my career in teaching social justice as a class.

Dr. Val: I love it how, you are like at 20, I need to figure this out. 'Cause that's how I am and I'm way far from 20.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Val: It's amazing how we put that pressure on ourselves to figure that out right then. And I'm thankful that you had someone who saw in you, ‘teacher’, um, and shared that with you. Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. I never saw myself in education at all. I'm not from a family of educators, and the childcare center just seemed like it was fun and they were littles, you know, three to five age, and I really enjoyed it. But yeah, I loved my teaching career so much. I had a great time.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And then you left teaching.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And then I left teaching.

Andrew: Tell us that story.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Oh yeah. So, um, so, like I said, I taught for 12 years in a local school district, and the principals when they hired me said, you're teaching math for three classes, but the other two, you can teach whatever you want.

And so I, my first few years at that middle school, I taught math and sports and financial literacy, math and art, things like that. But then in my 11th year, I decided to teach social justice and social justice class, the big question was like, what happens in our society when humanity is lost? Right? And so, my idea was to teach the first unit and then the students got to vote on the rest of the units for the semester.

And I taught 150 students and very similar topics. Gender equality, supporting our unhoused communities, animal cruelty, race, racism, and anti-racism and some other topics. Totally went fine. It was great. The kids loved it. The family supported it. The… my principal supported it. The second year Trump was elected and everything changed.

So I remember the second year that I was gonna teach social justice, back to school night I could see in the parents' faces that came into my class, they were looking around that it was gonna be, I said to myself, it's gonna be a rough year. I could just, I just knew that they were not gonna be on board with what I was gonna be talking about. I had my protest posters around the, the, um, room. It was just, yeah. And this is a Black woman standing in front of them talking about social justice and I was right.

Andrew: What were the demographics of the school?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, it was about 60% white, 40% kids of color. And, like I said, my families before that, same demographics were totally for it. And again, I had the permission of my principal, but I had a guest speaker come to my class who was talking about loving their Muslim neighbor and what it means to, you know, stand up for others and things like that. And the kids are super excited about her and show their parents like, this is who came to our class. I'm really excited. And the parents just flipped out and I feel like they were just waiting for something, some reason, and they're just like, we don't want our kids learning that.

Dr. Val: Learning what exactly?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Learning about like, loving Muslim people, like race. It was about gender equality, about uh, L-G-B-T-Q communities, and at first, my principal was like holding the line, like, no, this is great. This is fine. And the parents started pulling their kids outta my class. And so I, across the classes that I taught, I had about 17 students whose parents just let them sit in a counselor's office during my class, rather than go to class.

Andrew: Would rather have you learn nothing than learn to love your Muslim neighbors.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. But, you know, if you need an excuse, this is it. My principal ended up paying another teacher extra FTE or extra time to teach that group of kids, that group of White students in a, in a system where we don't have enough money. We just go ahead and put them in a class. And eventually she told me I had to stop teaching social justice altogether.

And when I told my students that like, Hey, this is midyear, like October, you're gonna have to, we're gonna have to change subjects. I'm sorry. They're like, we know why. It’s those families. I'm telling like my first period class, I'm trying to be, you know, make sure I'm nice and neutral, 'cause Lord knows I don't wanna be accused of inciting an issue. But as I'm telling them what's happening, the kids started pulling, like tearing paper out and making little protest posters and they're like taping rulers to the pieces of line paper. And then they started making like a little petition. These are sixth graders, 11 year olds. I'm like, okay,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: They are the best. That's why I love my kids so much.

Dr. Val: They really are.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Um. Then the second period, you know, the same thing. And then between second and third period, I sent an email to the office and I was like, Hey office counselors, everybody on the first floor of security, my students may be upset that this is happening, and they might be pro, I'm telling you there might be protesting. So just kind of prepare for that.

By third period, they were like, we're ready, like we're, it's a go. They protested, they went to the lunchroom. They're, they're mad, they're yelling. They went to the office, they're protesting in front of the principal's office. And I was like, this is amazing. And also, you know…

Andrew: Gonna be bad.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, and my principal ended up putting me on leave that day and she accused me of telling them to protest. Uh, I was on leave for two weeks while they investigated. Now, the year that Trump was elected, Time Magazine had, the person of the year was a protestor, and we'd already been talking about how to stand up for yourself. So I'm like, oh, y'all passed the test.

When I was put on leave was a Friday. On that Monday the district had a board meeting and the news was there and the parents who wanted me kicked out were at the board meeting trying to convince the board to fire me. And the news put that on the news that night, and my students on Tuesday didn't see me come back to work, so they're like, oh, they fired her and they did a walkout and a silent protest. Right.

And so I'm at home and my colleagues are sending me, like grainy photos of kids lying down in front of my classroom. And I, by that, by that year, I taught every kid, like every, yeah, every kid. I had sixth, seventh, and eighth graders walking out of the school. Like control was lost by my principal.

Andrew: Yep.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And when I got back and they found out, actually you didn't tell 'em to do that. I guess they just cared enough about social justice that they did this. And from October until I left in May, my principal, made my life hell. Everything that she could do to make my life miserable, she did it.

The thing that I think sticks out most to me is we have Black History month, of course, every February. And of course, because I was one of the few Black educators in the school, it was a lot of me doing Black History Month. I put posters up from different folks, just about Black history and quotes and things. And I walked in the library and there's like gaps in where the posters were. There was some missing and I asked the librarian like, where's my posters?

And she just looked at me and I emailed the principal. Asked her, what posters did you take down and why? And she said she took down, one of them was a Kaepernick poster because she didn't know as a White woman what Colin Kaepernick had to do with Black history.

Andrew: Wow.

Dr. Val: Dr. Asia, I was already teetering. I was already teetering.

Andrew: You pushed Val off the edge.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Sorry.

Dr. Val: Oh my gosh.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, but it was things like that constantly. And the parents who wanted me fired 'cause I was not fired, just continued to just bother me or come into my classroom and just sit there in my classroom and observe my class.

And so I think around February after Black History Month, I did what I always call the Shawshank Redemption move, which is like one thing at a time back home, like taking this home, I'm taking that home 'cause I'm going, I'm getting free. I'm getting free. [Andrew laughs] And so by the last day of school. I put my laptop in the, you know, we had to put 'em up anyway. Took my ID, threw it in the garbage, and I just never went back.

Dr. Val: Well goddamn.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Andrew: That's a story.

Dr. Asia Lyons: That's the story.

Dr. Val: I'm curious what happened to your students who protested?

Dr. Asia Lyons: When I got back to work two weeks later, they were in class and they were so happy. Like, I protested Mrs. Lyons. I said something, I… they were so excited. It's funny because last summer I had a student who reached out to me who is now in college, who was my student. It's like, I wanna talk to you about being a teacher, you know, since your class I've been speaking up about White supremacy and things like that. So it was really cool for her to say, I remembered that.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: I asked that 'cause I also wanted to know, did, did those parents show up for you in any way throughout the rest of the year?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, that's a really good question. I had parents who with like, to me, advocated, and I had a few that went to the principal, advocated for me. But there's something to be said about the ways that White supremacy like, works in droves. Like they, the folks who hated me had a lot of time on their hands, right?

They were able to just take off and be sitting in my classroom and constantly bothering me. Because they had the permission of the principal.

Dr. Val: Right.

Dr. Asia Lyons: They had the power. And my principal's boss, who was a Black woman also was fine with this behavior. So, yeah, I felt like the parents and community, when they saw me go into my car or whatever, they were definitely like, you know, I appreciate you. I don't know how much that translated to the principal's office, like what she heard or did not hear from the community.

Andrew: You are one Black teacher. Your story, I mean, obviously there are unique elements to it. I'm sure nobody has the exact same story, but it is a, it is a familiar story.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: And to be clear, you didn't leave teaching, you were forced out of it.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. Oh, definitely experience pushout a hundred thousand percent.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Yeah. And obviously you had like poured so much into those kids that they had learned so much. I mean, I think about, what values do you want your kids to learn? Like yeah, I think it's important that they know some math, but if they know that when they see injustice they need to do something about it, I would certainly much rather my kids get that from their school.

And so yeah, like what a tragic loss for those kids, for that community, for that school district, and for, you know, all the kids who came after who didn't get that opportunity, but that kind of inspired your podcast, The Exit Interview. Tell us about the podcast. What, why you started it and what you're hoping to achieve with it.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, you see this big smile on my face? 'Cause I love, I love The Exit Interview. So The Exit Interview: A Podcast for Black Educators came because the summer that I left teaching, I was pushed outta education in that sense, I made the decision that I wanted an exit interview and my school district was not offering those. That wasn't a thing that they did.

So I emailed the superintendent and I said, I want an exit interview. And I just kept emailing him until he responded. And I brought my sheet of paper and I said all the things I had to say about my racialized experience, about the experience of Black educators in his school district, because I knew many of us that were leaving that same year. Not with the expectation that he would change, but that I got this… I get to say my two cents.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I was walking back to my car and I thought, there's so many Black folks who leave education who never share their story, and that's how the podcast started. And so it's what I now know is archival justice work.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: We know that human resources departments, we know that other spaces are not going to share our stories. They're gonna, even if they collect exit interview information, it's quantitative. It's rarely desegregated by race.

So, the podcast is in its fifth season. We are 65 or so episodes in, I've, um, recorded my podcast live at South by Southwest EDU this year. It was really exciting. Thank you.

But yes, that's the work. It's collecting the stories, archiving the stories of Black folks who've left the field of teaching, whether that be higher ed, ECE, school psychs, teachers, therapists, paraprofessionals, so that we can just say that this is our story and this is why we left, and then continue to heal. To be on that journey to healing.

Andrew: That healing piece seems like such a big piece of it. In the episodes I've listened to you often have people who clearly the story is like dying to come out. But for a lot of people, it's like the first time that anybody has asked them about it, the first time that they've had a platform to actually share it.

And there's like a real sort of sense of catharsis in actually just like putting that out. I mean, aside from the sort of like, potential policy implications or what you could do with it at all, like why does it feel important to just have that space for people to speak their truth?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Because we don't often get the opportunity to speak our truth.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: It also is because like you said, folks have been sitting on that story for four or five years.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And so that's the work, it's like laying that space out for them to share their stories, because at that time, they're ready. And for me, it's not about like, I hope human resources, uh, hears this or a union hears this. It is like, I hope you felt good saying that.

Andrew: Mmmmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I hope that you know that I believe you and your, the community of listeners believes you, and that's good enough.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And that you felt heard?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Dr. Val: And seen.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Val: So was, was this what your dissertation was about?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Good question. So my dissertation is on the ways that Black people in education experience racial battle fatigue.

Dr. Val: Got it.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And how it crosses over into our families and communities. And that was off the back of my own experience. Right. And so the podcast happened at the same time that I was going to school.

I knew that at the same time that I was having this Exit Interview experience, I knew that I wanted to research racial battle fatigue. Um, and so it all kind of tied in very closely together around the same time.

Dr. Val: Right. Alright. Talk to us about racial battle fatigue.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, so what racial battle fatigue is a term coined by William Smith. Shout out to him, and it is the amount of time lost coping with racism. Right. And it's the way that our bodies respond to racism.

So racial battle fatigue is not racism. It's just how our bodies respond to it. Our, our mental and our physical. So you have racialized experiences like I did in school. And so then it was, I was unable to sleep. My heart was always beating really fast when I went into school, crying in the car before school, right?

Dr. Val: Sounds like your blood pressure was up.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Blood pressure was up right. Some people are, show signs of resentment, hair loss, hives, uh, like I said, panic attacks, like lots of ways that we're responding. Rehearsing the situations in our mind and thinking over and over about a future racialized experience that we might have like at a parent teacher conference or rehearsing something that already happened. I should have said this. I should have said that.

That's what I was interested in understanding, because for me, that October or September to May, I always tell people it's like, my marriage was on threads, right? I was just not the person I was and it wasn't, it wasn't just impacting me. It was impacting my family and my community. I was not the person I had been before that.

And that's the part of it that I'm adding to the research or I've added to the research is Dr. Smith talks about racial battle fatigue in educators, but I really wanna know, like what happens in the family dynamic too, when we bring that home to our communities, our children, our spouses.

Andrew: You don't leave it at the school, it's not like you experience it at school and then you go home and everything's fine. It's gonna show up in the way that you are a spouse. It's gonna show up in the way that you're a parent. It's gonna show up in the way that you're a sister or a friend or a community member.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yes, yes, exactly. Thank you.

Andrew: Hmm. There's a lot of talk about the recruitment of Black educators. We had Leslie Fenwick and Noliwe Rooks talking about the loss of Black educators and the harm that that caused to the education system, both the harm to those individual educators who lost their jobs, but also the culture of learning and education that, that suffered from that.

And we talked to Sharif El-Mekki about, you know, recruitment efforts, trying to bring more Black teachers into the profession. It seems like a lot of your focus is on what happens when you get there, more on the retention piece than the recruitment piece. What have you learned from The Exit Interview about what it takes to actually, you know, create a place where Black educators not just will show up, but will stay.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. What I've learned is that there's so many different reasons why we leave.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: When I first started the podcast, and I first thought about the research because my mind was thinking about racism. I wasn't thinking about the other ways that, the other reasons why we leave, right? And so this is, it's been illuminating for me. I'll say that one of the reasons why folks leave is because they're not believed. Their stories aren't heard, right? They speak up for children, they speak up for themselves and their colleagues, and they're just not listened to.

Another reason that comes up, particularly around Black women who are mostly the ones that come on the podcast, even though it's for everyone, is misogyny in the workplace, and specifically Black men in leadership above them who have caused harm, right? That's coming up more and more often.

Of course people talk about pay and the pay disparity, and specifically my ECE folks, my early childhood education folks are talking about this pay disparity. Um, as a side note, I'm on a research team for a local university, and we found out that Black early childhood educators in the city of Denver are paid $3 and 58 cents less per hour than their White and Brown counterparts with the same experience. So that's $7,500 a year. And we already know ECE is grossly underpaid.

Dr. Val: That’s significant. Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Which causes racial battle fatigue, which causes on and on. So those are some of the themes that come up from the podcast.

Andrew: 65 stories of educators leaving. I mean, and, and it doesn't seem like you're ever like struggling to find people to, to come tell their stories.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Not at all.

Andrew: There’s plenty more stories to be told.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Unfortunately. And also, I just wanna say too, those same folks, obviously their families were involved.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: They’ve seen the ways that the districts and education institutions have harmed them. So that's a big piece of it too. It's like you said before, Andrew, it's just, it isn't just the educator, the family and community always suffers with them.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Can you tell us one of, one of those stories that sticks out to you of kind of the impact beyond just the educator or just the classroom, but out into the family or the community?

Dr. Asia Lyons: I think about Dr. LaShawn Stitt. So, Dr. LaShawn Stitt was a assistant principal of an all boys school in, on the East Coast. And she talked about in her interview how her principal is a Black man, and he will be sleeping in his office while she was working.

And she went into the office one day and the secretary was slamming the cabinets and things. And she's like, “What's, what are you do? What's going on?”

She, and the secretary, like, points and they open the door and his head is down, and she's like, “He's always sleeping,”

And in that same school year, she said that the janitors took off for, like, four or five days. And so, she was in the hallway mopping in her suit and cleaning bathrooms. And she said that the, the nurse, the school nurse asked her, like, “You don't look good. Lemme check your blood pressure.” And her blood pressure was sky, sky high. And she said “I'm gonna call the ambulance to come and get you.”

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And Dr. Stitts response was, “Wait, I have my son is here at the school. Let me just go to the doctor. I, I, I'll, I'll promise, I'll go get my checkup.” Right? But her mind was on her, how her child was going to get home and who was gonna take care of her child if she went to the hospital, which she should have gone to.

And she ended up telling a story how she got her checkup, blood pressure was high, but also found out that because she hadn't drink, been drinking water (because that's what teachers love to do is not drink water), she actually had to have a procedure for her kidneys.

Andrew: Mm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And so, the cost to the family of time and money impacted her son.

So that's just one example of, like I said, many of folks whose families are impacted by experiencing harm in school systems.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: It's internalized racism, right? It's white supremacy within Black folks. So it's always racism there, present. But we never expected to be an all boys Black, a school for Black and Brown boys for Black excellence. We don't expect to see it there. But more and more I'm seeing, yeah, the more and more I'm seeing the harm to Black women in spaces like that.

Dr. Val: I'm thinking about the put your mask on before you can help any anyone else.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Right? And so, her being unable to care for herself, in a way that still jeopardized all the things that she was trying to protect anyway. And how oftentimes Black women in particular show up that way, right? I'm gonna do all of these things in order to keep my family safe or secure, or the job, or the place running. And it still falls apart!

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Because you have fallen apart, right?

Dr. Asia Lyons: Josephine Ampaw came on the show a little while back and she said in the analogy of the airplane going down and mask, she's like, you have to remember the airplanes going down.

[Val laughs]

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Like, the oxygen doesn't come, the little bag doesn't come down just for fun! [Val and Andrew laugh] The bag is coming down because the plane is crashing!

Andrew: Something has gone wrong.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, yeah! This is not like a little check. Like, no! And when she said that, I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. Because we always say, “Put your mask, put your mask on because the plane is crashing.”

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Asia Lyons: So, let's start with that.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: That just blew up my whole world. Thank you.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, go.

Dr. Val: Thank you.

Dr. Asia Lyons: out to Josephine. She's a, a licensed therapist that, brilliant, brilliant, Black woman.

Dr. Val: I think I'm feeling the tension of needing and wanting Black educators in our schools and recognizing the pain and harm that is often caused, to them.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Val: how do you balance that tension? Do you, do you ever find yourself thinking like, dang, I wish I could have convinced you to stay,

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah. As far as that balance is concerned, beyond the podcast, I co-founded and co-facilitate what's called the Black Educator Wellness Cohort, and the Black Educator Wellness Cohort is a space here in Denver for Black educators, women and non-binary educators for their healing, , who wanna stay in education, but need some space to talk about what it means to be well.

And it's a 10 month cohort that starts in September and it goes through June. Where every month we meet once a month for half a day. We build tools. We create tools to be well and to support our family, and to cry and to laugh and to find joy and liberation, and put words to our feelings and just be on this journey for healing.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And because that cohort exists, then I know that I'm also doing the work of sustaining educators that are still in education.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right. So folks on the Exit Interview, if you've left, I understand. And folks, if you wanna stay, I understand that too.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: so I don't feel this tension between these in my work at the podcast because I have this other work with, the wellness and wellbeing of Black educators, because I still want that to be true, but I don't want people to walk into the space and think everything is just wonderful.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Dr. Asia Lyons: There's this balance, this beautiful balance. Yeah. Beautiful balance of archiving your story on this side. And then how do we make sure that you on this other side are well, are happy, are seen,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: and because the folks in the cohort. Are from multiple districts, right? Then it's like, okay, especially in the state of Colorado with less than a thousand Black educators,

Andrew: say that again. The entire state of Colorado.

Dr. Asia Lyons: the entire state of Colorado, less than a thousand.

Andrew: Black educators? Yep.

Dr. Asia Lyons: So if you see 10 Black educators in a space where we're talking about healing and wellness. It's funny because the cohort is in year three, and I think after this year we can, we can say with our full chest that we've supported 1% of the state's Black educators.

Andrew: What does it look like at either the school level or particularly I'm thinking about, you know, parents, particularly white and privileged parents showing up in school spaces to kind of take this seriously racial battle fatigue as a concept. Seriously. And the idea that, you know, it's, it's not enough to just say, we want Black educators in our school, but we have to like, actually change the experience of being educators. how do we show up better?

Dr. Asia Lyons: That's such a good question. I think that we have to have, make sure that families, white families, families of color too, hold the line and say like, wait, what happened to Dr. Asia? What happened to other, there's too many people. And then start pushing that conversation of where are these folks going?

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Why are our school not retaining Black educators? You just introduced us to the new school psych two years ago, and now she's gone.

Andrew: Right.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And, and, and continually putting that in front of the administration to say, “We know this and this is a problem.” And even though they may not know specifically, it's racial battle fatigue. To even start to say we are not going to just be, like, watching this happen, but we're, we're gonna advocate and say, “This is not okay. Someone's causing harm. There's some harm being caused.”

And I wouldn't suggest families going and finding the educator because people are, can be in a really fragile state, or just like, I don't wanna talk about it! But I would say to continually talk about to administration, to our school boards, that they notice these things are happening. And here's the research as to why this is important to have Black educators and retain them, and then constantly be saying retention and, and let's lessen that recruitment conversation.

Andrew: Mm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Because when we talk about retention, we're talking about the end of harm causing experiences versus pulling out the tablecloth and having a nice shiny brochure and a moving bonus. That's two different conversations.

Dr. Val: We are repeating this moment with reelecting a president.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Val: And there are still Black teachers and other teachers of color who are social justice minded, who are in the classroom right now, who are–

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Dr. Val: –facing things that feel even more difficult because it's such a widespread national movement in every industry–

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yes,

Dr. Val: – to dismantle DEI. What words do you have for them now? What do you want them to know if they can't join your cohort 'cause they're not in Colorado. What is it you want them to know, believe, do, feel?

Dr. Asia Lyons: So the first thing that I would say is there's something to be said about creating healing spaces.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: And being a part of healing spaces. And I don't mean affinity groups that your district puts on.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Um, school district affinity groups don't move the needle because they're not supposed to.

You, they gather, you put some stuff on sticky notes, you eat Qdoba, you leave. And nothing happens. Right? So, like, how do you find, and I don't, I don't want you to create it 'cause that's more labor, But how do we find spaces online or in person that promote our wellness so that we don't feel isolated? I think that's really, it's important to not isolate ourselves when we're experiencing harm or we're burning out. 'Cause racial battle fatigue and burnout are not the same. So just be very clear about that.

But, when we experience these things, we don't want to go into isolation. So it's really important to find community. And that maybe they, folks who are educators because they can experience or understand the nuances of education.

Dr. Smith, when he was on my show, he talked about, you know, it's important to eat well, it's important to to be in nature. It's important to set up your home so that your home is full of Black excellence. And love and, and in Black culture,

We also talk about it's important that as a, as families of Black educators, that we help folks come back to regulation. Because if you're experiencing harm, you're gonna be dysregulated. Then you come home and you're just dumping on your family. So, like, how do families seek supports to make sure that they're there to hold space, but then also to shift from, okay, we're now, we're venting now, what do we do now?

Like, how do we heal? Because that's important too, is that we get our families and communities involved in the healing of our Black educators who are experiencing harm.

Andrew: That makes total sense to me. And,

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Andrew: We’ve also talked about the ways that families and communities are harmed by racial battle fatigue. How do you avoid somebody feeling like, “Oh, crap. Now I'm not, like, getting my family to help me either. I'm failing at school,”

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah!

Andrew: “I’m coming home. Like, not doing a good job at home and my family's not helping me, so, like, I'm doing a bad job at all of this.”

Dr. Asia Lyons: Family therapy is important.

Andrew: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Right? And so, the therapist can teach you, or like, this is, if this person's having this experience going through this loop, this is how we're gonna support.

So that the family has the equipment, they wanna help. And I'm not saying don't tell your family, I'm saying sometimes we don't have the tools and we're also experiencing racial battle fatigue.

Andrew: Secondhand racial battle fatigue.

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah, how do we make sure that our families have the, the tools? Right?

Dr. Val: Mm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: One thing with the, with the cohort that we've been talking about (for cohort four next, starting next year) is that along with the, the folks in the group, we're also going to provide supports and services for the families of those folks in our group.

Andrew: Hmm.

Dr. Asia Lyons: That they don't see like the, this person is leaving them. Right? “Dang. They just doing such a great, look at 'em healing,” and like, leaving them behind. But also having some, some space to, to heal and be well.

Think about it as a community effort, as a family effort, that everyone is figuring out how to support that person. Or for most folks of color who have family of color, we're all figuring it out. So you all benefit from that.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Well, I'm certainly not calling you a college dropout. We'll start with like, it was your gap year. You were like. You had a gap year.

Dr. Asia Lyons: A gap two years!

Dr. Val: [Val chuckles] A gap two years.

Dr. Asia Lyons: A gap two years.

Dr. Val: Before your journey to become Dr. Asia. And it's, I, I feel, um, so grateful that you are in this space and that you are, are loving on educators around the country.

So, thank you.

Dr. Asia Lyons: You are welcome. I love it. It's my life's work. It feels good. It's a, a wild way to come to it, right? But I'm super grateful for the work and that the community supports it and sees the benefits of it, for sure.

Andrew: Yeah, it's beautiful. The work ripples wide and far and, not just, the educators that you're impacting directly, but people getting to tell their story and speak their truth, and then people hearing those stories and,

Dr. Asia Lyons: Yeah.

Andrew: Getting their own sense of healing.

And then you think about all of the families who are positively impacted by that. And then all the students who are positively impacted by that it's important. It's good work. Grateful for you coming on and telling us about it.

Dr. Asia Lyons: I appreciate you.

[THEME MUSIC]

Andrew: So Val, what'd you think?

Dr. Val: So going into this interview, I did not anticipate Dr. Asia's personal story to be such a central feature of the conversation, and yet I couldn't stop listening, and it was just gripping in the worst way! And, we mentioned in the intro that she left education, but we wanna be clear, she was pushed out.

Andrew: Right. Absolutely.

Dr. Val: And part of the reason that she was pushed out is because of her experience with the White parents in that school who, for all intents and purposes, used their privilege and power to apply pressure to her and the principal. So much so that they opted to have their kids learn nothing,

Andrew: Right

Dr. Val: Instead of learning with Dr. Asia. And I'm floored by this choice, and yet it's a choice that White folks have made throughout the course of history. And so, White man, [Val chuckles]

Andrew: Yes?

Dr. Val: Help me understand what, what is going on!

Andrew: Yeah. I mean I I certainly don't know those parents and yet I certainly know that flavor of parent.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And, to me, like, the beauty of the school where my kids are is that they are more likely to get social justice as part of their curriculum.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: They are more likely to have conversations about activism. They're more likely to tap into a view that education is a tool for liberation as a tool to make your communities better.

And, I think particularly for White parents who get uncomfortable thinking about race, thinking about conversations about race, I think it's easy to project that onto our kids. To assume that if I'm uncomfortable my kid is probably gonna be uncomfortable. If the content that my kid is learning is stuff that makes me kind of squirm a little bit in my seat, is making me feel like, “Ooh, like, how am I implicated by this?” It's like a “natural” response to that, to say “How do I protect my kid from that?” And so,

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: You know, the, the ways that we have gone about that as White folks in our education system most often is to have control over what the curriculum actually is.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: What are the school books teaching? You know, what classes are on offer? And in the events where we come up against a spot where that's not possible, it's not surprising to me that folks then opt for nothing rather than that thing that they think might make their kid uncomfortable. That thing that they think might somehow “cause harm” to their kid, without recognizing the you know like all the potential that comes from a space like that.

Dr. Val: Yeah, that I was deeply disappointed, if I'm honest by, by that behavior. And I was deeply disappointed in the administration who felt pressured to make that decision to put Dr. Asia on leave.

I'm a parent so I can empathize with being afraid of something for my child, right? For me, that's not race.

Andrew: Right

Dr. Val: But I, I can understand that, that deep seated fear that your child is going to be harmed in some way in trying to protect them.

But I wanna invite our listeners, to check out the episode with Susan and Elias titled Gratitude and Validation One Family's Journey Through Integrated Schools, because what you had in that instance was a young, White male who checked all of the privileged boxes that he, and he would tell you this himself, who understood the value of being in that place and learning about others and learning to, to love and appreciate your neighbors, even when they're different.

And so, I think that's the root of my disappointment because what was being taught (and we've talked about this a lot in the last couple episodes) was about love.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: What was being taught was about love and justice for all. And justice for all is what we claim to be about in this particular country.

And so, I don't know, Andrew, if I'm being super honest, how we win together if folks are so threatened by that particular brand of teaching and learning.

Andrew: Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Actually together if we're in that mindset and the hope is that you create more kids like Elias who is never gonna find himself in that position. Who’s not gonna worry about his kids, because he's going to have lived it himself. Not that he will ignore the potential discomfort that comes from being in cross-racial conversations Like, it's not that it's always easy.

Dr. Val: No.

Andrew: It's never uncomfortable, it's not that you never say something you wish you didn't say. It's not that you never come to a disagreement that you can't really resolve interpersonally because there are these structural factors at play. But it's the, like, comfort with discomfort. It's it's the learning to be okay with being uncomfortable.

And I think we spend so much time catering to White comfort in this country. I think our education system spends so much time catering to White comfort, and you know, there’s obviously a cost to Black teachers.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Andrew: Right? Dr Asia told us all about the costs. Not just to Black teachers, but also to their families. To their spouses, to their kids, to their loved ones.

But there's a to everybody. There's a cost to White kids by never giving us the tools and to be comfortable with discomfort. To recognize that, like Dr. Muhammad said last episode, you know like it's, it's through the discomfort that we have the potential to grow.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: It is in those moments of discomfort that our biggest growth and our biggest potential comes. And like, you see that clearly in Dr. Asia's story, right? Because the students that she had taught the year before knew how to advocate.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Knew how to protest. Knew–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: – to lie down protest in front of her classroom door because they had learned these skills from her. And not that she said “Go out and do this protest for me.” but she had given them a skill set a way to express themselves. Tools with which to advocate for themselves through education, which is like, the ultimate goal if you ask me of what we should be doing with education! And, yeah.

Dr. Val: You know, the first thing that would happen if I got a call from the principal saying my kid was protesting in this instance is I'm like, “Alright, let's go to dinner! Good job! So proud of you!”

Andrew: So, my youngest we just she's going to sixth grade next year and they sent out a parent handbook and you had to, like, agree to a number of things. Sit down with your kid and talk through these things And one one of them, I, I think it was unintentionally worded this way.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: But it basically said “My kid will not participate in any non-school sanctioned protests.” And, and, and I, I refuse to sign it.

Dr. Val: Alright. Look at you. Look at you. We'll get our bail money for our kids.

Andrew: Yeah, so if you could join our Patreon!

Dr. Val: That's right!

Andrew: Gotta get my kid outta jail!

[Laughter]

Dr. Val: Gotta get Andrew’s kids outta jail.

And so, thinking about Elias, and the students that she taught, who decided to take it upon themselves based on what they learned, to stand up and advocate for the teacher that they loved, and they felt had done no wrong, that was because they had Dr. Asia, right?

And something else that struck me in her story is that once she was out of the building, out of that position, there was no other person in that building that could do that work. In that same way.

So Dr. Asia was the holder of this knowledge and when she came back and she saw that her posters had been taken down, she recognized that she had a special job in the school, in addition to her regular teaching load, right? Of math and social justice.

And I'm flabbergasted because so much was lost in her exit from that school.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And so that, that future that you talk about where even getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, it did not seem there was a, a group of people who were ready to step into that void, and that is, that's just heartbreaking.

Andrew: Yeah. It speaks to me of the role of White parents in any school community, but especially in integrating school communities.

Dr. Val: Hmm.

Andrew: That we have to show up and we have to show up in support of justice. Like Dr Asia was saying, like, “Hey, where'd that Black teacher go?”

Dr. Val: Right. We're that Black counselor, right?

Andrew: Why aren't they here anymore?

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And ask the questions and make sure. Because, you know, her example is just one example and it's certainly something that I'm sure many, many people are familiar with. That a small handful of, you know, 17 kids got pulled from her class, right? We're talking about, you know, at most 35 White parents in a large school had the ability to totally shift what the administration prioritized, and what the kids ended up learning. And we can lament the fact that that is true, and I wish that her administration had felt more empowered to not cave to those parents.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: I wish that there had been somebody who had stood up for her more. And as White parents showing up in those spaces, we have to recognize that that power is real. As much as we would like it to not be real, we can't just sit back and say “Well, I wish that the school system wouldn't cater my, to my whims.” And say like, “Okay it's going to, so how do I show up in a way that signifies a value of justice?” How do I show up in a way that says “This principal is not gonna have to answer to me if my kids learn social justice, but this principal is gonna have to answer to me if the three Black teachers aren't here next year.” This principal is gonna have to answer to me if when we're hiring a, hiring a, secondary next year there's not a Black candidate in that, you know.

We have to show up in a way that leads with values of justice, such that the ways that our influence in school systems shows up naturally–

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: –can be more likely to show up for good.

Dr. Val: Yeah. I was just thinking that the justice seeking parents have to be as persistent.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: And so, Dr. Asia mentioned that there were parents who spoke to the principal who valued her being there. But clearly there was a level of persistence to getting her out.

And, you know, I, I got, I, I sunk in my feelings for a little bit when you started talking about the power of the parents, of those 17 students who were out. And how you can have an equal number of parents who are fighting for Dr. Asia, and it still not mean anything if we don't look a certain way, or if we don't have the right connections, and to dismiss an equally passionate group.

Andrew: Yeah.

Dr. Val: Yeah. It's a, it's a complete dismissal. Is there a scenario where we could bring all parties together and actually, like, talk about what is happening, to try to do some restorative justice stuff?

Yeah, absolutely. Like, what is the actual problem here with this curriculum?

Andrew: How do I assuage your fears? How do I acknowledge that it is reasonable to be concerned for your kid? It is reasonable to have fears.

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: We want to know that our kids are safe and that they're in this bond, and that applies for all of our kids.

Dr. Val: Right.

Andrew: Like, all of our kids deserve that. And I mean, I think that is the potential that exists in public schools.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: It’s like, those are conversations we have to have as a country.

Dr. Val: Right, right.

Andrew: To figure out what are the stories we tell and how do we tell them? How do we acknowledge hard truths while also leaving space for people to acknowledge past harms and not be consumed by guilt about them?

And I think the only way we do that is together.

Dr. Val: That's it.

Andrew: And our schools are an opportunity for a space to practice in little mini ways in doing that together.

Dr. Val: Yeah. There was many missed opportunities in that. And the more I think about it, the more I'm just deeply disappointed.

However, Dr. Asia did not miss the opportunity to be a place of healing for other Black educators. And she used that pain and created with it, right? Created a space where other Black educators in particular could come and, and tell their stories about why they left the field.

Andrew: Finding spaces in education where there is a focus on healing.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: Probably finding spaces in our lives in general where we are all focused on healing, where we are all focused on wellness, is important work.

Dr. Val: And, and Dr. Asia just looked at the facts, right? Y'all have like five Black teachers in all of Colorado, apparently. Okay? And,

Andrew: Less than 1,000 Black teachers. It's wild.

Dr. Val: And she felt like “I can grab hold of a thousand Black teachers. I can find ways to support them,” right? And I think that is so courageous and so powerful. You know, a powerful way of turning your pain into something positive that outlasts the pain that, that you felt.

And I want us to draw inspiration from Dr. Asia as a model of what we can do with our pain. When we are tuned into what we need and we use that to, to create the spaces. And so, the whole time she was talking, I was thinking about Clear The Air. So Clear The Air was an online group that I founded back in 2016, because I was looking for a community of educators who cared about these things that I cared about, and wanted to learn deeply about the intersections of race and education and, and justice. And we could just figure it out together, right?

The same goes for you here at the Integrated Schools Podcast. Right? You were on the journey already and you wanted to create something to find community, to help be a part of a community.

And so, I'm asking all of our listeners to, to understand that need, and, and try to create as a result of that need that you feel, because you will find yourself within a community that also needs the same thing.

Andrew: Yes. Listeners, channel your pain into something productive, something positive. Something that builds community, that brings people in, that gives them a space to tell their stories. To feel heard, to feel seen.

Dr. Val: Mm-hmm.

Andrew: And only good things can come of that, I think.

Dr. Val: Only good things. Only good things.

Andrew: And we wanna hear about it! So speaking of sharing your story, we want to hear your stories. Archive them for justice.

Dr. Val: That's right.

Andrew: Send us a voice memo speakpipe.com/integratedschools. Go to our website integratedschools.org and click on the “Leave us a us a voicemail” button. Or just shoot us an email podcast@integratedschools.org. We want to hear your stories

Dr. Val: That's right. And while you're on the website leaving a voice memo, we would also like you to hit that red “donate” button as Andrew's kids are gonna be protesting and will need to be bailed out. [Laughter]

But truly, truly, all of your gifts help us sustain this podcast, and we are grateful for all that you can give!

Andrew: Absolutely. You can also join our Patreon: patreon.com/integratedschools. Another great way to show support and also find some community in that space.

Dr. Val: And don't forget to listen and share this episode with others, and talk about it. That all matters.

Andrew: For sure. Val, it is an honor for me to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.