S8E5 – Between We and They – Part 5 (Re-release)

Andrew: Welcome to the Integrated Schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

Dr. Val: I'm Val, a Black mom from North Carolina.

Andrew: And this is Part Five of our re-release of Between We and They. It's the final episode in the series from back in 2019. And if you haven't heard the other episodes, go back and listen to them first, then come back and rejoin this one.

Dr. Val: Also, you get bonus conversation from Andrew and I as we really dig into our thinking around the episode and what we learned, so please stick around until the end.

Andrew: Absolutely. Enjoy!

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ANDREW: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast, I’m Andrew, a White dad in Denver.

COURTNEY: And I’m Courtney, a White mom from Los Angeles. …

ANDREW: This is the final episode of, “Between We and They: A School Integration Story”, and it’s a bit of an epilogue.

COURTNEY: I caught up with Beth recently, as her second year at their new school was starting to see how she was doing. Her district - like many urban districts - is confronting declining enrollment, and beginning talks about school closure, school consolidation, and a possible redrawing of boundaries.

ANDREW: But first, Beth saw some things over the summer that made her think that White / privileged parents are starting to think and talk about the school as a Hidden Gem - a school that their crowd hasn’t discovered YET, but that once they do, they may flock to. And this concerns her...

HIDDEN GEM

BETH: Oh, my God, I hate to even say it that my girls school might be a “hidden gem.” God. It kills me to say that, and I worried, and I wondered about it for the whole first year. I just finally faced that fact.

ANDREW: Beth worries that she inadvertently enrolled her daughters in an anomaly -- a “good” school that just happens to be poorly rated. It’s a funny thing to feel BAD that a school is GOOD -- that it is a “gem”, hidden or otherwise. Beth isn’t feeling guilty about taking spots from other children; her school is under-enrolled. And she certainly isn’t upset about the school actually being GOOD -- she is grateful. It’s just the implications for the future…

BETH: There was a post last week, and this is what got me going on this… There is a parent there -- I believe she's White, I don't know who she is -- but she talked about, she just talked it up. Um, I don't know that she used the expression hidden gem, but she really talked it up. Principal’s amazing. The teachers are great. It's been wonderful for my kid and, you know, and as soon as privileged parents/ White parents hear more about it. These are not her words, but basically the message I got was, when privileged parents hear about this, there will be an influx of parents. Right now there is a trickle of White privilege parents but there will be an influx as soon as more parents hear about it. And so I just feel like a fraud and just kind of horribly guilty if I am the one who's leading the charge to gentrify this school. Like Oh my God, it kinda makes me sick to think about that..

COURTNEY: Schools that get marked as “hidden gems” often see that massive “influx of White and/or privileged families” that the social media poster was excited for. Beth, having attended a school made up of mostly White and/or privileged families, sees danger in that. Danger to the existing school community, danger to the culture and values of the school, and danger that, once a school’s reputation changes, the demographics can very quickly change as well. And she could find herself holding on to a resource - a seat at that school - that becomes something people are trying to hoard.

BETH: I just thought, you know what? If I'm the first one to gentrify this school that I absolutely will take responsibility for all those gem-collecting White people who come after me I feel like my responsibility is to the school and the school community. And so I don't know how to say this diplomatically, but to take responsibility for the White and privileged people who come after me. Work with them, You know, like you're here now, let's let's be here responsibly. Let's not try to take over the PTA. Wait a minute. There's three of you White people who want to be the on the PTA Board? No, no, no. We don't do that here. You know what you mean? Like so speak up about that. Like that is where I feel like then I'm gonna start to become more and more active, you know, cause right now I want to support the school. You know, I'm not here to like, direct it so my responsibility, I feel like will be to tend to the privileged people who come and want to take over and think this is not running right and running well and should be this and should be that and let's start this and let's do that. You know, like that's gonna be my quote-unquote job. That's how I see it. So if if I I'm starting this wave of gentrification like so be it, I'll accept that. But, you know, at least I gotta try to do this better, or in a just way.

ANDREW: Beth’s school needs more students, and if some portion of those arriving bring more privilege with them, then that could push back on the concentration of vulnerability that exists in her school. But how those people show up matters, and Beth feels a need to protect her school -- protect it from the insidious, often well-meaning ways that new White or privileged families can take over a school. A takeover that reorients the power dynamics, and remakes the school culture in a White image of what a “good” school is. Her under-enrolled school needs more community members, it doesn’t need more saviors.

DISTRICT + closing schools

COURTNEY: Beth spent last year keeping a low profile at her daughters’ school, trying to minimize the impacts that her privilege brings. Being in this school has given her a first hand view of many of the inequities of our educational system, and so she finds herself channeling much of her energy at the district level - at the policies that have created and support these inequities. Partnering and getting involved with advocacy groups of color, she is now one of many people who are talking about the disparities between schools. As her district begins considering what to do about declining enrollment, this feels like a more comfortable way for Beth to get involved.

BETH: I mean, I think because I have a different investment in, in the schools now, I have been drawn into, felt compelled to, and, I've taken an interest in getting involved in the school district. And so what's going on here -- and I think it’s not unique to our district -- is that we're losing kids: to other districts, displacement, gentrification, charter schools, and therefore the district has taken on this process of investigating, figuring out how to close schools.

So our school is, I think, the least-enrolled elementary school in the whole district. So it is under consideration for closure and/or consolidation. So this may directly affect us. It's significant to note that our school has the highest, if not one of the highest percentages and, and number of African-American students and it is the least-enrolled school in our district. And so it only makes sense to close those under-enrolled schools.

ANDREW: It’s not just her school, but several schools on the “bad” side of town that are being considered for closure or consolidation.

BETH: And so I've joined other people in the district, other parents, community members in the district who do not want just these schools to close. We believe that we need to know our history and how the schools got this way was no accident. And the burden of school closures should not fall on the, the Black and Brown kids and the kids living in poverty. I just have become a little more involved in attending and speaking at, speaking publicly at school board meetings, joining groups and participating in groups, evening meetings and strategizing, you know, doing what I can. I participate as an active listener a lot. When I can speak up, I try to. it just feels like an injustice to close those schools without acknowledging and understanding how they got to be that way.

COURTNEY: Beth’s district was engaged in community conversations as part of their efforts. She attended two of these meetings in her White and privileged neighborhood at the end of the last school year.

BETH: I just wanted to hear how people were considering this the school closure process and how it might impact them and just, just hear what the community was saying. And I had an intention to say something because I anticipated the message coming from the White and more privileged people. So I kind of prepared some ideas, talking points. And I went to the first meeting expecting there to be about 20 people there. And this was in an elementary school library that was packed with I'm guessing 150 parents who were just irate at the idea that the that the school district would consider busing their children across town. Now, keep in mind that nobody had even mentioned busing. But somehow we're gonna start talking about busing.

Their argument is like our school is functioning really well. We are at capacity. We're full. Why would they consider closing our school? Why would who would we merge with who we consolidate with? And if they do consider closing our school and busing our kids to the other side of town? Well, no, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna leave. And so the comments that I heard were horrifying. Honestly...

And at certain, a couple of points during this first meeting, it felt, the parents felt like an angry mob. You know, raising their hand, but shouting at the same time, “let me know when the district makes the decision because I need to start saving money now for private school.” Just all kinds of comments. I made a decision to not say anything, cause these parents scared me. I didn't know any of them, but they knew each other. So you’d have a comment about busing and “we’re not gonna do this, why would you shut our school down.” And then it would be like an uproar of applause. And, and “Yeah, that’s right!” And it just felt like and angry mob at some point.

So… I just kind of observed with my my jaw on the ground and left there really kind of shaken like. And I still feel like I don't even have words for, but I just felt like was Is this 1960? Was I back in 1955? Like, yeah, I guess it's one thing to sort of read about it and see the videos and but to be witness and to feel the energy in the room, it just felt horrifying to me, it really kinda shook me.

ANDREW: She was horrified by the vitriol, and the anger. Some of it felt explicitly racist, but, perhaps the scarier part was the less explicit, but no less dangerous rhetoric.

BETH:. It was a lot of coded language. “Their school, if their school is the problem, why don’t they fix their school, our schools are fine.” Um, And then you have the more, you know, like, veiled comments.” Like, if we have to go to another school, guys like just, you know, will band together. We'll make the school better. We make it what it is.” You know, it was just like, ugh, because that's supposed to be a better way to look at this? So no, it was just a lot of, veiled racism: us and them, their school.

And here's the thing that I just, was clearly lost on everybody. Like, these are White parents who I think for the most part, we're not bused when they were kids or teenagers, they were not bused. It was the Black and Brown kids on the other side of town, the Black and Brown kids’ school on the other side of town that were shut. Those schools were shuttered, and the kids in the predominantly Black and Brown communities were bused to the White schools and were made to feel unwelcome and had to enter hostile environments with teachers who did not reflect their culture and their language at the very least. Never mind the the race of the straight up racism that they encountered here. Something was just so profoundly missing from this conversation. It was just so jarring to me. It just didn't feel rooted in reality that that's how I kind of left this, these meetings. Like this is we're not even they're not even operating in the same reality.

ANDREW: The reality that allowed the parents at these meetings to say these things and applaud others who say these things -- is a reality in which segregated lives are the norm - in which “we” refers to a narrow sliver of people sharing our bubble -- the bubble that shields us from truly understanding and caring about what happens to “them”.

11.36 BETH: It really kind of hit me hard. And I don't I don't mean to sound naive about it, but I feel like maybe a a part of part of me felt like slapped in the face or just kind of sucker-punched with this meeting. Like it really affected me. I felt, like, kind of on the verge of tears. And it was It wasn't just sad tears -- it was just horrified and outraged and just kind of overwhelmed with feeling ,with emotion. Felt kind of hopeless. Yeah, really felt kind of hopeless.

And honestly, I'm thinking about the third graders that I have been working with all year. You know, like these parents, these White/privileged parents are talking about kids that I know and I care about. That's who they're talking about. How dare they? How dare they? They don't know these kids. And I, goodness, I don't know these kids either. But I feel a connection to them, and they’re bright and they have potential and they are working their asses off. And, you know, like, how dare these parents speak like that about those quote unquote those kids? You know, I felt I just felt kind of enraged about that.

They are talking about my kids, and they are talking about my family and they're talking about my school and kids that I adore, quite frankly. They're talking about my kid’s school that they have never looked at in a photograph, nevermind walked in there to see just see what's happening in there. Yeah, I just yeah, I just thought like the nerve of them. So just it's just that I had such a strong emotional response in these meetings that I attended. Um, and I even feel it now. My heart is racing. I feel like a little bit lightheaded. It just like I just feel the, the -- all the emotion kind of rushing again.

COURTNEY: Being on the inside of their new school gave names, faces, personalities, hopes, dreams to what the White and privileged parents were denigrating. Those meetings were unsettling, demoralizing, infuriating… And they left Beth questioning the value of pursuing more integration at the policy level.

BETH: So, so I had a few reactions, you know, personal reactions. And one was, like: oh my goodness, how on earth can I sleep at night advocating for integration in this city or wanting integration in this city? I would never want to send Black and Brown kids to this White/privileged school. I didn't even want my Brown wealthy kids to be in the school with those kids. So I just felt like what am I doing? How can I do this work? And I'm not saying I was having a significant impact. I don't want to overblow my importance in what I whatever I was quote-unquote doing in the district. I just felt like I needed to back off and kind of reassess.

So, in some ways, I absolutely understand why the parents on the other side - Hell, no, they don't want to integrate their kids. Hell, no. They don't want to send their kids to these schools over here. Absolutely. I absolutely 100% support that idea and their conviction. Like we are not sending our kids to that school. They're gonna be treated hostilely, disciplined unfairly. They're gonna be perceived as criminal and older than they are and hostile. You know, all these things, all those stereotypes, That's how, how those Black and Brown kids are gonna be perceived and hell, no, they're not gonna want to send their kids there.

And it just sort of got me looking at this and from a from a kind of deeper from in a deeper way. And that is like these two very entrenched positions, neither one wants to school their kids with the other. And one group, the White privileged group, they don't want to do that out of fear. And that fear is not based in reality. You know, what I identify as fear and hysteria is just simply straight up racism on the part of White people. I think these people don’t even feel like they’re being racist or holding racist beliefs, but ultimately it’s not about their intention, it’s about the impact – always— of what they say,, of how they say it, and the way it lands.

And the other group, the Black and Brown group they don't want to do you know -- again, I'm speaking in generalities and I don't know, really,I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but this is how I started to see this, but they don't want to integrate their kids, they don't want their kids to go to school on the other side of town as well. But their fears are based in reality and based in experience -- their own experience. And that’s true.

ANDREW: Beth has upended her family life, her social world (and added hours of driving to her day) for the sake of NOT supporting segregation. She has spent the past few years feeling appalled at the resource hoarding at their old school -- the opportunity monopolies that are made for and by White and privileged families and that continue to benefit them. She has spent the past 18 months thinking of little else. She has invested her family in this. But through this investment, Beth has come to see more nuance, and she finds herself starting to speak up - worrying less about avoiding offense, and more about advocating for justice. she also finds herself questioning if she can responsibly BE an advocate for integration . . . but what is the other option?

BETH: And I feel like as a mixed person, you know, in a mixed family with multi-ethnic kids, like, I kind of feel like, how can I advocate for the separation of people? Where would we be? You know, it's almost like this existential crisis like, where would we be? Where would my girls be? Because they don't fit in one side and they don't fit in the other. So where would we be? So it's almost like integration like this, the way I think about this is like I am trying to create a space for me, somebody who's not Black or White, not Brown or White. You know, like somebody trying to create a space for me and trying to create a space for my family and for my girls, you know, in this very polarized city, very polarized issue.

COURTNEY: Beth understands a little of why some Black or Brown parents do not support school desegregation -- it has often been so brutal for their families. But she also believes that integration is how her mixed-race family can fit into her city, and into America. Holding these beliefs at the same time is no easy task. She is feeling the tension between desegregation and integration.

ANDREW: The efforts in her city and the ways in which they are being discussed are about desegregation - the moving of bodies, a focus on numbers, and the continuation of existing power structures,... and this leaves Beth feeling uncertain about their value, at least in the short term. But she does remain steadfast in the belief that true integration - a focus on creating new forms of shared power, of finding shared humanity through being in community - is imperative --not colonization, not gentrification but meaningful integration. And to achieve that, we can’t go about it in the ways that we have in the past…

BETH: I mean, I feel like it needs absolutely needs to be White and privileged people stepping up, really stepping up, doing the work, having the tools to enter schools that they would not choose. I think it's really time for us/those people to do that work.. and to do it well and to do it right and to keep doing it after they make mistakes -- after we make mistakes. Just be there, show up and make an effort every single day. Make an effort to belong to be a part of the community, not take it over, not run it the way you think it should be run -- to just be there and try to build some bridges and have some relationships with people.

Because for generations it's been the opposite, White and privileged people fighting integration, fighting going to a different school, a Black and Brown school. Doing it so poorly, acting hostilely and violently towards the Black and Brown kids who do come to their schools like, Yeah, it's it's a gross understatement to say there's been a breach and it's up to the one who made that breach, who caused the disruption to fix it. So it really is up to us to fix it, to repair it, to do the work, to build the trust, to repair it.

In order to fix this, I feel like White and privileged people need to listen and we need to be in community with, and partner with, and follow the, the existing Black and Brown community and families who are already at this school – and who have already been doing the work of, of fighting for their kids. And I think that when we, we enter these schools we need to be humble. And this is not about saving other people or other communities and this is not the magic of my privileged kids. This is not about imposing our agenda and our privilege, our White-normed beliefs onto this school that we’re entering. And hopefully if we can do this better, um, that we can build a new understanding of what community means.

It’s going to take a lot of time because there are many, many reasons why Black and Brown communities should not trust us. Uh, we’ve given them generations of examples and, uh, they have very good reasons to not trust us. So it’s gonna take time for us to work to build trust.

And that's generational work. I don't, It's not gonna be like “Oh, by the time my girls are done with elementary school, it'll be better. It'll be so much better.” It really is generational work. I see that. There's no other way around it. This we have to do the work now because we've created the damage. We really have.

I mean, we’re in this together. We live in the same city, we’re in the same school, we, we’re in the same country. It’s about building a better society, building a better community, building a stronger community and society.

OUTRO

COURTNEY: This entire experience -- from growing more and more uncomfortable at the former school, to making the move to the new school, to getting involved with the district -- it’s been one of reshaping community… re-forging how Beth sees her family belonging -- or not -- in her city. It has been a profound shift between WE and THEY.

ANDREW: Living in a largely White and privileged neighborhood, Beth and her family felt, for the most part, that they “belonged” there. The girls had friends, Beth had friends, they had a community. And the fact that they were a mixed-Asian family didn’t seem to matter… at least not too much.

But the disparities between the schools in her district and the opportunity hoarding that she saw at her daughters’ school grew insufferable. She saw, how the parenting around her was creating a sense of entitlement in her girls, that they “deserved” all the extras that kids across town didn’t have access to. Beth began to feel like she really didn’t fit in with this community and that she wasn’t so sure she wanted to... She began to feel a little less WE-ness with her neighbors.

COURTNEY: After the Ferguson riots and the 2016 elections, she started to really grapple with how America values -- or doesn’t -- the people who live here. The past few years have only added to her belief that the way we define who belongs -- who WE are -- is intolerably, oppressively narrow… and it has monstrous consequences. It is this thinking that has led us to be increasingly divided and segregated. And being in a “bubble” grants us distance from the effect of it on a daily basis. Being in a bubble limits our WE.

One place where Beth felt that she could do something was in the choice her family made around school. She didn’t delude herself that she would be curing racism in the US but she could at least not support segregation - not support opportunity hoarding. Switching to the school across the interstate was a chance to build a different kind of WE, for their family now and especially for the girls as they become adults…

ANDREW: At the new school, Beth found herself IN a community that she did not at all feel OF. At the beginning of the year, she referred to the PTA parents as “them”, she felt pity for the financial resources “they” didn’t have. She noticed the schools’ different rules, different rhythms, different ways. Beth couldn’t help but compare the old school and the new school. She focused on the differences as a way to understand the decision she made.

And while this was an important step in Beth’s understanding of her old school, her new school, and herself, much like pity, she ultimately found the focus on differences was distancing. Centering her own experience in an attempt to understand others couldn’t get her all the way to ‘being in community.’

COURTNEY: She couldn’t ignore the differences - pretend that we are all the same - and erase or minimize the real ways in which her life on the other side of the interstate was different. But having acknowledged the differences, she is now learning to find a way through them, to appreciate the new school on it’s own terms -- to find the joy in what the community is -- all the messy, complicated, wonderful things that go along with being with other people.. This felt like a step beyond “fitting in” to actually belonging - not only recognizing the ways we are different, but seeing how those pale in comparison to all the ways we are alike. This finding of shared humanity led Beth to a much broader and more inclusive WE.

ANDREW: Through the relationships she was making, she found herself caring for individuals and for the school much differently than she had at first. Pity slowly gave way to empathy. THEY started to feel a little more like WE.

But while she worked to build relationships at the new school, she was also losing them at the old one. Her decision to change schools was met with a deafening silence from her neighbors. This was painful for Beth and she found herself wanting distance. “They” no longer really felt like her community - her “we”.

COURTNEY: Throughout the year, Beth wondered if her mixed-race identity made integrating any easier. She was used to ambiguous WE's - she even found some comfort in the familiarity brought by being in-between. But this identity also seemed to make it easier for her old friends to push her away

The community meetings in her neighborhood only cemented the distance she felt from her old friends, and cemented her sense of “we” -- or at minimum, hope for “we” -- on the other side of the interstate. Since those meetings, a few neighbors have reached out to Beth, asking questions and wanting to talk about equity and segregation. The seeds planted by her choice are finally starting to sprout….

ANDREW: And so, here, as Beth embarks on her second year at the school on the other side of town, she is actively working to redefine her WE. She is thinking differently about how to BE in the world so that she might be a part of building a different world. In many ways, it’s a small act, choosing a school for your kid. Beth’s family is one among tens of millions. But tens of millions of small acts can add up to something monumental, radical, revolutionary even. In the powerful words of professor David Kirkland

DR. KIRKLAND: If this country is to endure, we have to resolve this question about how we collectively can create a society that does not just benefit a few, but benefits all. And I do think that is a question -- it’s a big question, but it is not an insurmountable question, it’s a question we can collectively grapple with and collectively address. And I do believe that those parents who decide to join in the project of power-sharing, join in the project of bringing people together around collective empowerment, in order to rethink how we do schooling in this country, I do believe those parents will gain benefits for their kids that they cannot even imagine.

And I do believe that when some parents begin to make that decision, not only will they help to create better education systems for their kids, but they will be responsible for making better education systems for all kids. Their efforts will become the model by which we frame our future.

ANDREW: That is the future Beth is thinking of as she works to redefine WE for her kids -- for all kids. Because those kids grow up to be adults, the next generation of teachers, politicians, police officers, parents. This is generational work.

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Andrew: So, Val. Five episodes. What did you think?

Dr. Val: I thought it was incredible to experience the type of decision-making, the type of analysis, the type of reflection in real time of a parent who was making a decision to choose integrated spaces. And to do so in a way that was as thoughtful as possible, in terms of the type of school that I select.

And not wanting their privilege to continue to cloud their experience, even at this school where it was possible to do that. I think it was a fascinating listen to, to be on the other side of that.

Andrew: Yeah. I continue to just be so grateful that that Beth and Nadia and Maya were all willing to put themselves out there. With a little bit of anonymity, but still.

It feels like a lot! It feels like a lot. And the tricky part about it is I think that, you know, when, when the whole story gets told, it doesn't feel like Beth ends up in, in, you know, like, “racial nirvana.” That she has, like, “solved” all the problems in the world.

She's still in this really kind of “in between” space, even about advocating for integration or not, on the micro level. But, I think if you were to just listen to, like, Episode Two, you know, she's in a pretty different place than she was even at the end of the series, and certainly than she is now.

And so, I think it's easy to imagine somebody kind of taking that, that one episode out of context.

Dr. Val: And I think for me, hearing Beth reflect on what her old students, parents, and caregivers, like, would think about her decision, I think that was also fascinating and spoke to the amount of pressure that one feels in making the decision that you know, quote would be best for their kids, you know? And in that, instance, aligning with Whiteness, or privilege, or whatever.

The school decision isn't just about the kids. It also impacts your social groups and the people that you hang around and, um, your, maybe, “social status.” And I would hope folks follow Beth's model and continue to talk about that. Just to normalize that because, you know, quite frankly, I'm like, of course the Black school’s fine! You know? It's fine!

Um, why, why wouldn't it be fine? And, it's probably a little frustrating. that statement has to be normalized amongst White and/or privileged people? You know.

Andrew: Right. That there was, there was such an expectation that it wouldn’t be fine.

Dr. Val: yeah, the privileged and White folks do have to normalize that, and it shouldn't have to be that way either. So yes, of course it would. Of course it will be fine. I send my kids there! I love my kids too, you know? And so yeah, it's, it's interesting that it needs to be normalized and, and it, and it does need to be normalized.

Andrew: Yeah. The world, the world we wish we lived, lived in is not the world we actually live in. And I don't know, you know. Thinking about also just the ways that the world is kind of a different place. You know, this was 2019. It was pre-pandemic, it was pre-George Floyd. It still feels very relevant, but also they're something about the ways that we were (and in some ways continue to be) isolated through the pandemic, that has made kind of severing those ties feel like less of a leap right now than I think they were at the time when, when Beth had to make that choice.

Dr. Val: Yeah. To that point, to that point where it seems like it is, um, it's a different world. My own children have attended multiple schools, like in elementary school. Just trying to find a school that would do the least amount of harm and help them the most.

And I'm wondering, just in saying that, if White and privileged parents consider that annual assessment. Like, “Is this school still good for my kids?” Right? And as they develop in their critical consciousness or their racial literacy, like, not being afraid to make the change when it happens. Like, when you need it. Right? Because I wouldn't hesitate. Like, if the schools that my kids are going to next year proved to be bad for them in the first semester, we need to find an alternative. Right? Like, we need to go.

And, is that something that you think happens?

Andrew: Um. I don't, I don't think so. And that's really, it's really interesting you say that, because there's a way in which it, like, takes a little bit of the pressure off of your choice.

I know so many people who would be like, “Oh yeah, like, this school didn't turn out to be what it is. But, like, I just can't uproot my kids. I can't take them out of school in, you know, second grade or in third grade,” or, “They've, like, gotten to know the community,” and I think that’s real!

Dr. Val: I really worry about that. I worry about that all the time.

Andrew: There, there is something definitely true about like, you know, and I think different kids in different ways. But I think, you know, particularly, um, Maya, who, you know, she had this, the great analogy about, like, the couch and, and how sometimes you get a new couch, and you just takes you a long time to get used to the new couch.

And she just doesn't like change. And so, like, making a change for her is, is a big decision. And there is cost to that, obviously. But I think - I don't know, there's something about the way that, and I don't know where these messages come from, but, like, changing schools is, it somehow feels like failure.

Right. Like, you didn't do enough of your homework originally. You didn't have enough, you know, fields in your spreadsheet of ranking schools. You didn't talk to the principal for long enough. That there's this idea that like, if you, if you're doing it right, if you're a “good” parent, that you will do enough work ahead of time to find the quote, right school.

And, I think lead us to this, like, place where it feels like a really super high stakes decision. And there's a way that I think that the messaging is that if you have to change schools, it's ‘cause you didn't do a good job. It’s like a sign of failure.

Dr. Val: That is so fascinating.

Andrew: Rather than a sign of, like, personal growth or like now- I mean, the idea that you could know anything about a school without actually being a part of the school community is, like, a little bit crazy!

Dr. Val: I mean, a lot of bit!

Andrew: This idea of touring and stuff, right?

Dr. Val: It’s a lot of bit weird!

Andrew: Clearly, if you show up in the school, it's going to be different than whatever you thought.

Dr. Val: That is so, I mean, that's fascinating. I didn't think that was where you were going to go with that thought, um, at all! Because for me it really is, “Hey, you know, we've investigated enough here to see that um, my kid's needs won't be met. We've tried like changing teachers. I've tried getting involved, you know, they're not like really listening to our concerns.”

I think it's probably because in my mind I'm assuming that every public school will have things that we really love and things that we don't really love. And it's kind of like balancing that out. So can we get more of what we love and less of what we love, Right?

Andrew: And enough “more of what you love,” that it's worth the cost of changing. Because there, that is not “free,” like, that does have an impact on the kids,

Dr. Val: Right. And every time we've changed schools, I've told my kids we're changing the school because we need to find a better school for you based on these things. Right? But again, we've always gone to, like, neighborhood schools.

So, this is the school of the neighborhood. Um, in order for us to change schools, we gotta change neighborhoods! You know, um, and having this really transparent conversations with the young people about their experience and, you know, just our own observations of how we're treated in the school.

Like, it feels high stakes that they are not damaged by school. Not that “I have the exact right school. to put them in a position to be above another kid, whether it's in college admissions or anything else.” Right?

Andrew: Right. So, I, I mean, I feel like the, the kind of takeaway is like, it's no big deal to change schools. Which, which I think there's something in that, and like, I, I worry about how that message gets heard in White and privileged communities. Which is like, “If the school's not meeting my needs, if the school's not doing what I say I need the school to do, then I'm just gonna take my White high-test-score-getting, you know, privileged kid who comes with a bunch of fundraising potential and take 'em to some other school, and I'm gonna,” you know. So, like we also have that, like, how do you, how do you square that with the like, “Show up, listen, speak up, stay put” adage of, of Integrated Schools?

Dr. Val: So, I'm thinking about that, that cultural capital. Right? And so, if a White and privileged person is like, “I'm taking my PTA, I'm taking my high test scores,” that doesn't carry the same weight to me as it would for, for maybe other folks that think that is important. Because the community that I want my kids in, is one that those things are less valuable. So in, in that, like, hearing the message of “The school isn't working for me,” um, I think if it centers those things that we described versus centering, like, your kids having, uh, a well-rounded education, where they get to engage with diverse learners and develop their critical thinking and affirm the dignity, humanity of all people and, you know, are able to talk comfortably about any topic across difference.

I mean, that's what I'm looking for! So if that doesn't meet your needs, Godspeed.

Andrew: Well, so, but, like if every, if every White or privileged parent who feels like “I need the school to do exactly what I want” leaves the public school system, we don't have a public education system.

Dr. Val: Yeah. If White and privileged parents continue, because let's not pretend that they aren't right? If they continue to make the choice to not put their kids in public schools, then we will see the end of public education and also, they can't hold it hostage with just getting what they want. And I think that's what I appreciated about Beth, who was very thoughtful about how she showed up and how she continued to show up. And I loved the part when she was like, “Yeah, we're going to do extra vocabulary or Khan academy, but you know, I'm just not that parent.” Me either, Beth! Me either.

I think the quest or the desire, again, to have your kid “better than” it's just something, like, you have to constantly examine. Like, what does that actually mean? And what does that cost?

You know, I, I disagreed with a decision Beth made, ‘cause I made a different one for my child in terms of gifted and talented. My youngest, we knew that, a traditional program would be difficult to keep her engaged, right? And not to, not to push her ahead, but literally to keep her engaged. And so we went to a dual language program. In the dual-language program, she's excelling. We're like, “Dang it! Like, what do we do now?” And again, this was a whole school move. So my son had to move schools too, in order to, like, so in order to get into school, we had to move into the neighborhood to get, you know, and everybody had to go. And we're in the dual language program in kindergarten and they're like, “We can't help her.” Like, “She literally needs to skip the rest of kindergarten and go straight into first grade.” And so, at that point we felt like if we did not make that choice, she would be disengaged and we would lose her in a different way, you know?

I firmly believe that every teacher should be certified gifted and talented. I believe that we have gross underrepresentation of recognizing giftedness in every child, right? So like, this is not something that should be separated, and, um.

Yeah. And so that's tough! That's tough. I didn't, I didn't think of it as, and I appreciate Beth’s reflections. It made me, you know, stop and pause and think of my own. Like, I didn't think of it as a privileged parent, you know, trying to take advantage of the system.

Andrew: But talk a little bit about the, about the stakes, because that's what feels somewhat different to me is like this idea. And I think Beth talks about feeling like the, everybody was just constantly trying to like push her kids up the ladder.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: In a way that probably wouldn't be the experience for your kids because they're Black.

Dr. Val: Oh, absolutely. Thankfully, we had teachers who recognized like, “Hey, she's not like being disrespectful. She's literally already got this she's bored and we need to do something else for her.” It was a gift to have a teacher to recognize that in a little Black girl's face, because I don't think every Black kid, Brown kid gets that benefit of the doubt.

I think the answer is de-tracking, right? Um, wherever we can, but in the system that we currently have, the best thing for my kid to keep her engaged in school was to say “yes” to that, you know, opportunity.

Andrew: Right. I don't know that you and Beth making different decisions there is, like, actually a sign of different values in some way. It's a sign of, like, different circumstances. Because you know it's like Heather McGee would say, the zero-sum mindset is really problematic and it drives so many, so many problems. But, in some ways, when it comes to limited resources like gifted and talented, they are somewhat zero-sum. And so, there's a, a way in which opting out from that potentially creates more space for kids like your kids.

So we, in the intro we talked about Integrated Schools’, like, theory of change of “Contemplate, Desegregate, Integrate, Advocate.” And that was sort of like Beth's journey, which seemed to fit nicely in the era of Integrated Schools that was largely, kind of, White and/or privileged people talking to White and/or privileged people.

As a Black woman, like, what did you, I mean, you've mentioned some of it, but what did you take away from, from, the story and how does that kind of relate?

Dr. Val: So, Beverly Daniel Tatum has this anecdote about racism being a, moving walkway. And so, you get on there and if you're walking with it, you are walking toward racist ideas. And, you know, you have to actively be anti-racist by walking in the opposite direction.

So, I traveled recently. I'm like, “Let me try this out. Let me try walking the other way on here.” And, what I recognized in being terrified of walking in the opposite direction while people were on that moving walkway was just a clear understanding of the way Whiteness and/or privilege grips people that I am learning and understanding more with each of these conversations that I have with you and with other White folks, right?

Because (and we've talked about this before) I've never had to, like, go against my family. I've never had to go against my neighbors. I've never had to do that additional lifting in my fight against racism. I've always had a community. You know, so if I'm walking the wrong way on the, on the walkway, I got people with me. Yeah! People that I love! You know?

And so, listening to Beth, I feel, the more I think about it, like more liberated I feel. And that, like, that's not my reality! I'm already on the outside. So, I don't have to worry about losing every social connection when, when I'm doing this. And so it's, it's, it's been helpful to continue to build empathy in me and understanding, like, why folks are so afraid of doing it. Like, that used to frustrate me. Right? Like, why are you so afraid to do this? It's the right thing do. It's obviously the right thing to do!

And you know, like, people inch around it. They take lifetimes to, like, take some action. You know, and that can be frustrating. That can be frustrating to someone who knows that it's the right thing to do. And once you're doing it, it's the easy thing to do. And, um, what I appreciate about Beth's journey throughout the episodes is that she recognizes like, yeah, this was hard and yeah, my kids are going to be fine, you know?

Andrew: And it's liberating, right? Like, like, I mean, that piece of it feels so real. That that's the piece that's sort of been the most, resonant to me in revisiting these episodes. You know, obviously I think there's, there's this like broad idea of collective liberation that like, no one’s free until everyone's free.

And I think, you know, that's like a piece of this. But that feels much bigger than just, like, the kind of smaller scale liberation that is setting aside Whiteness. There is something that is freeing, I think, in, in leaving that behind and in the knowledge that your kids are gonna be okay. That actually the school was-

Dr. Val: Gonna be better!

Andrew: Was great. Your kids are probably gonna be better off for it! And, like, yeah, you, you can kind of set aside this. And that, I mean, to tie back to what you were talking about earlier about like, you know, the difference between getting a, a good education and a “better than” education, right?

Like, that if your goal is to “get ahead,” it's never ending. There's no point where you can rest because somebody else is also trying to get ahead. And so, if your like, goal as a parent is to make sure that your kid is “better than” somebody, anybody, it's relentless! It's never ending. And, and as soon as you can sort of say, like, “Wait a minute. Like, we actually all can be okay,” there, there is liberation in that.

Dr. Val: I remember you talking about, as a White kid in a predominantly Black and Brown space, the White kids feel a sense of liberation there too. They can be more of themselves, ‘cause they're also not forced to fit in.

And just because everyone is going to school in limousines and they don't have one. Right?

Andrew: Right. There are more ways to be.

Dr. Val: There more ways to be. And embracing that particular thing when you're already, you know, just understanding like you're uniquely you in this space! You know?

Andrew: And everybody else is also uniquely them. Yeah. I do think that there's, power in that for the, for the kids as well. So yeah. I mean, yeah, the, the liberation is kind of on both levels.

We obviously talked about Beth's racial identity and her kids' racial identity. And thinking sort of about, about Beth's journey since we finished recording, that has been a big part of, of her journey as well. And I think for her kids, the kind of like “in between-ness,” trying to figure out where do they fit in these racial dynamics.

So, so I think, for them that's always been part of their, of their experience. For a White kid in an all-White space, there, there's never any question of there being multiple ways to be. It's like always “Here is this kind of like one normed way to be.” And that, that definitely feels, feels repressive.

Dr. Val: Yeah. So, yeah. Those are, those are my main takeaways. I appreciate all that Beth shared and also that her young people shared with us. And, I hope listeners really do know, you know, for me, like, as you are evolving, take your children with you.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah, that's such a great point. And I think, getting to hear those, the little slivers of the conversations that she was having with her kids way back then, and, we touched base with Beth, in preparation for this, and got some updates from her. And she said that has been really a huge piece of, of their experience since then is having these conversations about the “in between-ness,” having these conversations about what does it mean to be multiracial? What does it mean to not fit neatly into any “one box” that her kids struggle with! You know, they, they struggle in, their current schooling experience, but, you know, Beth said that, that she never had those conversations growing up.

And even just to be able to like, create some context for her kids. So, her oldest now, Nadia, is going into eighth grade. And her, her middle school where she's been for the past couple years, one year was, was all virtual because of the pandemic. But she just had finished a year there and, and it was, and it was hard!

The school she's in has a magnet school. So this, from the outside, an incredibly diverse school, internally, incredibly segregated. Her kids are not in the magnet program. So they're in the kind of gen-ed program, which is mostly Black and Brown kids. And then there's this magnet program that's largely White and, and Asian kids.

And, and as kind of mixed race, Asian kids, they don't really know exactly where they fit in. I think it's been a challenge for her to figure out, you know, “Who's, who am I friends with? Where, where are my connections?” And she's kind of made some friendships in a bunch of different places, but I think particularly coming out of the pandemic and a year of being virtual, it's been, it's been a real challenge. But, she at least has this, context to understand that this “in between-ness” that she feels is gonna be part of her identity for her whole life.

That this is something that is there and that she can talk about it with her mom and with her little sister, um, Maya and Maya just finished fifth grade and apparently had, like, the best year of her life and loved her school and loved all the kids there. And, um, I'm assuming loved the fall festibal, one of my favorite things she said, uh, in that.

Dr. Val: Nice.

Andrew: Yeah! A couple of other updates from Beth, she did say that, you know, the pandemic kind of put an end to a lot of the kind of advocacy work. So we left her at the end of five, thinking about school closures. Her school did not get closed, fortunately, but a couple of other schools in the district did. But the kind of advocacy opportunities really went away in the pandemic. And so, now she's trying to find a way to kind of tap back in. And I did ask her, you know, does she feel like she really finally found a “we” at the elementary school where her kids went and, and she said she got really close. And again, the pandemic-

Dr. Val: Oh, yay.

Andrew: was kind of, you know, sort of felt like she was on the cusp, and then everybody had to not see each other anymore. Which is just yet another way, one of the ways in which the, kind of, separation that the pandemic caused, harmed so many people. You know, beyond just kind of the, the obvious areas, these, kind of, relationships that didn't get to fully form, these relationships that were on the cusp and didn't actually get to get to happen. I think it's just another one of the, one of the costs of the past couple of years.

Dr. Val: Yeah. Thank you Beth!

Andrew: Yeah, she did say that they, as a family, continue to have daily conversations about race, about racial tensions, racism in schools, opportunities, meritocracy, um. And Beth said her main goal is to provide kind of alternative narratives to what their eyes tell them. That even in the ways in which their schools are kind of replicating that, that if they can be having conversations at home, that push back on those ideas. And, um, as she says, “complicate the narrative,” show them that things are not necessarily what they appear to be. That they can start to see the kind of invisible context, that feels really important. And that being in these school environments is what gives her the opportunity to do that.

Dr. Val: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, thank you, Beth and Nadia and Maya for sharing.

Dr. Val: Yes.

Andrew: That was, yeah. Yeah, they were very, very open and honest and forthcoming with, uh, difficult topics. And we certainly appreciate it.

Dr. Val: Yeah. And thank you for allowing me to revisit this with you.

Andrew: Yeah! No, it's been a, it's been a treat. It's been, you know, bittersweet to go back to these episodes with Courtney and Courtney's voice in them. And, um, always hard to, uh, to hear her and kind of remember all the things, but also been really nice to kind of think about this series that feels so relevant, was so much work at the time.

Um, buy also feels like still relevant in so many ways, but also great to have kind of your perspective as, as we think about, you know, becoming a more multiracial organization to kind of see, you know, how does, how did these things land. So, really grateful for you being here.

Dr. Val: You got it, friend!

Andrew: Yeah! Thank you, listeners. Let us know what you thought. Podcast@IntegratedSchools.org. Hit us up on social media @integratedschools. I think we have one more bonus episode coming later in August that's gonna be very exciting!

Dr. Val: Yeah!

Andrew: And then we will be back in September, um, back to it for real.

So, thanks for sticking with us and, and as we are getting ready for our new season, as always, we are grateful for your support, patreon.com/integratedschools. If you wanna throw us a few bucks every month, we would appreciate it!

Dr. Val: Yes! Please listen, share, grow, take your kids with you. Have them listen. Um, this community needs you for its continued growth.

Andrew: Absolutely. It is a pleasure and honor to be in this with you as I try to know better and do better.

Dr. Val: Until next time.