S8E4 – Between We and They – Part 4 (Re-release)

Between We and They - 2022 Re-Release - Part 4

ANDREW: Welcome to the Integrated Schools Podcast. I’m Andrew, a White dad from Denver.

COURTNEY: And I’m Courtney, a White mom From Los Angeles.

ANDREW: This is Part 4 of “Between We and They : A School Integration Story.” If you haven’t heard the other episodes, go back and listen now. Last time, we heard from Beth’s at the end of the school year about her personal transformations over the past year. Today, we continue the conversation from June as Beth shares how the year went for her daughters and we even get to hear from her kids directly.

COURTNEY: One of Beth’s concerns about changing schools had been around academics Would her kids be bored? Would they fall behind? Would she need to supplement at home?

BETH: So, the academic piece, I wondered about. I really did wonder about it. I didn't start off with like, “Oh my God, they're academics are gonna, you know, that the curriculum is terrible” or whatever. I didn't really didn't start off like that. I just didn't know. I did set up Khan Academy for them! And I, I, I really did commit myself to like, giving them more complicated spelling words every week. But that lasted for, like, one week. And the Khan Academy thing just didn't happen. I'm just not that kind of parent.

You know what? There was a period of time this spring where I just felt, I don't, I'm not even sure what brought it up, but I did start to wonder about my older one’s academics. But it was fleeting. And honestly, I can't even remember what it was about. I'm not worried.

But, you know, my younger one -- I hate to compare my two, but I just can't help it -- but my younger one is so excited about learning. And I think that's just who she is. She just came out that way. She loves reading, and she loves learning. And she loves talking about what she learned. So she retains information, like, it's, it's incredible to me because my brain doesn't work like that. You know, they asked me if, if I wanted her to be tested for gifted and talented.

I talked about it with my husband, and ultimately we declined. Um, and I think that, you know, it's fine. I think she is academically advanced. And I think that she spent some time, like, doing nothing at school because the teacher was too busy managing the classroom. Or she would have to do some worksheets, or whatever. And there's also the other part where, like, they have, you know, kind of independent computer stuff where she reads and answers questions and learns. And you know, that, that's at her own pace. So I think that she can advance at her own pace. So I think it was a mix.

So my, my older one, she has a 504…

ANDREW: A 504 plan is a requirement from the Office of Civil Rights in the Department of Education that ensures that all students with disabilities are having their needs met by a school.

BETH: And honestly, for years we’ve been trying to clarify what her diagnosis is, and we still don’t have much clarity on that. But she does struggle with reading and with language. And so she has a 504 to help her – to help support her in the classroom.

She has to work really hard at school. And I think she does. I think she's a hard worker. I know that she did well enough, you know, on her report cards. And, you know, her statewide testing scores were better than last year's and they were good last year. So, they're better this year. So she even improved over last year, which is great. And, the person also off asked me if I wanted her to be GT tested. And I declined that, too. Yeah. So, I don't think their academics are suffering?

ANDREW: Beth feels generally okay about the academics, and is grateful for all of the things her daughters are learning.

She and her husband declined the Gifted testing -- and had to decline it again and again, as they felt pressure from the teacher and the counselor. But, if the girls were identified as gifted, would they change anything? Do anything different? Separating kids by “ability” strikes Beth as yet another form of segregation. One that continues to advantage the already-advantaged. She also recognizes that her family’s privilege may have had at least some impact on getting the offer in the first place.

She wonders, too, about the 504 plan that her daughter has. Not that her daughter doesn’t need the 504, but...

BETH: I mean this is the thing. I feel like, I, I never knew that until just recently when I read a headline about how more privileged kids have 504s so that these kids could get more time to take their tests. And when I, when I read that, my heart just sank because I just thought, I, you know, my daughter who has dyslexic tendencies, can truly benefit from having a 504. So when I saw that it’s mostly privileged kids who get these 504s, I just thought, ugh, isn’t there some arena? Some, some sliver of life, of school where privileged parents do not game the system?

I thought that making this decision to transfer my girls was gonna be ‘it.’ That was gonna be the decision I made and that was it. But I was not prepared for and was not expecting to have to make these decisions over and over again. Umm. And so, it’s as if the system is still just trying to push my girls along and up the ladder. And I have to keep saying “No, they don’t need to be pushed up the ladder, thank you very much. They’re fine where they are. And they will succeed from where they are.” Because when my privileged kid gets more and more, that means other kids get less.

COURTNEY: Moving schools was a big decision. One that Beth thought about carefully, that she worked to prepare herself and her family for. And Beth thought that this move was the “big hurdle,” that this decision was the pushing-back. But she was surprised at how much she had to continue pushing back once her girls were in the new school. The relentlessness of the ways that advantage begets advantage, privilege begets privilege. It wasn’t only in academics. Beth was also concerned about another opportunity that came their way.

BETH: I got a, you know, a little piece of paper home, saying, you know, “Your student was selected to take music lessons after school.” So, you know, I went to the informational meeting, and, you know, my daughter was super excited to do it, so she chose the instrument. We went to go rent it. And, she was engaged in these music classes twice a week after school. And she just loved it. I kind of didn't really understand why, but she loved it. And I, I kind of wondered about who was selected for this after school music program. You know, those students who were selected was not the representation of the school, you know, school demographics.

I think, I feel like the teacher did her best to try to represent. You know, I guess all along I just worried, and I wondered if me and my girls were gonna get preferential treatment. And I did sense that from one of the teachers. Yeah, I just, I just didn't want that. I just wanted to be very, very aware of, as aware as I could be about any kind of preferential treatment. So, halfway through, I’m like “You know, I don't, I don't feel so good about this,” to my daughter. “And I'm just not sure, like, maybe after spring break, we're going to stop.” And she really wanted to do it. I just said she could. She could go to the year they were having a recital and all that, so...

COURTNEY: Beth wondered about how she ‘presents’ in the school, how assumptions about the kind of parent she is might be affecting who gets picked for these programs.

BETH: They see me, I mean, the teachers see me around the school when I come to pick up and I drop off and I volunteer in the classrooms, so, maybe they perceive me to be a certain kind of parent. And that I would have certain expectations of the school.

ANDREW: Is she the kind of parent who might demand that her child be included? Might the teachers guess that she will throw her weight around to get the spot? Or maybe the assumptions were about the other families.

BETH: Maybe, there’s an assumption that renting an instrument was going to be a financial hardship? Maybe staying after school and being picked up at a certain time is going to be difficult? I’m not sure…

COURTNEY: But Beth also thinks about those kids who don’t get picked.

BETH: You know, this is the thing that I kind of struggle to talk about, so... and I know this is gonna sound very tangential, but, you know, I volunteered for 90 minutes per week in a 3rd grade classroom. And, you know, as the months went on, it got more and more difficult to sort of engage the kids, maintain their attention, and work with them. It was, at times it was extremely chaotic. It just felt very stressful. There were times when I would just sit with one of them who was willing to engage in this math exercise with me. And, you know, I would talk to her, her or him, like I talked to my girls, which is like, “You got this!” like, I know. And it's true. I wasn't I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't BS-ing them. These kids are bright! And I adore these kids and I felt like, I still feel like I have a connection with them and I really care about them.

I feel like some of these kids are just up against so much. And they’re just kids. They’re just little kids, and I really don’t know what’s going on in these kid’s lives and I don’t know, maybe the lessons would be hard for these kids. And maybe the teacher thinks so anyways. I just feel like I’m walking a fine line here and I don’t… Yeah, I’m not sure how to talk about it.

ANDREW: Beth is walking that fine line between acknowledging the real damage that institutionalized racism -- and the poverty it causes -- can wreak, and perpetuating the stereotypes that allow the institutionalized racism to continue. Through her experiences in the classroom, she understands why a teacher might expect that “certain” kids might be disruptive to after school music lessons -- and that some of that behavior may be related to poverty. But she also sees her daughter getting the chance to participate simply because her family doesn’t face those challenges, and it makes her uncomfortable.

COURTNEY: The teacher sees the privilege that Beth’s kid brings with her, and assumes a whole bucket of behaviors that allow her to more easily participate in an after school music program -- a program that might also be designed in ways that accommodate her and exclude others. And maybe the teacher is right! But what assumption does she make (or our entire education system make) for those kids who have less? For the vulnerable kids? What behaviors do we expect from those kids? And in what way do those expectations only further increase already existing privilege? These assumptions may leave out a kid, who given the right supports and chance, might have found their passion in music.

ANDREW: But also, what is Beth’s role in pushing back against this? Those assumptions and expectations are built into our system of education, and Beth is just one individual making decisions in a massive system. It leaves her with a heaviness about the entire program and she doubts that her daughter will do it again next year. She also worries about talking about this part of her experience at all.

BETH: I feel protective of these kids, and, and this school. I would never talk about these things with my White and privileged neighbors because I feel like these are the kinds of stories that they would use to justify, justify why they could never enroll their kids at a school like my girls’ school. Behavior problems, distractions, and all of that. It feels like it plays right into their stories. Their White-normed and privileged narrative that they tell themselves about Black and/or Brown schools and, and all those assumptions.

I know that the behavior classroom stuff is real. But I feel like there is a hyper focus on the individual. On a certain community. When I feel like instead of pathologizing and judging a whole group of people, privileged people around me could focus on the system. The system is the problem -- not a whole group of people.

ANDREW: Assumptions, expectations - these systemic issues affected Beth’s personal relationships, both in her new school and with friends from the old. They were also at play as her kids worked on building relationships.

BETH: It's a little hard for me to talk about that from a broader perspective because I don't I don't know that I have a handle on it. I mean, my girls, we did have my girls’ friends over for playdates, and once or twice for a sleepover. They went to birthday parties when they were invited. And there were a few events, school events where I’d pick up a friend and, you know, bring her to the event and drop her off after. And, so I, you know, when we could I tried to facilitate connections.

Um, yeah. I'm guessing that kind of quickly my older daughter, it was, It kind of became known that she's the “rich kid” because she's got a big house? I don't know that that was uncomfortable for her, but she did mention it a couple times. But, yeah, the whole playdate thing -- it kind of doesn't feel like a big deal. It does feel like a White-normed thing.

ANDREW: However, this didn’t seem to impede her girls from making friends.

BETH: You know, a lot of the girls, a lot of kids in fourth grade have phones. You know, “Why can't your daughter have a phone?” They would ask me, and I don't want her to have a phone. And, “I'm gonna miss her over the summer!” And I said, “Well, I'll give you my phone number.” And so, I took the phone number of all these fourth graders, and they text my daughter and they FaceTime occasionally. I think it’s, I mean, I think it's sweet. They want to stay connected, you know?

COURTNEY: Beth’s daughters made friends, and while these friendships had different structures than the friendships at their former school, and relied more on togetherness at school than playdates or sleepovers. The friendships were real, and the girls felt like they were part of the school community.

ANDREW: A parent’s perspective is worth something, but what do the kids really think about this experience? Beth asked them about the year, starting with her 8 year old -- who chose the pseudonym “Maya”: BETH: So how was your year?

MAYA: It was good.

BETH: Better or worse, or...?

MAY: I think it was the same. Yeah, but I was sort of sad to leave my old school.

BETH: I know you were. Yeah, that was hard for you. I know the first day is always hard. But after the first day, like, when did you start to get used to it?

MAYA: Ummm. So, like, the 16th day or something? Yeah, it took a couple weeks. But then someone asked me to be friends, so I said yes, because I sort of needed a friend by then. So, we played together, and it was very fun. I just don't like new. It's hard to get and hard to get to know new things better.

BETH: So you’re saying maybe it will take a little more time?

MAYA: Yeah. It's like, um, you have a couch and you have to get rid of the couch. But you really like it, and you don't really like the new couch. It takes you a long time to like the new couch.

BETH: This is, what? Yeah, great analogy. And I think this speaks to your personality or your temperament that you don't like change.

MAYA: I do not like change.

BETH: You really do not like change and it’s hard for you.

COURTNEY: Beth also asked her 10 year old -- who wanted to be called Nadia -- how it was to make this transition.

BETH: I wanted to know if the uniforms were as hard for her as it seemed to be, from where I stood. I thought it would be, like the only thing she remembered, and she would be traumatized. But she really didn't remember that part at all.

BETH: How was it for you? The first week, first days of school.

NADIA: Well, it was okay. Like, I wasn't really used to it. And I didn't have any friends, and it was kind of hard to, to make friends.

BETH: It was hard to make friends?

NADIA: A little bit. actually wasn't so hard, but I'm just like I didn't really know anybody, so like… Like, I mean, I made friends quickly. It was just kind of with the adults that were a little challenging for me. Because they were a little bit more strict.

BETH: So did the different rules. What did you think about the different rules? Did you notice the rules were different?

MAYA: Mm-Hmm. The rules were a little stricter than my old school because I don't know why, it's just hard to explain. But, um, so they-

BETH: Did it bother you that they're stricter?

MAYA: It didn't bother me. It just gave me a tiny bit of a harder time. Cause, if, like I had a misunderstanding, then I could get in bad trouble. I had to pay attention very, very well. No, not spacing out.

ANDREW: The new school had a lot of rules, one of them being a policy of alternating boys and girls in the cafeteria seating. Beth asked Nadia about this...

BETH: So how about the whole boy, girl boy girl thing in the cafeteria? Does that bother you?

NADIA: Um, no, not really. Because now I have friends who are boys.

BETH: Yeah. So if it was your choice, would you sit next to the boys in the cafeteria?

NADIA: Blink, blink. Um, well, I mean I’d rather sit next to the girls, but I'm fine with sitting next to the boys. Um always the boys at my old school used to think that that were “so cool,” they would do, like, dumb stuff because they would act so cool. And then, like, they would get in trouble on purpose. But the boys at my new school, they're, like, nice and stuff.

BETH: Nice to the girls? Or nice to you?

NADIA: Yeah. Because always the boys in my old school used to, like, be separated from the girls. But now, like, the girls and boys interact.

BETH: And how is that for you?

NADIA: It's good, cause, like, I finally have some friends who are boys.

BETH: Yeah.

BETH: They both did talk about the behavior issues at school, and how that was hard for them. Not hard. It wasn't hard. It was maybe an inconvenience.

NADIA: Well, I mean, actually yes. Lots of the kids got in trouble a lot, and they were always sent to the principal's office. And our principal always had to, like, have prep talks, pep talks with the kids and, like, always third and up. But that includes me because I'm in, like, fourth grade. Um, I WAS in fourth grade, so I had to stay there, but I I didn't make any trouble, so it was kind of annoying.

MAYA: Yeah, me too.

NADIA: That would happen for second grade, too.

MAYA: Yes. All of the time Ms. XXX got sooooooo mad. I just wish that, um, that it was a tad bit easier for Ms. XXX and the kids, that the kids wouldn't get in trouble so much.

BETH: You know, I stopped the recording at that point, and I just kind of talked to her, to both of them, about how you know, the life that you guys have is different than most of the kids that you go to school with. I do want them to have an understanding that situations can shape how we all react in the world. And kids react in the world. And that's important. we all respond to our environment differently. Um, and so I think to talk to my girls about the context and situations, as far as I can see and understand myself. And at the same time, to see kids as individuals without pity and, you know, to be in relationships with them and to have your real feelings about them is valid and okay.

I think it's important to say and I even, it's important for me to tell Maya, to remind her that the behavior problems that she saw was not across the board. It wasn't every kid in her class. It wasn't everybody. It wasn't the same kids over and over again. It wasn’t even half the class. It also felt important for me to remind her of that and to into, uh, and that. And that was just the truth and the facts. Anyway, so she felt really badly for saying what she did, which was, you know, for complaining about the behavior problems among her peers. And so she insisted that I turned the recording back on, and-

MAYA: I feel very bad for the kids because they, um they don't have as much as we're used to. So I just don't. It's hard to think about it that someone cannot, someone doesn't have all their needs. I think they deserve as much as I do, because they're humans. There's no difference. I mean, they need, they need, some people need almost literally the same needs. Food, water. Some people need some different needs, but it's, it's still just sad.

BETH: I think it represented, like, how difficult it is for me as an adult to think about this, this struggle. But then, my explanation to try to provide a context felt important. And then at the same time, I feel like maybe I went too far? Because then I feel like I, all I did was instill pity for these kids. And that wasn't my point. And so, it's, it's hard for me to, to understand it. Then, let alone to explain it, and then to explain it to an, an eight year old…

You know, I think that these conversations that I have and continue to have with my girls are really important, because I think it's easy for Maya, especially because she's younger maybe, to complain about the behavior issues. But with Nadia, for example, she very clearly would talk about behavior issues in her former school and how that manifested. They, there were behavior issues in the former school. They just manifest very differently.

BETH: So overall, how, what? Let's say on a scale of 1 to 10, where one is “the worst year ever, all these horrible things happened,” and 10 the best, “the best year ever”. Like, what? How would you rate the year overall?

MAYA: I would rate it a seven and half. I like that school.

BETH: So, overall your whole entire year, including everything that you could think about, how was the year for you?

NADIA: It was great. It was super fun.

BETH: And the teachers?

NADIA: Yeah, they were nice.

BETH: Do you think they were caring?

NADIA: Yeah, very.

BETH: And you think they cared about the kids?

NADIA: Yes, they did.

BETH: They did. Some of the kids are all the kids?

NADIA: All of them.

BETH: So, do you feel like you missed out on stuff?

NADIA: Well, um, obviously, kind of like our old school was very like, like they had much more money and they had, like, much more activities to do. But, I mean, like, it was fun going to our new school, and it was like a fun experience because there's, like, new people. But, yes, I do feel like I missed out on stuff like the roller coasters they had on fall. Yeah! The fall thing. But, um, with our new school, they just, um, they just go outside and, like, blow up some balloons and stuff. Which is fun, too!

Um, the last day of school was the best. We had field day and we went outside for the whole entire day, and I got to, um, help out.

BETH: So, um, just to clarify XXX never had roller coasters. They may have had, like, those tiny little moonwalks. What do you call those? Jumpy houses?

NADIA: Yeah, that's what I mean by roller coasters.

BETH:So the carnival, the festivals were much different and more low key, right? Were they less fun?

NADIA: Um, yeah, you could say that, but, but, I mean, they were still fun! Just-

MAYA: I think they were the same amount of fun. It had different activities, and it was really, they, they're very different, but they were like the same fun.

BETH: My younger daughter said that the school, she says she thinks that the school changed her.

MAYA:. It helps, like, with my daily life.

BETH: So what do you mean by that?

MAYA: It makes me think in a different way. Like, um, it just makes me different in some ways. Like, whenever I talk, it sounds different than what I would usually say. If I hadn’t gone to XXX, then I wouldn't have wanted that different, different talk.

BETH: Can you give me an example?

MAYA: So, someone was doing this really good dance. So, um, everyone keeps saying “dang”. So I said “Dang!” because, because that's what I thought, well, that's what I would say.

BETH: When she says that, it just kinda makes me cringe, because that’s not, because she’s, she’s coopting what other kids are saying. She’s -- I, I worry that it is cultural appropriation – or that it’s leaning in that direction. And, and I understand that she is trying to fit in, or that’s code-switching or whatever you want to call it. But in some way, she's telling me that she's learning how to be with kids who are different from her. She’s in that group now. So when she said she, she thinks about things differently, she's not saying it's good or bad, she just thinks differently. I just feel like I'm observing her, for lack of a better word, integrating into her school community. And so she's learning to be with them. So, I think initially, maybe she, I think she was making an effort to fit in. And I think, I kind of felt like by the end of the year, even by the middle of the year, she was feeling some belonging.

BETH: My older one, she talked about her personal growth, and I've seen it as well. It’s really hard to say that it's because she's at the new school. It could be her age. It could be so many things. But she attributes it to being at the new school.

BETH: Okay, you made an observation that last year you were shy and didn't really stand up for yourself. And then this year, for whatever reason, I'm not sure if you know what the reason is, you are not so shy anymore.

NADIA: In third grade I had, like, a very hard time because, like, the girls were super mean and stuff. So I always thought, I didn't want to, like, stand up for myself because then they would get even more mean. So I was always, like, super shy and not like opening, like, talkative.

BETH: You weren't really yourself. You were comfortable to be yourself?

NADIA: Yeah, and like all the girls were always, like, making me uncomfortable and especially like, um, lots of my real friends, they were always being made fun of, and I didn't want to stand up for them. But now that I think of it, I should have stood up for them.

But now, in fourth grade, there wasn't any, like, bullying and stuff. It was always just, like, nice everywhere. Yeah, cause always the girls, they would always stand up to other girls. Sometimes it would be like, in a serious way, or sometimes it would be, like, like in a funny but like, really meaningful way. And like, I learned my lesson, like and started, like standing up for other kids.

BETH: But so what you’re saying is that It sounds like you were learning from these other fourth grade girls, like how to stand up for yourself and other people.

NADIA: Oh, well, it's not really just the girls, it was just like how the people acted. They were always, like, fighting back in school. Like, you know, like roasts and burns like “Your face, blah ba-blah ba-blah.” And so, that those we always like, super big. And like, if you did one, there would be like, “Ooooooh!”

BETH: Right. Yeah, I know you like doing that now.

BETH: I feel like it’s a way in which she learned to use words and play with words and, and for her, it feels significant because she can sometimes struggle with language. And so that was significant to me.

You know, I do think that they’re trying to blend in and fit in and, you know, and experiment. They still seem true to themselves and comfortable at school and enjoy school. And yeah, I think they do feel like they belong.

BETH: What was the best part of the new school?

MAYA: The best part was probably all the fun celebrations they hosted. Like, the fall festival, that was super fun. They have fun activities and all that stuff.

NADIA: Like, I was beginning to think, um, about, like comparing my old school to my new school.

BETH: Sweetie, you gotta talk into the phone.

NADIA: My old school! To my new school, and I was beginning to think that this school was, like more, you know, open to me and much nicer. Um, like, it wasn’t as like, you know, white and black separated and stuff like that.

MAYA: Most of the parts were pretty good. But some parts, I, it was hard.

BETH: Yeah, that’s the same. Yeah I think that’s life! That’s with everything in life. You know?

BETH: I mean, really! If most of the parts were pretty good, like, I feel like it was a really good year. And I think it was a great year for growth for all of us. And I think both of them really found a lot of joy at the school.

COURTNEY: And so we asked Beth, at the end of their first year, given all that she went through to get here - the lost friendships, the feeling of loneliness, the ways she had to grapple with her own privilege and identity, the behavior issues in class, the new rules, the uniforms, the small PTA budget, the lack of carnival rides - and given that she could have stayed in her old school, how did feel about this choice? Did she have any regrets about changing schools?

BETH: Absolutely not. Not one second. I honestly, yeah. Not one, not one fiber of me feels any regret. This feels like yeah, just the right decision all around.

COURTNEY: So much of integrating is about reorienting how we choose to look at things, being ready to appreciate other ways of being. Thinking about how we think. So for Beth, this has meant noting differences without understanding them as sacrifices. And the girls followed suit. Like, the new school had different activities but “the same amount of fun.”

ANDREW: Beth’s family is forging a new sense of being in their city. For the kids, this has meant not only adapting to a new school, but also learning about belonging, not just fitting in. For Beth, it has meant struggling with disparities. With understanding not only how inequity manifests in lived experience, but also how it continually builds on itself, compounds. From gifted and talented programs to music lessons, Beth feels like choosing to not support segregation by moving schools was only the first step. The pushing back is ongoing.

COURTNEY: And as relentless as it is, Beth is also finding that through knowing people as individuals -- with names and faces and stories that can’t be reduced to a single narrative of poverty and/or racism -- pushing back becomes personal. It’s easier to choose not to hoard opportunities when we actually care about people. When we have shared humanity. When we are a “we.”

ANDREW: Despite the challenges that Beth has faced throughout this move, despite the girls having to adjust not only to a new school but to a different school culture, despite the vastly inequitable resources, it was a “really good year.” It wasn’t a sacrifice, it was a prioritization of values. And Beth’s family is looking forward to going back to their school in the Fall.

COURTNEY: Please join us next time for the final installment of “Between We and They: A School Integration Story” for our epilogue of sorts. Beth’s district is in the midst of some, well, upheaval, and we will be talking with Beth about that as they begin their second year at their new school.

ANDREW: Thanks to Blue Dot Sessions for providing the music in this episode. If you’re appreciating this series, please leave us a rating and review (it helps other people find the podcast!), share it with your friends, and support this all-volunteer effort by clicking that donate button at integratedschools.org.

COURTNEY: Thanks for listening, and thank you Beth, Nadia and Maya for giving us a glimpse into what this year has been like for you. And as always, listeners, we are grateful to be in this with you all as we try to know better and do better.