Ep 7 – Vicky and The Saviors

The Integrated Schools Podcast

EP 7: Vicky & The Saviors

HOSTS: Andrew Lefkowits & Courtney Mykytyn

GUEST: Vicky

RELEASE DATE: December 5, 2018

Andrew: Welcome to the integrated schools podcast. I'm Andrew, a White dad from Denver,

Courtney: And I'm Courtney, a White mom from LA.

Andrew: Episode 7: “Vicky and the Saviors” We're joined by Vicky, a Mexican mom from LA who has witnessed an influx of privilege in her school. It's actually the same school she went to.

Courtney: This conversation with Vicky is really fascinating. Um, she agreed to talk to us, but also was a little hesitant or felt a little hesitant calling out some of the things that she shared, I guess, you know, it's one thing to have these conversations on the ground and in a moment, but it's something else to be recorded and then blast it out into the ether, right? But I'm really grateful that she did.

You know, this isn't her work. This isn't the work of any parent of color, right, to help White and or privileged families show up in positive ways. But these are the exact kinds of conversations that can help us White people get there. So, yeah. And again, thanks to Vicky.

Andrew: That's like super important to hear from Vicky. I think it really, it helped me hear things in a different way. Yeah. You know, things I might not have thought twice about and all of a sudden I hear them coming out of Vicky's mouth, it's like, oh, wow, yeah, now I hear how that could sound.

And yeah. I mean, I hear people saying, I'm sure that's not how the person meant it. Like, why are you assuming? Assuming those people have bad intentions? Why can't Vicky just give these people the benefit of the doubt, but you know, the truth is we, White people don't get the benefit of the doubt because we haven't earned it yet. Showing up doesn't mean that you've built trust or that you've earned the benefit of the doubt.

Courtney: Yeah. I mean, I think like as White people, we seem to expect to get this benefit of the doubt, you know, it's historically been available to us, right? We walk in and assume that we'll be treated with a kind of shared goodwill. And so having to build that trust from the start can actually feel like unwelcomeness.

Andrew: I guess I don't think it's about welcoming us, right? It's we have to prove ourselves trustworthy. ‘Cause in the end, our, our intent isn't nearly as important as our impact. And definitely no question, you have to have good intentions, but that's not how we build trust. We build trust through our actions, through our behaviors. And if those actions aren't considering the actual impact, the actual effects that they're having on the communities we're trying to be a part of, I don't see how we ever build trust.

Courtney: Yeah, impact matters more than intent indeed. Right? The road to hell as it were. And I think like the cumulative effects of these heaps of good intentions, without clear understanding of the impacts that we can impart are vast. Right? So as we step into global majority schools, we're bringing all of that with us and we seem to kind of expect parents of color to ignore all of the experiences they've had both historically and personally.

Andrew: Yeah. Right, right. We can't expect to be seen as separate from that history. Yeah. I'm really grateful that Vicky was willing to remind us of that.

So, you know, Courtney, there was one other thing that this, this conversation really made me think about. Do you know how to put your phone on silent?

Courtney: You know, uh, I don't actually.

Andrew: I see that. (laughter)

Courtney: The dings are really problematic. This is, this is a scrappy podcast, Andrew.

Andrew: Lots of things in this one. All right. Let's hear from Vicky.

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Courtney: All right. Well, we are here this morning with Vicky.

Vicky: Thank you. I'm a mother of four children. I live in Los Angeles. I like to identify myself as Mexican, even though I am now a naturalized citizen. Let's be clear about that. Don't try to call ICE on me. Um, I grew up in Los Angeles since the age of six, when my parents brought me into the same community, 20 something years now. I'm lying, 30 something years. I'd like to be younger actually.

Um, my husband grew up here in the same community. And so I have to take credit for saying that I refuse to leave this community, even though my husband tries to take me away from this neighborhood. But even though there's a lot of White people now and gentrification happening and has been happening for a while, I refuse to leave.

Andrew: How old are your kids?

Vicky: So I have a 13 year old, 11 year old, a 9 year old and a 6 year old, all boys, all boys.

Andrew: And, and the schools that they go to, what do those schools look like? What did they look like when your 13 year old started? What do they look like now?

Vicky: Now? Um, so I could talk about what they looked like when I went there as a student, cause I went to the same schools. The racial breakdown then was like 98% Latino. When my oldest started kindergarten, there was an eighth of the school that was non Latino, if that, now we've moved up. And so now we have more non Latino. So there were, there was always like a divide even from the beginning, it seemed to have gone away. And now it's kind of come back between, you know, like the Latino parents and the non, non Latino parents.

Courtney: What do you mean divide?

Vicky: I think from the beginning, there was parents that were coming in or like, I know better because you know, I'm White and I know maybe I'm educated. And I think we should do things this way, as opposed to however you've been doing it for the longest time. And so that kind of went away for a little bit. It was like everybody learned to coexist. And then we have another round of parents that came in again with the, I know better or, pobrecito, you know, poor, you, let me help you and save you.And so now we have that again, but I think it's multiplied now.

I think as much as I personally, I have tried to say like, yeah, that's not cool, that's not okay, like, we don't need saving cause, newsflash we've been fine before you and we will be fine after you.

Courtney: And how do you see the saviorism playing out? Like, what does that mean to you?

Vicky: I'm very outspoken and I'm very involved in the community, and in particular my children's school. So I went to this district meeting one time and of course I was accompanied by other parents and they happened to be White and, or privileged parents. And, when we were outside of the meeting, we did what we were supposed to do. And, um, we're having a conversation about, I guess, social justice at the school, and the parent said, you know, not to me, but in that conversation said that she was frustrated and that the only reason why her child was at that school was because her daughter was saving and keeping Brown boys out of jail. So that was one example of, Oh,

Courtney: Uh.

Vicky: not,

Courtney: How did that feel to hear that?

Vicky: At that moment, I was shocked. Like, did she really say that?

Andrew: Out loud?

Vicky: I didn't understand. Like, did you just hear yourself? Like, wow. And I just couldn't talk for a while. Like I just listened because I was processing, it was like, wow. It was hard. It was hard to swallow. Yeah. It was really hard. It still is like thinking, you know, now thinking back on it and I never would have expected it from this parent, let alone anyone. But then you think is that person also thinking... Is that why they're here and now you kind of look more, for other signs and symptoms of that same disease, you know, like, do they have that same mentality?

Andrew: Yeah. And so then the other White families who show up in the school don't get the benefit of the doubt. Right, right. Yeah. There's like a fundamental trust that, I feel like in general, we White people walk around assuming that we're going to get, walking into just about any space, assume that people will give us the benefit of the doubt and assume good intentions from us. But you gotta earn that.

Vicky: Yeah, we, we definitely don't grow up with that thought. If you meet someone there, you know, don't automatically assume they're going to trust you and you have to work at it. You have to earn that it's not automatic. And so sometimes when, you know, like parents will be like, well, can you take my kid with yours? My kid with you, or was my kid with you? It's like, wait, like you would just trust me with your kid. I barely even know you. Why would you do that? I've grown up with the mentality of, I need to earn whatever I have. I need to earn it. I have to work at it because it's not automatically handed to me.

Courtney: How do you feel like, like it's, it's painful to hear it assuming that my kid is going to jail without you is infuriating, but I don't know, can you sort of draw the lines between this idea of White saviorism and how that affects relationships with other adults? How is knowing that White and/or privileged families are “there to save you,” how does that change the nature of parents relating to each other on campus?

Vicky: [a]Well, for me, it created more animosity. Like, I don't want to be around you, I don't want to work with you or I don't want to associate with you. And I don't want my kids to associate with you either, because what kind of comments are you making, to them or around them?

You know, I had another parent that there was a meeting one day after school and I, three of my boys were there. I brought them snacks, ‘cause there was going to be this meeting. I'm very aware of, I don't want them to create a mess. I brought a bag so that they could put their trash in, and at the end of the meeting there was some wrappers left on the floor and it wasn't my kids' wrappers, ‘cause I made it clear to them, you pick up after yourself, here's your bag.

So I was approached by this privileged parent, like you need to pick up your mess that your kids left. It's like my kids weren't the only ones there. Why are my kids the ones that you're assuming left that mess? Because they're the Brown kids? Cause they were the only Brown kids? And why can't you just pick it up yourself? So why would I want my kid around you at your house or your event when you're already treating them like that?

Courtney: And making those assumptions about my parenting. Also.

Andrew: There are plenty of people not doing it right. Figuring out how to build community, build trusting relationships. What does that look like? What's the difference between people who are doing it better?

Vicky: I think being thoughtful about the process. So if there's a day that goes by and you did something and you sit back and you think, did I do the right thing?

Or they said something, or why did they say something? And you reflect on. Whatever that was and change from there, or make sure it doesn't happen again. Then I think that makes a difference, but I think some people just don't, like they're on this path where they're the right way, and, and they're going to stick to it.

So earlier this year, um, I was a part of the PTA at my children's school. I still am, but I'm no longer a board member after 9 years. We had this fundraiser many years ago because our library is super old. It's also like underground basement style. So a lot of the books had mold. And so we raised a lot of money to rebuild this, this library, you know, revamp it, bring in new books.

We had, we held many fundraisers. We had many ideas. We spoke over what was going to happen so many times. The president at the time came across a grant from this company that would come in and bring 1300 new titles and they would paint murals and they would provide some furniture and stuff like that.

So that was great on top of what we had budgeted. Right. So we applied for this grant. We got it. And we started thinking of what things would be coming up on the wall. Like I said, this was over a year in the making. So came the day when they're coming to paint and bring the books. And, you know, we have at least 60 volunteers, murals are being painted and there's this one mural that was decided in specifically by the principal, because he thought it was like a nurturing book.

It was “The Giving Tree.” He picked this book because he felt the relationship was like of, of a mother and child. On the other hand, I thought it was this little White kid taking advantage of a Brown tree and just milking it for all. It goes time and time again. And the Brown tree just kept giving and giving and giving.

This is not a book I own. And I never read to my kids because I really didn't care for it. I didn't think that was a good example for me and my kids. Anyway, this mural was put up. This character is. Non-color right. It's just a sketch. A parent decided there wasn't enough color in all the other murals and mind you, there was a whole wall.

I don't know how big the wall is, but in the hallway of a Frida Khalo, it was just her face. And so the parent decided that this little boy in “The Giving Tree,” she was going to paint Brown because that would bring more diversity to the murals that were being painted. But this parent had not been to any meanings or had not had any input before had not even asked those of us that were running this event, painted over it.

Yeah, she Brown-faced a literary character because that was really going to change the outcome of the book. I mean, how ironic.

Andrew: That the, that story sort of perfectly captures much. I think because, I mean, I can just imagine that person feeling like, Oh man, here I am volunteering at this poor school that needs my help.

And like, look at all these White kids on the walls. I'm like, so tuned into my sort of social justice side. I'm so woke. I'm going to turn this White kid Brown because that'll be better, but never stopping to say like, Oh, I wonder what anybody else thinks about it.

Vicky: And the two parents that were discussing this, both of them think they're so woke because they have children that are adopted, that are biracial.

So I think they felt in thought while my kid is that, so I can speak up for them and they need to see more color. Not considering what many of us, the time that we put into it. Yeah. That was infuriating when I was made aware of it and I processed it more. I decided to say something, even though I was told that or warned that maybe I shouldn't, because my child might be paying the consequences for me speaking up.

Because that parent that actually did paint it, her child is in my son's class and that class has a lot of privilege. So I thought about it and I decided at that point, it wasn't worth staying quiet because I already felt like there was, um, some, some things that he was already paying the price for, because I had been speaking up, I had been saying things.

So I said something and interestingly enough, the way I said it was on an email, because from the same group of people, they created this “equity”... I call it “The Saviors,” but it's a group of parents

Courtney: they don’t call themselves that.

Vicky: They don't call themselves “The Saviors,” but that's what I call them because it's

Andrew: An Equity Justice League!

Vicky: Yes. So these group of parents decided that there was such a need for so many things in our school and our community that they wanted to help, which is great. However, they decided that they were going to meet in this bar. That's like the number one breaking ground for gentrification in my community. As soon as you saw the name of that bar, you said, no you can't because you don't know where you're at, what you're doing, who you're dealing with.

If that's where you're going to meet. That's number one. Somehow somebody may have brought it to their attention thankfully, and they changed that around. Okay. So then, um, people started giving input and finally there was a meeting set and people showed up to this meeting. Not everybody, just some people, they had all these ideas, like one of them was how to bring like health resources to the school because to be a volunteer, you have to have had a TB clearance. And so god forbid we Brown people don't know how to go to the doctor and get a TB shot and then get it read. So the school nurse that has already tapped out on time or days at the school should have to read everybody's TB.

Again, this is not a new thing for LAUSD. We've been doing this for a while. We know where the free clinic is to get TBs. How about just provide that information. It's kind of like. Did you want to bring this? Or do you want to bring this? Because you're concerned that we don't know how to find it, or because you're concerned that we're not healthy to be around you?

Because it wasn't just TB. It was like, let's do these other screenings. Why?

Courtney: Have you asked what people in the school want or have you decided what people in this school need?

Vicky: Right, exactly. We can always use resources. Absolutely. But how about there's a clinic that I used to go to when I was a child here, I just thought the whole thing was wrong.

That was, that was one of the things. Oh. And then there was a thing of, of like dressing people better. So they suggested hand me downs, like gently used clothes that we no longer needed or wanted and putting them in boxes and donating them to those needy kids because, you know, they need to dress better.

How do you do these things without hurting someone's feelings as a child? Like. My school needs to give me this because I don't have it. And do you not have it? And how do you know who has it? Who doesn't have it? You're giving your clothes and you know what your clothes are like, or your son or daughter, and then somebody else is wearing them.

Then they're going to go make fun of that kid. All look, you're wearing my old clothes. They need that. Because some of these kids are like that. Yeah. But you're adding to that. You're contributing. Why would you want to do that? There are these resources. And again, give those resources to the coordinator, to the people at school that handle those things and that know how to distribute them when needed.

There've been times when I get extra backpacks, you know, from resource centers around here, that my kids get them and they don't need them, but I'll take them and I'll go donate them to the school and they know who to give them to. And I don't need to know anything.

Andrew: Right. In a respectful and

Courtney: anonymous way.

Andrew: Yeah.

Courtney: I mean, I think there's an interesting, like, difficult to navigate space because there are actual needs that are very real, right? But at the same time, assuming that everyone has this need is also incredibly patronizing.

Vicky: Exactly

Andrew: or that you're the only one who knows how to solve that or fix that.

Vicky: It’s a problem. Yeah, that's right. So in the same thing, they clumped together homeless and foster kids. And here's one of the parents that's very privileged said, why are homeless kids and foster kids together? We were foster parents and have since adopted our daughter and generally foster kids are placed with families who have the means to take care of them.

The foster kids families have different issues than homeless families. That's the thing that in this community, if you really knew, or if you didn't have that amount of privilege, you would know that a lot of us, that foster, is not because we have that privilege is because we had that need. It's our nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters.

It's not, I need to go take care of a kid and I'm going to just, I have the means to, so I'm going to, so those needs are not different. In this community, they could be the same.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. And if you walk in with your privileged view of the world, I fostered a kid. I have plenty of resources. Therefore, all foster kids are doing just fine and don't bother having the conversation.

Don't bother asking. Some of it to me seems like the, the root of the problem is, we talked about this a little bit on I think the Hagerman episode 3 podcast, we talk about social capital in a very White centric way that, you know, people with privilege, White people with money, have political connections.

We talk about that and, and like terms of what social capital means we don't ever talk about the social capital that an existing community has. If you walk into a community that exists, there are plenty of people in that community who know about that community, who know what people in that community need, who know where the resources are, and it's not like the community is, uh, falling apart.

And so there clearly are people in those communities who know how the community functions, and if you walk in and respect the natural expertise that exists in the community, then your desire to help can actually be leveraged to help. Now you can say, here's what I bring to the table. Here's what you bring to the table.

Is there a way to the benefits that I have accrued over the course of my life? Can I contribute those in some way? And if you show up and you say, Listen, I know how to fix everything here. Then, not only do you end up not fixing the problems that actually need to be fixed, but you also end up alienating the people who you in theory want to help in the first place.

Vicky: Exactly.

Courtney: And, and I feel like for that situation, you know, that parent was defining the problem in a way that was not real, right? Like foster kids look like this. Foster families look like this, homeless kids are like this.

Vicky: Exactly.

Courtney: And that parent didn't know that there might be other foster situations because it was just defined in this very narrow, kind of myopic way, because they had been a foster parent. So therefore I could speak to all foster situations.

Vicky: Yeah. And thinking about that, maybe like, it seems like these people feed off of each other and only hang out with each other because I'm only going to be with “likeminded people.” Right. Because if you're going to tell me I'm doing something shitty, or maybe I shouldn't be doing that, I'm not going to like you, I'm not going to hang out with you. You're outside of my comfort zone,

Courtney: Ah, the comfort zone.

Vicky: That's another thing, maybe reevaluate your friendships, maybe every once in a while. Go look outside of your comfort zone and don't speak. Just listen and see.

Andrew: It comes back to this like idea of going in and earning trust and exactly in your sort of peer group of likeminded people. You don't have to put in much work to earning trust. You walk into that space with the assumption that you are going to be good. And the benefit of the doubt that you're going to be trusted, that you are going to be able to just hand your kids off to somebody else or whatever it is.

But you have to, you have to do more work. It's harder to go in and actually earn trust and earn the right to be given the trust.

Vicky: Yes.

Because some of these parents spend all day at school. I want to save you, but I want to hoard all the resources for my kid. And so this particular class for my son, we have theater at school and his class has had it every year because we need to hoard these resources for us. But yet there are other classes that haven't had it once and these resources should be for every child at the school.

So there's a drama or theater teacher. Why is she only working with some certain classrooms? I don't know. That's something that the administration should definitely look, should look into, because it's not paid by this classroom, it is paid by the district for the whole school for everybody. It was brought to the principal's attention and it was kind of like, well, I don't know.

I'll talk to the teacher instead of, yeah, I should be doing something about it because it should be equitable. Everybody should have it. And not just my kid year after year. Is it great that he has it? Absolutely. But why? Why can't other kids take advantage of this? Why do we need to hoard the resources? So it's the same people that want to save us, because we don't know any better, that wants to come in with other influences.

And this is what I'm bringing, regardless of what you want or say, or think or need. But I want everything from my child.

Courtney: I want to save you without having to give up anything, right? Yeah.

Vicky: Um, back to when I replied to the email about the painting with this equitable, or “savior group,” uh, I showed up to the meeting.

Everybody introduced themselves. I took the longest to introduce myself. I was really frustrated and I was upset and I was, I was very honest. I said, like, who asked you for help? Who asked you for this help? What nothing? They didn't say anything. And when I said about the dress again, they didn't say anything like our kids dress better than yours.

And I pointed out that like, wealth, for us isn’t measured by, you know, how many outfits you have, it's by, you know, you know, we're happy 20 to, one room, a one bedroom place that's just comfort and normal for us. And we don't need all the things that you guys have and you think are okay, like there's a difference.

And you need to understand that. We go now to the mural of the painting and then this thread, because they're, so I reply to this thread and I say how I want to be part of a book club that would speak about how Brown-facing your character, Literary character doesn't change anything. And so the person coughed up to what they did and as shitty as it was and whatever, I mean, I appreciated the fact that, that she was able and willing to say I did it, and this is why I did it.

So I replied to that email and replied all. So everybody knew that yes, I was pissed and I was the one that made a big fuss of it. But I appreciated that she came out and said that she messed up. That's important to me. Then I met with her later on and had coffee and we discussed it a little more. And at the end of the day it was fixed.

So now that character that I really don't care about the color he's supposed to be, which in my opinion is White, but, okay.

Courtney: And do you feel like she was able to repair that relationship a little bit more?

Vicky: I think there was, uh, an attempt to, and you, maybe deep down they want to, but they still continue to do these things that like trying to save me and my kind.

And so it's not, you know, again, it's not standing there and looking at what you've done and what you continue to do and not doing that. You know, it continues to happen.

Andrew: I made the kid White again. So, um, I'm back to being woke.

Courtney: I think what's, what's interesting it's certainly something that I've struggled with a lot.

I get all the words that you're saying, right. Like, I understand the thing. I just don't know how to apply it to the moment that I'm in. Right? Like, I don't want to be a White savior. Got it. But I didn't realize that that applied to painting the mural or having a meeting at, you know, hipster bar, gentrification central, or, you know, like it's about applying these ideas.

In these micro moments of decision making that I think is really hard, right. For people who you know, are White and have privilege and are learning things.

Vicky: Right.

Andrew: I mean, to me it seems like the only way you get any better at that is through relationships. Yeah. Right. I mean, like, I feel like Vicky, hearing you say these things,

It's immediately clear what the problem is with them, but if I say them to myself in my head, sort of, without you in mind, it's like, Oh yeah, maybe that isn't such a bad idea, you know? And so it seems, it seems like the only way you do a moderately better job of it is if, when you have these ideas, when you start thinking about how you want to contribute, how you want to participate is you've got to have some relationship with somebody who's not like you. You have to build some trust. You have to have some, some ability to hear what you're thinking through the mind of somebody who's not like you. And that, I mean, that seems to me like where the real work is. And that's why I feel like the hope of Integrated Schools is in the generational work of it, because it's really hard for somebody to do that who's never had a meaningful relationship with somebody who's different from them. It's much easier for my kids to do. It'll be easier for their kids to do.

Vicky: I, um, have been part, like I said, at the PTA for a long time and people have come and gone. I've stayed on board because I'm not the voice for all people in my community, but I want to say as much as I can to make people understand and see, hopefully also I don't want to be in a school where I don't feel like I don't want to be there.

It's so bad. It's like, if it's that bad, then I want to make something, to do something about it. And it's not a bad school. I'm just saying that's my mentality. And that's why I get involved with things. So everybody has been different throughout the years. And at first maybe I don't get along with people and I don't understand them, you know, they're White and they grew up differently than I did in different parts of the United States than I did.

But throughout the years, you get to know these people and you realize that. You can be friends and despite of what color, race, gender, you have things in common or you don't, and you can be okay. The first time I met this one parent that I thought was on crack because she just moved too fast and jittered, and, but then I realized that wasn't true.

It's just her crazy metabolism. And now I could call her one of my dear friends, but I let that into my world. I let that happen. I didn't say you're different and I don't want to deal with you. And it doesn't matter that we don't always see eye to eye. That's just what makes a relationship.

Andrew: I mean, I, I feel like those relationships then end up being so much more, if you can put in the time and you can put in the work and you can get through the initial discomfort of the fact that it's work, then what comes out the other side is actually a much more meaningful and positive relationship.

Vicky: Totally.

Courtney: You brought up the subject of how people dress and you also said that you kids dress better than the White and privileged kids. Talk about that just a little bit.

Vicky: I don't know, from what I've seen is that they let their kids dress themselves and they don't want to, is it to kill their ego or self esteem.

So whatever they decide to wear, they let them like, if they want to brush their hair, go for it. If not, Oh, well, I was brought up very differently. It's like, You know, when you go to the doctors, when you go to school, you have to dress in a manner. It shows how you're going to treat that. And so you're going to respect, like, you're going to respect the doctor, you're going to respect the courthouse and you're going to respect education.

And so you take the time to do your hair and to wear nice decent clothes. One point when my kids started, I used to iron their t-shirts because they couldn't go with wrinkled T-shirts to school. That was just not okay. And then these kids would roll out of their cars and literally their pajamas with bedhead.

And it was hard. It was hard for me to, you're not to not go grab a brush and brush some kids hair. It really was.

Andrew: To protect their fragile creativity.

Vicky: Exactly. Yeah. I don't know. Something like that.

Courtney: But what I think is super fascinating about this also is the privilege of being able to send my White kid, can show up with toothpaste on her shirt and nobody is gonna think that she doesn't belong in the eagle readers group.

Vicky: Exactly. Yeah, because they're already there. They already have it, but my kid has to prove that they're going to be respectful and that they should have a spot and they're going to earn it and get that same respect.

Courtney: And ironing the tee shirts is one way to get there, but I don't have to as a White parent. And so then, like the donation of clothes just takes on this whole other disgusting, ironic sort of twist.

Vicky: Right.

Courtney: She was like, of all people I don't want your dirty ass pajamas!

Vicky: Again. Like, I don't know how anybody thought, like this was a good idea.

It's a roadmap of how I can save you. It's sad and infuriating at the same time. Like what if the tables were turned? What have you were to see a spreadsheet that said how to dress your kids, how to not raise them to be dinosaurs, how to clean in your house.

Courtney: or the Mexican moms guide to how to deal with the White people.

Andrew: How to save the White people

Courtney: How to fix the White people.

Andrew: Yeah. For first of all, first of all, brush your kids' hair.

Vicky: Yes. Brush your kids' hair, or cut it. Buzz cut. And, discipline. Like how to discipline your kids. Like. Your kid is special. Yes. All kids are, but guess what?

Sometimes they're just kids and sometimes they're little assholes, like that's the reality. And so sometimes you need to tell them no, and that's okay. It's not going to kill them. They'll get over it.

Andrew: I mean, I would argue it's the only thing that's going to keep them from ruining their own lives.

Vicky: Yeah. That might actually keep them out of jail.

Andrew: Right. That's yeah. Having your White kid in your Brown boys class might keep the White kid out of jail because they might see some form of parenting that involves some rules and boundaries.

Vicky: Exactly.

Courtney: Do you find that to be an issue?

Vicky: What? Privilege White people not giving their kids boundaries or?

Courtney: yeah.

Vicky: Uh, yes, absolutely. I see it a lot. Again, it's like we're letting them develop and become who they need to be and who they want to be. And we're not inhibiting that we're not limiting them. We're not, you know, creating boundaries. They can do what they want as they want, because they're just developing into their best self.

And I say, that there's just like when you're driving, that's why there's lines around, right? Yeah. Like you have to stay within those lines. You have to create boundaries. You gotta say when, you gotta say no, and enough is enough. My oldest is very fabulous and he loves cheer. He does cheer and he loves it.

Like this is his world. And last year he had someone on his squad that just didn't care very much about it. And you know, they're in middle school, that's understandable, but he wants to be focused and organized and he wants to make that the best he can. So there was an incident where she just wanted to change things around and do whatever and didn't care.

And he was really upset by it because he had reached his breaking point with her. And what, how careless she is about this particular thing that he cares so much about. So he, went off on her, which I was shocked to hear, to find out after that he'd completely like, I think he even, I mean, he called her the B-word.

She made him lose his bananas. After I spoke to him and I told him, I get why you did it, but it still wasn't okay? And you still need to watch what you're saying. You still need to watch what you're doing, why? Because you're Brown and you're going to get in trouble for doing those things a lot more than so-and-so, because they're not Brown and it's not okay. And you're tall and you're this and you're that it's like, that's when it really became apparent to me. Not that it hasn't, but at that moment there was just a flash of you don't have the privilege of getting angry and blowing it off or blow or, or telling somebody like that because you're Brown, because you're going to get in trouble and they're not, and it doesn't matter what they did. You're going to pay the price.

Courtney: And so then you see how these White kids around your kids treat the world and there, they just have access to their own anger, in a way that you don't feel like your kids do.

Vicky: Yeah, they do. They definitely do. And like even my nine year old has told me, well, why does so and so get to do that?

And I say, I don't know. I don't want to tell them “why? because they're White.” and now I'm starting to tell him to see this as privilege. But the younger ones, I don't want to say that yet. So my nine year old, I tell him, I don't know why they do, but you don't, and that's not how I'm raising you. So you need to be aware and you need to be mindful and respectful.

And it's unfortunate. And I don't want to raise them to be like, that there's all this White privilege, even though there is, because I'm hoping it will change sooner rather than later. And I'm hoping they won't have to see it so much, but they do see here and there and they pick up on it themselves.

Courtney: They do. Yeah, they do. And I think, you know, like at a classroom level, you know how my kid, my White kid shows up in the classroom matters. Right. Which, you know, it's like, we, we talk a lot about how parents show up matter, but also like how my kid shows up in that space and how respectful are they of that space versus how entitled are they to their own creative spirit or, you know, their own ego or light or whatever, the thousand of ways we want to talk about about it.

And it's, it's hard, right? We're also talking about like six year olds or whatever, and these are, I think, hard conversations, but I think they're important ones because it matters. Right, right. If my daughter shows up in the same classroom and says “I don't want to read that book, that book's not interesting.” So therefore I'm, I'm doing my own thing and feels entitled to say that in a space, feels different. Have you thought about that a lot, Andrew?

Andrew: I haven't really thought about it so much from the kids' standpoint. I think that's interesting. I mean, like you said, Vicky, like how much of it do you want to put on your kids at what age, but yeah, you're right.

I mean, it's, it's important how we show up is important in all, in all spaces and for all of us, I think the hope is that my kids do a better job of it because of the relationships they're making, but it probably requires some, some real explicit conversations as well. It comes back to me at least that what I think of is like the benefits to my kids and to my family of being in those spaces, because then there's the opportunity to have the conversation about it because the shit is real, no matter what, but the sooner my kids can talk about it in a meaningful way, the sooner we have the opportunity to engage with these topics, the more likely they are to see how it appears in their broader lives as they get older.

Courtney: And I'm just going to say also, it's not about these topics. It's about my friends, you know, it's like the people we care about.

Andrew: Right.

Courtney: You know, it's not like the topic of racism and we have used this board book to illustrate, and I think those are important. And I don't mean to, to minimize the value of doing that work and having those conversations.

But when you're actually talking about a kid that you love and know, and a family, or, you know, whatever it is. It's a whole different relationship to the “topic.” If you don't have those, it's just a topic.

Andrew: Yeah, it's a, it's an intellectual exercise, not an emotional response to seeing somebody who you, you know, about their humanity. You know who they are as a person. And you see the injustice, that is how you generate the will to change and intellectually understanding that there is something called White privilege that generates saviorism that generates, Oh. There is something called White privilege. I've got it. Let me go put it to use, to fix Vicky's world because clearly her world must be a mess because she is not White like me. So I know how to fix it for her.

Courtney: I would love to hear things that you would like. White and or privileged parents who are stepping into global majority schools, what do you want them to know?

Vicky: How about to be aware and recognize that it's existed before you, and so obviously something worked. Is there room for improvement? Yeah, I'm sure there is, but look at it. Ask. Be involved. Be a part of it before you want to just change it and is making it your own a part of the community? Does that encompass everybody?

Courtney: Because things can be wonderful and not look like White and/or privileged, segregated schools. Also.

Vicky: Exactly. You could have so many degrees and be so smart because I hear that all the time. How, how many degrees people have. That doesn't make you smart. That just means you have a piece of paper that you completed X, Y, and Z. Some of the smartest people don't have any degrees because they were too smart.

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Andrew: So I have to say Courtney, I would have never thought of The Giving Tree as a book about race. I've read that book like a million times and it never occurred to me. And I guess that's a privilege,

Courtney: Right? I kind of hate that book. Um, not because the child was White, it was just kind of too damn sad and the tree and all these other things, but you know the point is, right, that I have a privilege of being able to read things in that way. And you know, like with how Vicky was talking about clothing and the privilege of slovenliness.

Andrew: Right, right.

Courtney: I think there are things. These are the moments, these tiny little moments that are actually quite momentous that we need to hold on to and, and be considerate about.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. Even if we know that intellectually we have privilege, Vicky is just like a great resource to help us see where it shows up in everyday encounters that we might not otherwise see it. You know, I feel like it can be hard to listen to sometimes, but that's part of the work. It's probably the most important part of the work because you know, if you do it, if you listen, if you think about your impact, if you don't sit back and rest on the laurels of your intent, I think you actually can have your cake and eat it too. You know, you can, you can become a part of the community. You can share what you have to offer and you can build relationships that are deep and meaningful.

Courtney: Yeah. And that we can have these conversations, like with Vicky, like in our communities, like that's where I see hope and that we can traverse these spaces even when we stumble and slip and fall and try to get back up again.

These are where we have, I hope so this isn't about the easy, but about the meaningful and challenging.

Andrew: Yeah. And, you know, speaking of great conversations, we've received some awesome voice memos from you, our listeners.

Bryce: Hi, I'm Bryce. I'm a White dad in Richmond, Virginia, my wife and I have a second grader at our local integrating school and two preschoolers on their way. We got involved in our local school because it's four blocks from our house and it feels like the right thing to do. And it's actually the school that I went to when I was growing up. And it hasn't changed that much since then, we get really sad in our neighborhood every morning. People walk from their door to their car and head off in a different direction. We just think a lot about what an amazing community we would have, if we all went to the school nearby, going to school with kids of all different backgrounds, benefits everyone.

Andrew: I couldn't agree more Bryce. Thanks for sending that in. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being part of the Integrated Schools Community.

We want to hear from the rest of you, send us your voice memos - hello@integratedschools.org. Find us on social media @integratedschools and if you're enjoying the podcast, consider going to Integratedschools.org and donating 20 bucks, 200 bucks as an all volunteer organization, every bit helps.

Courtney: Yeah.

Thanks to everyone who has emailed, rated, reviewed. We are really grateful for your feedback. It means a lot, and we're happy to be in this with you all, as we try to know better and do better.

Andrew: See you next time.

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